History Literature / TheNameOfTheRose

31st Mar '18 7:37:07 AM Aquila89
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* DownerEnding:[[spoiler: Jorge is never bought to justice (and even though he does poison himself and get trapped in the fiery library, he destroys not only the Aristotle, but ''everything'' else, and [[KnightTemplar he thinks he won]]), and the library burns down and kills what few named characters there are left. William and Adso must part, and William dies not long after the events of the story, during the great plague.]]

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* DownerEnding:[[spoiler: Jorge is never bought to justice (and even though he does poison himself and get trapped in the fiery library, he destroys not only the Aristotle, but ''everything'' else, and [[KnightTemplar he thinks he won]]), and the library burns down and kills what few named characters there are left. William and Adso must part, they never see each other again and William eventually dies not long after the events of the story, during the great plague.]]
31st Mar '18 7:00:52 AM moloch
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** The abbey is hosting a council made up of various factions of the Dominican and Franciscan Orders to debate the burning issue: ''Did UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} and his disciples own anything, either individually or in common'' In the film, this is used for comedy in the form "Did Jesus own his own clothes?"; in the book it is always clear that they are really discussing the church's approach to poverty and wealth, and that the debate is therefore highly political and momentous, as the Franciscan's assertion of Christ's poverty undermines the Pope's authority to increase his wealth. [[TruthInTelevision It was indeed serious business]] that led to an Antipope and nearly a civil war within the church.
** Other monks spend a great deal of time arguing over the question of ''Did UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} ever laugh?'' [[spoiler: It's actually this one, not the other question, that is the cause of all the murders.]]

to:

** The abbey is hosting a council made up of various factions of the Dominican and Franciscan Orders to debate the burning issue: ''Did "Did UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} and his disciples own anything, either individually or in common'' common?" In the film, this is used for comedy in the form "Did Jesus own his own clothes?"; in the book it is always clear that they are really discussing the church's approach to poverty and wealth, and that the debate is therefore highly political and momentous, as the Franciscan's assertion of Christ's poverty undermines the Pope's authority to increase his wealth. [[TruthInTelevision It was indeed serious business]] that led to an Antipope and nearly a civil war within the church.
** Other monks spend a great deal of time arguing over the question of ''Did UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} ever laugh?'' [[spoiler: It's actually this one, question, not the other question, one, that is the root cause of all the murders.]]
31st Mar '18 6:18:17 AM moloch
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* TheHeretic: The book takes

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* TheHeretic: The book takestakes place during a period in Church history where heresy was being seen ''everywhere''. The Franciscans even believe the Pope is a heretic at this time!
31st Mar '18 5:58:03 AM moloch
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* McGuffin: What would drive monks to commit murder? A book, of course. The books is [[spoiler: possibly the only copy in the world of the second book of Aristotle's ''Poetics'', the treatise on comedy.]]

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* McGuffin: What would drive monks to commit murder? A book, of course. The books book is [[spoiler: possibly the only copy in the world of the second book of Aristotle's ''Poetics'', the treatise on comedy.]]
31st Mar '18 5:36:24 AM moloch
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* TheLateMiddleAges: Set in 1327. TheHundredYearsWar is about to kick off between England and France, the conflict between Holy Roman Emperor Louis the Bavarian and Pope John XXII is [[CorruptChurch nearly plunging the church into civil war]], apocalyptic millenarianist movements are springing up everywhere, Europe is caught intellectually between [[MedievalMorons old certainty]] and [[UsefulNotes/TheRenaissance new learning]] and UsefulNotes/TheBlackPlague is just around the corner. [[{{Understatement}} It is not a nice time to be alive.]]

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* TheLateMiddleAges: Set in 1327. TheHundredYearsWar is about to kick off between England and France, the conflict between Holy Roman Emperor Louis the Bavarian and Pope John XXII is [[CorruptChurch nearly plunging the church into civil war]], apocalyptic millenarianist movements are springing up everywhere, Europe is caught intellectually between [[MedievalMorons old certainty]] and [[UsefulNotes/TheRenaissance new learning]] and UsefulNotes/TheBlackPlague UsefulNotes/TheBlackDeath is just around the corner. [[{{Understatement}} It is not a nice time to be alive.]]
16th Mar '18 5:36:20 AM moloch
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%% * AwesomenessByAnalysis: William.

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%% * AwesomenessByAnalysis: William.William, who's applying the philosophy at one of the earliest stages of its development. He's a student of Roger Bacon and William of Ockham, effectively the Trope Codifiers of the "analysis" part.



