History Main / AllCrimesAreEqual

27th Nov '16 10:48:52 AM karstovich2
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* [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio Joe Arpaio]], Sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona (the county that contains Phoenix) 1993-2017, deliberately made it policy that a stay in his jail as horrible as he can for everybody who passes through it (prison terms that are shorter or for lesser crimes can be served in jail). The trope applies because it would not matter to him whether you're in there because you've been accused of murder or because you didn't pay a parking ticket; everybody who enters is subjected to the same [[http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-rights/judge-calls-maricopa-county-jail-conditions-unconstitutional awful conditions]]. Though he has admitted the reason he does this is to make it so they never want to come back to jail. This has drawn particular criticism because it doesn't distinguish between inmates who have been convicted of a crime and those who have not yet been tried (or are on trial) and are merely being held because they cannot make bail (or are being held on remand). While humiliating convicted criminals might be to some degree legitimate, applying the same treatment to people who have not been convicted -- and are therefore still innocent in the eyes of the law -- is highly questionable. This, combined with his policies targeting undocumented immigrants, led to his defeat by Democrat Paul Penzone in the 2016 election; Penzone promised to reverse or revise these practices, and between those opposed to Arpaio's policies in principle and those who felt that the innumerable lawsuits and massive national opprobrium the policies were generating weren't worth whatever benefit they had, there were enough voters ready to finally kick Arpaio out.

to:

* [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio Joe Arpaio]], Sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona (the county that contains Phoenix) 1993-2017, deliberately made it policy that a stay in his jail as horrible as he can for everybody who passes through it (prison terms that are shorter or for lesser crimes can be served in jail). The trope applies because it would not matter to him whether you're in there because you've been accused of murder or because you didn't pay a parking ticket; everybody who enters is subjected to the same [[http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-rights/judge-calls-maricopa-county-jail-conditions-unconstitutional awful conditions]]. Though he has admitted the reason he does enacted this is policy was to make it so they never want to come back to jail. This has drawn particular criticism because it doesn't failed to distinguish between inmates who have been convicted of a crime and those who have not yet been tried (or are on trial) and are merely being held because they cannot make bail (or are being held on remand). While humiliating convicted criminals might be to some degree legitimate, applying the same treatment to people who have not been convicted -- and are therefore still innocent in the eyes of the law -- is highly questionable. This, combined with his policies targeting undocumented immigrants, led to his defeat by Democrat Paul Penzone in the 2016 election; Penzone promised to reverse or revise these practices, and between those opposed to Arpaio's policies in on principle and those who felt that the innumerable lawsuits and massive national opprobrium the policies were generating weren't worth whatever benefit they had, there were enough voters ready to finally kick Arpaio out.
27th Nov '16 10:46:59 AM karstovich2
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* Maricopa County Sheriff [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio Joe Arpaio]] deliberately makes a stay in his jail as horrible as he can for everybody who passes through it (prison terms that are shorter or for lesser crimes can be served in jail). The trope applies because it doesn't matter to him whether you're in there because you've been accused of murder or because you didn't pay a parking ticket; everybody who enters is subjected to the same [[http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-rights/judge-calls-maricopa-county-jail-conditions-unconstitutional awful conditions]]. Though he has admitted the reason he does this is to make it so they never want to come back to jail. This has drawn particular criticism because it doesn't distinguish between inmates who have been convicted of a crime and those who have not yet been tried (or are on trial) and are merely being held because they cannot make bail (or are being held on remand). While humiliating convicted criminals might be to some degree legitimate, applying the same treatment to people who have not been convicted -- and are therefore still innocent in the eyes of the law -- is highly questionable.

to:

* Maricopa County Sheriff [[http://en.*[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio Joe Arpaio]] Arpaio]], Sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona (the county that contains Phoenix) 1993-2017, deliberately makes made it policy that a stay in his jail as horrible as he can for everybody who passes through it (prison terms that are shorter or for lesser crimes can be served in jail). The trope applies because it doesn't would not matter to him whether you're in there because you've been accused of murder or because you didn't pay a parking ticket; everybody who enters is subjected to the same [[http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-rights/judge-calls-maricopa-county-jail-conditions-unconstitutional awful conditions]]. Though he has admitted the reason he does this is to make it so they never want to come back to jail. This has drawn particular criticism because it doesn't distinguish between inmates who have been convicted of a crime and those who have not yet been tried (or are on trial) and are merely being held because they cannot make bail (or are being held on remand). While humiliating convicted criminals might be to some degree legitimate, applying the same treatment to people who have not been convicted -- and are therefore still innocent in the eyes of the law -- is highly questionable. This, combined with his policies targeting undocumented immigrants, led to his defeat by Democrat Paul Penzone in the 2016 election; Penzone promised to reverse or revise these practices, and between those opposed to Arpaio's policies in principle and those who felt that the innumerable lawsuits and massive national opprobrium the policies were generating weren't worth whatever benefit they had, there were enough voters ready to finally kick Arpaio out.
20th Nov '16 6:35:20 PM Fireblood
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* Several Western countries are under pressure to crack down heavily on antisemitic comments and actions. The problem, as critics have pointed out, is that the interpretation of antisemitic speech is so broad that it would place legitimate criticism of actions undertaken by the state of Israel on the same level as Holocaust denial, or random acts of violence against Jewish people. It has been pointed out that it would not only serve some vested interests if criticism of Israeli government actions was stifled, it would actually encourage [[ConspiracyTheorist people]] who believe the AncientConspiracy exists and a certain ethnicity is behind it - and make them even more strident in the perceived defense of their right to free speech. The venerable American Anti-Defamation League has been accused of doing this commonly, and seems to view ''all'' efforts at pressuring Israel into changing policy as an antisemitic campaign. In fairness, we must note that antisemites typically do not look fondly on Israel, as you would expect, and legitimate criticisms can get mistakes for bigotry. On the other hand, this seems to be conflated deliberately too at times as a means of tarring critics as antisemites and thus discredit them. In the US, hate speech isn't illegal. However elsewhere there have been serious legal issues (including punishment) regarding this.

to:

* Several Western countries are under pressure to crack down heavily on antisemitic comments and actions. actions here. The problem, as critics have pointed out, is that the interpretation of antisemitic speech is so broad that it would also place legitimate criticism of actions undertaken by the state of Israel on the same level as Holocaust denial, or random acts of violence against Jewish people. It has been pointed out that it would not only serve some vested interests if criticism of Israeli government actions was stifled, it would actually encourage [[ConspiracyTheorist people]] who believe the AncientConspiracy exists and a certain ethnicity is behind it - and make them even more strident in the perceived defense of their right to free speech. The venerable American Anti-Defamation League has been accused of doing this commonly, and seems to view ''all'' efforts at pressuring Israel into changing policy as an antisemitic campaign. In fairness, we must note that antisemites typically do not look fondly on Israel, as you would expect, and legitimate criticisms can get mistakes for bigotry. On the other hand, this seems to be conflated deliberately too at times as a means of tarring critics as being antisemites (even ''Jewish'' ones-they're supposedly "[[InternalizedCategorism self-hating]]") and thus discredit them. In the US, hate speech isn't illegal. However elsewhere there have been serious legal issues (including punishment) regarding this.
20th Nov '16 12:36:54 PM StFan
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* In Sigil, the central backdrop of the ''[[TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons Dungeons & Dragons]]'' ''{{Planescape}}'' setting, criminal justice is enforced by the [[KnightTemplar Mercykillers]], who have two punishments: death for felonies and mandatory 10 years' imprisonment for everything else.

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* In Sigil, the central backdrop of the ''[[TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons Dungeons & Dragons]]'' ''{{Planescape}}'' ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' ''TabletopGame/{{Planescape}}'' setting, criminal justice is enforced by the [[KnightTemplar Mercykillers]], who have two punishments: death for felonies and mandatory 10 years' imprisonment for everything else.



