History Headscratchers / Thor

30th Mar '18 12:21:01 PM Hjortron18
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[[folder:How does Thor know that the "satellite" is Mjolnir?]]
* The men in the diner mention that the item that crashed in the desert is heavy and cannot be lifted, and Thor starts smiling and immediately knows that they're talking about Mjolnir. But as we know, Mjolnir isn't actually ''heavy''. And by this point, Thor doesn't know yet that Odin put an enchantment on it (since Odin threw the hammer after him and he didn't hear his father whispering the enchantment, did he?), so to Thor, Mjolnir must still be just a powerful warhammer. So how does he know that this item that no one can lift is Mjolnir?
[[/folder]]
18th Mar '18 1:22:23 PM Hjortron18
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** Using 900 A.D. as reference[[note]]The battle between the Jotuns and Asgardians is shown at the beginning of the film, with "900 A.D" onscreen. Odin lost his eye in the battle and it's still bleeding when he finds baby Loki.[[/note]], in 2013 Loki would be at least 1113 years old. Thor is presumably not much older than Loki, as their actors are nearly the same age.[[note]]Chris Hemsworth was 28 and Tom Hiddleston was 31 when filming. Dakota Goyo (young Thor) and Ted Allpress (young Loki) were both almost 12.[[/note]]

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** Using 900 965 A.D. as reference[[note]]The battle between the Jotuns and Asgardians is shown at the beginning of the film, with "900 "965 A.D" onscreen. Odin lost his eye in the battle and it's still bleeding when he finds baby Loki.[[/note]], in 2013 Loki would be at least 1113 1048 years old. Thor is presumably not much older than Loki, as their actors are nearly the same age.[[note]]Chris Hemsworth was 28 and Tom Hiddleston was 31 when filming. Dakota Goyo (young Thor) and Ted Allpress (young Loki) were both almost 12.[[/note]]



** [[VoodooShark That Just Raises Further Questions]] because references to Thor, Loki and Odin are ''much'' older than 900 AD. Unless Odin visited Earth before and was actually inspired by the myths, and named his kids after them. Or Norse Mythology is very different in the movie universe.

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** [[VoodooShark That Just Raises Further Questions]] because references to Thor, Loki and Odin are ''much'' older than 900 965 AD. Unless Odin visited Earth before and was actually inspired by the myths, and named his kids after them. Or Norse Mythology is very different in the movie universe.



** ''Thor:Ragnarok'' shows that it is back in Asgard. Or was...

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** ''Thor:Ragnarok'' shows that it the Casket is back in Asgard. Or was...



[[folder:Why is Loki een as a woobie?]]

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[[folder:Why is Loki een seen as a woobie?]]



[[folder:Why Heimdall is supposed to be the most powerful Asgardian?]]

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[[folder:Why is Heimdall is supposed to be the most powerful Asgardian?]]



[[folder:Odin calling Thor vain etc.]]

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[[folder:Odin calling Thor vain etc.]]greedy and cruel]]


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** It is possible that Sleipnir is faster than normal horses because he has additional legs and that Odin rode there on him.
15th Mar '18 2:10:10 PM Hjortron18
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** Also, I'd imagine there's a difference between 'A Wormhole Generator' and 'Bifrost', seeing as the latter can teleport anything to anywhere in the universe, so that even for Asgardians recreating it would be non-trivial. Plus, for all their power Asgardians don't have access to a Cosmic Cube like [[FunWithAcronynms SHIELD]] does. But mostly, I'd just imagine Thor was speaking figuratively and dramatically [[LargeHam as is his want]].

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** Also, I'd imagine there's a difference between 'A Wormhole Generator' and 'Bifrost', seeing as the latter can teleport anything to anywhere in the universe, so that even for Asgardians recreating it would be non-trivial. Plus, for all their power Asgardians don't have access to a Cosmic Cube like [[FunWithAcronynms [[FunWithAcronyms SHIELD]] does. But mostly, I'd just imagine Thor was speaking figuratively and dramatically [[LargeHam as is his want]].




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[[/folder]]



* Loki picking up the Casket the first time: is the big deal is that only a Frost Giant can pick up the box? If so, who picked it up at the temple? In the flashback/backstory scene, it sure looks like someone is already wearing Loki's fabulous helmet. Is this PreviousIncarnation!Loki?

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* Loki picking up the Casket the first time: is the big deal is that only a Frost Giant can pick up the box? If so, who picked it up at the temple? In the flashback/backstory scene, it sure looks like someone is already wearing Loki's fabulous helmet. Is this PreviousIncarnation!Loki?[=PreviousIncarnation=]!Loki?




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[[/folder]]



** Plus, look at the family. Thor, Loki, and Odin, are all LargeHams. The royal guards are definitely used to them yelling at each other, and have probably learned a long time ago to just turn their head and try not to listen in on the family drama, but they'll still come when summoned.

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** Plus, look at the family. Thor, Loki, and Odin, are all LargeHams.{{Large Ham}}s. The royal guards are definitely used to them yelling at each other, and have probably learned a long time ago to just turn their head and try not to listen in on the family drama, but they'll still come when summoned.
15th Mar '18 2:02:45 PM Hjortron18
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New entries go on the bottom. Headscratchers for the sequel go [[Headscratchers/ThorTheDarkWorld here]]

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Entire New entries go on the bottom. Headscratchers for the sequel go [[Headscratchers/ThorTheDarkWorld here]]



[[folder: Magi-Tech, Science, History, Alien Biology, and related things.]]

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[[folder: Magi-Tech, Science, History, Alien Biology, and related things.]]

[[folder:Magic=science?]]



** Yes, sort of. There are three bits I would emphasize as far as my theory goes. The first is that Asgardian "magic weapons" would probably be, at least in part, powered and controlled by Asgardian natural powers. So when an Asgardian learns and masters a weapon, they literally connect to it and fuel it with their own might. If this theory is correct, than any Asgardian device more complicated than a simple object probably can't be used properly by a mortal, because they can't interface with it. The second is that "physical might" is its own valid power, which Thor ( and most Asgardian warriors ) clearly have in excess of Loki. Not all Asgardians are equal. Third and finally, I would emphasize that to Asgardians, their powers are likely *trainable*. Thor isn't as bricky as he is, just because he is, but because he sought to make himself bricky. Loki didn't just pull illusion powers out of his ass, he *learned* how to do them.

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** Yes, sort of. There are three bits I would emphasize as far as my theory goes. The first is that Asgardian "magic weapons" would probably be, at least in part, powered and controlled by Asgardian natural powers. So when an Asgardian learns and masters a weapon, they literally connect to it and fuel it with their own might. If this theory is correct, than any Asgardian device more complicated than a simple object probably can't be used properly by a mortal, because they can't interface with it. The second is that "physical might" is its own valid power, which Thor ( and (and most Asgardian warriors ) warriors) clearly have in excess of Loki. Not all Asgardians are equal. Third and finally, I would emphasize that to Asgardians, their powers are likely *trainable*.''trainable''. Thor isn't as bricky as he is, just because he is, but because he sought to make himself bricky. Loki didn't just pull illusion powers out of his ass, he *learned* ''learned'' how to do them.



** Presumably the Asgardians have developed a Grand Unified Theory that unites what mortals call science and magic - maybe what we call magic is, in Asgardian terms, bits of the universe that can be controlled directly, and science is the stuff that can only be manipulated and taken advantage of with tech and stuff rather than directly made a plaything of our thoughts?