%%* BigLabyrinthineBuilding

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%%* BigLabyrinthineBuilding* BigLabyrinthineBuilding: The Library, to confuse those who shouldn't be there. As well as being a labyrinth, it has a mysterious organising system and some traps, to confuse those who shouldn't be there.



%%* CorruptChurch: The papal delegates.

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%%* * CorruptChurch: The papal delegates.story takes place during the papacy of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XXII John XXII]], who was notorious for centralising the power and income of the papacy in himself, and the reason the murders need to be solved quickly is because of the upcoming meeting between those loyal to John, and the poor Franciscans patronised by Louis of Bavaria, who's using them as leverage against the papacy. Some Franciscans even consider John not just greedy, but an actual heretic.



%%* DefinitelyFinalDungeon: The library tower.

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%%* * DefinitelyFinalDungeon: The Once William and Adso head for the library tower.tower knowing the murderer is in the Finish Africae, you know they won't come out again until everything's resolved..



* DownerEnding:[[spoiler: Jorge is never bought to justice (although he does poison himself then get trapped in a library thats caught fire, so doesget some karmic comeuppance), the library burns down and kills what few named characters there are left, and William dies not long after the events of the story.]]

to:

* DownerEnding:[[spoiler: Jorge is never bought to justice (although (and even though he does poison himself then and get trapped in a library thats caught fire, so doesget some karmic comeuppance), the fiery library, he destroys not only the Aristotle, but ''everything'' else, and [[KnightTemplar he thinks he won]]), and the library burns down and kills what few named characters there are left, left. William and Adso must part, and William dies not long after the events of the story.story, during the great plague.]]



* EekAMouse: The monks laugh when Berenger does the 'jump up on the chair' version.

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* EekAMouse: The monks laugh when Berenger Berengar does the 'jump up on the chair' version.version in the film.



** William has one [[OhCrap too late]] in the book, after the murder of [[spoiler: Severinus the herbalist]]. They search for [[McGuffin the book]] among the ruins of Severinus's shelves, and William crossly mocks Adso for asking if a book clearly written in Arabic was the Greek volume they're looking for. [[spoiler: It's only as they reach the church later that William realises that you can bind two languages in the same book, and ''Severinus couldn't read Arabic!'' Unfortunately, Benno has the book, because he realised it before them.]]



* EveryManHasHisPrice: Bence of Upsalla is eager to help William with his investigation... until Malachy makes him the new assistant librarian. His ambition fulfilled, he refuses to help any further.

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* EveryManHasHisPrice: Bence Benno of Upsalla Uppsala is eager to help William with his investigation... until Malachy Malachi makes him the new assistant librarian. His ambition fulfilled, he refuses to help any further.



%%* FoeYay: [[invoked]] {{Lampshaded}} by Adso in the book as he follows the last dialogue between [[spoiler: William and Jorge]].

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%%* * FoeYay: [[invoked]] {{Lampshaded}} by Adso in the book as he follows the last dialogue between [[spoiler: William and Jorge]].Jorge]]. They both crave the other's appreciation of what they did and how clever they were, to a prideful extent.



%%* TheHeretic

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%%* TheHeretic* TheHeretic: The book takes



* HistoricalDomainCharacter: Bernard(o) Gui(donis), Ubertino da Casale, Michael of Cesena.

to:

* HistoricalDomainCharacter: Bernard(o) Gui(donis), Ubertino da Casale, Casale and Michael of Cesena.



%%* KarmaHoudini: [[spoiler: Bernardo Guy]] in the book.
* TheKillerWasLeftHanded: Although not the killer, Berenger is shown to have written a note because he's the only left-handed monk.
%%* KnightTemplar: A whole army of them: the killer, the Dulcinians, the Inquisitors...

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%%* KarmaHoudini: [[spoiler: Bernardo Guy]] in the book.
* TheKillerWasLeftHanded: Although not the killer, Berenger Berengar is shown to have written a note because he's the only left-handed monk.
%%* * KnightTemplar: A whole army of them: the killer, the Dulcinians, the Inquisitors...Inquisitors... Although don't actually go ''calling'' them Knights Templar, because you'd be calling them [[BerserkButton heretics]].



