History Main / AlwaysChaoticEvil

6th Feb '16 6:23:35 AM Argon2
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See also WhatMeasureIsANonHuman, HardCodedHostility, MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch, {{Dehumanization}}, and ScaryDogmaticAliens. Compare LawfulStupidChaoticStupid. Contrast AlwaysLawfulGood. Should not be confused with ChaoticEvil.
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See also WhatMeasureIsANonHuman, HardCodedHostility, MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch, {{Dehumanization}}, and ScaryDogmaticAliens. If the trope's subjects are a distinct ''species'' as opposed to an ethnicity, their reasons for being this may be BlueAndOrangeMorality. Compare LawfulStupidChaoticStupid. Contrast AlwaysLawfulGood. Should not be confused with ChaoticEvil.
2nd Feb '16 4:55:18 AM MagBas
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natter
** One problem of the specific AlwaysChaoticEvil types of monsters is that they are almost always described as being this way to everyone, even each other, including their own family members! Most historical cultures in the real world that committed atrocities had some level of morality with their own cultures and families, and justified their acts as being acceptable against "others". D&D's morality system allows for breaks from alignment in the temporary sense of "having a bad day" or the like, but doesn't really allow for evil humanoids that treat each other with decency and compassion. This is especially a problem with actual Chaotic Evil races, as they would likely not be able to develop in groups more than a handful of creatures. The rulebooks occasionally reference this saying that it usually takes a warleader of some kind. Even still, there shouldn't be nearly the amount of numbers of orcs, goblins, etc. as there are described in the game because they would eventually kill each other off with relentless backstabbing. It's also amusing to see the books try to handwave armies of demons as saying they're under the control of powerful demon lords....who are also supposed to be Chaotic Evil and thus would not make effective planners or leaders.
1st Feb '16 7:55:39 PM lluewhyn
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** One problem of the specific AlwaysChaoticEvil types of monsters is that they are almost always described as being this way to everyone, even each other, including their own family members! Most historical cultures in the real world that committed atrocities had some level of morality with their own cultures and families, and justified their acts as being acceptable against "others". D&D's morality system allows for breaks from alignment in the temporary sense of "having a bad day" or the like, but doesn't really allow for evil humanoids that treat each other with decency and compassion. This is especially a problem with actual Chaotic Evil races, as they would likely not be able to develop in groups more than a handful of creatures. The rulebooks occasionally reference this saying that it usually takes a warleader of some kind. Even still, there shouldn't be nearly the amount of numbers of orcs, goblins, etc. as there are described in the game because they would eventually kill each other off with relentless backstabbing. It's also amusing to see the books try to handwave armies of demons as saying they're under the control of powerful demon lords....who are also supposed to be Chaotic Evil and thus would not make effective planners or leaders.
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** One problem of the specific AlwaysChaoticEvil types of monsters is that they are almost always described as being this way to everyone, even each other, including their own family members! Most historical cultures in the real world that committed atrocities had some level of morality with their own cultures and families, and justified their acts as being acceptable against "others". D&D's morality system allows for breaks from alignment in the temporary sense of "having a bad day" or the like, but doesn't really allow for evil humanoids that treat each other with decency and compassion. This is especially a problem with actual Chaotic Evil races, as they would likely not be able to develop in groups more than a handful of creatures. The rulebooks occasionally reference this saying that it usually takes a warleader of some kind. Even still, there shouldn't be nearly the amount of numbers of orcs, goblins, etc. as there are described in the game because they would eventually kill each other off with relentless backstabbing. It's also amusing to see the books try to handwave armies of demons as saying they're under the control of powerful demon lords....who are also supposed to be Chaotic Evil and thus would not make effective planners or leaders.
1st Feb '16 7:54:34 PM lluewhyn
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Adding to D&D section
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**One problem of the specific AlwaysChaoticEvil types of monsters is that they are almost always described as being this way to everyone, even each other, including their own family members! Most historical cultures in the real world that committed atrocities had some level of morality with their own cultures and families, and justified their acts as being acceptable against "others". D&D's morality system allows for breaks from alignment in the temporary sense of "having a bad day" or the like, but doesn't really allow for evil humanoids that treat each other with decency and compassion. This is especially a problem with actual Chaotic Evil races, as they would likely not be able to develop in groups more than a handful of creatures. The rulebooks occasionally reference this saying that it usually takes a warleader of some kind. Even still, there shouldn't be nearly the amount of numbers of orcs, goblins, etc. as there are described in the game because they would eventually kill each other off with relentless backstabbing. It's also amusing to see the books try to handwave armies of demons as saying they're under the control of powerful demon lords....who are also supposed to be Chaotic Evil and thus would not make effective planners or leaders.
1st Feb '16 7:42:54 PM lluewhyn
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eberron
25th Jan '16 8:30:38 PM merotoker
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* ''Anime/CombattlerV'': For a while it seemed the trope was being played straight, but was ultimately averted. The Campbellians attacking Earth were not representative of the entire race, but a rebel fraction led by leaders constantly indoctrinating their troops into believing it is HUMANS who are Always Chaotic Evil. The greater part of the Campbellians were not presented as evil or harbouring ill will towards humans, and actually at the end [[spoiler:Deus, the Campbellians' true leader, came to Earth to stop BigBad Empress Janera personally, and vowed he would help to rebuild what Janera destroyed on Earth.]]
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* ''Anime/CombattlerV'': For a while it seemed the trope was being played straight, but was ultimately averted. The Campbellians attacking Earth were not representative of the entire race, but a rebel fraction led by leaders constantly indoctrinating their troops into believing it is HUMANS who are Always Chaotic Evil. The greater part of the Campbellians were not presented as evil or harbouring ill will towards humans, and actually at the end [[spoiler:Deus, the Campbellians' true leader, came to Earth to stop BigBad Empress Janera personally, and vowed he would help to rebuild what Janera destroyed on Earth.]]Earth]].

** This probably has something to do with the fact that the youma are [[spoiler:manufactured. The chaotic bloodthirstiness of the Awakened Beings is implied to be a bug the Council is desperately trying to work out, or at least turn into ''directed'' bloodthirstiness.]] The youma aren't even truly evil [[spoiler:being mindless parasites. They mutate their hapless human hosts, driving them insane with a hunger that can only be satisfied by human flesh.]]
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** This probably has something to do with the fact that the youma are [[spoiler:manufactured. The chaotic bloodthirstiness of the Awakened Beings is implied to be a bug the Council is desperately trying to work out, or at least turn into ''directed'' bloodthirstiness.]] bloodthirstiness]]. The youma aren't even truly evil [[spoiler:being mindless parasites. They mutate their hapless human hosts, driving them insane with a hunger that can only be satisfied by human flesh.]]flesh]].

