History Main / BothSidesHaveAPoint

21st Aug '17 4:24:15 PM MagBas
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* A lot of Creator/HayaoMiyazaki's films are based on this kind of premise. He dislikes the limiting assumptions of a lot of conventional media that evil exists and must be defeated by good. In ''Anime/PrincessMononoke'' for example every character has a reasonable explanation and motivation for their actions. San is harsh and violent - but only wants to protect her home, family and the natural world. Eboshi wants to kill the god of the forest - but is a benevolent leader, good to her people and kind to lepers and you can fully see why her people are willing to die for her. The protagonist Ashitaka is [[TrueNeutral completely neutral]] and genuinely wants the best for everyone. Even if the consequences of their choices are ultimately negative, you can see why they did it.

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* A lot of Creator/HayaoMiyazaki's films are based on this kind of premise. He dislikes the limiting assumptions of a lot of conventional media that evil exists and must be defeated by good. In ''Anime/PrincessMononoke'' for example every character has a reasonable explanation and motivation for their actions. San is harsh and violent - but only wants to protect her home, family and the natural world. Eboshi wants to kill the god of the forest - but is a benevolent leader, good to her people and kind to lepers and you can fully see why her people are willing to die for her. The protagonist Ashitaka is [[TrueNeutral completely neutral]] neutral and genuinely wants the best for everyone. Even if the consequences of their choices are ultimately negative, you can see why they did it.
12th Aug '17 3:07:26 PM LinTaylor
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** WordOfGod also did this in "The Cartridge Family", giving both sides of the American gun control debate sensible arguments, saying the episode's overall message is that irresponsible idiots like Homer (even his fellow gun nuts think he's crazy) should be forbidden from owning guns.

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** WordOfGod also did this in "The Cartridge Family", giving Family" does this with the gun ownership debate. On the one side we have Marge, who doesn't want the Simpsons to own a gun because of how dangerous they can be; on the other we have the NRA, who argue that there are valid reasons to own one, like hunting and protecting one's family. However, the point they both sides of the American gun control debate sensible arguments, saying the episode's overall message agree upon is that irresponsible idiots like Homer (even his fellow gun nuts think he's crazy) guns are deadly weapons that should only be forbidden from owning guns.handled by responsible owners; Homer demonstrates an '''insanely''' flagrant disregard for even the most basic forms of gun safety, which drives Marge away and gets him kicked out of the NRA.
10th Aug '17 2:27:50 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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*** Behind it all lies the [[AntiHumanAlliance Aldmeri Dominion]], led by the extremist [[ANaziByAnyOtherName Thalmor]], who are pulling the strings behind the scenes and may have even been responsible for ''instigating'' the civil war. They hope to weaken the Empire by depriving it of its strongest remaining province while bleeding both sides dry for an eventual Dominion takeover. There is even evidence that they [[spoiler:tortured and brainwashed Ulfric Stormcloak as a prisoner in the waning days of the Great War and then unleashed him to accomplish exactly this task. (However, they may have underestimated Ulfric's leadership and inspirational abilities, as he quickly proved to be more effective than intended...)]] Both sides of the civil war agree that the Dominion is the BiggerBad, but are odds over the best way to deal with them.

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*** Behind it all lies the [[AntiHumanAlliance Aldmeri Dominion]], led by the extremist [[ANaziByAnyOtherName Thalmor]], who are pulling the strings behind the scenes and may have even been responsible for ''instigating'' the civil war. They hope to weaken the Empire by depriving it of its strongest remaining province while bleeding both sides dry for an eventual Dominion takeover. There is even evidence that they [[spoiler:tortured and brainwashed Ulfric Stormcloak as a prisoner in the waning days of the Great War and then unleashed him to accomplish exactly this task. (However, they may have underestimated Ulfric's leadership and inspirational abilities, as he quickly proved to be more effective than intended...)]] Both sides of the civil war agree that the Dominion is the BiggerBad, greater threat, but are odds over the best way to deal with them.
26th Jul '17 1:38:41 AM Nintendoman01
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* ''Literature/TheBerensteinBears'': In the novel ''The Berenstein Bear Scouts and the Sinister Smoke Ring'', Farmer Ben is annoyed at a group of anti-smoking protestors, who vehemently oppose him growing tobacco plants on his farm, and insists that they have no right to protest on his property, while ''they'' insist he has no right to grow such a "filthy weed." In the end, the police diffuse the situation using this trope, pointing out that while Ben is right that they have no right to protest on his property, they can do so all they want on the street away from it. On the protestors' end, the police also agree with them that SmokingIsNotCool, but point out that tobacco is a legal crop, and Ben has every right to grow it on his farm if he wants.

