History HonorBeforeReason / Literature

21st Aug '16 2:01:54 PM thatmadork
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** Of course, it is worth pointing out that it works the other way. Characters who are seen as too ruthless or dishonourable become pariahs, even if their actions are well-meaning, and others refuse to trust them, ally with them or utilise their valuable skills, which causes issues all over the place. [[SacredHospitality Guest Right]] is the one near-universally valued tradition in Westeros, and [[spoiler:the Frey's]] violation of it [[spoiler:during the Red Wedding to massacre the Starks and end The War of the Five Kings in one swoop]] leads to severe political consequences for the perpetrators and chaos throughout the continent.

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** Of course, it is worth pointing out that it works the other way. Characters who are seen as too ruthless or dishonourable become pariahs, even if their actions are well-meaning, and well-meaning (for example, Ned Stark garnered a reputation as a merciless HangingJudge for his commitment to the word of honour), leading to others refuse refusing to trust them, ally with them or utilise their valuable skills, which causes issues all over the place. [[SacredHospitality Guest Right]] is the one near-universally valued tradition in Westeros, and [[spoiler:the Frey's]] violation of it [[spoiler:during the Red Wedding to massacre the Starks and end The War of the Five Kings in one swoop]] leads to severe political consequences for the perpetrators and chaos throughout the continent.
21st Aug '16 2:00:10 PM thatmadork
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Added DiffLines:

** Of course, it is worth pointing out that it works the other way. Characters who are seen as too ruthless or dishonourable become pariahs, even if their actions are well-meaning, and others refuse to trust them, ally with them or utilise their valuable skills, which causes issues all over the place. [[SacredHospitality Guest Right]] is the one near-universally valued tradition in Westeros, and [[spoiler:the Frey's]] violation of it [[spoiler:during the Red Wedding to massacre the Starks and end The War of the Five Kings in one swoop]] leads to severe political consequences for the perpetrators and chaos throughout the continent.
7th Aug '16 6:24:51 PM UmbrellasWereAwesome
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* The [[ProudWarriorRaceGuy Elites]] in the ''Franchise/{{Halo}}'' expanded universe often would rather die with honor than live without. In ''The Cole Protocol'' it's even dishonorable to have another Elite give you a mercy killing, implying you're too weak to even kill yourself.
** Some are even observed fighting in hand-to-hand combat and dying from it rather than pick up a fully loaded human weapon at their feet.
** In a bit of a departure from human concepts of honor, Elites find it dishonorable to be wounded in battle, meaning you weren't good enough to come out unharmed. The Elite dishonorable in this manner usually demands to be allowed a chance to redeem himself by shedding blood of enemies. In ''The Cole Protocol'' an Elite feudal lord is attacked in his bedchamber by assassins. He kills them and, the next day, shows up in front of his vassals and disrobes to show no marks on his body. He then kills the man who sent the assassins for not doing the honorable thing and coming after him himself.

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* The ''Literature/HaloTheColeProtocol'' is particularly notable for its many examples of the [[ProudWarriorRaceGuy Elites]] in the ''Franchise/{{Halo}}'' expanded universe often would rather die Elites]]' oft-suicidal obsession with honor than live without. In ''The Cole Protocol'' it's even dishonorable to have another Elite give you a mercy killing, implying you're too weak to even kill yourself.
** Some are even observed fighting in hand-to-hand combat and dying from it rather than pick up a fully loaded human weapon at their feet.
** In a bit of a departure from human concepts of
honor, and how foreign their code can be to human concepts:
** After Thel 'Vadamee is appointed as ''kaidon'' of Vadam, he is attacked in his bedchamber by assassins. After killing them, he confronts the elder who sent them. Thel's not really mad about the attempt on his life; he's just mad that the elder didn't do the honorable thing by attacking Thel himself. In fact, Thel is ready to execute the elder's entire clan until said elder finally decides to do the honorable thing and fight; this convinces Thel to simply exile the clan.
** It's revealed that
Elites find it dishonorable to be wounded in battle, meaning as it means you weren't good enough to come out unharmed. The Elite dishonorable in this manner usually demands strange part is that they also consider ''medical attention'' to be allowed a chance form of wounding; hence, doctors and medics are regarded as scum.
** When Thel is forced
to redeem himself by shedding blood of enemies. In ''The Cole Protocol'' MercyKill a crippled [[spoiler:Jora]], it's noted that such an Elite feudal lord act is attacked in his bedchamber by assassins. He kills them and, generally considered dishonorable, as it implies the next day, shows up in front of his vassals and disrobes recipient is too weak to show no marks on his body. He then kills the man who sent the assassins for not doing the honorable thing and coming after him himself.even kill themselves.
28th Jun '16 5:11:07 AM Thriaemis
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* Eddard "Ned" Stark from ''[[Literature/ASongofIceandFire A Game of Thrones]]'' is such a classic example, this trope could easily be called 'The Ned Stark Mindset', hence the comic on the main page. The series being highly [[SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism cynical in outlook]], this is a tragic flaw which leads directly to [[spoiler: his own death, his daughter's captivity, and his son's armed rebellion.]]