** Though, by the end of the manga, [[spoiler: we find out that the Diclonus are descendants of the Oni from ancient times (with Lucy being the only true genetic descendant), and that their need to kill humans stems from their demonic ancestors genetically encoding them to want to seek revenge on their destroyers.]] *** But, [[spoiler: the man who believed that turned out to not be a Diclonius at all but rather have a case of atavism, bringing that whole origin into question.]] Lucy [[spoiler: was just the result of a mutation in her mother.]]
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** Though, by the end of the manga, [[spoiler: we find out that the Diclonus are descendants of the Oni from ancient times (with Lucy being the only true genetic descendant), and that their need to kill humans stems from their demonic ancestors genetically encoding them to want to seek revenge on their destroyers.]] destroyers]]. *** But, [[spoiler: the man who believed that turned out to not be a Diclonius at all but rather have a case of atavism, bringing that whole origin into question.]] Lucy [[spoiler: was just the result of a mutation in her mother.]]mother]].

** Although Always Chaotic Evil is how [[ExtranormalInstitute the DWMA]] and most of the world view witches, Kid, the future [[TheGrimReaper Grim Reaper]] and thus leader of the DWMA, starts to have his doubts after he discovers [[OrderVersusChaos that pure order isn't any better than pure chaos]]. While [[spoiler:trying to [[EnemyMine get help from the Witch Council]]]] he ultimately comes to the conclusion that [[spoiler:everyone has some sense of order ''and'' destructive instinct, even witches. He reasons that if they were really chaos incarnate, they'd never have formed a functional society. Conversely, he claims a destructive urge isn't necessarily a bad thing; humans can channel such things to a positive, so [[BadPowersGoodPeople witches must be capable of the same]].]]
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** Although Always Chaotic Evil is how [[ExtranormalInstitute the DWMA]] and most of the world view witches, Kid, the future [[TheGrimReaper Grim Reaper]] and thus leader of the DWMA, starts to have his doubts after he discovers [[OrderVersusChaos that pure order isn't any better than pure chaos]]. While [[spoiler:trying to [[EnemyMine get help from the Witch Council]]]] he ultimately comes to the conclusion that [[spoiler:everyone has some sense of order ''and'' destructive instinct, even witches. He reasons that if they were really chaos incarnate, they'd never have formed a functional society. Conversely, he claims a destructive urge isn't necessarily a bad thing; humans can channel such things to a positive, so [[BadPowersGoodPeople witches must be capable of the same]].]]same]]]].

** Most of the vampires we see in the series were [[CardCarryingVillain Card Carrying Villains]] ''before'' becoming vampires, being vicious war-mongers. [[{{Ghostapo}} Who were also Nazis]]. In their case, becoming vampires didn't turn them evil. It just gave them fangs.
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** Most of the vampires we see in the series were [[CardCarryingVillain Card {{Card Carrying Villains]] Villain}}s ''before'' becoming vampires, being vicious war-mongers. [[{{Ghostapo}} Who were also Nazis]]. In their case, becoming vampires didn't turn them evil. It just gave them fangs.

* The Evronians from ''ComicBook/PaperinikNewAdventures'' are {{Emotion Eater}}s that ''need'' to attack other races to drain them of the emotions that feed both them [[PoweredByAForsakenChild and some of their technologies]], and cause untold and unneeded destruction for no other reason they can. It's {{subverted|Trope}} by both a few individual members (especially Gorthan) and the fact that, before [[PhysicalGoddess Xadhoom]] exterminated most of them, they were trying to solve the energetic problem (in fact one possible alternative power source was ''Xadhoom herself'', had they managed to keep her captured long enough), and after that a group of survivors prove themselves relatively peaceful when they ask Earth for help, but is later [[DoubleSubversion Double Subverted]] when that same group of survivors use the chance to insert a [[VoluntaryShapeshifter shape-shifting spy]] on Earth to prepare a future invasion.
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* The Evronians from ''ComicBook/PaperinikNewAdventures'' are {{Emotion Eater}}s that ''need'' to attack other races to drain them of the emotions that feed both them [[PoweredByAForsakenChild and some of their technologies]], and cause untold and unneeded destruction for no other reason they can. It's {{subverted|Trope}} by both a few individual members (especially Gorthan) and the fact that, before [[PhysicalGoddess Xadhoom]] exterminated most of them, they were trying to solve the energetic problem (in fact one possible alternative power source was ''Xadhoom herself'', had they managed to keep her captured long enough), and after that a group of survivors prove themselves relatively peaceful when they ask Earth for help, but is later [[DoubleSubversion Double Subverted]] when that same group of survivors use the chance to insert a [[VoluntaryShapeshifter [[VoluntaryShapeshifting shape-shifting spy]] on Earth to prepare a future invasion.

* The WesternAnimation/KungFuPanda franchise has a few species that fall into this. The most notable examples are gorillas, crocodiles (with the exception of Master Croc; according to WordOfGod he did a HeelFaceTurn), and ''especially'' wolves. Snow leopards aren't shown in a very positive light either, considering that this is the species of both [[ArrogantKungFuGuy Tai Lung]] and the [[SiblingsInCrime Wu Sisters]]. The young snow leopard Peng [[spoiler:Tai Lung's nephew]] is an exception. So much so that when he thought he ''might'' end up following Tai Lung's path [[spoiler:he temporarily gave up Kung Fu.]]
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* The WesternAnimation/KungFuPanda franchise has a few species that fall into this. The most notable examples are gorillas, crocodiles (with the exception of Master Croc; according to WordOfGod he did a HeelFaceTurn), and ''especially'' wolves. Snow leopards aren't shown in a very positive light either, considering that this is the species of both [[ArrogantKungFuGuy Tai Lung]] and the [[SiblingsInCrime Wu Sisters]]. The young snow leopard Peng [[spoiler:Tai Lung's nephew]] is an exception. So much so that when he thought he ''might'' end up following Tai Lung's path [[spoiler:he temporarily gave up Kung Fu.]]Fu]].