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** Presumably the Asgardians have developed a Grand Unified Theory that unites what mortals call science and magic - -- maybe what we call magic is, in Asgardian terms, bits of the universe that can be controlled directly, and science is the stuff that can only be manipulated and taken advantage of with tech and stuff rather than directly made a plaything of our thoughts?




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Bifrost opening in New Mexico]]



** We saw the Bifrost open a portal to Tonsberg in the beginning of the movie so its likely that the Bifrost can indeed take you to different places in the same realm. The theory that Yggdrasil is actually a natural wormhole network has been thrown around on this page and if its true then that could tell us a few things about the Bifrost. Instead of opening its own bridges it could fire some sort of beam or matter stream into Yggdrasil itself and you come out of one of the "Roots" of the tree with these "Roots" being pre-established but closed openings in the network. This means that sure it can take you to Norway or New Mexico or a hundred other locales on the planet but it can only deposit you on one of those predetermined places. As for why the Hammer fell so far away? It looks like it emerged from the matter stream at a very high altitude (possibly even low orbit) which means that it simply drifted off course as it fell to earth.

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** We saw the Bifrost open a portal to Tonsberg in the beginning of the movie so its it's likely that the Bifrost can indeed take you to different places in the same realm. The theory that Yggdrasil is actually a natural wormhole network has been thrown around on this page and if its true then that could tell us a few things about the Bifrost. Instead of opening its own bridges it could fire some sort of beam or matter stream into Yggdrasil itself and you come out of one of the "Roots" of the tree with these "Roots" being pre-established but closed openings in the network. This means that sure it can take you to Norway or New Mexico or a hundred other locales on the planet but it can only deposit you on one of those predetermined places. As for why the Hammer fell so far away? It looks like it emerged from the matter stream at a very high altitude (possibly even low orbit) which means that it simply drifted off course as it fell to earth.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Nature of the Nine Realms]]



** I think its deliberately vague. The only theory posted was Bifrost uses different dimensions by Erik at the end in a scene where he would not be lying. Asgard is a floating landmass that somehow keeps its water, but one could argue that is something about how the Asgardians made it. Its unclear if they truly are different planets or dimensions or some combination.

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** I think its deliberately vague. The only theory posted was Bifrost uses different dimensions by Erik at the end in a scene where he would not be lying. Asgard is a floating landmass that somehow keeps its water, but one could argue that is something about how the Asgardians made it. Its It's unclear if they truly are different planets or dimensions or some combination.




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Construction of the Bifrost]]



** Yea, you would assume that since they control it that they have also built it at some point right? And even then, some of the Asgardians like Odin, Loki, and Sif were able to transport themselves and others to the mortal realm. So this shouldn't be a huge problem if not for RuleOfDrama.

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** Yea, Yeah, you would assume that since they control it that they have also built it at some point right? And even then, some of the Asgardians like Odin, Loki, and Sif were able to transport themselves and others to the mortal realm. So this shouldn't be a huge problem if not for RuleOfDrama.



** Who says they are unable to rebuild it, fully? Thor said to Heimdall that 'Midgard was lost to us', but it was clear to all involved that the context he meant that statement was 'Jane Foster and the other humans I met are lost to me.' For that, being able to rebuild Bifrost *eventually* wouldn't mean much, if "eventually" means "years or decades later."

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** Who says they are unable to rebuild it, fully? Thor said to Heimdall that 'Midgard was lost to us', but it was clear to all involved that the context he meant that statement was 'Jane Foster and the other humans I met are lost to me.' For that, being able to rebuild Bifrost *eventually* ''eventually'' wouldn't mean much, if "eventually" means "years or decades later."



** I'm sure there's a trope about this. Asgardians are immortal. They're in no hurry to get it done because they've got all the time in the world. If it takes a hundred years(and for all we know maybe it did take hundreds of years to build the Bifrost the first time) that's no skin off their noses. Conversely, Humans are often noted in fiction to be able to accomplish a great deal in a short amount of time because they've got such limited lifespans that they have to squeeze everything in to a scant 60-100 years.

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** I'm sure there's a trope about this. Asgardians are immortal. They're in no hurry to get it done because they've got all the time in the world. If it takes a hundred years(and years (and for all we know maybe it did take hundreds of years to build the Bifrost the first time) that's no skin off their noses. Conversely, Humans are often noted in fiction to be able to accomplish a great deal in a short amount of time because they've got such limited lifespans that they have to squeeze everything in to a scant 60-100 years.




* When Thor tries and fails to lift Mjolnir, he instantly knows this is because he is no longer worthy - even though Odin only added that spell to the hammer after tossing Thor off Bifrost...

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Thor knowing of the enchantment]]
* When Thor tries and fails to lift Mjolnir, he instantly knows this is because he is no longer worthy - -- even though Odin only added that spell to the hammer after tossing Thor off Bifrost...



** I'm not certain that Thor realized the "not worthy" aspect. I think he thought, as Loki puts it in his visit, that Odin was being cruel- putting his hammer so close, but not allowing him to use it. When he saw the "Odin Symbol", he just knew an enchantment had been placed on it- not what the enchantment was.

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** I'm not certain that Thor realized the "not worthy" aspect. I think he thought, as Loki puts it in his visit, that Odin was being cruel- cruel -- putting his hammer so close, but not allowing him to use it. When he saw the "Odin Symbol", he just knew an enchantment had been placed on it- it -- not what the enchantment was.




* At the beginning of the film, when Odin and the army bifrost in to fight the frost giants, how did they all teleport at once like that? From what I saw, the Bifrost Bridge was ''not'' that large.

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Teleporting an entire army at one time]]
* At the beginning of the film, when Odin and the army bifrost Bifrost in to fight the frost giants, Frost Giants, how did they all teleport at once like that? From what I saw, the Bifrost Bridge was ''not'' that large.




* Okay, so for the Aesir, magitech is super-advanced. I can accept that. It makes bladed weapons better than projectile weapons- I can accept that, probably has to do with sharpness and weight enhancing plus logistics of mystically enhancing bullets individually. But, why horses? Judging from the shape and placement of Asgard, they have anti-gravity and air generation for a city-sized island of land floating in space, but they still rely on equestrian mobility?

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Why use horses?]]
* Okay, so for the Aesir, magitech is super-advanced. I can accept that. It makes bladed weapons better than projectile weapons- weapons -- I can accept that, probably has to do with sharpness and weight enhancing plus logistics of mystically enhancing bullets individually. But, why horses? Judging from the shape and placement of Asgard, they have anti-gravity and air generation for a city-sized island of land floating in space, but they still rely on equestrian mobility?



** Also, its probable safe to assume anything in the Asgardian realm is far superior to its Earth variant. In the comics a flying horses are pretty much equal or superior to the modern aircraft. In the film, Odin had a horse with eight-legs. So for them horses being equal or superior to cars works.
** I would be deeply amused if, in a future Thor movie, some mortal soldiers from Earth open fire on a mounted Asgardian, and not only do the bullets bounce of the Asgardian, but off his horse too. . .