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* Eddard "Ned" Stark from ''[[Literature/ASongofIceandFire ''[[Lilterature/ASongofIceandFire A Game of Thrones]]'' is such a classic example, this trope could easily be called 'The Ned Stark Mindset', hence the comic on the main page. The series being highly [[SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism cynical in outlook]], this is a tragic flaw which leads directly to [[spoiler: his own death, his daughter's captivity, and his son's armed rebellion.]]


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** Temeraire justifiably hates this aspect of his captain's personality, particularly when it [[spoiler: gets him shot in League of Dragons]]:
-->'''Temeraire:''' ''Honor'' was a word which seemed associated with every worst disaster of his life: a hollowness for which Laurence had before now been willing to die in the most unnecessary fashion, and this one more unnecessary than ever.
20th May '16 2:18:32 PM Doug86
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* The Arkenites in the Literature/StarTrekNovelVerse take their debts very seriously. In the StarTrekVanguard series, Klingons save an Arkenite outpost from a disaster in exchange for the outpost swearing allegiance to the Klingon Empire; the residents then refuse to back out. Even though they don't want to leave the Federation or help the Klingons, they all willingly keep to the promise even when Starfleet shows up trying to "liberate" them. To choose gratification over duty and refuse to repay their debt would, their leader explains, be unthinkable.

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* The Arkenites in the Literature/StarTrekNovelVerse Franchise/StarTrekNovelVerse take their debts very seriously. In the StarTrekVanguard series, Klingons save an Arkenite outpost from a disaster in exchange for the outpost swearing allegiance to the Klingon Empire; the residents then refuse to back out. Even though they don't want to leave the Federation or help the Klingons, they all willingly keep to the promise even when Starfleet shows up trying to "liberate" them. To choose gratification over duty and refuse to repay their debt would, their leader explains, be unthinkable.
5th May '16 4:22:53 AM Morgenthaler
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* In one of MercedesLackey's [[Literature/HeraldsOfValdemar Tarma and Kethry]] stories in ''Oathblood'', Tarma and Kethry (and their Kyree Warrl) get a [[ClingyMacGuffin bad-luck cursed coin]]. Kethry refuses to do anything to pass it off onto another innocent party. Warrl comments, "Admirable. Stupid but admirable." [[spoiler:They eventually get rid of it by arranging to be targeted by bandits. Kethry only refused to pass it to an ''innocent'' party.]]
* The Arkenites in the StarTrekNovelVerse take their debts very seriously. In the StarTrekVanguard series, Klingons save an Arkenite outpost from a disaster in exchange for the outpost swearing allegiance to the Klingon Empire; the residents then refuse to back out. Even though they don't want to leave the Federation or help the Klingons, they all willingly keep to the promise even when Starfleet shows up trying to "liberate" them. To choose gratification over duty and refuse to repay their debt would, their leader explains, be unthinkable.

to:

* In one of MercedesLackey's Creator/MercedesLackey's [[Literature/HeraldsOfValdemar Tarma and Kethry]] stories in ''Oathblood'', Tarma and Kethry (and their Kyree Warrl) get a [[ClingyMacGuffin bad-luck cursed coin]]. Kethry refuses to do anything to pass it off onto another innocent party. Warrl comments, "Admirable. Stupid but admirable." [[spoiler:They eventually get rid of it by arranging to be targeted by bandits. Kethry only refused to pass it to an ''innocent'' party.]]
* The Arkenites in the StarTrekNovelVerse Literature/StarTrekNovelVerse take their debts very seriously. In the StarTrekVanguard series, Klingons save an Arkenite outpost from a disaster in exchange for the outpost swearing allegiance to the Klingon Empire; the residents then refuse to back out. Even though they don't want to leave the Federation or help the Klingons, they all willingly keep to the promise even when Starfleet shows up trying to "liberate" them. To choose gratification over duty and refuse to repay their debt would, their leader explains, be unthinkable.