* Gremlins from, well, ''Film/{{Gremlins}}''. Gizmo is the only member of the species who is good, and you'll notice that he never becomes a gremlin himself. The other Mogwai spawned from Gizmo also apply, but they're somewhat more benign than the full Gremlins. The novelization explains that [[spoiler:the Mogwai were a failed attempt by alien scientists to create the perfect companion. Most Mogwai turned out to be dangerous. The rare few who turned out right like Gizmo are called "Eternals".]]
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* Gremlins from, well, ''Film/{{Gremlins}}''. Gizmo is the only member of the species who is good, and you'll notice that he never becomes a gremlin himself. The other Mogwai spawned from Gizmo also apply, but they're somewhat more benign than the full Gremlins. The novelization explains that [[spoiler:the Mogwai were a failed attempt by alien scientists to create the perfect companion. Most Mogwai turned out to be dangerous. The rare few who turned out right like Gizmo are called "Eternals".]]"Eternals"]].

** The [[PuppeteerParasite Yeerks]] are built up as a monolithically evil species who enslave other races because they're dicks. However, we later learn that Yeerks without hosts are almost blind and deaf, and can only swim about feebly in small pools; thus, the fact that they possess other species is understandable, if not commendable. Later still, we encounter Yeerks who do not agree with enslaving other species and either enter a voluntary commensal relationship, or live out their lives in Yeerk Pools. Even later, we find out that [[spoiler: the Iskoort, which consist of the 'isk' and the 'yoort' (the later of which is basically a yeerk) generate artificial bodies to live in which have no minds of their own.]]
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** The [[PuppeteerParasite Yeerks]] are built up as a monolithically evil species who enslave other races because they're dicks. However, we later learn that Yeerks without hosts are almost blind and deaf, and can only swim about feebly in small pools; thus, the fact that they possess other species is understandable, if not commendable. Later still, we encounter Yeerks who do not agree with enslaving other species and either enter a voluntary commensal relationship, or live out their lives in Yeerk Pools. Even later, we find out that [[spoiler: the Iskoort, which consist of the 'isk' and the 'yoort' (the later of which is basically a yeerk) generate artificial bodies to live in which have no minds of their own.]]own]].

** And Romsca, [[spoiler:though she doesn't last very long either.]]
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** And Romsca, [[spoiler:though she doesn't last very long either.]]either]].

** Melniboneans are, in fact, the inspiration for TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons' dark elves, which clarifies a few things.
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** Melniboneans are, in fact, the inspiration for TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons' ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons''' dark elves, which clarifies a few things.

* In ''TheGuardians'', both the nosferatu and the demons are Always Chaotic Evil. Justified in that the demons are {{Fallen Angel}}s who followed Lucifer in his rebellion against God, and the nosferatu are the angels who did not choose a side and were cast down to Earth.
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* In ''TheGuardians'', ''Literature/TheGuardians'', both the nosferatu and the demons are Always Chaotic Evil. Justified in that the demons are {{Fallen Angel}}s who followed Lucifer in his rebellion against God, and the nosferatu are the angels who did not choose a side and were cast down to Earth.

** The original Cybermen had lost all their emotions after being cybernetically reconstructed, and couldn't see ''why'' someone wouldn't want to "become like us". The new series's version is closer to the Daleks, but they still try to Cyber-convert their victims instead of just killing everyone. And similarly to the Daleks, the Cybermen have had a few good specimens, mostly humans who weren't fully converted and refused to hop on the Cyber-bandwagon. These specimens include [[spoiler:Yvonne Hartman, Danny Pink, TheBrigadier, and the Doctor himself, as well as pretty much any Cyberman who loses the emotional inhibitor, realizes what it's become, and kills itself.]]
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** The original Cybermen had lost all their emotions after being cybernetically reconstructed, and couldn't see ''why'' someone wouldn't want to "become like us". The new series's version is closer to the Daleks, but they still try to Cyber-convert their victims instead of just killing everyone. And similarly to the Daleks, the Cybermen have had a few good specimens, mostly humans who weren't fully converted and refused to hop on the Cyber-bandwagon. These specimens include [[spoiler:Yvonne Hartman, Danny Pink, TheBrigadier, and the Doctor himself, as well as pretty much any Cyberman who loses the emotional inhibitor, realizes what it's become, and kills itself.]]itself]].

* The Reavers in ''Series/{{Firefly}}''. It's never quite explained why they don't kill/rape/eat each other, even though they travel in such massive groups. As revealed in the movie, ''Film/{{Serenity}}'', [[spoiler: Reavers are infected with a chemical agent that, in .1% of the population, causes uncontrolled aggression.]]
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* The Reavers in ''Series/{{Firefly}}''. It's never quite explained why they don't kill/rape/eat each other, even though they travel in such massive groups. As revealed in the movie, ''Film/{{Serenity}}'', [[spoiler: Reavers are infected with a chemical agent that, in .1% of the population, causes uncontrolled aggression.]]aggression]].

** ''Spectactularly'' averted with the Romulans. Even though they are TheFederation's oldest and most persistent foe, most Romulan characters are depicted as being nuanced, sympathetic, and extremely honourable, even if they are a little arrogant or deceptive. Even the unambiguously villainous ones like Tomalak are depicted more as a WorthyOpponent than anything else. Interestingly, probably the most evil Romulan in canon, Commander Sela, is a HalfHumanHybrid.
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** ''Spectactularly'' ''Spectacularly'' averted with the Romulans. Even though they are TheFederation's oldest and most persistent foe, most Romulan characters are depicted as being nuanced, sympathetic, and extremely honourable, even if they are a little arrogant or deceptive. Even the unambiguously villainous ones like Tomalak are depicted more as a WorthyOpponent than anything else. Interestingly, probably the most evil Romulan in canon, Commander Sela, is a HalfHumanHybrid.

* By the time ''[[Series/SpartacusBloodAndSand Spartacus Vengeance]]'' rolls around, every single Roman is at best a total {{JerkAss}}, and at worst (and more likely) a complete monster. ColdBloodedTorture is a ''pass time'' for them, and their cold hearted execution of prisoners. As well as their manipulations of the idiotic populus. Deconstructed in ''War of the Damned''. Many Romans are introduced who are simply innocent civilians caught up in a war, Crassus comes off as a NobleDemon, and many of the rebels act like psychotic murders and rapists.
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* By the time ''[[Series/SpartacusBloodAndSand Spartacus Vengeance]]'' rolls around, every single Roman is at best a total {{JerkAss}}, and at worst (and more likely) a complete monster. ColdBloodedTorture is a ''pass time'' for them, and their cold hearted execution of prisoners. As well as their manipulations of the idiotic populus.populous. Deconstructed in ''War of the Damned''. Many Romans are introduced who are simply innocent civilians caught up in a war, Crassus comes off as a NobleDemon, and many of the rebels act like psychotic murders and rapists.

