History Headscratchers / UminekoWhenTheyCry

* [[spoiler: The entire Yasu multiple personality deal confuses me completely. How can Shannon possibly disguise herself as Kanon while having [[GagBoobs breasts THAT big?]] And how can she and Beatrice be one and the same and yet two separate entities at the same time?]]

* A lot of theories are discussed in the WMG using the Knox Decalogue, I discovered Wiki/TVTropes not so long ago so I wanted to know, how did you guys manage to discuss theories before episode 5 and the introduction of the Knox Decalogue in Umineko? I know that the Knox Decalogue is a real life thing btw. Wasn't the WMG really messy back then?

*** Maria's knowledge is true, but she knows a lot less them it seems. For starters, the Scorpion Amulet is hinted to be a simple toy, not a genuine charm. Her Hebrew is crappy because she doesn't really know the language but instead, memorized how to 'draw' the magic circles from books. In [=EP7=] [[spoiler:it is revealed it was ''Maria'' who taught Beatrice. This, however, doesn't mean she is all the knowledgeable in the occult, but rather that the murderers happen following the few things Maria knows]]. Maria only knows about some random specific topics but as, 'by chance', Beatrice used pentagrams Maria knew and Maria is the only one explaining them to Battler, it seems her knowledge is more vast than it actually is.

* A lot of theories are discussed in the WMG using the Knox Decalogue, I discovered Wiki/TVTropes not so long ago so I wanted to know, how did you guys managed to discuss theories before episode 5 and the introduction of Knox Decalogue in Umineko? I know that Know decalogue is a real life thing btw.Wasn't the WMG really messy back then?

*** Exactly. Since the reveal that every single game is fiction in-universe (the bottled messages in EP1 and 2 and Hachijo Tohya's writings afterwards), the truth of the matter is that the meta-world is just characters in a fictional story analyzing their own fictional story for the benefit of the readers who are also fictional characters and reading the story for the sake of the actual, real life readers. Ryukishi's writing is kind of twisted like that...

* Lately, I've been wondering, how much of Beato's behavior in EP3 was actually regret at what she'd done, and how much of it was just manipulating Battler to try to get him to recognize her? A lot of the things she does seem genuine, but then she simply undoes it all, seemingly.

* The anime's way of censoring. Why can't they use the same technique they used for [[VisualNovel/HigurashiWhenTheyCry Higurashi]] (just darkening it)? The censors look pretty awkward.

* In EP1, Battler comments that Beatrice can't be Japanese because she has blonde hair. Jessica is right next to him.

*** EP7 almost outright states that the appearance of the characters presented to us in the novel isn't necessarily what they actually look like. It seems to be acknowledged that from the point of view of the characters, they're all normal black haired asians and such.

* It's forbidden to directly confirm or deny the existence of magic in red, and any statement in blue needs to be countered in red. Given this, couldn't the blue truth be used to stop Battler from using the Devil's Proof, for example "[[color:blue:The small bombs were made using magic.]]", would require Battler to explain how the small bombs were made as he wouldn't be able to say "The small bombs weren't made with magic" in red even if it is true.

* Without having read the manga, played the games, etc, only watched the anime, I'm asking here. Is Maria...Developmentally challenged, shall we say? Nine is a little old to still have imaginary friends, be so childish, and suchlike. I mean, she has excuses for it if she isn't, but... Also, is it just me, or was Rosa ''extremely'' bipolar in the first and second Mysteries? In the third she seemed to genuinely care for Maria, and in the fourth, she was a ''complete'' psycho hose beast who deserved everything she got. Given these apparent differences before they got to the island, I'm thinking this isn't different versions of the mystery, but whole different worlds, with possibly changed backstories, much like what Rika was going through in Higurashi. This is all probably page 1 stuff from the non-anime stuff, but like I said...
** Maria's childish behavior is one of the reasons for Rosa acting the way she acts. She is not sure how to raise a child, but she ''is'' sure she is doing something wrong. For Rosa, yeah, I guess you could call her bipolar. She does obviously care for Maria, in a way, as seem in the 2nd and 3rd arc, but, at same time, she doesn't. This is probably also one of the reasons Maria is childish.
** As far as episode 4 scenes go. Keep in mind Maria was sleeping at that time, and after MARIA was "done", Maria woke up. So that was probably just a dream. However an important scene (as far as their relationship goes) that was cut before Rosa smashed one of Maria's little rabbit figurines, sows that Maria had been taking the dolls to school and playing with them in class. The teacher confronted Rosa and Rosa defended (probably forcefully) Maria saying she wouldn't do that. Turns out she was completely wrong so she punished Maria. Also some new information about Maria's father explains Rosa's treatment of Maria.