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** Also, its it's probable safe to assume anything in the Asgardian realm is far superior to its Earth variant. In the comics a flying horses are pretty much equal or superior to the modern aircraft. In the film, Odin had a horse with eight-legs. So for them horses being equal or superior to cars works.
** I would be deeply amused if, in a future Thor movie, some mortal soldiers from Earth open fire on a mounted Asgardian, and not only do the bullets bounce of the Asgardian, but off his horse too. . .too...



** In the myth, Sleipnir is capable of running between the worlds without aid of bifrost, which is how Odin is able to show up unexpectedly. For that matter so can Thor and his goats. The movie weakens some of the Aesir in that it seems they ''all'' need the rainbow bridge except for Loki, who never demonstrated the ability to cross worlds without help in the myths we know of.

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** In the myth, Sleipnir is capable of running between the worlds without aid of bifrost, the Bifrost, which is how Odin is able to show up unexpectedly. For that matter so can Thor and his goats. The movie weakens some of the Aesir in that it seems they ''all'' need the rainbow bridge except for Loki, who never demonstrated the ability to cross worlds without help in the myths we know of.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Only ''Nine'' Realms?]]



** First I'm not entirely sure whether the realms were meant to be other planets in the same universe or actual different dimensions associated with Earth (see my own headscratcher above). But if they were different planets, I'd say that 'The Realms' refers to the set of nine inhabited planets that share a mix of sufficiently advanced technology and magitec of a power comparable to the Asgardians, while having a long shared history of inter-world commerce enabled by Bifrost. In fact, going by the Myths, you could also say that the races of The Realms share a common heritage and later diverged. Maybe these nine planets form a natural wormhole network that allowed the original expansion?
** The post-credits scene mentioned "dimensions." Based on this and the lack of the use of the world planets I take it the nine "realms" are nine different dimensions that are linked by naturally occurring wormholes/gates like in the comics. Bifrost and other such devices are just safe means to access these gates. Asgard at least seems to operate by different rules of physics by being a flat Earth instead of a round planet so it is a different dimension. So the nine realms are only those worlds the wormholes naturally go to. There could easily be other planets/dimensions out there, but the Asgardians do not overly concern themselves with them. However, based on some of the items in Odin's vault its clear Odin at least takes somewhat of an interest in them.
** It would beg the question of why Earth ( Midgard ) counts, given its relatively primitive tech/magic base and squishy mortal residents. However, bear in mind there are enough different realms in both Norse myth and Thor comics to easily provide for nine of them *and* Midgard.

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** First I'm not entirely sure whether the realms were meant to be other planets in the same universe or actual different dimensions associated with Earth (see my own headscratcher above). But if they were different planets, I'd say that 'The Realms' refers to the set of nine inhabited planets that share a mix of sufficiently advanced technology and magitec of a power comparable to the Asgardians, while having a long shared history of inter-world commerce enabled by the Bifrost. In fact, going by the Myths, you could also say that the races of The Realms share a common heritage and later diverged. Maybe these nine planets form a natural wormhole network that allowed the original expansion?
** The post-credits scene mentioned "dimensions." Based on this and the lack of the use of the world planets I take it the nine "realms" are nine different dimensions that are linked by naturally occurring wormholes/gates like in the comics. The Bifrost and other such devices are just safe means to access these gates. Asgard at least seems to operate by different rules of physics by being a flat Earth instead of a round planet so it is a different dimension. So the nine realms are only those worlds the wormholes naturally go to. There could easily be other planets/dimensions out there, but the Asgardians do not overly concern themselves with them. However, based on some of the items in Odin's vault its clear Odin at least takes somewhat of an interest in them.
** It would beg the question of why Earth ( Midgard ) counts, given its relatively primitive tech/magic base and squishy mortal residents. However, bear in mind there are enough different realms in both Norse myth and Thor comics to easily provide for nine of them *and* ''and'' Midgard.



* Is Bifrost on Earth now?

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[[folder:Where did the Bifrost end up?]]
* Is the Bifrost on Earth now?



** As per Avengers, Loki made it to some unknown corner of space [[spoiler: where Thanos happened to be]], so the Bifrost chamber-thingy (which fell first) is either there or somewhere else.

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** As per Avengers, Loki made it to some unknown corner of space [[spoiler: where [[spoiler:where Thanos happened to be]], so the Bifrost chamber-thingy (which fell first) is either there or somewhere else.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Jotunheim being just a frozen wasteland]]



** Bear in mind their civilization was previously powered by the Cask. Jotunheim looked like a broken down wasteland probably in part because it *was* a broken down waste, deprived of its power source.

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** Bear in mind their civilization was previously powered by the Cask. Jotunheim looked like a broken down wasteland probably in part because it *was* ''was'' a broken down waste, deprived of its power source.



** Except it isn't really all that cold and frozen in the parts of Scandinavia that were inhabited by Vikings - certainly not ''most'' of the time (the average temperature is over zero for more than half of the year - and it was so back in the Viking era, too). And that myth, as the initial entry pointed out, already ''had'' a world for "frozen wasteland". Jotunheim is supposed to be an oversized place - harsher in the sense that its dangers are proportionate to its inhabitants, who are, lest one forget, only vaguely separated from the gods of the mythology (there are ''several'' cases of giants becoming gods by marriage and/or adoptive siblingship).

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** Except it isn't really all that cold and frozen in the parts of Scandinavia that were inhabited by Vikings - -- certainly not ''most'' of the time (the average temperature is over zero for more than half of the year - -- and it was so back in the Viking era, too). And that myth, as the initial entry pointed out, already ''had'' a world for "frozen wasteland". Jotunheim is supposed to be an oversized place - -- harsher in the sense that its dangers are proportionate to its inhabitants, who are, lest one forget, only vaguely separated from the gods of the mythology (there are ''several'' cases of giants becoming gods by marriage and/or adoptive siblingship).




* Why Hogun has an accent? He's an Asgardian, he should talk like everybody else.

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Hogun's accent]]
* Why does Hogun has have an accent? He's an Asgardian, he should talk like everybody else.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Other Giants from Jotunheim]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Where did Sleipnir go?]]



** Not to mention all the horses seem to just magically appear/vanish as needed. Thor & Co ride out to the Bifrost, then dismount and the horses go ...where? . Loki goes from being on foot in the palace to racing mounted across the Bifrost incredibly quickly, and the horse is definitely not hanging out on the bridge during the final battle.

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** Not to mention all the horses seem to just magically appear/vanish as needed. Thor & Co ride out to the Bifrost, then dismount and the horses go ...where? . go... where? Loki goes from being on foot in the palace to racing mounted across the Bifrost incredibly quickly, and the horse is definitely not hanging out on the bridge during the final battle.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:How did the Jotuns get to Earth?]]



** I always kind of figured that the Casket of Ancient Winters had something to do with it - like the Tesseract in Captain America - and when the giants lost the war they were sent home and the casket taken from them so they couldn't teleport anymore.

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** I always kind of figured that the Casket of Ancient Winters had something to do with it - -- like the Tesseract in Captain America - -- and when the giants Giants lost the war they were sent home and the casket Casket taken from them so they couldn't teleport anymore.




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Moving Mjolnir]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Bifrost storms detected on Earth]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Norse Mythology in the MCU]]




* What *were* those symbols that Coulson had someone from linguistics brought in to take a look at? Why did the Bifrost never create those symbols before?

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Symbols left by the Bifrost]]
* What *were* ''were'' those symbols that Coulson had someone from linguistics brought in to take a look at? Why did the Bifrost never create those symbols before?