* The trope name comes from ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'', which certainly used the trope, though this particular phrase only came in later on and in fact signalled something of an aversion (see below). The real reason for the use of the trope was so players wouldn't feel bad when killing monsters and taking their treasure (i.e. home invasion). In fact, the whole ''cosmology'' of the ''D&D'' universe used to be based on alignment; Good and Evil (and [[OrderVersusChaos Law and Chaos]]) weren't morally relative terms, they were ''natural forces'' that influenced most creatures -- very few races (including the PlayerCharacter races) could actually ''choose'' their alignments willingly; the rest were doomed to be what they were born as.\\
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* The trope name comes from ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'', which certainly used the trope, though this particular phrase only came in later on and in fact signalled signaled something of an aversion (see below). The real reason for the use of the trope was so players wouldn't feel bad when killing monsters and taking their treasure (i.e. home invasion). In fact, the whole ''cosmology'' of the ''D&D'' universe used to be based on alignment; Good and Evil (and [[OrderVersusChaos Law and Chaos]]) weren't morally relative terms, they were ''natural forces'' that influenced most creatures -- very few races (including the PlayerCharacter races) could actually ''choose'' their alignments willingly; the rest were doomed to be what they were born as.\\

** The Drow of the ''TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms'' setting and the Draconians of the ''Literature/{{Dragonlance}}'' setting are classic examples of "evil races". However, as the plot went on, [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch individuals arose]] -- specifically, RuleOfCool scimitar-wielding (and heavily parodied in every single fantasy webcomic, due to his being heavily copied by virtually every fanboy at one point or another) Drizzt. Initially based on fanboyism, entire counter-cultures have arisen of differing alignment (as the page quote points out). In the Realms, most "good" Drow are the worshipers of Eilistraee, a goddess of the moon and hunt, whose (almost AlwaysFemale) clerics worship their goddess by [[{{Fanservice}} performing a sword dance naked]]. Though the clerics of the [[EvilGod Evil Goddess]] were all female also.
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** The Drow of the ''TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms'' setting and the Draconians of the ''Literature/{{Dragonlance}}'' setting are classic examples of "evil races". However, as the plot went on, [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch individuals arose]] -- specifically, RuleOfCool scimitar-wielding (and heavily parodied in every single fantasy webcomic, due to his being heavily copied by virtually every fanboy at one point or another) Drizzt. Initially based on fanboyism, entire counter-cultures have arisen of differing alignment (as the page quote points out). In the Realms, most "good" Drow are the worshipers of Eilistraee, a goddess of the moon and hunt, whose (almost AlwaysFemale) clerics worship their goddess by [[{{Fanservice}} performing a sword dance naked]]. Though the clerics of the [[EvilGod Evil Goddess]] {{Evil God}}dess were also all female also.female.

And yes, this ''does'' mean that, say, the [[HornyDevils Succubus]] who was driven by the PowerOfLove to forsake her evil ways or the penitent Pit Fiend will show up on a Paladin's Detect Evil. Staying away from them -- especially the [[LawfulStupid extra-stabby kind]] -- is recommended for any reformed Demons or Devils.
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And yes, this ''does'' mean that, say, the [[HornyDevils Succubus]] who was driven by the PowerOfLove ThePowerOfLove to forsake her evil ways or the penitent Pit Fiend will show up on a Paladin's Detect Evil. Staying away from them -- especially the [[LawfulStupid extra-stabby kind]] -- is recommended for any reformed Demons or Devils.

** Outside of ''TabletopGame/{{Spelljammer}}'', Illithids are an almost universally evil alien race of psychic slavers. The Elder Brains that rule their civilization are even worse. In the ''TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms'', there is ''one'' good Illithid, and that one is a very unusual case. Fortunately for everyone else in the setting, Illithid society is a mere shadow of what it used to be thanks to their former slaves, the Githyanki, rising up against them. As a result, the Illithids are [[PragmaticVillainy pragmatic]] enough to rein in their desire to eat brains long enough to trade and make deals with other races. That said, your chances of leaving with your brain intact after running into an Illithid in a dark alley all alone are still next to none.
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** Outside of ''TabletopGame/{{Spelljammer}}'', Illithids are an almost universally evil alien race of psychic slavers. The Elder Brains that rule their civilization are even worse. In the ''TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms'', there is ''one'' good Illithid, and that one is a very unusual case. Fortunately for everyone else in the setting, Illithid society is a mere shadow of what it used to be thanks to their former slaves, the Githyanki, rising up against them. As a result, the Illithids are [[PragmaticVillainy pragmatic]] {{pragmatic|Villainy}} enough to rein in their desire to eat brains long enough to trade and make deals with other races. That said, your chances of leaving with your brain intact after running into an Illithid in a dark alley all alone are still next to none.

* ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'' has a few of such races, given [[LongRunner how long the story has gone on and how many planes have been detailed]], but the most prominent would be the Phyrexians, who served as the villains of the plot for ''years'' in real-time.
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* ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'' has a few of such races, given [[LongRunner [[LongRunners how long the story has gone on and how many planes have been detailed]], but the most prominent would be the Phyrexians, who served as the villains of the plot for ''years'' in real-time.

*** Not looking good for Wrathion (the hatched egg and son of Deathwing/Neltharion).[[spoiler: Over the course of the Mists of Pandaria expansion, he tasks the player with collecting various sources of power from the land's main threats and charges them with the job of removing the highly corrupt Garrosh Hellscream from his seat of power.]] Once the player has successfully completed this task, [[spoiler:Wrathion launches into an angry tirade about how the Alliance was meant to eliminate Garrosh entirely, take over Orgrimmar (the Horde capital) and forcefully unite the to two factions (as this was the only way Wrathion felt they could come to peace) after one last quip about there being a greater threat on the horizon, he flies away in a huff.]]
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*** Not looking good for Wrathion (the hatched egg and son of Deathwing/Neltharion).[[spoiler: Over the course of the Mists of Pandaria expansion, he tasks the player with collecting various sources of power from the land's main threats and charges them with the job of removing the highly corrupt Garrosh Hellscream from his seat of power.]] Once the player has successfully completed this task, [[spoiler:Wrathion launches into an angry tirade about how the Alliance was meant to eliminate Garrosh entirely, take over Orgrimmar (the Horde capital) and forcefully unite the to two factions (as this was the only way Wrathion felt they could come to peace) after one last quip about there being a greater threat on the horizon, he flies away in a huff.]]huff]].