* Michael from the ''KnightAndRogueSeries''. He will only lie if absolutely necessary, and lets a murder suspect run free even though doing so will give him one of the most severe punishments the law can deal because he's found evidence she's innocent. In fact, she flat out tells him she can prove her innocence in court, but he's worried because the court he wants to take her to is stacked against her and there's a chance she could be found guilty anyway. Just for added affect, this not actually guilty murderer who choses not to capture despite the penalty had been torturing/experimenting on him several hours before he made this decision.

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* Michael from the ''KnightAndRogueSeries''.''Literature/KnightAndRogueSeries''. He will only lie if absolutely necessary, and lets a murder suspect run free even though doing so will give him one of the most severe punishments the law can deal because he's found evidence she's innocent. In fact, she flat out tells him she can prove her innocence in court, but he's worried because the court he wants to take her to is stacked against her and there's a chance she could be found guilty anyway. Just for added affect, this not actually guilty murderer who choses not to capture despite the penalty had been torturing/experimenting on him several hours before he made this decision.
22nd Apr '16 10:48:14 AM Kakai
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* Discussed and ultimately defied in ''Literature/TheDinosaurLords''. When the Gardeners learn that Karl's plan to defend them is to lay traps and fight underhandedly, they are appalled, calling this cowardly and trying to force him to take the honorable route of facing the enemy dinosaur-knights in the open field. Noting that the enemy outnumbers them in knights roughly few dozen to one, Karl lambasts the Gardeners for the idea and ultimately, reason prevails.

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* Discussed and ultimately defied in ''Literature/TheDinosaurLords''. When the Gardeners learn that Karl's Karyl's plan to defend them is to lay traps and fight underhandedly, they are appalled, calling this cowardly and trying to force him to take the honorable route of facing the enemy dinosaur-knights in the open field. Noting that the enemy outnumbers them in knights roughly few dozen to one, Karl Karyl lambasts the Gardeners for the idea and ultimately, reason prevails.
22nd Apr '16 10:38:41 AM Kakai
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Added DiffLines:

* Discussed and ultimately defied in ''Literature/TheDinosaurLords''. When the Gardeners learn that Karl's plan to defend them is to lay traps and fight underhandedly, they are appalled, calling this cowardly and trying to force him to take the honorable route of facing the enemy dinosaur-knights in the open field. Noting that the enemy outnumbers them in knights roughly few dozen to one, Karl lambasts the Gardeners for the idea and ultimately, reason prevails.
23rd Feb '16 6:16:23 AM AdamKeller
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* ''Literature/WithFireAndSword'' (Polish: ''Ogniem i mieczem''), is an 1884 historical novel by the Polish author HenrykSienkiewicz set during the 17th century Khmelnytsky Uprising which ended Polish rule in what is now the Ukraine. In one of the early scenes, the Ukrainian rebels capture a town where there is a force of German mercenaries. The Ukrainians suggest that the mercenaries change sides and offer them a better contract than they had from their Polish employers. "You are mercenaries, this is not your war, what do you mind on whose side you fight?" But the mercenaries' commander answers "In three months' time our contract to the King of Poland ends. Then, we will be happy to sign a new contract with you". The Ukrainian says: "You don't have three months, we have to move on and can't afford to have at our back a force loyal to the King of Poland. If you don't change sides now, we will be forced to fight you. You are surrounded and greatly outnumbered!". To which the German answers: "It is our honor to be loyal to our contract and our employer, whatever the cost. If we lose our honor, we have nothing left". Thereupon, the mercenaries fight to the death against impossible odds rather than betray their contract, dying to the last and extracting a heavy price from the Ukrainians . (It is noteworthy that Sienkiewicz was an outspoken Romantic writer, and the characters in his books - minor and major, heroes and villains alike - often tend to act in high-minded chivalrous manner.)