%%* TheLateMiddleAges
* LockedRoomMystery: The first death involves a defenestration beneath a window that cannot be unopened. William easily proves the man jumped from a nearby tower and his body rolled to its final resting place.

to:

%%* TheLateMiddleAges
* TheLateMiddleAges: Set in 1327. TheHundredYearsWar is about to kick off between England and France, the conflict between Holy Roman Emperor Louis the Bavarian and Pope John XXII is [[CorruptChurch nearly plunging the church into civil war]], apocalyptic millenarianist movements are springing up everywhere, Europe is caught intellectually between [[MedievalMorons old certainty]] and [[UsefulNotes/TheRenaissance new learning]] and UsefulNotes/TheBlackPlague is just around the corner. [[{{Understatement}} It is not a nice time to be alive.]]
* LockedRoomMystery: The first death involves a defenestration beneath a window that cannot be unopened.opened. William easily proves the man jumped from a nearby tower and his body rolled to its final resting place.



%%* LitFic



%%* MadOracle: Ubertino is considered to be this in the film.



* McGuffin: What would drive monks to commit murder? A book, of course. The books is [[spoiler: possibly the only copy in the world of the second book of Aristotle's ''Poetics'', the treatise on comedy.]]



* NeverSuicide: The very first death is Adelmo, who threw himself out of a window he couldn't have reached, then closed it behind him. [[spoiler: It turns out this one really was suicide. He threw himself off the wall, and a landslide moved him under the window.]]



* OccamsRazor: One of William's tricks of the trade, appropriately enough.

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* OccamsRazor: One of William's tricks of the trade, appropriately enough. He learned it from William of Ockham himself.



* PunnyName: The abbot's name is Abbo.

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* PunnyName: The abbot's name is Abbo.Abo.



** In the book [[spoiler:the library burns, the book is destroyed and Bernardo gets away with the torture and unjust execution of three people]]. This was lightened up a little for the movie.

to:

** In the book [[spoiler:the library burns, burns and the book is destroyed destroyed, and Bernardo Jorge basically gets away with it, convinced he's won. Bernard Gui gets away with the torture and unjust execution of three people]].people, at least one of whom was absolutely innocent]]. This was lightened up a little for the movie.



* RansackedRoom: The herbalist discovers the book and goes to tell William of Baskerville, who tells him to lock himself in his room and let no-one in until he arrives (Baskerville is held up by the theological debate). On returning to his apothecary, he shocked to find the place ransacked. He bolts the door and quickly goes to check the book is still there. It is -- lying on the floor under a table. The herbalist is relieved ...until he sees a hooded figure step out from behind a curtain and walk toward him...

to:

* RansackedRoom: The herbalist discovers the book and goes to tell William of Baskerville, who tells him to lock himself in his room and let no-one in until he arrives (Baskerville (William is held up by the theological debate). On returning to his apothecary, he shocked to find the place ransacked. He bolts the door and quickly goes to check the book is still there. It is -- lying on the floor under a table. The herbalist is relieved ...until he sees a hooded figure step out from behind a curtain and walk toward him...



* RedHerring: [[spoiler: The connection between the various deaths and the seven trumpets of Revelation turns out to be a coincidence after all]]. When this theory is discussed openly, the killer decides to run with it, which complicates things further.

to:

* RedHerring: [[spoiler: The connection between the various deaths and the seven trumpets of Revelation turns out to be a coincidence after all]]. When this theory is discussed openly, the killer decides to run with it, which complicates things further. [[spoiler: [[MaybeMagicMaybeMundane He notes that even though it was never deliberate]], somehow the murders ''really did'' follow the pattern, as if by chance. He just takes it as another sign that the End of Time is imminent.]]



* SadisticChoice: Gui insists William, a former victim, serve as a judge in [[UsefulNotes/TheSpanishInquisition the Inquisition]]: in the book, William [[spoiler: is a former inquisitor, who wants nothing more to do with it]]; the movie shows that William [[spoiler: refused to convict a witch and got marched out and judged by Guis-this is HollywoodHistory, as the real inquisitors rarely prosecuted any suspected witches, while most actively disbelieved in witchcraft]].

to:

* SadisticChoice: Gui insists William, a former victim, serve as a judge in [[UsefulNotes/TheSpanishInquisition the Inquisition]]: in the book, William [[spoiler: is a former inquisitor, who wants nothing more to do with it]]; the movie shows that William [[spoiler: refused to convict a witch and got marched out and judged by Guis-this Gui - this is HollywoodHistory, as the real inquisitors rarely prosecuted any suspected witches, while most actively disbelieved in witchcraft]].