* The Malleus Maleficarum from ''WitchGirlsAdventures'' consider being a Witch a crime punishable by death, regardless of how they use their powers. Torment and kill mundanes for your amusement? Death! Turn the school bully into a frog because he's picking on your friend and you're a kid who doesn't know any better? Death! Local doctor who covertly uses their magic to help when regular medicine isn't enough? Death! Benevolent princess of a fantasy world come to Earth to study abroad and use your magic to help people? Death!

to:

* The Malleus Maleficarum from ''WitchGirlsAdventures'' ''TabletopGame/WitchGirlsAdventures'' consider being a Witch a crime punishable by death, regardless of how they use their powers. Torment and kill mundanes for your amusement? Death! Turn the school bully into a frog because he's picking on your friend and you're a kid who doesn't know any better? Death! Local doctor who covertly uses their magic to help when regular medicine isn't enough? Death! Benevolent princess of a fantasy world come to Earth to study abroad and use your magic to help people? Death!
31st Oct '16 6:17:11 PM Fireblood
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* Several Western countries are under pressure to crack down heavily on anti-semitic comment and action. The problem, as critics have pointed out, is that the interpretation of anti-semitic speech is so broad that it would place legitimate criticism of actions undertaken by the state of Israel on the same level as Holocaust denial, or random acts of violence against Jewish people. It has been pointed out that it would not only serve some vested interests if criticism of Israeli government actions was stifled, it would actually encourage [[ConspiracyTheorist people]] who believe the AncientConspiracy exists and a certain ethnicity is behind it - and make them even more strident in the perceived defence of their right to free speech.


Added DiffLines:

* Several Western countries are under pressure to crack down heavily on antisemitic comments and actions. The problem, as critics have pointed out, is that the interpretation of antisemitic speech is so broad that it would place legitimate criticism of actions undertaken by the state of Israel on the same level as Holocaust denial, or random acts of violence against Jewish people. It has been pointed out that it would not only serve some vested interests if criticism of Israeli government actions was stifled, it would actually encourage [[ConspiracyTheorist people]] who believe the AncientConspiracy exists and a certain ethnicity is behind it - and make them even more strident in the perceived defense of their right to free speech. The venerable American Anti-Defamation League has been accused of doing this commonly, and seems to view ''all'' efforts at pressuring Israel into changing policy as an antisemitic campaign. In fairness, we must note that antisemites typically do not look fondly on Israel, as you would expect, and legitimate criticisms can get mistakes for bigotry. On the other hand, this seems to be conflated deliberately too at times as a means of tarring critics as antisemites and thus discredit them. In the US, hate speech isn't illegal. However elsewhere there have been serious legal issues (including punishment) regarding this.
31st Oct '16 9:52:05 AM AgProv
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* Several Western countries are under pressure to crack down heavily on anti-semitic comment and action. The problem, as critics have pointed out, is that the interpretation of anti-semitic speech is so broad that it would place legitimate criticism of actions undertaken by the state of Israel on the same level as Holocaust denial, or random acts of violence against Jewish people. It has been pointed out that it would not only serve some vested interests if criticism of Israeli government actions was stifled, it would actually encourage [[Conspiracy Theorist people]] who believe the AncientConspiracy exists and a certain ethnicity is behind it - and make them even more strident in the perceived defence of their right to free speech.

to:

* Several Western countries are under pressure to crack down heavily on anti-semitic comment and action. The problem, as critics have pointed out, is that the interpretation of anti-semitic speech is so broad that it would place legitimate criticism of actions undertaken by the state of Israel on the same level as Holocaust denial, or random acts of violence against Jewish people. It has been pointed out that it would not only serve some vested interests if criticism of Israeli government actions was stifled, it would actually encourage [[Conspiracy Theorist [[ConspiracyTheorist people]] who believe the AncientConspiracy exists and a certain ethnicity is behind it - and make them even more strident in the perceived defence of their right to free speech.
31st Oct '16 9:51:33 AM AgProv
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* Several Western countries are under pressure to crack down heavily on anti-semitic comment and action. The problem, as critics have pointed out, is that the interpretation of anti-semitic speech is so broad that it would place legitimate criticism of actions undertaken by the state of Israel on the same level as Holocaust denial, or random acts of violence against Jewish people. It has been pointed out that it would not only serve some vested interests if criticism of Israeli government actions was stifled, it would actually encourage people who believe TheAncientConspiracy exists and a certain ethnicity is behind it - and make them even more strident in the perceived defence of their right to free speech.

to:

* Several Western countries are under pressure to crack down heavily on anti-semitic comment and action. The problem, as critics have pointed out, is that the interpretation of anti-semitic speech is so broad that it would place legitimate criticism of actions undertaken by the state of Israel on the same level as Holocaust denial, or random acts of violence against Jewish people. It has been pointed out that it would not only serve some vested interests if criticism of Israeli government actions was stifled, it would actually encourage people [[Conspiracy Theorist people]] who believe TheAncientConspiracy the AncientConspiracy exists and a certain ethnicity is behind it - and make them even more strident in the perceived defence of their right to free speech.
31st Oct '16 9:49:27 AM AgProv
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Added DiffLines:

* Several Western countries are under pressure to crack down heavily on anti-semitic comment and action. The problem, as critics have pointed out, is that the interpretation of anti-semitic speech is so broad that it would place legitimate criticism of actions undertaken by the state of Israel on the same level as Holocaust denial, or random acts of violence against Jewish people. It has been pointed out that it would not only serve some vested interests if criticism of Israeli government actions was stifled, it would actually encourage people who believe TheAncientConspiracy exists and a certain ethnicity is behind it - and make them even more strident in the perceived defence of their right to free speech.
26th Oct '16 6:47:56 PM Fireblood
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** To cancel out the trope, only one class of executed criminals' bodies were available for dissection by medical students: those who had been convicted of murder. Apparently, going unburied was a fate ''even worse'' than death.

to:

** To cancel out the trope, only one class of executed criminals' bodies were available for dissection by medical students: those who had been convicted of murder. Apparently, going unburied was a fate ''even worse'' than death.death (in religious doctrine, being denied Christian burial was indeed a punishment, [[SuicideIsShameful often used for suicides]]).



** This period also gave us the sayings "in for a penny, in for a pound" and "one may as well get hanged for a sheep as a lamb". Since even crimes that had lesser punishments than death tended to have fairly disproportionate punishments, criminals, realizing that how much they stole was irrelevant to the sentence began to shoot for larger hauls. Why bother stealing a mere penny or lamb, when one could steal a sheep or a pound and the punishment was no worse if caught? And if there were any witnesses, they might kill them too, to escape a death sentence that would come just as easily for theft as committing murder.
*** In a similar vein, in most legal systems, the punishment for attempted murder is generally significantly lighter than that for actual murder. This is mostly to discourage people from going back to finish the job if they didn't manage to kill their guy the first time around.
** The problem actually existed even earlier: in ''{{Literature/Utopia}}'' (1516), one of the characters critiques the idea of the death sentence for theft over the same possible result.
** In practice, this may have led to more crimes as well as worse crimes: many judges and juries modified the charge, ignored evidence, or outright acquitted certain offenders so as to avoid having to hang them for some of the more ridiculous statutes. Thus it led to legal corruption and disrespect for the very law they were tasked to enforce. Ironically, because of this, the period under which the Bloody Code occurred actually had fewer executions. Moreover, death sentences were commonly commuted in more "ridiculous" cases and the offenders were [[TradingBarsForStripes sent to]] the [[BritsWithBattleships Army and the Navy]] or [[SentencedToDownUnder Australia]]. [[LoopholeAbuse Nothing in the law says]] you can't sentence someone to death and then reduce the sentence for "merciful" reasons. At times this happened simply to empty out their prisons, as they couldn't even hang people fast enough. Of course this was far too often simply a slower death sentence. The mortality rates on the ships were horrible, and a huge percentage of enlisted soldiers died of diseases without ever even getting to see a battle.
* "[[RuleOfThree Three Strikes]] Laws" are statutes enacted by state governments in the United States which require the state courts to impose a life sentence to persons who have been convicted of three or more serious criminal offenses. Some defendants have been given sentences of 25 years to life in prison for such crimes as [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking shoplifting golf clubs]] (Gary Ewing, previous strikes for burglary and armed robbery), or, along with a violent assault, stealing a slice of pepperoni pizza from a group of children (Jerry Dewayne Williams, previous convictions for robbery and attempted robbery, sentence later reduced to six years). Some managed to score themselves sentences of ''50 years to life''[[note]]He stole these videotapes in two instances and the second was his fourth strike[[/note]] for ''stealing videotapes'' (Leandro Andrade, previous strikes for petty theft, residential burglary, transportation of marijuana, and escape from prison). In ''Rummel v. Estelle'' (1980), the Supreme Court upheld life with possible parole for third-strike felony fraud in Texas, which arose from a refusal to repay $120.75 paid for air conditioning repair that was subsequently considered unsatisfactory.