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* ''Literature/WithFireAndSword'' (Polish: ''Ogniem i mieczem''), is an 1884 historical novel by the Polish author HenrykSienkiewicz set during the 17th century Khmelnytsky Uprising which ended Polish rule in what is now the Ukraine. In one of the early scenes, the Ukrainian rebels capture a town where there is a force of German mercenaries. The Ukrainians suggest that the mercenaries change sides and offer them a better contract than they had from their Polish employers. "You are mercenaries, this is not your war, what do you mind on whose side you fight?" But the mercenaries' commander answers "In three months' time our contract to the King of Poland ends. Then, we will be happy to sign a new contract with you". The Ukrainian says: "You don't have three months, we have to move on and can't afford to have at our back a force loyal to the King of Poland. If you don't change sides now, we will be forced to fight you. You are surrounded and greatly outnumbered!". To which the German answers: "It is our honor to be loyal to our contract and our employer, whatever the cost. If we lose our honor, we have nothing left". Thereupon, the mercenaries fight to the death against impossible odds rather than betray their contract, dying to the last and extracting a heavy price from the Ukrainians . (It is noteworthy that Sienkiewicz was an outspoken Romantic writer, proponent of {{Romanticism}}, and the characters in his books - minor and major, heroes and villains alike - often tend to act in high-minded chivalrous manner.)
22nd Feb '16 10:15:07 AM AdamKeller
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* ''Literature/WithFireAndSword'' (Polish: ''Ogniem i mieczem''), is an 1884 historical novel by the Polish author HenrykSienkiewicz set during the 17th century Khmelnytsky Uprising which ended Polish rule in what is now the Ukraine. In one of the early scenes, the Ukrainian rebels capture a town where there is a force of German mercenaries. The Ukrainians suggest that the mercenaries change sides and offer them a better contract than they had from their Polish employers. "You are mercenaries, this is not your war, what do you mind on whose side you fight?" But the mercenaries' commander answers "In three months' time our contract to the King of Poland ends. Tehn, we will be happy to sign a new contract with you". The Ukrainian says: "You don't have three months, we have to move on and can't afford to have at our back a force loyal to the King of Poland. If you don't change sides now, we will be forced to fight you. You are surrounded and greatly outnumbered!". To which the German answers: "It is our honor to be loyal to our contract and our employer, whatever the cost. If we lose our honor, we have nothing left". Thereupon, the mercenaries fight to the death against impossible odds rather than betray their contract, dying to the last and extracting a heavy price from the Ukrainians . (It is noteworthy that Sienkiewicz was an outspoken RomanticWriter, and the characters in his books - minor and major, heroes and villains alike - often tend to act in high-minded chivalrous manner.)

to:

* ''Literature/WithFireAndSword'' (Polish: ''Ogniem i mieczem''), is an 1884 historical novel by the Polish author HenrykSienkiewicz set during the 17th century Khmelnytsky Uprising which ended Polish rule in what is now the Ukraine. In one of the early scenes, the Ukrainian rebels capture a town where there is a force of German mercenaries. The Ukrainians suggest that the mercenaries change sides and offer them a better contract than they had from their Polish employers. "You are mercenaries, this is not your war, what do you mind on whose side you fight?" But the mercenaries' commander answers "In three months' time our contract to the King of Poland ends. Tehn, Then, we will be happy to sign a new contract with you". The Ukrainian says: "You don't have three months, we have to move on and can't afford to have at our back a force loyal to the King of Poland. If you don't change sides now, we will be forced to fight you. You are surrounded and greatly outnumbered!". To which the German answers: "It is our honor to be loyal to our contract and our employer, whatever the cost. If we lose our honor, we have nothing left". Thereupon, the mercenaries fight to the death against impossible odds rather than betray their contract, dying to the last and extracting a heavy price from the Ukrainians . (It is noteworthy that Sienkiewicz was an outspoken RomanticWriter, Romantic writer, and the characters in his books - minor and major, heroes and villains alike - often tend to act in high-minded chivalrous manner.)
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