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Hiding the adoption]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Dangers of leaving the Bifrost open]]




* Anyone know if there's any supplementary material or WordOfGod regarding whether or how Norse Mythology is different in the MCU than it is in RealLife? All we know from the films is that, in Marvel's Norse Mythology, the Tesseract does appear in some myth or other- because otherwise, how would the Red Skull know it was Odin's prized treasure? And we know that the appearance of the Gods was apparently well recorded here, since their outfits appear the same in that children's book as they do in person. So when young Bruce Banner read about Norse mythology, was he reading completely different stories than the ones we know?

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Norse Mythology in the MCU Part 2]]
* Anyone know if there's any supplementary material or WordOfGod regarding whether or how Norse Mythology is different in the MCU than it is in RealLife? All we know from the films is that, in Marvel's Norse Mythology, the Tesseract does appear in some myth or other- other -- because otherwise, how would the Red Skull know it was Odin's prized treasure? And we know that the appearance of the Gods was apparently well recorded here, since their outfits appear the same in that children's book as they do in person. So when young Bruce Banner read about Norse mythology, was he reading completely different stories than the ones we know?




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Women being warriors in Asgard]]




[[folder: Thor and Loki.]]

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\n[[folder: Thor and Loki.]]\n[[folder:Why stop Loki's plan?]]



** Personally I think they should have made that a lot more clearer. Every frost giant we meet is either evil or at least a physical threat to the protagonists. They should have specified that these are just the frost giant warriors, and there's millions of frost giant civilians out there who don't deserve to die. Then we'd have a clear moral reason for not destroying Jotunheim.

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** Personally I think they should have made that a lot more clearer. Every frost giant Frost Giant we meet is either evil or at least a physical threat to the protagonists. They should have specified that these are just the frost giant Frost Giant warriors, and there's millions of frost giant Frost Giant civilians out there who don't deserve to die. Then we'd have a clear moral reason for not destroying Jotunheim.




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Meaning of Loki's plan]]



** Yeah. Odin tells his sons to leave them alone because they'll start a war and war is terrible- but the war was about to be started anyway thanks to Thor. I think Loki figured that Odin would draw a distinction between 'attacking them in peacetime' and 'attacking them as supposed self defense'.

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** Yeah. Odin tells his sons to leave them alone because they'll start a war and war is terrible- terrible -- but the war was about to be started anyway thanks to Thor. I think Loki figured that Odin would draw a distinction between 'attacking them in peacetime' and 'attacking them as supposed self defense'.




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Illusionary powers of Frost Giants?]]



** he learned from the Asgardians

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** he He learned from the Asgardians



** In the flashback, we see Loki first transform as a baby while being held by Odin - presumably, Odin either activated latent shape-shifting powers in Loki, or gave them to him right then and there. As for the other giants, might depend on whether they can do magic or not, or a similar factor.
** If it was Loki doing that - and I personally think it was - it could also be construed as him instinctively taking the form most pleasing to the person holding him. Which, when you get right down to it, is the core element of Loki's personality in the film, and his relationship with Odin.

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** In the flashback, we see Loki first transform as a baby while being held by Odin - -- presumably, Odin either activated latent shape-shifting powers in Loki, or gave them to him right then and there. As for the other giants, might depend on whether they can do magic or not, or a similar factor.
** If it was Loki doing that - -- and I personally think it was - -- it could also be construed as him instinctively taking the form most pleasing to the person holding him. Which, when you get right down to it, is the core element of Loki's personality in the film, and his relationship with Odin.




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Odin's plans with Loki]]



** I read it as Odin could have been planning to marry Loki into Asgardian nobility - the way royal families have been doing for ages. Of course, that has the same issues as the hostage thing. "Hey, remember that baby you left to die forever ago? Yeah, I totally saved that baby, and brought him to Asgard, and now he's married to one of our nobles. We're cool, right?" I like the idea that Odin abandoned whatever plans he had for him a long time ago, as suggested above, a lot better.

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** I read it as Odin could have been planning to marry Loki into Asgardian nobility - -- the way royal families have been doing for ages. Of course, that has the same issues as the hostage thing. "Hey, remember that baby you left to die forever ago? Yeah, I totally saved that baby, and brought him to Asgard, and now he's married to one of our nobles. We're cool, right?" I like the idea that Odin abandoned whatever plans he had for him a long time ago, as suggested above, a lot better.




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Using Mjolnir as a tool to repair]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Thor vs. Taser]]



** Or more simply- "Where did you get your training? Afghanistan? Iraq" "ASGARD, MOTHER-LOVER!"

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** Or more simply- simply -- "Where did you get your training? Afghanistan? Iraq" "ASGARD, MOTHER-LOVER!"





* I'm not sure if this borders on PlotHole or not. But the whole impetus for Loki seizing power is Odin entering the Odinsleep. For those who don't know, in the comics The Odinsleep is a state of deep sleep where Odin essentially recharges his batteries, it's said explicitly by Loki when he and his mother speak at Odin's bedside that that's what he is doing. Okay. This wasn't the first Odinsleep by any stretch, nor the first one experienced by Loki or Asgard. Okay. So certainly there are plans in place for just who should command Asgard while Odin takes the Odinsleep, and given what he says to Thor about not being ready to be king, it seems to be that the task didn't simply fall to Odin's sons. Odin didn't think either of them were ready to rule. So logic tells us there must have been someone else watching over Asgard while Odin sleeps. If nothing else, Asgardian Law should provide for this while Odin takes a simple nap. So how come Loki becomes king at all? The Odinsleep was nothing new, it had been done before, and Odin didn't want his sons having that power...so why does he become king when Odin is not sick, not wounded, and actually not in danger of dying...or in fact is not doing anything out of the ordinary?
** Odin was sick and they were unsure if he was going to wake up. I think that is the difference. Several scenes from the trailers detailing Loki's ascension to power were cut from the actual film. A more detailed description of the Odinsleep was also lacking such as normal length. My guess would be normally the Odinsleep is so short (maybe a day or so like in the comics) that Frigga or the normal Asgardian bureaucracy could take care of things while Odin slept. This time around Odin was in a coma and they were unsure when or if he would ever wake up. Asgard was on the brink of war and their greatest warrior was banished. Morale would be pretty low. Since the role of king is highly symbolic as well a new king had to be crowned to deal with everything. Its saying: "Look, don't worry. We have a son of Odin leading us in this time of crisis" rather than just a regent or some bureaucrat who does not know how to truly rule.
** Odinsleep in general is no big deal, this particular one was unplanned, and much more severe, as evidenced by dialogue. It seems likely that Odin knows when he'll need to Odinsleep soon, and so makes preparations to be away for a little bit. This time, the stress of banishing Thor and having Loki learn his heritage, and throw it in Odin's face rather aggressively, triggered a premature and far deeper Odinsleep than usual, leaving Asgard in crisis. Add to that the potential impending war with Jotunheim, and it's no surprise the Asgardians would fall in line behind the only prince they had.