* SeriousBusiness: The abbey is hosting a council made up of various factions of the Dominican and Franciscan Orders to debate the burning issue: ''Did UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} own his own clothes?'' In the film, this is used for comedy; in the book it is always clear that they are really discussing the church's approach to poverty and wealth, and that the debate is therefore highly political and momentous. Other monks spend a great deal of time arguing over the question of ''Did UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} ever laugh?''

to:

* SeriousBusiness: SeriousBusiness:
**
The abbey is hosting a council made up of various factions of the Dominican and Franciscan Orders to debate the burning issue: ''Did UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} and his disciples own his own clothes?'' anything, either individually or in common'' In the film, this is used for comedy; comedy in the form "Did Jesus own his own clothes?"; in the book it is always clear that they are really discussing the church's approach to poverty and wealth, and that the debate is therefore highly political and momentous. momentous, as the Franciscan's assertion of Christ's poverty undermines the Pope's authority to increase his wealth. [[TruthInTelevision It was indeed serious business]] that led to an Antipope and nearly a civil war within the church.
**
Other monks spend a great deal of time arguing over the question of ''Did UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} ever laugh?''laugh?'' [[spoiler: It's actually this one, not the other question, that is the cause of all the murders.]]



* ThemeSerialKiller: The killings follow symbolism from the Book of Revelation. [[spoiler:Subverted; it turns out this is mostly by accident.]]
* TheReasonYouSuckSpeech: William gives one to [[spoiler: Jorge]] at the end.

to:

* ThemeSerialKiller: The killings follow symbolism from the Book of Revelation. [[spoiler:Subverted; [[spoiler: Then it turns out this is mostly by accident.accident. Some of the killings weren't even murder.]]
* TheReasonYouSuckSpeech: William gives one to [[spoiler: Jorge]] Jorge of Burgos]] at the end.



* TomeOfEldritchLore: The lost dialogue of Aristotle is assumed to be this. [[spoiler:It's actually poisoned]].

to:

* TomeOfEldritchLore: The lost dialogue of Aristotle book is assumed to be this. [[spoiler:It's actually poisoned]].



%%* WitchHunt: Literally.



* WellIntentionedExtremist: Jorge wants to [[spoiler:destroy the last edition of the Poetics of Aristotle in the film, because he feels that it will teach men to approach all matters with laughter and kill fear of the devil and thus, in ''his'' mind at least, render men irreligious.]]

to:

* WellIntentionedExtremist: Jorge wants to [[spoiler:destroy the last edition copy of the Poetics "Comedy" volume of Aristotle in the film, Aristotle's ''Poetics'', because he feels that it will teach men to approach all matters with laughter and kill fear of the devil and thus, in ''his'' mind at least, render men irreligious.]]
7th Feb '18 4:16:41 AM DoctorNemesis
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* DownerEnding:[[spoiler: Jorge is never bought to justice (although he does get burned to death, so doesn't exactly escape LaserGuidedKarma), the library burns down and kills what few named characters there are left, and William dies not long after the events of the story.]]

to:

* DownerEnding:[[spoiler: Jorge is never bought to justice (although he does poison himself then get burned to death, trapped in a library thats caught fire, so doesn't exactly escape LaserGuidedKarma), doesget some karmic comeuppance), the library burns down and kills what few named characters there are left, and William dies not long after the events of the story.]]
7th Feb '18 3:52:17 AM DoctorNemesis
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Added DiffLines:

* TheFundamentalist: Out of all the monks, Jorge of Borges is the only who seems truly committed to the teachings of Christianity... to a truly unsettling degree. The others seem more interested in accumulating wealth, accumulating power and influence, or satisfying their own lusts (base or otherwise). Even William of Baskerville tends to approach his faith from a more Gnostic and rationalist perspective.
7th Feb '18 3:44:57 AM DoctorNemesis
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* BystanderSyndrome: Another monk is murdered ''after'' Bernard Gui tortures a false confession out of Remigio. He declares that it's not his job to keep order in the monastery and he already did what he came here to do.



* NotMyProblem: Another monk is murdered ''after'' Bernard Gui tortures a false confession out of Remigio. He declares that it's not his job to keep order in the monastery and he already did what he came here to do.
7th Feb '18 3:42:37 AM DoctorNemesis
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* TheSpeechless: The girl in the movie.

to:

* TheSpeechless: The girl in the movie. She technically ''does'' speak in the novel, but since Adso can't understand the language she's speaking in he never manages to record what she says.
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