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* ''Literature/TheBerensteinBears'': ''Literature/TheBerenstainBears'': In the novel ''The Berenstein Bear Scouts and the Sinister Smoke Ring'', Farmer Ben is annoyed at a group of anti-smoking protestors, who vehemently oppose him growing tobacco plants on his farm, and insists that they have no right to protest on his property, while ''they'' insist he has no right to grow such a "filthy weed." In the end, the police diffuse the situation using this trope, pointing out that while Ben is right that they have no right to protest on his property, they can do so all they want on the street away from it. On the protestors' end, the police also agree with them that SmokingIsNotCool, but point out that tobacco is a legal crop, and Ben has every right to grow it on his farm if he wants.
19th Jul '17 6:18:46 PM rva98014
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*** Likewise, Cap tears into Tony for keeping Wanda under what is essentially house arrest without even telling her, and while Tony's motivations and right to make that call are left dubious, he is right when he says Wanda ''really'' isn't safe amongst the masses right now.
*** Lastly, while Tony was a complete jerk in goading Spider-Man into the conflict, he ''does'' order Peter to keep his distance and just web up his opponents, which Peter ignores. His first scene even depicts him being guilt-shamed by the mother of a Sokovian victim and he presents this to the Avengers as why he thinks they, himself included, need to be kept in check. Tony doesn't start acting irrational until [[MagnificentBastard Zemo's]] schemes ruin any chance of reconciliation between the two sides.

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*** Likewise, Cap tears into Tony for keeping Wanda under what is essentially house arrest without even telling her, and while Tony's motivations and right to make that call are left dubious, he is right when he says Wanda ''really'' isn't safe amongst among the masses right now.
*** Lastly, while Tony was a complete jerk could be seen as irresponsible in goading Spider-Man bringing Spider-Man, who's still an inexperienced teenager, into the conflict, he ''does'' order his orders were for Peter to keep his distance and just web up his opponents, opponents without becoming involved, which Peter promptly ignores. His first scene even depicts him being guilt-shamed by the mother of a Sokovian victim and he presents this to the Avengers as why he thinks they, himself included, need to be kept in check. Tony doesn't start acting irrational until [[MagnificentBastard Zemo's]] schemes ruin any chance of reconciliation between the two sides.
12th Jul '17 11:28:37 AM Premonition45
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** In the episode "The PTA Disbands" when Principal Skinner and Mrs. Krabappel are trying to convince the parents at a PTA meeting of their respective positions. Mrs. Krabappel argues that Skinner's budget cuts are harming the education the parents' children are receiving, and that they need the resources to do their job. The parents are inclined to agree with her until Skinner points out that the school is on a very tight budget as it is, and for the school administration to get what the teachers are asking for they'd have to raise the parents' taxes. That gets the parents complaining about taxes being high enough as it is, and the debate between Skinner's and Krabappel's positions ends up going back and forth. The episode ends by Skinner and Krabappel deciding to TakeAThirdOption and rent out the school's cloakrooms to the prison system to raise extra money, although the writers don't provide an answer to the taxes vs. education quality debate.

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** In the episode "The PTA Disbands" when Principal Skinner and Mrs. Krabappel are trying to convince the parents at a PTA meeting of their respective positions. Mrs. Krabappel argues that Skinner's budget cuts are harming the education the parents' children are receiving, and that they need the resources to do their job. The parents are inclined to agree with her until Skinner points out that the school is on a very tight budget as it is, and for the school administration to get what the teachers are asking for they'd have to raise the parents' taxes. That gets the parents complaining about taxes being high enough as it is, and the debate between Skinner's and Krabappel's positions ends up going back and forth. The episode ends by Skinner and Krabappel deciding to TakeAThirdOption and rent out the school's cloakrooms to the prison system to raise extra money, although the writers don't provide an answer to the taxes vs. education quality debate.


