History Literature / TheIliad

29th Oct '16 7:35:19 PM cdenton
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* ValuesDissonance: Quite a bit. There are plenty of morals and themes that wouldn't be out of place even today (see AnAesop) but alongside those there's teachings like "If in war a soldier surrenders and begs to be taken as a hostage, kill him anyway, especially because if you're victorious you'll get to loot his home anyway!"
29th Oct '16 7:34:45 PM cdenton
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* ValuesDissonance: Quite a bit. There are plenty of morals and themes that wouldn't be out of place even today (see AnAesop) but alongside those there's teachings like "If in war a soldier surrenders and begs to be taken as a hostage, kill him anyway, especially because if you're victorious you'll get to loot his home anyway!"
28th Oct '16 4:17:46 PM dlchen145
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* AsskickingEqualsAuthority: If Achilles is so {{badass}}, why is Agamemnon in charge? He has the most ships, by ten. Admittedly, the entire fleet was put together to bring Helen back to her husband, Agamemnon's brother.

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* AsskickingEqualsAuthority: If Achilles is so {{badass}}, badass, why is Agamemnon in charge? He has the most ships, by ten. Admittedly, the entire fleet was put together to bring Helen back to her husband, Agamemnon's brother.



* BrainsAndBrawn: [[TheRival Hector]] and [[TheStrategist Polydamas]], [[TheBigGuy Greater Ajax]] and Teucer, [[TheSmartGuy Odysseus]] and [[BadAss Diomedes]] in Book 10.

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* BrainsAndBrawn: [[TheRival Hector]] and [[TheStrategist Polydamas]], [[TheBigGuy Greater Ajax]] and Teucer, [[TheSmartGuy Odysseus]] and [[BadAss Diomedes]] Diomedes in Book 10.



* DisposablePilot: Charioteers in this story tend to have the life expectancy of an asthmatic mayfly. Which makes Automedon holding his own in a fight against ''Hector'' of all people and ''surviving'' all the more BadAss. Then again, Automedon isn't just ''any'' charioteer, he's ''Achilles''' charioteer, so he's Badass by association.

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* DisposablePilot: Charioteers in this story tend to have the life expectancy of an asthmatic mayfly. Which makes Automedon holding his own in a fight against ''Hector'' of all people and ''surviving'' all the more BadAss.badass. Then again, Automedon isn't just ''any'' charioteer, he's ''Achilles''' charioteer, so he's Badass by association.



* GeniusBruiser: Most of the heroes would fall into this category by modern standards, as they're able to speak eloquently and have erudite conversations with each other despite being supreme badasses. The Greeks valued wit and intelligence as much as martial ability. However, the stand-out is obviously Odysseus, favored of Athena, who has the well-earned reputation as the most clever hero. Polydamas (as BadAss Hector's {{Foil}}) is also up there.

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* GeniusBruiser: Most of the heroes would fall into this category by modern standards, as they're able to speak eloquently and have erudite conversations with each other despite being supreme badasses. The Greeks valued wit and intelligence as much as martial ability. However, the stand-out is obviously Odysseus, favored of Athena, who has the well-earned reputation as the most clever hero. Polydamas (as BadAss badass Hector's {{Foil}}) is also up there.



* TheLoad: Paris may be the UrExample. Even the other Trojans think he's a philandering, cowardly jerk who's responsible for the war. His preferred weapon is a "cowardly bow." He is humiliated in his only proper fight, and relies on the Goddess of Love to get him out of trouble. When the armies gather for the duel between Paris and Menelaus, it is explicitly stated that, whether Greek or Trojan, ''everyone'' wants Paris dead. In one translation, he gets called a "desperate, womanizing pretty boy" by his BadAss older brother Hector, and a "sissy, curly-haired pimp of a bowman" by Diomedes. Even his father, Priam, calls him a "hero of the dance, light-fingered pillager of lambs and kids from the town pens", saying that he's a useless wimp. In part of the myth not covered in the ''Iliad'', he [[ForMassiveDamage gets one over]] Achilles by hitting his heel with his ''poisoned'' arrows. (Poison was not considered utterly dishonorable in this time period, but it wasn't exactly RatedMForManly, even if both Heracles and Philoctetes used arrows poisoned with the blood of the Hydra.)