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\n\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:No precautions for the Odinsleep?]]
* I'm not sure if this borders on PlotHole or not. But the whole impetus for Loki seizing power is Odin entering the Odinsleep. For those who don't know, in the comics The Odinsleep is a state of deep sleep where Odin essentially recharges his batteries, it's said explicitly by Loki when he and his mother speak at Odin's bedside that that's what he is doing. Okay. This wasn't the first Odinsleep by any stretch, nor the first one experienced by Loki or Asgard. Okay. So certainly there are plans in place for just who should command Asgard while Odin takes the Odinsleep, and given what he says to Thor about not being ready to be king, it seems to be that the task didn't simply fall to Odin's sons. Odin didn't think either of them were ready to rule. So logic tells us there must have been someone else watching over Asgard while Odin sleeps. If nothing else, Asgardian Law should provide for this while Odin takes a simple nap. So how come Loki becomes king at all? The Odinsleep was nothing new, it had been done before, and Odin didn't want his sons having that power... so why does he become king when Odin is not sick, not wounded, and actually not in danger of dying...dying... or in fact is not doing anything out of the ordinary?
** Odin was sick and they were unsure if he was going to wake up. I think that is the difference. Several scenes from the trailers detailing Loki's ascension to power were cut from the actual film. A more detailed description of the Odinsleep was also lacking such as normal length. My guess would be normally the Odinsleep is so short (maybe a day or so like in the comics) that Frigga or the normal Asgardian bureaucracy could take care of things while Odin slept. This time around Odin was in a coma and they were unsure when or if he would ever wake up. Asgard was on the brink of war and their greatest warrior was banished. Morale would be pretty low. Since the role of king is highly symbolic as well a new king had to be crowned to deal with everything. Its It's saying: "Look, don't worry. We have a son of Odin leading us in this time of crisis" rather than just a regent or some bureaucrat who does not know how to truly rule.
** The Odinsleep in general is no big deal, this particular one was unplanned, and much more severe, as evidenced by dialogue. It seems likely that Odin knows when he'll need to Odinsleep soon, and so makes preparations to be away for a little bit. This time, the stress of banishing Thor and having Loki learn his heritage, and throw it in Odin's face rather aggressively, triggered a premature and far deeper Odinsleep than usual, leaving Asgard in crisis. Add to that the potential impending war with Jotunheim, and it's no surprise the Asgardians would fall in line behind the only prince they had.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Norse Mythology in the MCU Part 3]]




* Minor headscratcher: Loki wearing a suit on earth. Yes he looks gorgeous. And yes I fully approve. I just don't get ''why'' though. Nobody in the entire base can see him unless he wants them too! I mean, he managed to walk all the way up the hammer and grab it without a single SHIELD personnel questioning him. He could have just been in his normal horned armor and it would have been fine.

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Why is Loki wearing a suit?]]
* Minor headscratcher: Loki wearing a suit on earth. Yes Yes, he looks gorgeous. And yes yes, I fully approve. I just don't get ''why'' though. Nobody in the entire base can see him unless he wants them too! to! I mean, he managed to walk all the way up the hammer and grab it without a single SHIELD personnel questioning him. He could have just been in his normal horned armor and it would have been fine.




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Loki using the casket as a weapon]]




* Loki picking up the Casket the first time : is the big deal is that only a Frost Giant can pick up the box? If so, who picked it up at the temple? In the flashback/backstory scene, it sure looks like someone is already wearing Loki's fabulous helmet. Is this PreviousIncarnation!Loki?

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Can only Jotuns pick up the casket?]]
* Loki picking up the Casket the first time : time: is the big deal is that only a Frost Giant can pick up the box? If so, who picked it up at the temple? In the flashback/backstory scene, it sure looks like someone is already wearing Loki's fabulous helmet. Is this PreviousIncarnation!Loki?




to:

** About the helmet: That was an Einherjar, and their helmets do have horns, although they aren't bent back like Loki's.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Loki's hair colour]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Did Thor know of the adoption?]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Thor taking so long to get to the Bifrost]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Thor escaping from the hospital]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Loki trying to kill Thor]]



** Also, from Loki's perspective, if he successfully carries out his plan and destroys the Jotuns, then he's cemented himself as Odin's heir. He doesn't need to give up his throne forever- after all, Odin was ready to crown Thor, which says that he's ready or almost ready to step down himself. If Thor comes back, it screws ''everything'' up.

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** Also, from Loki's perspective, if he successfully carries out his plan and destroys the Jotuns, then he's cemented himself as Odin's heir. He doesn't need to give up his throne forever- forever -- after all, Odin was ready to crown Thor, which says that he's ready or almost ready to step down himself. If Thor comes back, it screws ''everything'' up.



** Loki was just doing what he does best; making mischief, i.e., [[ManipulativeBastard manipulating]] everyone around him. He deliberately gave the Frost Giants a way into Asgard, which he knew would end up screwing both them and Thor, he planted the idea of blowing off Odin's orders into Thor's head, before informing on their effort to some guard anyway. The whole Thor getting banished thing was just an unexpected consequence- even Loki seems a bit shocked when it happens. That, and the whole "You're a Frost Giant" bomb which Odin drops later probably compelled him to go with the whole "I'll wipe them out!!!11!" idea. And for the record, Loki only visited Thor so that he could screw with him, which is why he lied about Odin being dead.

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** Loki was just doing what he does best; making mischief, i.e., [[ManipulativeBastard manipulating]] everyone around him. He deliberately gave the Frost Giants a way into Asgard, which he knew would end up screwing both them and Thor, he planted the idea of blowing off Odin's orders into Thor's head, before informing on their effort to some guard anyway. The whole Thor getting banished thing was just an unexpected consequence- consequence -- even Loki seems a bit shocked when it happens. That, and the whole "You're a Frost Giant" bomb which Odin drops later probably compelled him to go with the whole "I'll wipe them out!!!11!" idea. And for the record, Loki only visited Thor so that he could screw with him, which is why he lied about Odin being dead.




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Asgardians getting burned by Jotuns]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Loki changing form as a baby]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Thor's age]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Loki using the Bifrost when visiting Laufey]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Is Loki half Jotun?]]




* Why did Odin favour Thor over Loki for the throne at the start? Loki takes after his father more than Thor does - he's smart, cunning, far-sighted, and capable of diplomacy. Thor's popular with the Asgardians and fits well into their BoisterousBruiser culture, but a king needs to be more than that, and based on what we see, Loki at the start of the film is much closer to what you need in a ruler than Thor. Was it just that Thor was his biological child?

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Odin's parental favoritism]]
* Why did Odin favour Thor over Loki for the throne at the start? Loki takes after his father more than Thor does - -- he's smart, cunning, far-sighted, and capable of diplomacy. Thor's popular with the Asgardians and fits well into their BoisterousBruiser culture, but a king needs to be more than that, and based on what we see, Loki at the start of the film is much closer to what you need in a ruler than Thor. Was it just that Thor was his biological child?










[[folder:Out-of-universe issues with the film]]

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\n[[folder:Out-of-universe issues with the film]]\n[[folder:Where was Balder?]]




* Minor 'scratcher, really, but why was there such an emphasis on the random crossbow guy during the rainy fight scene? For some reason I was getting the impression he was supposed to be important and then he just...wasn't (he didn't even get to shoot anyone!). Was he only for building suspense?

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Who was the guy with the bow and arrow?]]
* Minor 'scratcher, really, but why was there such an emphasis on the random crossbow guy during the rainy fight scene? For some reason I was getting the impression he was supposed to be important and then he just... wasn't (he didn't even get to shoot anyone!). Was he only for building suspense?