** Mind you, Rosa is shown to be a lot less horrific when shown from a reliable perspective; Maria is most certainly not reliable. Note that part of the problem with all of this is that flashbacks are given with unclear times, particularly Maria's. [[spoiler: It is known that Rosa watched the actual Beatrice die, and blames herself for it — Beatrice (II) was kept hidden away in the Kuwadorian as Kinzo's mistress, which Rosa stumbled upon as a young girl. Beatrice pleads with Rosa, and Rosa helps her escape… and because this is ''Umineko'', the ground caves in along the cliffs, and she falls to her death. Rosa did nothing wrong — she freed a woman trapped by and forced into incest with her father — and for it, gets to live a life of terrible guilt believing she killed her; something wonderful she gets to remember every time Maria mentions "Beatrice"]]. Another thing to note that other than that, Rosa's neglectful treatment seems to stem from [[spoiler: genuinely working, as opposed to having secret relationships with the boyfriend Maria suspects to exist — it's mentioned at one point that Rosa hasn't been able to have a romantic relationship since Maria's birth; other than that, the only evidence is Maria's dream sequence (during which Rosa is horrifically murdered by her own daughter hundreds of times… ''totally'' not biased at all) where Maria finds a receipt for an inn Rosa stayed at. Episode 5 suggested that she actually went to see Rudolph and Eva about confronting Krauss, and was felt guilty for having left Maria alone; when she is asked why she didn't bring Maria, Rosa says that she never wants Maria to have to worry about Rosa's own problems, and to never discuss the issue of the inheritance in her presence]]. It should also be mentioned that [[spoiler: Rosa's own monetary problems exist because she cosigned a loan with Maria's father, hoping he'd become a good father if she paid it off]] — and that this is the reason her business is in trouble.
** Another thing to mentioned is that while Maria was RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap in the eyes of some of the fandom after Episode 4, [[spoiler: it is known openly that Maria knew about a number of the murders before they took place, and that the Beatrice she worships is actually a delusion murderer — and yet, she idolizes her to the point that Maria ''was in the room while "Beatrice" murdered Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa (very, very loudly), and failed to realize something was wrong''. Driving this home, Maria makes mention of the fact the Kumasawa ''was screaming for her not to kill them'', and still continues to idolize Beatrice, to the point where she runs up and hugs her ''right after she kills Natsuhi'']]. Maria is also known to fantasize about the people she dislikes being [[spoiler:killed violently over and over again, and is explicitly noted she does this with Rosa and some of the bullies, and it is implied this also happened with Battler]]… not only that, but she ''delights in them''.

** There's the fact she believes everything will be perfect when Beatrice takes them to the Golden Land, which will include Mama being nice to her and always being home. No longer being lonely and abuse might make it okay for Maria to let Beatrice do whatever is necessary to go to the Golden Land, even just sing while others are being killed...

* Also, about Beato...in the anime at least, after Battler refuses to play during Evatrice's rampage, Beato's basically told straight out that Battler doesn't want to admit that witches exist because she's acting like a psycho hose beast. He even seems...while not ''okay'' with it, ''understanding'' of the fact she apparently needs to kill everyone for the ceremony. What does she then do? Try to trick him, while cackling like a psycho hose beast. Is this poor writing, adaptation issue, Beato deliberately (Or unconsciously) sabotaging herself or is Beato simply an ''idiot''?

* How was [[color:red:Natsuhi is not the culprit,]] a violation of Knox's second? If it had been accepted Battler and Erika would have "proven" that only a witch could have committed the first twilight murders. Which is the exact opposite of what the detective is suppose to do. And thus it wasn't using supernatural means as a detective, but using supernatural means as an anti-detective.

* Doesn't the Blue Truth hurt Battler rather then help him? For example, early in the third game Battler demands that Beato repeat "All six were killed by other people" (or something to the effect) when she refuses he claims that the refusal is the same as resigning. She tries to counter by saying [[color:red:None of the six people committed suicide!]], but ultimately resigns. Couldn't he have used the same argument in the fourth game?

** The end of EP2. Basically, Beato tortures and humiliates him a little bit to get him riled up, lets him get back up, and keeps playing without missing a beat. Beatrice's entire personality in the meta-world is based around getting Battler to take things personally, because that's the only way to get him to start using his head.

* Doesn't the Anti-Fantasy side have a huge advantage regardless of whether magic exists or not? Let's suppose magic really does exist. How would Ryukishi07 show this? It was established early on that its against the rules to directly confirm the existence of magic with red truth, and even if the characters in the story can't come up with a mundane explanation (or choose not to), there's always the possibility that the readers will come up with something.