** ''Warlords of Draenor'' expands on the Iron Horde from the end of the previous expansion, with its founder, Garrosh Hellscream [[spoiler:Escaping prison with the help of a Bronze Dragon and traveling back in time to prevent his father from consuming the fel blood of Mannoroth and becoming corrupt.]] Putting [[spoiler:his father, Grom Hellscream, ]]in charge of the Iron Horde, they recruit many of the Orcish clans of Draenor to their side so they can fulfill their destiny as the true rulers of the world. The Iron Horde orcs are depicted as being savage but (mostly) intelligent individuals, driven only by their desire to conquer.
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** ''Warlords of Draenor'' expands on the Iron Horde from the end of the previous expansion, with its founder, Garrosh Hellscream [[spoiler:Escaping prison with the help of a Bronze Dragon and traveling back in time to prevent his father from consuming the fel blood of Mannoroth and becoming corrupt.]] corrupt]]. Putting [[spoiler:his father, Grom Hellscream, ]]in Hellscream,]] in charge of the Iron Horde, they recruit many of the Orcish clans of Draenor to their side so they can fulfill their destiny as the true rulers of the world. The Iron Horde orcs are depicted as being savage but (mostly) intelligent individuals, driven only by their desire to conquer.

** Played straight with the Zerg-Protoss Hybrids, who are all despicted as destructive and malicious. Justified in that [[spoiler:they were created by [[GodOfEvil Amon]] as a corrupt equivalent of the Xel'Naga, and most likely lack any form of free will.]]
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** Played straight with the Zerg-Protoss Hybrids, who are all despicted depicted as destructive and malicious. Justified in that [[spoiler:they were created by [[GodOfEvil Amon]] as a corrupt equivalent of the Xel'Naga, and most likely lack any form of free will.]]will]].

* The ''Franchise/MassEffect'' series subverts this a lot; even the [[EldritchAbomination Reapers]] are subversions [[spoiler: since they were constructed by a WellIntentionedExtremist AI.]]
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* The ''Franchise/MassEffect'' series subverts this a lot; even the [[EldritchAbomination Reapers]] are subversions [[spoiler: since they were constructed by a WellIntentionedExtremist AI.]]AI]].

** The Falmer weren't originally like this, but they have become twisted monsters after suffering for centuries under the rule of the Dwemer. ''Dawnguard'' reveals that [[spoiler: there is at least one sane Snow Elf left, who has hopes that there are others like him. He also notes that the Falmer are showing signs of rudimentary intelligence, giving him hope they might one day regain their lost sentience and return to civilization.]]
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** The Falmer weren't originally like this, but they have become twisted monsters after suffering for centuries under the rule of the Dwemer. ''Dawnguard'' reveals that [[spoiler: there is at least one sane Snow Elf left, who has hopes that there are others like him. He also notes that the Falmer are showing signs of rudimentary intelligence, giving him hope they might one day regain their lost sentience and return to civilization.]]civilization]].

** %% Note Hostile humans like Raiders do not qualify for this trope as they are an organization rather then their own species.
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** %% %%** Note Hostile humans like Raiders do not qualify for this trope as they are an organization rather then their own species.

** VideoGame/RatchetAndClankAll4One reveals however that [[spoiler:it was a Cragmite hero that sealed away the BigBad of the game.]]
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** VideoGame/RatchetAndClankAll4One ''VideoGame/RatchetAndClankAll4One'' reveals however that [[spoiler:it was a Cragmite hero that sealed away the BigBad of the game.]]game]].

* Zig-zagged in ''Videogame/TheLastStory.'' There are two enemy humanoid races, the [[OurOrcsAreDifferent Gurak]] and the [[OurGoblinsAreDifferent Reptids.]] Both of them are intelligent beings, but the Gurak are revealed to have the classic orc's FreudianExcuse of [[spoiler: being a formerly peaceful race who were persecuted and driven to barbarism by the mean old humans, and eventually reconcile and form a truce with them.]] The Reptids, however, are never portrayed as anything but chaotic evil XP fodder. * Set up, but then BRUTALLY [[DeconstructedTrope deconstructed]] in Videogame/UltimaVI. The kingdom of Britannia is attacked by a race of demonic-looking [[OurGargoylesRock Gargoyles]], who have a lot of sterotypically [[ObviouslyEvil "evil"]] trappings, and your character is sent out to stop them...only to eventually find out that they're not evil at all, and are simply trying to fulfill a prophecy that could save their dying civilization, which has been in peril ever since [[PlayerCharacter The Avatar]] broke into one of their temples, slaughtered a bunch of their citizens and stole their holy text. Ultima creator Richard Garriot [[WordOfGod even stated that deconstructing this trope was the entire point of the game.]]
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* Zig-zagged in ''Videogame/TheLastStory.'' There are two enemy humanoid races, the [[OurOrcsAreDifferent Gurak]] and the [[OurGoblinsAreDifferent Reptids.]] Both of them are intelligent beings, but the Gurak are revealed to have the classic orc's FreudianExcuse of [[spoiler: being a formerly peaceful race who were persecuted and driven to barbarism by the mean old humans, and eventually reconcile and form a truce with them.]] them]]. The Reptids, however, are never portrayed as anything but chaotic evil XP fodder. * Set up, but then BRUTALLY [[DeconstructedTrope deconstructed]] {{deconstructed|Trope}} in Videogame/UltimaVI. The kingdom of Britannia is attacked by a race of demonic-looking [[OurGargoylesRock Gargoyles]], who have a lot of sterotypically stereotypically [[ObviouslyEvil "evil"]] trappings, and your character is sent out to stop them...only to eventually find out that they're not evil at all, and are simply trying to fulfill a prophecy that could save their dying civilization, which has been in peril ever since [[PlayerCharacter The Avatar]] broke into one of their temples, slaughtered a bunch of their citizens and stole their holy text. Ultima creator Richard Garriot [[WordOfGod even stated that deconstructing this trope was the entire point of the game.]]