** Not likely. He is Hawkeye. Coulson refers to him as "Agent Barton", as in Clint Barton, as in Hawkeye. Just no silly purple getup.

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** Not likely. He is ''is'' Hawkeye. Coulson refers to him as "Agent Barton", as in Clint Barton, as in Hawkeye. Just no silly purple getup.




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Scientists mentioned by Selvig]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Loki in the post-credit scene]]




* FridgeHorror: [[spoiler: Loki may still have the Casket of Ancient Winters with him, if he and the end of the Bïfrost ''both'' ended up on Earth. If not, where ''did'' the Casket end up?]]
** Also, the remains of [[spoiler: The Destroyer]] are on earth, so anyone (most likely SHIELD) can just research it.
** Though being fair, [[spoiler: its not likely SHIELD will be able to do much with the pieces, any more than they did with Mjolnir.]]
** As of ''Film/{{The Avengers|2012}}'', SHIELD researching the remains of the Destroyer, at least, is [[spoiler: confirmed. Furthermore, they've built a {{BFG}} using the tech and it's complete enough for Coulson to use it against Loki, though he claims not to know what it does.]]




[[folder: SHIELD]]

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\n[[folder: SHIELD]]\n[[folder:Where did the Casket end up?]]
* FridgeHorror: Loki may still have the Casket of Ancient Winters with him, if he and the end of the Bïfrost ''both'' ended up on Earth. If not, where ''did'' the Casket end up?
** Also, the remains of The Destroyer are on earth, so anyone (most likely SHIELD) can just research it.
** Though being fair, it's not likely SHIELD will be able to do much with the pieces, any more than they did with Mjolnir.
** As of ''Film/{{The Avengers|2012}}'', SHIELD researching the remains of the Destroyer, at least, is confirmed. Furthermore, they've built a {{BFG}} using the tech and it's complete enough for Coulson to use it against Loki, though he claims not to know what it does.
** ''Thor:Ragnarok'' shows that it is back in Asgard. Or was...
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Thor's fake ID]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Thor and SHIELD being friendly suddenly?]]





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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:SHIELD building tunnels at the crash site]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:SHIELD suddenly being nice]]







[[folder: Other questions]]

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\n[[folder: Other questions]]\n[[folder:Jane & Co being surprised by Thor's friends]]



** Even the best LARP/Cosplay outfits are generally identifiable as such, if nothing else then by a weapon that is obviously safe to comply with local laws. Sif and Warriors Three are carrying very obviously NOT safe weapons. And as mentioned above, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is a pattern. For scientists like Jane and Selvig, even a political scientist like Darcy, five is more or less irrefutable proof. Now, granted, all this might take talking to Sif and WT for a bit, but for their initial reaction. . . well, if four dudes in Viking armor knocked on ''your'' kitchen window at breakfast, you'd be a tad out-of-sorts for a moment, too. And if you were playing host to someone claiming to be a Norse god at the time. . .

to:

** Even the best LARP/Cosplay outfits are generally identifiable as such, if nothing else then by a weapon that is obviously safe to comply with local laws. Sif and Warriors Three are carrying very obviously NOT safe weapons. And as mentioned above, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is a pattern. For scientists like Jane and Selvig, even a political scientist like Darcy, five is more or less irrefutable proof. Now, granted, all this might take talking to Sif and WT for a bit, but for their initial reaction. . .reaction... well, if four dudes in Viking armor knocked on ''your'' kitchen window at breakfast, you'd be a tad out-of-sorts for a moment, too. And if you were playing host to someone claiming to be a Norse god at the time. . .
time...

[[folder:Why is no war happening between Asgard and Jotunheim?]]




* Having an omniscient character like Heimdall makes for some difficult questions. How would Heimdall not have known that Loki was a frost giant? Or at least, not an Asgardian? He should have noticed when the King came back from war with a baby not his own. How then could he have been surprised by Loki's ice blast? After the ice blast, Loki must have intended to kill him as Heimdall could have spoiled his plan by revealing the truth once freed. But how would Loki explain Heimdall being overcome by a handful of frost giants when even Odin appears slightly intimidated by him?

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\n[[/folder]]

[[folder:Did Heimdall know about Loki?]]
* Having an omniscient character like Heimdall makes for some difficult questions. How would Heimdall not have known that Loki was a frost giant? Or at least, not an Asgardian? He should have noticed when the King came back from war with a baby not his own. How then could he have been surprised by Loki's ice blast? After the ice blast, Loki must have intended to kill him as Heimdall could have spoiled his plan by revealing the truth once freed. But how would Loki explain Heimdall being overcome by a handful of frost giants Frost Giants when even Odin appears slightly intimidated by him?




to:

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Why is Loki een as a woobie?]]



** No, it's not at all. Loki is sympathetic, that's for sure. But nowhere in his motives or plan does it justify how far he took it. Loki is responsible for the murder of at least two innocent people, willing led assassin's to his defenseless father, then betrayed them too simply to look like a hero, nearly killing his mother in the process. Then, he visits Thor to basically say "Lulz, you killed dad. By the way, I'm totally gonna screw with that chick your in love with." For no other reason than to crush him. And his attempt to destroy Jotunheim is motivated to please Odin, and his own rejection of his heritage, not because he actually cared about Asgard. Hell, he's willing to commit genocide to please a father who ALREADY LOVES HIM. Loki actually got off fairly easy.

to:

** No, it's not at all. Loki is sympathetic, that's for sure. But nowhere in his motives or plan does it justify how far he took it. Loki is responsible for the murder of at least two innocent people, willing led assassin's to his defenseless father, then betrayed them too simply to look like a hero, nearly killing his mother in the process. Then, he visits Thor to basically say "Lulz, you killed dad. By the way, I'm totally gonna screw with that chick your you're in love with." For no other reason than to crush him. And his attempt to destroy Jotunheim is motivated to please Odin, and his own rejection of his heritage, not because he actually cared about Asgard. Hell, he's willing to commit genocide to please a father who ALREADY LOVES HIM. Loki actually got off fairly easy.



** The best theory I've seen for explaining (note: NOT justifying) Loki's actions was explained in [[http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/12/loki-an-allegory-about-internalised-racism/ this article]]. He's been brought up to hate the jotun; now he's discovered he IS one. All the negative messages he's been given are still present; he now considers himself a monster, and hates himself for his heritage. And, now, he has to prove that he's NOT a monster like them, and what better way than to destroy all the jotun? From the article linked, "he has to do something that will prove beyond doubt that he is Aesir '''at least at heart'''".

to:

** The best theory I've seen for explaining (note: NOT justifying) Loki's actions was explained in [[http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/12/loki-an-allegory-about-internalised-racism/ this article]]. He's been brought up to hate the jotun; Jotuns; now he's discovered he IS one. All the negative messages he's been given are still present; he now considers himself a monster, and hates himself for his heritage. And, now, he has to prove that he's NOT a monster like them, and what better way than to destroy all the jotun? From the article linked, "he has to do something that will prove beyond doubt that he is Aesir '''at least at heart'''".