** Actually, it is. And it is part of the point. Battler(the Anti-Fantasy side) has a clear winning condition, while Beatrice(the Anti-Mystery) has not. This reflect the fact [[spoiler:Beatrice actually does not want to win at all, but to make Battler win]].

** When was the red text ever invalidated? The only thing I can think of that even comes close is the end puzzle of EP6, and even that has at least two readings that don't create a contradiction.
*** Episode 2, with hindsight from Episode 6: [[color:red:Kanon died in this room!]]. But by the time you know ''why'' this seems like a lie, you also know why it's not one from Beatrice's POV.

*** Yea, and? [[color:blue:It's a boiler room door, not a courtyard door.]]
*** [[color:red:It's a door between the boiler room and the courtyard, which makes it a both a boiler room door and a courtyard door.]]

** Partly because a lot of the complainers don't understand author-theory. Another part is that Hachijou successfully said in red that there is only One Truth in EP8. The other kakera can be real, I guess, but they can't be AS real. There has to be a hierarchy or we have plotholes.

*** Even still, there's only one truth, otherwise there could be no lies. If all worlds are equally valid, then I can just say that this kakera Person X wrote about is the truth. If all universes are real, no truth is more valid over any other truth and this entire series has been utterly pointless. What's the point in Ange's journey for the truth if any answer she's given is as satisfactory as any other answer? Also, as a significant strike against the kakera thing, EP8 describes how the kakera began collapsing and falling into a single possibility, a single Truth, the more Erika's team burned away at the Golden Land and the illusion of the witch. The implication we've been told over and over is that the "possibilities" only exist as long as the box is closed. Once it's opened, there's only one truth. Period.

* According to the "Red Key" tip "evasion is impossible" in that case shouldn't tricks like [[color:red:Kanon was killed in this room.]] But, Yasu is still alive be impossible.

*** Fair enough. However, [[color:red:All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!]] Assuming that Yasu is human this means that Yasu couldn't have abandoned Kanon in that game. The only way Yasu could be rendered unable to abandon Kanon is if Yasu herself was killed. Who killed Yasu and when was she killed?

*** If I may offer up some theories… [[color:blue:Kanon is never called a 'human', isn't that correct? He is always referred to as a 'person'. Taking the red into account, it may be theorized that a 'human' is a biological structure of the species recognized as human, regardless of whether the body is in a state of life or death. The conundrum of Furudo Erika proves this fact, as she states:]] '[[color:red:I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!]]' This is responded to with '[[color:red: Even if you do join us-There are 17 people.]]' [[color:blue:The truth behind this paradox is that the human Furudo Erika is a corpse by the time she reaches Rokkenjima, and is no longer considered a 'person'. Yasu is, for any number of reasons, not considered a 'person' or a 'human'. However, note this: Krauss, Eva, Rudolph, Rosa, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Jessica, George, Battler, Maria, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kannon, Kumasawa, Nanjo — these are the '17 people'. However, Erika's statement proves that there are eighteen humans. Add Kinzo's corpse and hers to the count, and the number of bodies would be nineteen, right? So you have to remove one 'human' — namely, there is one among the 'people' who is not 'human'. This should prove that the red text relies on exact words — and part of that allows for 'death' to occur to non-human beings. There is no contradiction.]] …Although instead of going through all of that, why don't I just do this? [[color:blue:You misinterpreted the TIP. The phrase in its original context refers to the ''targets'' of the red text, when it is used to deny a concept — not that the user is incapable of any form of deception. The meaning stands as being 'If someone were to state in red, 'witches do not exist', 'Beatrice' and all other witches would be denied and cease to exist, with no possibility for evasion or resurrection.']] And if you wish to take issue with either of those — [[color:blue:the TIP also states: "In this world, Senator Lambdadelta has placed restrictions on its use and power." So really, no matter what route, it is a non-issue.]]

*** However, Erika does infact see Shannon and Kanon in the same room in EP5. One of Lambadelta's red statements says something along the lines of "Erika adds 1 to the total number of people on the island. Including Erika, there are 18 people on the island. Erika has no influence on the number of people in the previous games. Besides Erika, the number of people on the island is the same as in pervious games. i.e. This red statement barrage means that EP1-4 had 17 people. Other red statements use "Human", "Person" and "People" interchangably. Since a human is defined as an actual physical body on the island, this rules out "personas" as they are not "humans", meaning that it is impossible for Shannon and Kanon to be the same person. Don't get me wrong, "personas" are a key part of the mystery. I just disagree as to who Yasu is the alternate persona of.