to:

** This period also gave us the sayings "in for a penny, in for a pound" and "one may as well get hanged for a sheep as a lamb". Since even crimes that had lesser punishments than death tended to have fairly disproportionate punishments, criminals, realizing that how much they stole was irrelevant to the sentence sentence, began to shoot for larger hauls. Why bother stealing a mere penny or lamb, when one could steal a sheep or a pound and the punishment was no worse if caught? And if there were any witnesses, they might kill them too, to escape a death sentence that would come just as easily for theft as committing murder.
*** In a similar vein, in most legal systems, systems the punishment for attempted murder is generally significantly lighter than that for actual murder. This is mostly to discourage people from going back to finish the job if they didn't manage to kill their guy the first time around.
** *** The problem actually existed even earlier: in ''{{Literature/Utopia}}'' ''Utopia'' (1516), one of the characters critiques the idea of the death sentence for theft over the same possible result.
** In practice, this may have led to more crimes as well as worse crimes: many judges and juries modified the charge, ignored evidence, or outright acquitted certain offenders so as to avoid having to hang them for some of the more ridiculous statutes. Thus it led to legal corruption and disrespect for the very law they were tasked to enforce. Ironically, because of this, the period under which the Bloody Code occurred actually had fewer executions. Moreover, death sentences were commonly commuted in more "ridiculous" cases and the offenders were [[TradingBarsForStripes sent to]] the [[BritsWithBattleships Army and the Navy]] or [[SentencedToDownUnder Australia]]. [[LoopholeAbuse Nothing in the law says]] you can't sentence someone to death and then reduce the sentence for "merciful" reasons. At times this happened simply to empty out their prisons, as they couldn't even hang people fast enough. Of course this was far too often simply a slower death sentence. The mortality rates on the ships were horrible, and a huge percentage of enlisted soldiers died of diseases without ever even getting to see a battle. \n A lot of people died in prison from "gaol fever" as well, before ever getting hanged. Therefore even non-capital sentences could mean death functionally.
* "[[RuleOfThree Three Strikes]] Laws" are statutes enacted by state governments in the United States which require the state courts to impose a life sentence to on persons who have been convicted of three or more serious criminal offenses. Some defendants have been given sentences of 25 years to life in prison for such crimes as [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking shoplifting golf clubs]] (Gary Ewing, previous strikes for burglary and armed robbery), or, along with a violent assault, stealing a slice of pepperoni pizza from a group of children (Jerry Dewayne Williams, previous convictions for robbery and attempted robbery, sentence later reduced to six years). Some managed to score themselves sentences of ''50 years to life''[[note]]He stole these videotapes in two instances and the second was his fourth strike[[/note]] for ''stealing videotapes'' (Leandro Andrade, previous strikes for petty theft, residential burglary, transportation of marijuana, and escape from prison). In ''Rummel v. Estelle'' (1980), the Supreme Court upheld life with possible parole for third-strike felony fraud in Texas, which arose from a refusal to repay $120.75 paid for air conditioning repair that was subsequently considered unsatisfactory.
26th Oct '16 6:18:57 PM Fireblood
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* 1500-1800 Gold Coast Africa. Because slaves were so profitable, the local rulers began to make slavery a punishment to sell people to the Europeans. Of course the incentives of this system quickly became clear to the leaders. Murder? Slavery. Treason? Slavery. Theft? Slavery. Late in paying taxes? Say something rude? Slavery. Mentioned in the book Roots.

to:

* 1500-1800 Gold Coast Africa. Because slaves were so profitable, the local rulers began to make slavery a punishment to sell people to the Europeans. Of course the incentives of this system quickly became clear to the leaders. Murder? Slavery. Treason? Slavery. Theft? Slavery. Late in paying taxes? Slavery. Say something rude? Slavery. Mentioned in the book Roots.
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