** Yeah, Tom Hiddleston is mad sexy as Loki. But also, just like in real life, it takes a certain amount of maturity to love, or have sympathy for a person/character and still be able to acknowledge their faults. Loki is very sympathetic, very relatable, very much in need of a hug, but still very often in the wrong. This kind of denial happens all the time in real life - it shouldn't be terribly surprising when it crops up in fandom. Especially when the most vocal and aggressive segments of any fandom are rarely the most reasonable.

to:

** Yeah, Tom Hiddleston is mad sexy as Loki. But also, just like in real life, it takes a certain amount of maturity to love, or have sympathy for a person/character and still be able to acknowledge their faults. Loki is very sympathetic, very relatable, very much in need of a hug, but still very often in the wrong. This kind of denial happens all the time in real life - -- it shouldn't be terribly surprising when it crops up in fandom. Especially when the most vocal and aggressive segments of any fandom are rarely the most reasonable.



** But being the ''re''constructed child implies there was an original. ... Damn you, the GogglesDoNothing! [[spoiler: inb4 someone explains his black hair by saying Zack's genes were in the mix.]]

to:

** But being the ''re''constructed child implies there was an original. ... original... Damn you, the GogglesDoNothing! [[spoiler: inb4 [[spoiler:inb4 someone explains his black hair by saying Zack's genes were in the mix.]]



** For this troper, at least, there's also a healthy dose of sympathy that carries over him from other adaptations of Loki, including the original mythology. The original Loki wasn't really evil; later versions of the mythology rewrote him as a stand-in for the Devil. Loki always ended up as Asgard's fall guy, conveniently called in any time the other gods wanted to avoid responsibility for something (the fact that Loki ''did'' do any number of nasty things made this easy.) That said, ultimately nothing Loki did in this movie was really ''evil'' by the standards of his own people. [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide (Obviously, our moral standards differ.)]]His goals -- defeating his enemies, ruling his people, bringing pride to his father -- are all pretty standard for his culture; he just has very twisty, indirect, unpleasant ways of achieving those goals. Now, his actions in ''Avengers'' are another story...

to:

** For this troper, at least, there's also a healthy dose of sympathy that carries over him from other adaptations of Loki, including the original mythology. The original Loki wasn't really evil; later versions of the mythology rewrote him as a stand-in for the Devil. Loki always ended up as Asgard's fall guy, conveniently called in any time the other gods wanted to avoid responsibility for something (the fact that Loki ''did'' do any number of nasty things made this easy.) That said, ultimately nothing Loki did in this movie was really ''evil'' by the standards of his own people. [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide (Obviously, our moral standards differ.)]]His )]] His goals -- defeating his enemies, ruling his people, bringing pride to his father -- are all pretty standard for his culture; he just has very twisty, indirect, unpleasant ways of achieving those goals. Now, his actions in ''Avengers'' are another story...



** Agree with the above. I seem to be coming in a little late...but I'll take a shot at it anyway. The way I see it, the fangirls who worship Loki are wrong in saying he's done nothing wrong, and I also hate it when other characters are portrayed as bastards in order to make the favorite character look good. But on the other hand, calling Loki outright evil is wrong too. At the beginning of the film, he's basically what one of the warriors described him as; one for harmless mischief and tricks, and a deleted scene showing the brotherly bond between Thor and Loki highlights this even more. And when Thor was about to become king, Loki rightly noticed that his brother wasn't ready, and letting the Frost Giants in proved this to Odin, thus sparing Asgard a massive headache - and possibly, also helping his brother out as well, giving him more time to mature and become a better king. Of course, things got out of hand; he looked genuinely shocked when Odin banished Thor. But what really drove him over the edge was finding out that he was a Frost Giant. In his eyes, he'd just discovered that he was the monster that children looked for under their beds. So of course he's going to have a breakdown, which leads him to take his father's words the wrong way; but when he shouts at his father, who promptly collapses, Loki instantly panics and calls for help. What follows is him trying to prove to his father - and to himself - that he's a worthy son, Thor's equal, and an Asgardian through and through. This includes killing Laufey and the Frost Giants, thus disconnecting himself from his origins, and even though he puts both his parents in danger, he obviously had it all under control. He just goes the wrong way in doing this without realizing the full extent and consequences of his actions, and when everything begins to fall apart, he panics and does things he probably would never have done before. His actions and the reasons for his actions puts him between what fangirls think and what haters think; a sympathetic villain, but his actions can't be justified by his reasons (but they can be understood). Of course, this doesn't mean that he can't be redeemed; in this Troper's opinion, almost anything can be forgiven, so long as the person tries to genuinely and selflessly make up for it. If Loki does that, then there should be no problems.
** Jumping in on this long winded conversation, but I noticed that most people who watch the Marvel movies involving Loki are sympathetic towards the guy. This is to be noted that all of them are separate from the woobifying fangirls. I think that these fangirls of his that excuse his every action and try to pin them on someone else can't comprehend the idea that you can like a villainous character for the simple fact that it's a well written, interesting character, without excusing psychotic genocide and murder. This isn't just a Loki fangirl thing, it happens in so many fandoms- girls refuse to like a villainous character because he's interesting- they have to woobify and justify his shitty actions. Which is stupid, because I love Loki but I don't excuse a single thing he does. (And on that note, I was talking to a friend about Loki recently and she said "Well, I think Odin is worse than Loki" and I said "Hang on! Odin didn't try to commit genocide." and she goes, "Well, yeah, he did." I disagree, but jump on that as you will.)


to:

** Agree with the above. I seem to be coming in a little late... but I'll take a shot at it anyway. The way I see it, the fangirls who worship Loki are wrong in saying he's done nothing wrong, and I also hate it when other characters are portrayed as bastards in order to make the favorite character look good. But on the other hand, calling Loki outright evil is wrong too. At the beginning of the film, he's basically what one of the warriors described him as; one for harmless mischief and tricks, and a deleted scene showing the brotherly bond between Thor and Loki highlights this even more. And when Thor was about to become king, Loki rightly noticed that his brother wasn't ready, and letting the Frost Giants in proved this to Odin, thus sparing Asgard a massive headache - -- and possibly, also helping his brother out as well, giving him more time to mature and become a better king. Of course, things got out of hand; he looked genuinely shocked when Odin banished Thor. But what really drove him over the edge was finding out that he was a Frost Giant. In his eyes, he'd just discovered that he was the monster that children looked for under their beds. So of course he's going to have a breakdown, which leads him to take his father's words the wrong way; but when he shouts at his father, who promptly collapses, Loki instantly panics and calls for help. What follows is him trying to prove to his father - -- and to himself - -- that he's a worthy son, Thor's equal, and an Asgardian through and through. This includes killing Laufey and the Frost Giants, thus disconnecting himself from his origins, and even though he puts both his parents in danger, he obviously had it all under control. He just goes the wrong way in doing this without realizing the full extent and consequences of his actions, and when everything begins to fall apart, he panics and does things he probably would never have done before. His actions and the reasons for his actions puts him between what fangirls think and what haters think; a sympathetic villain, but his actions can't be justified by his reasons (but they can be understood). Of course, this doesn't mean that he can't be redeemed; in this Troper's opinion, almost anything can be forgiven, so long as the person tries to genuinely and selflessly make up for it. If Loki does that, then there should be no problems.
** Jumping in on this long winded conversation, but I noticed that most people who watch the Marvel movies involving Loki are sympathetic towards the guy. This is to be noted that all of them are separate from the woobifying fangirls. I think that these fangirls of his that excuse his every action and try to pin them on someone else can't comprehend the idea that you can like a villainous character for the simple fact that it's a well written, interesting character, without excusing psychotic genocide and murder. This isn't just a Loki fangirl thing, it happens in so many fandoms- fandoms -- girls refuse to like a villainous character because he's interesting- interesting -- they have to woobify and justify his shitty actions. Which is stupid, because I love Loki but I don't excuse a single thing he does. (And on that note, I was talking to a friend about Loki recently and she said "Well, I think Odin is worse than Loki" and I said "Hang on! Odin didn't try to commit genocide." and she goes, "Well, yeah, he did." I disagree, but jump on that as you will.)