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* TheLoad: Paris may be the UrExample. Even the other Trojans think he's a philandering, cowardly jerk who's responsible for the war. His preferred weapon is a "cowardly bow." He is humiliated in his only proper fight, and relies on the Goddess of Love to get him out of trouble. When the armies gather for the duel between Paris and Menelaus, it is explicitly stated that, whether Greek or Trojan, ''everyone'' wants Paris dead. In one translation, he gets called a "desperate, womanizing pretty boy" by his BadAss badass older brother Hector, and a "sissy, curly-haired pimp of a bowman" by Diomedes. Even his father, Priam, calls him a "hero of the dance, light-fingered pillager of lambs and kids from the town pens", saying that he's a useless wimp. In part of the myth not covered in the ''Iliad'', he [[ForMassiveDamage gets one over]] Achilles by hitting his heel with his ''poisoned'' arrows. (Poison was not considered utterly dishonorable in this time period, but it wasn't exactly RatedMForManly, even if both Heracles and Philoctetes used arrows poisoned with the blood of the Hydra.)



* ThoseTwoGuys: Idomeneus (King Of Crete) and his aide-de-camp, Meriones. They're practically joined at the hip. Still {{Badass}} though.

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* ThoseTwoGuys: Idomeneus (King Of Crete) and his aide-de-camp, Meriones. They're practically joined at the hip. Still {{Badass}} badass though.
12th Oct '16 7:21:15 AM 06tele
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* BoyMeetsGhoul: Achilleus meets Patroclos's ghost and wants to have sex with him. In other myths concerning the Trojan War he falls in love with the Amazon queen when he has just killed her.

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* BoyMeetsGhoul: Achilleus Achilles meets Patroclos's ghost and wants to have sex with him. In other myths concerning the Trojan War he falls in love with the Amazon queen when he has just killed her.



* FoodPorn: Combines with CutAndPasteComic to form Homer's characteristic stereotype descriptions of how the men cook their meat. No matter who's eating, the description of how they prepare, cook and eat the food is always more or less the same, because in the oral tradition to which the poem belonged, there was a stock description for that action.[[note]]One translation of one iteration of it: "Once they had prayed and scattered barley grain, / they pulled back the heads of sacrificial beasts, /slit their throats, flayed them, sliced the thigh bones out,/ and hid them in twin layers of fat, with raw meat on top. /Old Chryses burned them on split wood, poured wine on them. /Young men beside him held out five-pronged forks. /Once the thighs were well burned, they sampled entrails, /then sliced up all the rest, skewered the meat on spits, /roasted it carefully, and drew off every piece. /That work complete, they then prepared a meal and ate. /No heart was left unsatisfied. All feasted equally. /And when the men had had their fill of food and drink [...]"[[/note]]

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* FoodPorn: Combines with CutAndPasteComic to form Homer's characteristic stereotype descriptions of how the men cook their meat. No matter who's eating, the description of how they prepare, cook and eat the food is always more or less the same, because in the oral tradition to which the poem belonged, there was a stock description for that action.[[note]]One translation of one iteration of it: "Once they had prayed and scattered barley grain, / they pulled back the heads of sacrificial beasts, /slit / slit their throats, flayed them, sliced the thigh bones out,/ out, / and hid them in twin layers of fat, with raw meat on top. /Old / Old Chryses burned them on split wood, poured wine on them. /Young / Young men beside him held out five-pronged forks. /Once / Once the thighs were well burned, they sampled entrails, /then / then sliced up all the rest, skewered the meat on spits, /roasted / roasted it carefully, and drew off every piece. /That / That work complete, they then prepared a meal and ate. /No / No heart was left unsatisfied. All feasted equally. /And / And when the men had had their fill of food and drink [...]"[[/note]]
12th Oct '16 7:13:02 AM 06tele
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Added DiffLines:

* FoodPorn: Combines with CutAndPasteComic to form Homer's characteristic stereotype descriptions of how the men cook their meat. No matter who's eating, the description of how they prepare, cook and eat the food is always more or less the same, because in the oral tradition to which the poem belonged, there was a stock description for that action.[[note]]One translation of one iteration of it: "Once they had prayed and scattered barley grain, / they pulled back the heads of sacrificial beasts, /slit their throats, flayed them, sliced the thigh bones out,/ and hid them in twin layers of fat, with raw meat on top. /Old Chryses burned them on split wood, poured wine on them. /Young men beside him held out five-pronged forks. /Once the thighs were well burned, they sampled entrails, /then sliced up all the rest, skewered the meat on spits, /roasted it carefully, and drew off every piece. /That work complete, they then prepared a meal and ate. /No heart was left unsatisfied. All feasted equally. /And when the men had had their fill of food and drink [...]"[[/note]]
5th Oct '16 12:32:56 PM roxana
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* AMatchMadeInStockholm: Apparently the norm between the Greek Warriors and their captive women. The latter are invariably depicted as resigned, submissive and in some cases affectionate towards their captor. Briseis weeps pitifully at being parted from Achilles and he claims to love her and calls her his wife.



%%* AloneInACrowd: Helen, so much. It's even worse when you remember that city-states had '''''tens''' of thousands'' of people in them.

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%%* * AloneInACrowd: Helen, so much. It's even worse when you remember that city-states had '''''tens''' of thousands'' of people Helen very much feels this way in them.Troy. The women barely tolerate her and only Hector and Priam are actually kind. Paris is no consolation, Helen seems to have come to despise him.



%%* EmotionalBruiser: Hector.

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%%* * EmotionalBruiser: Hector.Pretty much ever warrior on both sides. The Ancient Greeks had no problem with ManlyTears.



* HelloNurse: Helen of Troy.

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* HelloNurse: Helen of Troy.Troy turns heads wherever she goes.



* MadeASlave: Hector foresees this fate for Andromache and all the women of Troy.

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* MadeASlave: Hector foresees this fate for Andromache and all the women of Troy. It has already been the fate of the women of neighboring cities and allies.
5th Oct '16 11:57:17 AM roxana
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** Achilles. When Agamemnon takes Briseis this famous hero goes down to the sea shore and cries for his mother.
20th Sep '16 10:38:28 AM CaptainCrawdad
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* UnusualEuphemism: Getting [[RapeAsDrama abducted]] in ancient Greece may be worse than it already sounds, since some believe that it is a synonym for rape. However, the truth is the other way around: "Rape" can mean "to steal" as well. Sexual rape was just something that happened to occur during or after an abduction (or as the point of one), but "sexual rape" and "abduction" are not in any way synonymous.

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* UnusualEuphemism: UnusualEuphemism:
**
Getting [[RapeAsDrama abducted]] in ancient Greece may be worse than it already sounds, since some believe that it is a synonym for rape. However, the truth is the other way around: "Rape" can mean "to steal" as well. Sexual rape was just something that happened to occur during or after an abduction (or as the point of one), but "sexual rape" and "abduction" are not in any way synonymous.



* WhatHappenedToTheMouse: [[Literature/TheAeneid Aeneas]]. Just as Diomedes is about to kill him, the Gods save his life and declare that after the war, he shall be the leader of all future Trojans. He's rarely mentioned again, and then only in passing. 800 years later, Virgil decided to make this a BrickJoke.

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* WhatHappenedToTheMouse: [[Literature/TheAeneid Aeneas]]. Just as Diomedes is about to kill him, the Gods gods save his life and declare that after the war, he shall be the leader of all future Trojans. He's rarely mentioned again, and then only in passing. 800 years later, Virgil decided to make this a BrickJoke.
20th Sep '16 10:37:01 AM CaptainCrawdad
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* MommasBoy:
%%** Achilles.
** When she gets her hand speared by Diomedes, Aphrodite proves herself to be quite the Momma's ''Girl''.

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* MommasBoy:
%%** Achilles.
**
MommasBoy: When she gets her hand speared by Diomedes, Aphrodite proves herself to be quite the Momma's ''Girl''.
20th Sep '16 10:35:39 AM CaptainCrawdad
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* LadyOfWar: Athena herself helps out the Greek side. [[ActionGirl Also beats up Ares in a duel]].
** Also Hera and to a lesser extent Artemis. Aphrodite, on the other hand, is shown to be a lover, not a fighter.

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* LadyOfWar: LadyOfWar:
**
Athena herself helps out the Greek side. She [[ActionGirl Also also beats up Ares in a duel]].
** Also Hera and to Hera
** To
a lesser extent Artemis. Aphrodite, on the other hand, is shown to be a lover, not a fighter.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Literature.TheIliad