** Played straight so far with demons and undead, however - but even then they're allowed to be much more rounded characters than you would normally expect from this trope. In the case of the BigBad Xykon, the prequel book ''StartOfDarkness'' portrays him as utterly, irredeemably evil even in life - and ''still'' manages to make his lichification look tragic: [[spoiler:the process removed his sense of taste, meaning [[ItMakesSenseInContext he can never taste a bad cup of coffee again]]. He proceeds to kill his minions on a whim and send them into certain death, and abuse the ones he doesn't kill, solely because it's the only way for him to feel any joy, or really much of ''anything'', anymore.]] Most of the other undead we see are his zombified minions, who pretty much just shamble about saying "braaains", unless you count ghosts who act pretty much the same as they were in life. Demons seem to be borderline AnthropomorphicPersonifications of their alignment, but even then the most prominent ones we see in the comic, the IFCC, are out to bring an end to the rivalry between the various demonic races and bring them together to fight for the greater evil. (And Sabine, a [[HornyDevils succubus]], may be evil, but she's also portrayed as being in a stable relationship with an also-evil human man.)
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** Played straight so far with demons and undead, however - but even then they're allowed to be much more rounded characters than you would normally expect from this trope. In the case of the BigBad Xykon, the prequel book ''StartOfDarkness'' portrays him as utterly, irredeemably evil even in life - and ''still'' manages to make his lichification look tragic: [[spoiler:the process removed his sense of taste, meaning [[ItMakesSenseInContext he can never taste a bad cup of coffee again]]. He proceeds to kill his minions on a whim and send them into certain death, and abuse the ones he doesn't kill, solely because it's the only way for him to feel any joy, or really much of ''anything'', anymore.]] anymore]]. Most of the other undead we see are his zombified minions, who pretty much just shamble about saying "braaains", unless you count ghosts who act pretty much the same as they were in life. Demons seem to be borderline AnthropomorphicPersonifications of their alignment, but even then the most prominent ones we see in the comic, the IFCC, are out to bring an end to the rivalry between the various demonic races and bring them together to fight for the greater evil. (And Sabine, a [[HornyDevils succubus]], may be evil, but she's also portrayed as being in a stable relationship with an also-evil human man.)

* The Shadow Clan from ''WesternAnimation/{{Slugterra}}''. [[spoiler:Subverted, in that they are later revealed to be defenders of Slugterra, but also happen to be GoodIsNotNice.]] Also, the Dark Bane.
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* The Shadow Clan from ''WesternAnimation/{{Slugterra}}''. [[spoiler:Subverted, in that they are later revealed to be defenders of Slugterra, but also happen to be GoodIsNotNice.]] GoodIsNotNice]]. Also, the Dark Bane.

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25th Jan '16 12:09:44 PM Theriocephalus
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* The Changelings from ''WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic'' are supposedly this from their short appearance so far in the series, though much is to be confirmed and explored. Their queen gloats that ever since she was little, she dreamed of razing Equestria and [[EmotionEater essentially]] [[ToServeMan using ponies as food]]
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* The Changelings from ''WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic'' are supposedly this from [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS2E25ACanterlotWeddingPart1 their short appearance so far one]] [[Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicS2E26ACanterlotWeddingPart2 main appearance]] in the series, though much is to be confirmed and explored. series. Their queen gloats that ever since she was little, she dreamed of razing Equestria and [[EmotionEater essentially]] [[ToServeMan using ponies as food]]food]].

** The [[{{Wendigo}} Windigos]]. ** The dragons. The adults would rather roast ponies than talk to them and one tries to kill a young dragon over some eaten property. The teens react to defiance with violence and attack animals for fun. Spike's feral form is easily the nicest dragon shown, only resorting to force, and non-lethal force at that, after being physically injured, and he was raised by ponies. The comics subvert this, however, showing an entire town of much more friendly dragons.
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** The [[{{Wendigo}} Windigos]]. Windigos]], if they are intelligent beings as opposed to animal-level creatures, are this, due to deliberately causing supernatural winters to force societies to destroy themselves with hatred that the Windigos then [[EmotionEater eat]]. ** The dragons. The adults would rather roast ponies than talk to them and one tries to kill a young dragon over some eaten property. The teens react to defiance with violence and attack animals for fun. Spike's feral form is easily the nicest dragon shown, only resorting to force, and non-lethal force at that, after being physically injured, and he was raised by ponies.even then he's a rampaging [[Franchise/{{Godzilla}} Godzilla-esque]] monster. The comics subvert this, however, showing an entire town of much more friendly dragons.
9th Jan '16 5:36:10 PM toanovu13
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Added DiffLines:
* Webcomic/Runewriters has the aberrants, magical monster attack all living creatures that come anywhere near them.
6th Jan '16 11:29:02 AM Morgenthaler
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** Arguably, the Canaanites, though there are exceptions like Ruth and Rahab, both who are rewarded by becoming ancestors of {{Jesus}}. Still, many passages are devoted to just how they are about to be smited. Ultimately subverted, though, as the great multitude of the Redeemed includes ''every'' tongue and tribe.
6th Jan '16 11:28:37 AM Morgenthaler
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** ''Series/{{Reaper}}'', which has a similar premise, has an episode introducing a soul who was fighting to control murderous impulses. He eventually acknowledged that the best thing was for him to go back to Hell until he sorted himself out.
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** * ''Series/{{Reaper}}'', which has a similar premise, has an episode introducing a soul who was fighting to control murderous impulses. He eventually acknowledged that the best thing was for him to go back to Hell until he sorted himself out.

** This is an unusual case because, even though the show's vampires are explicitly Always Chaotic Evil, ''Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' gives many of them engaging and unique personalities, undercutting the usual (narrative) reason for this trope, which is to provide a supply of faceless, evil {{mooks}} who can be killed without MoralDissonance. *** Further subverted by characters like Spike and Harmony - despite being evil, both were capable of caring about human beings (the Summers girls and occasionally the witches for Spike; Cordelia and Fred for Harmony) and being voluntarily helpful towards those they liked. Harmony even stopped killing people so that she could advance in a workplace run by the "good guys". *** This also leads to FridgeBrilliance, as vampires and demons were presented as Always Chaotic Evil, but became more and more grey as the series went on. The clincher? They were presented to Buffy this way through the Watchers' Council, a conspiracy that was slowly revealed to be corrupt and full of KnightTemplar tendencies at the same time that complexities began showing up in the initial "demons are Always Chaotic Evil" mantra. *** In addition, when all the main characters' memories are wiped in "Tabula Rasa", Spike does not re-discover his thirst for human blood, not even realising that he is a vampire until he vamps out during combat, which could suggest that vampires in the Buffyverse do not in fact fit this trope.