)
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Odin being against war]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Why Heimdall is supposed to be the most powerful Asgardian?]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Odin calling Thor vain etc.]]



** One could consider that trying to wage war on the Jotuns--basically waltzing over there to murder them without provocation--is pretty cruel.

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** One could consider that trying to wage war on the Jotuns--basically Jotuns -- basically waltzing over there to murder them without provocation--is provocation -- is pretty cruel.




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Odin getting so fast to the Bifrost]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Heimdall doesn't get punished by Odin?]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Why the need to odin-sleep?]]



** They had no idea how long it was going to last. Frigga said they weren't sure he would ever wake up. That's why it was an emergency--they were on the brink of war and they had ''no idea'' if their ruler was ever gonna be conscious again.

to:

** They had no idea how long it was going to last. Frigga said they weren't sure he would ever wake up. That's why it was an emergency--they emergency --they were on the brink of war and they had ''no idea'' if their ruler was ever gonna be conscious again.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Why didn't Thor destroy the ice?]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Odin's eye]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Loki screaming in the vault]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Disks on Thor's armour]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Destroying the bridge]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Asgard breaking contact with Midgard]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Jane and Darcy's lack of knowledge of Norse Mythology]]









** Loki probably brought the mythology book he found it in to Thor. "Look, brother. See what ridiculous stories Midgard has thought up." "What will they think of next, Loki? That I am Freya?" "Actually...look here."

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** Loki probably brought the mythology book he found it in to Thor. "Look, brother. See what ridiculous stories Midgard has thought up." "What will they think of next, Loki? That I am Freya?" "Actually... look here."












[[folder:Why are the Frost Giants Considered a Threat to Asgard?]]

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[[folder:Why are the Frost Giants Considered considered a Threat threat to Asgard?]]
Asgard?]]



2nd Mar '18 12:04:52 PM momur
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to:

** Well, to put it bluntly, looking for an InUniverse explanation is probably redundant. The most likely reason for this is it's a pre-existing book or someone just copied/pasted Loki's Wikipedia page, printed it out, bound it and hey presto, movie prop ready to go! As you said, it's only visible if you pause and actually ''look'' at it; typically, movie makers don't really count on people doing that. In pretty much every movie involving people reading things, there'll be a mistake somewhere in what they're reading because it often just has to "fill up the page", as it were. The content itself isn't that important.
2nd Mar '18 11:28:20 AM momur
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to:

\n\n\n** A couple of potential reasons: 1) Thor was older and so would be automatically in line for the throne (assuming Asgardian inheritance policy operated the same as ours); 2) when Odin tells Loki about finding him, he mentions that he had "a plan" to bring Jotunheim and Asgard together in some way and it's somewhat unlikely for that plan to have been to put Loki on the throne of Asgard; 3) in many ways, Thor seemed to actively ''want'' it more than Loki did. When the two are children, we see that Thor is much more enthusiastic about the possibility of being King while Loki seems somewhat resigned to the fact that things will end up that way. Odin may actually genuinely have believed he was giving each brother what they wanted by making Thor the new King instead of Loki.



1st Mar '18 6:13:30 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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** Yeah, I just chalked it up to GenreSavvy.
24th Jan '18 9:17:07 AM tafelshrew
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to:

** More recent research shows that at least one prominent Viking warrior tomb contained a woman's body (and indicates she held some kind of leader rank), so maybe Asgard and Norse culture just differed on this detail. [[WildMassGuessing Maybe the loss of the Valkyries we learn of in Thor Ragnarok was a significant enough cultural trauma that the Asgardians decided it wasn't a good idea?]]



** In the myths Loki is half-giant, half-alfa (elf).


to:

** In the myths
* Why did Odin favour Thor over
Loki for the throne at the start? Loki takes after his father more than Thor does - he's smart, cunning, far-sighted, and capable of diplomacy. Thor's popular with the Asgardians and fits well into their BoisterousBruiser culture, but a king needs to be more than that, and based on what we see, Loki at the start of the film is half-giant, half-alfa (elf).

much closer to what you need in a ruler than Thor. Was it just that Thor was his biological child?



16th Jan '18 11:55:45 AM Hjortron18
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* One thing that kind of bugs me: Given Thor's statement "Your ancestors called it magic, you call it technology, but where I come from, they are one and the same", the movieverse seems to follow ClarkesLaw. But if that's the case, how does Loki pull off his "magic" without any visible devices of any sort? Are they implanted inside of him? Is he a cyborg?

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* One thing that kind of bugs me: Given Thor's statement "Your ancestors called it magic, you call it technology, but where I come from, they are one and the same", the movieverse seems to follow ClarkesLaw.ClarkesThirdLaw. But if that's the case, how does Loki pull off his "magic" without any visible devices of any sort? Are they implanted inside of him? Is he a cyborg?
2nd Nov '17 4:46:37 AM MrItty
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** Also, Loki probably agreed at least on some level with Thor: That Odin really ''wanted'' and maybe even ''should have wanted'' for his sons what made him a hero: An epic clash with the enemy, but Odin had grown old and weak. But if he saw that his sons could be just as tough as he was, he'd ''have'' to acknowledge their awesomeness and worthiness to be king. Particularly whichever son was the one to defeat them. And if they had attempted an assassination of Odin, then going to war with them would just be The Right Thing To Do. Think of it like how George Bush 41 went to a limited war with Saddam Hussein but stopped well short of regime change, so then when W became president, after Hussein had attempted an assassination on Bush, Sr., W launched a pre-emptive... wait, wait... [[FridgeBrilliance OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!]]
** Please tell me you are not so foolish as to believe that, the real life part, anyway.
** Believe which part? Every real life fact I said is true. I didn't say that's why the Iraq War happened. Movies about Norse gods can take inspiration from history without following it to the letter.

to:

** Also, Loki probably agreed at least on some level with Thor: That Odin really ''wanted'' and maybe even ''should have wanted'' for his sons what made him a hero: An epic clash with the enemy, but Odin had grown old and weak. But if he saw that his sons could be just as tough as he was, he'd ''have'' to acknowledge their awesomeness and worthiness to be king. Particularly whichever son was the one to defeat them. And if they had attempted an assassination of Odin, then going to war with them would just be The Right Thing To Do. Think of it like how George Bush 41 went to a limited war with Saddam Hussein but stopped well short of regime change, so then when W became president, after Hussein had attempted an assassination on Bush, Sr., W launched a pre-emptive... wait, wait... [[FridgeBrilliance OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!]]
** Please tell me you are not so foolish as to believe that, the real life part, anyway.
** Believe which part? Every real life fact I said is true. I didn't say that's why the Iraq War happened. Movies about Norse gods can take inspiration from history without following it to the letter.
Do.
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