* Ok, why in Ep7 Battler do not return to Rokkenjima?.... No Ep8 Spoilers please...

* [[color:red:Knox's 9th. It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.]] is shown to mean "people can lie". First, why does that need to be a rule in the first place? Most would assume it to be the case by default. Second, given how it's worded wouldn't it have made more sense if it had meant "People other then the detective are allowed to present theories about how the crime was committed".

* I can swallow Maria watching Higurashi on TV, it being a cute cameo and all... but why is there Touhou cosplay in the second ark? I know that Touhou has a big following, but ''why is there Touhou cosplay in Umineko?''

** Honestly, accurate pop culture references for the 1980s aren't something you'll find in Umineko. Aside from the VideoGame/{{Touhou}} references, there's also the fact that Sakutaro is partially named after the heroine of Manga/CardcaptorSakura, which is supposed to be Maria's favourite show even though it didn't air on television until 1998. It's really just something you'll have to take with a grain of salt.

* Ok This has been bugging for the longest time in EP 1 Where did the extra body come from? I know Shannon stuffs her bra but other characters don't know that, so who does the body dead of Not-Shannon belong to? I would be very thankful in knowing.

* Why is everyone giving up once they think they've found an answer that works? Take Kanon's EP2 death for example. Everyone just goes [[spoiler:Yasu disowns Kanon and therefore he's dead.]] But if that's so, who murders George and Godha? You have to realise that [[color:red:Kanon died in this room!]] doesn't specify a time. You could easily say that he is the culprit and happens to be in there at 24:00, when none are left alive. It's rather odd to not have seen this theory already...

* In EP5 I always wondered why Erika was so focused on Natsuhi being the culprit. She claims that it was Natsuhi, but that itself is a violation of Knox's 1st, which claims that "the criminal must be mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to know." Because we've followed Natsuhi's thoughts through EP5, doesn't that mean (at least from a meta level) that Natsuhi cannot be the culprit? Furthermore, when Battler states in Red that Natsuhi cannot be the culprit and Dlanor states that violates Knox's 2nd, couldn't he have used Knox's 1st as proof?

* Regarding the anime, there's one thing that always stood out in EP1/the first arc that I never understood. In episode three of the anime, Maria says "The culprit isn't human. It's the _____ chosen by the _____." What in the world do those blanks stand for?

** It's really not a headscratcher. The Red always has to be treated in context. In EP6 there are entire, multiple sentence long segments that are functionally Red because they have been 'Acknowledged' in Red right afterwards. By your logic only, since only the word 'Acknowledged' was in red, only that one would would be treated as absolute truth, which is just silly.

* The anime's way of censoring. Why can't they use the same technique they used for Higurashi (just darkening it)? The censors look pretty awkward.

* What's the deal with both Virgilia and Gaap being Beatrice from "magic is real" point of view? I get that Gaap is manifestation of ghost story part of Beatrice's image and Virgilia is manifestation of local spirit stories told to [[spoiler: Yasu]] by Kumasawa, but doesn't change the fact that there are two witches with the same name (and not namesakes) at the same time. It also doesn't logically make sense that [[spoiler: Yasu]] would think of two entities as the same and different things mutually. And what about Virgilia's name? She decided at this name only when she was awaken in the third game, during a conversation with Battler and yet she's being called by that name in flashbacks that take place before October 4.

* What's the deal with both Virgilia and Gaap being Beatrice from "magic is real" point of view? I get that Gaap is manifestation of ghost story part of Beatrice's image and Virgilia is manifestation of local spirit stories told to [[spoiler: Yasu]] by Kumasawa, but doesn't change the fact that there are two witches with the same name (and not namesakes) at the same time. It also doesn't logically make sense that [[[spoiler: Yasu]] would think of two entities as the same and different things mutually. And what about Virgilia's name? She decided at this name only when she was awaken in the third game, during a conversation with Battler and yet she's being called by that name in flashbacks that take place before October 4.

* What's the deal with both Virgilia and Gaap being Beatrice from "magic is real" point of view? I get that Gaap is manifestation of ghost story part of Beatrice's image and Virgilia is manifestation of local spirit stories told to [[Yasu]] by Kumasawa, but doesn't change the fact that there are two witches with the same name (and not namesakes) at the same time. It also doesn't logically make sense that [[[Yasu]] would think of two entities as the same and different things mutually.
And what about Virgilia's name? She decided at this name only when she was awaken in the third game, during a conversation with Battler and yet she's being called by that name in flashbacks that take place before October 4.