*** In [[Recap/DoctorWhoS4E9TheEvilOfTheDaleks "The Evil of the Daleks"]], a sub-species of "Good Daleks" is created by the Doctor infecting them with the "Human Factor"; that is, human emotions and a sense of conscience. This results in a full-scale civil war between the two factions which allegedly destroyed the entire species. Terry Nation, the Daleks' creator, had planned to license them out to a US network for their own show, and expected that they would not be available for ''Doctor Who'' for the foreseeable future ([[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evil_of_the_Daleks the idea went nowhere]]). When the Daleks eventually returned five years later, some dialogue was filmed explaining that the "Good Daleks" had been wiped out, but this was edited out, leaving their canon fate ambiguous. But a story in Magazine/DoctorWhoMagazine's Eighth Doctor comics, "Children of the Revolution", was all about the Doctor and Izzy meeting the Human Factor Daleks, who survived and were hiding peacefully in the oceans of a planet about to be colonized by humans. [[spoiler:The story ends up with the entire Dalek colony sacrificing themselves to stop the Big Bad, though.]] *** In [[Recap/DoctorWhoS27E6Dalek "Dalek,"]] one of the last surviving Daleks uses Rose Tyler's DNA to rejuvenate itself and [[spoiler:starts to develop a conscience as a result. It kills itself before it can turn wholly good, though, because it can't handle the conflict between Rose Tyler's goodness and its own violent xenophobia.]] *** In [[Recap/DoctorWhoS29E5EvolutionOfTheDaleks "Evolution of the Daleks,"]] [[spoiler:Dalek Sec turns good after merging with a human.]] The other Daleks, though, ''really'' hammer home how evil they are: --->'''Solomon:''' Daleks, ain't we the same? Underneath, ain't we all kin? See, I've just discovered, this past day, that God's universe is a thousand times the size I thought it was. And that scares me. Oh, yeah, terrifies me right down to the bone. (''[[HopeSpot Hopeful music starts playing]]'') But surely it's got to give me hope, hope that maybe, together, we can make a better tomorrow. So, I beg you, now, if you have any compassion in your hearts, then you'll meet with us, and stop this fightin'. Well... what do you say?\\ '''Dalek:''' [[AC:Exterminate!]] (''[[BlackDudeDiesFirst shoots him]]'') *** In the episode [[Recap/DoctorWhoS30E13JourneysEnd "Journey's End"]], [[spoiler:Dalek Caan is also revealed to have performed a HeelFaceTurn after looking into the Time Vortex and coming to truly see the Daleks as they are.]] *** In [[Recap/DoctorWhoS33E1AsylumOfTheDaleks "Asylum of the Daleks,"]] [[spoiler:Oswin Oswald has been converted into a Dalek but refuses to accept the conversion. At first, she retreats into a fantasy world in which she is still human. Eventually, though, the Doctor pulls her head out of the sand, and she performs a HeroicSacrifice to let the Doctor escape and undermine the Dalek Empire.]] *** Subverted with [[spoiler:"Rusty," who ''appears'' to have turned good but has actually just redirected his OmnicidalManiac tendencies [[HunterOfHisOwnKind against his fellow Daleks]]. Apparently, he picked up on this hateful bloodlust from the Doctor, who [[YourApprovalFillsMeWithShame finds this kind of embarrassing]], to say the least.]] *** Interestingly enough, in their first appearance, the AlwaysLawfulGood Thals claimed that before the war that wrecked Skaro, the Daleks were the thinkers and the Thals the warriors. *** The treatment of the Daleks [[DependingOnTheWriter often depends on the writer]]. Russell T. Davies, a gay man who has experienced homophobia, often presented them as irrational hatred incarnate. Whereas Steven Moffat's take on them casts them as pitiable, hardened, half-insane survivors of millennia of war trapped by their own technology. Such is the case in "The Witch's Familiar", where the Dalek battle casing quite literally translates Clara's declarations of her individuality into "I am a Dalek!" and redirects any strong emotions she feels into a laser blast.

*** The best subversion of this would be the Sontaran in the episode "A Good Man Goes To War". After being punished for something his clone pod did, he's forced into the worst Sontaran punishment possible -- caring for the weak and dying -- a nurse. He goes around healing the people wounded in battle, nursing newborns, and even comes to help the Doctor rescue [[spoiler:Amy and her child]]. In the end, when he's [[spoiler:killed in battle]], we discover that he no longer considered himself a warrior.

* The Reavers in ''Series/{{Firefly}}''. It's never quite explained why they don't kill/rape/eat each other, even though they travel in such massive groups. ** As revealed in the movie, ''Film/{{Serenity}}'', [[spoiler: Reavers are infected with a chemical agent that, in .1% of the population, causes uncontrolled aggression.]] Given that Reavers mutilate themselves for no reason at all, the idea that they don't rape/kill/eat each other is probably because other Reavers wouldn't care about having it done TO them. [[spoiler: On their home world, they didn't attack the 99.9% who simply became overly passive, most likely because the "passives" wouldn't have given a crap either way.]] ** And that woman was part of a team sent to investigate why all communication with the planet had stopped. When the crew of Serenity check out the place, they note that everyone just laid down and died, and there are no signs of violence whatsoever. ** One could use the facts of the movie to {{Retcon}} "Bushwhacked" as the lone survivor of the ship being the only one of the crew to react in the "Reaver" way to [[spoiler: the Pax.]] The Reavers, who can sense this, left him alone and murdered the rest of the crew in front of him, then left him to change as a second booby-trap (the first one being the little thing that Kaylee had to disable to free Serenity).
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* The Reavers in ''Series/{{Firefly}}''. It's never quite explained why they don't kill/rape/eat each other, even though they travel in such massive groups. ** groups. As revealed in the movie, ''Film/{{Serenity}}'', [[spoiler: Reavers are infected with a chemical agent that, in .1% of the population, causes uncontrolled aggression.]] Given that Reavers mutilate themselves for no reason at all, the idea that they don't rape/kill/eat each other is probably because other Reavers wouldn't care about having it done TO them. [[spoiler: On their home world, they didn't attack the 99.9% who simply became overly passive, most likely because the "passives" wouldn't have given a crap either way.]] ** And that woman was part of a team sent to investigate why all communication with the planet had stopped. When the crew of Serenity check out the place, they note that everyone just laid down and died, and there are no signs of violence whatsoever. ** One could use the facts of the movie to {{Retcon}} "Bushwhacked" as the lone survivor of the ship being the only one of the crew to react in the "Reaver" way to [[spoiler: the Pax.]] The Reavers, who can sense this, left him alone and murdered the rest of the crew in front of him, then left him to change as a second booby-trap (the first one being the little thing that Kaylee had to disable to free Serenity).]]