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** "Itchy and Scratchy and Marge" very notably doesn't take a side on the issue of whether censorship is good or bad (but it does have the moral of "Be prepared for consequences, hypocrisy, and opposing viewpoints if you choose to stand up for a cause."). Sure, Roger Meyers is a scumbag who doesn't care if his shows influence kids to hurt themselves and others, but he's just a man trying to entertain others. Sure, SNUH is a bunch of MoralGuardians who want to censor even masterpieces for offending their conservative housewife sensibilities, but they're kind of right in that kids should be exposed to real art and not just pop culture trash.
11th Jul '17 11:18:24 AM skotavatar
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* The two rival families of ''Literature/DanceoftheButterfly'' work for, ostensibly, the same goal, though they have some vastly different methods of achieving it. Though it may be simple to categorize the Malkuths as evil, they put forward their methods as being ultimately utilitarian and thus for the greater good. Just don't get in their way as they try to save you.
10th Jul '17 9:05:13 AM Nintendoman01
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** Wolverine is correct that Cyclops' new, militant approach to the mutant race's survival goes against what Xavier intended for the X-men, and that he seems to have forgotten that the X-men were supposed to be teachers and educators for mutants. There's a reason practically half of the teaching staff abandons Utopia so as to be able to go back to being teachers, not defenders.
** However, Cyclops is ''also'' correct in his points, and his points arguably have a lot more weight to them. The X-men are living in a world that is more hostile towards mutants than it ever was whilst Xavier was alive, and with barely 200 mutants alive on Earth at the present, they ''need'' to be able to pull together and make humans see they won't just roll over and die to any bigots who comes knocking. It's telling that many of the students choose to remain with Cyclops, pointing out to their Wolverine-siding fellows that A: more students ''died'' in the Xavier Institute than have ever died on Utopia, and B: they are living in a world where FantasticRacism [[WouldHurtAChild overrules any concept of kids as non-targets in a racial war]]. As the spokesperson for the Cyclops-loyalists so eloquently puts it, the second a mutant's X-gene activates, they ''stop'' being a kid and start being a ''target'' for every anti-mutant bigot in a world crawling with them. And if one must be a target, then better to be a target who can shoot back.

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** Wolverine is correct that Cyclops' new, militant approach to the mutant race's survival goes against what Xavier intended for the X-men, X-Men, and that he seems to have forgotten that the X-men were supposed to be teachers and educators for mutants. There's a reason practically half of the teaching staff abandons Utopia so as to be able to go back to being teachers, not defenders.
** However, Cyclops is ''also'' correct in his points, and his points arguably have a lot more weight to them. The X-men are living in a world that is more hostile towards mutants than it ever was whilst Xavier was alive, and with barely 200 mutants alive on Earth at the present, they ''need'' to be able to pull together and make humans see they won't just roll over and die to any bigots who comes come knocking. It's telling that many of the students choose to remain with Cyclops, pointing out to their Wolverine-siding fellows that A: more students ''died'' in the Xavier Institute than have ever died on Utopia, and B: they are living in a world where FantasticRacism [[WouldHurtAChild overrules any concept of kids as non-targets in a racial war]]. As the spokesperson for the Cyclops-loyalists so eloquently puts it, the second a mutant's X-gene activates, they ''stop'' being a kid and start being a ''target'' for every anti-mutant bigot in a world crawling with them. And if one must be a target, then better to be a target who can shoot back.



[[folder:Film]]

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[[folder:Film]][[folder:Films - Animation]]
* The main conflict of ''WesternAnimation/SupermanVsTheElite''. Superman adamantly sticks to his ThouShaltNotKill policy even as the Elite gains public support for killing the bad guys, and when the Elite later declare that ''they'' decide who the villains are, and that "people who endanger innocent lives" can apply to more than just criminals and terrorists, it shows how the Elite's methods can lead to JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope and HeWhoFightsMonsters territory. On the other hand, the Elite believe their way is better since Superman just beating up criminals and having them thrown in [[CardboardPrison improper prisons]] leads to JokerImmunity and allows villains like the Atomic Skull to just keep killing.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Films - Live Action]]


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* ''Series/HowIMetYourMother'': In the episode "How Lily Stole Christmas," Ted and Lily get into a major spat when Lily finds out that Ted called her a "[[CountryMatters Grinch]]" for calling off her engagement to Marshall in order to pursue an art fellowship in San Francisco. While Lily is justifiably angry for Ted calling her that, as well as for him secretly holding a grudge against her for her actions and refusing to apologize, Ted is also right to be angry, since Lily's abrupt departure and lack of contact also hurt him and the other people in Marshall's life, and she never apologized to him for leaving.
27th Jun '17 1:41:09 AM Nintendoman01
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* ''Literature/TheBerensteinBears'': In the novel ''The Berenstein Bear Scouts and the Sinister Smoke Ring'', Farmer Ben is annoyed at a group of anti-smoking protestors, who vehemently oppose him growing tobacco plants on his farm, and insists that they have no right to protest on his property, while ''they'' insist he has no right to grow such a "filthy weed." In the end, the police diffuse the situation using this trope, pointing out that while Ben is right that they have no right to protest on his property, they can do so all they want on the street away from it. On the protestors' end, the police also agree with them that SmokingIsNotCool, but point out that tobacco is a legal crop, and Ben has every right to grow it on his farm if he wants.
27th Jun '17 1:28:52 AM Nintendoman01
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* ''Film/TheAmazingSpiderMan2'': Harry Osborn is suffering from a terminal disease, and wants Spider-Man's blood, believing it to be his only hope of survival; however, Spider-Man refuses, believing it might harm or kill him, or even turn Harry into a monster like the Lizard. While Spidey makes a valid point, Harry also does when he points out to Spidey that he's already dying, so he's got nothing to lose either way.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.BothSidesHaveAPoint