** According to the tabletop RPG, occasionally Goa'uld would genuninely defect to the Tok'ra and join the fight against their brethren, those this was rare. ** A few episodes drive the point home on just how overwhelming the evil in the Goa'uld is. For example, when the (human) child of Apophis and Sha'Re was born, despite being taken under guidance of [[BigGood Oma Desala]] it is said that the evil of the Goa'uld is simply too strong to be fought (in fact the boy gives Daniel a vision/dream of what ''he'' would do with that same knowledge, which corrupted Daniel to become evil too - essentially as a lesson for him), and so the boy {{ascend|ToAHigherPlaneOfExistence}}s in order to escape his fate. Another episode showed a Jaffa woman who believed she was able to communicate with the growing Goa'uld larva inside her, and able to pass her moral values onto him - Then it turns out the Goa'uld was just playing her, still just as evil as the rest. **

** Although, in season 3 Tyr left the crew and tricked the major Nietzschean Prides into believing he was the genetic reincarnation of their founder Drago Museveni and attempted to conquer the galaxies. He is then replaced by Telemachus Rhade, a descendant of loyalist Nietzscheans who were [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch rather ashamed]] of the rest of their species.

* By the time ''[[Series/SpartacusBloodAndSand Spartacus Vengeance]]'' rolls around, every single Roman is at best a total {{JerkAss}}, and at worst (and more likely) a complete monster. ColdBloodedTorture is a ''pass time'' for them, and their cold hearted execution of prisoners. As well as their manipulations of the idiotic populus. ** Deconstructed in ''War of the Damned''. Many Romans are introduced who are simply innocent civilians caught up in a war, Crassus comes off as a NobleDemon, and many of the rebels act like psychotic murders and rapists.
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* By the time ''[[Series/SpartacusBloodAndSand Spartacus Vengeance]]'' rolls around, every single Roman is at best a total {{JerkAss}}, and at worst (and more likely) a complete monster. ColdBloodedTorture is a ''pass time'' for them, and their cold hearted execution of prisoners. As well as their manipulations of the idiotic populus. \n** Deconstructed in ''War of the Damned''. Many Romans are introduced who are simply innocent civilians caught up in a war, Crassus comes off as a NobleDemon, and many of the rebels act like psychotic murders and rapists.

*** Which gave rise to certain scenes from ''Film/MontyPythonsLifeOfBrian''. Namely, "[[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso What Have the Romans Ever Done For Us?]]"

*** Aaaand now 4th Edition [[DroppedABridgeOnHim Dropped A Bridge On Them]]. *** [[Literature/{{Dragonlance}} The Draconians]] are getting more development as well -- they were initially introduced as somewhat snazzier Orc-equivalents, but later books reveal that the average Draconian is only a few years old and has been force-fed a ReligionOfEvil from birth to create the perfect fighting race. This generally worked, but after the collapse of the dragonarmies, some Draconians began developing more individuality, and the ''Kang's Regiment'' series centers on a group of sympathetic Draconian protagonists who just want to be left alone to build up their race in peace.
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*** Aaaand now 4th Edition [[DroppedABridgeOnHim Dropped A Bridge On Them]]. *** [[Literature/{{Dragonlance}} ** ''Literature/{{Dragonlance}}'': The Draconians]] Draconians are getting more development as well -- they were initially introduced as somewhat snazzier Orc-equivalents, but later books reveal that the average Draconian is only a few years old and has been force-fed a ReligionOfEvil from birth to create the perfect fighting race. This generally worked, but after the collapse of the dragonarmies, some Draconians began developing more individuality, and the ''Kang's Regiment'' series centers on a group of sympathetic Draconian protagonists who just want to be left alone to build up their race in peace.

*** This is a function of the sub-types rules. Most outsiders have the subtypes of their alignment because, like a fire elemental (which has the fire subtype) that is what they are '''made of''.' Even a redeemed succubus is made of Chaos and Evil. (Which makes a redeemed succubus as strange and notable as a deep sea diving fire elemental)

*** This is usually justified in-universe by the fact that most "Evil" races are patronized by ''Demon Lords'' instead of the Gods that other mortals serve. On the other hand, others seem to have fundamental psychological predispositions that make being good rather difficult (like a tendency towards violence or a psychopathic love of fire). Many have both, making being good almost impossible without some real effort and likely help from a champion of Good (as outlined in ''Champions of Purity''). **** ''Pathfinder'', like ''D&D'', runs on a moral system which doesn't require agency (the ability to choose) to classify something as good or evil. Things like sunlight and good weather (and the gods that produce them) are "good" because they benefit PC-producing civilizations, animals are neutral because they can be useful or harmful, and storms at sea (and the associated gods) are evil because they're not beneficial. The same logic applies to other sentient beings: Vampires, for instance, cannot possibly peacefully coexist with a society that prefers to have its blood on the inside when possible. Thus, they're evil, whether they "want to be" or not. *** In older editions of ''D&D'', a smart player captured by ogres would attempt to trick the dumb brutes. In ''Pathfinder'', a smart player captured by ogres will [[BetterToDieThanBeKilled kill himself. Immediately.]]

*** Depending on the player's choices, we can meet another Tevinter mage who joined the bad guys for the exact same reason Dorian joined the good guys.

**** Turns out, [[spoiler: the Nobodies are soulless monsters by default (save Roxas, but he's implied to be a special case), but are capable of growing beyond this through their experiences and by forming bonds with others, handily explaining their rather inconsistent behavior. They just weren't told about this, as their leader's plot required that they remained in the dark]]

** Interestingly, status as "good" or "evil" is based only on choices made during random events; your civilization can embark on massive campaigns of galactic genocide and still be considered "good".
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