History Headscratchers / TheThrawnTrilogy

12th Jan '17 11:45:40 AM julietvalcouer
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** In keeping with the above copout, the ORIGINAL C'baoth was unstable-to-insane. It's possible that using some sort of internal InsaneTrollLogic the clone has convinced himself that he's a clone and yet he is also the original.



** Above spoiler kind of opens up a plot hole as [[spoiler: Thrawn should KNOW that there's a very good chance C'baoth isn't just clone madness and not be thinking that maybe growing a replacement was a good idea. He met the original, he knows said original was crazy, and while he wasn't really infallible that seems like a bad enough idea he wouldn't even need anyone to explain why it's a bad idea.]]

to:

** Above spoiler kind of opens up a plot hole as [[spoiler: Thrawn should KNOW that there's a very good chance C'baoth isn't just clone madness and not be thinking that maybe growing a replacement was a good idea. He met the original, he knows said original was crazy, and while he wasn't really infallible that seems like a bad enough idea he wouldn't even need anyone to explain why it's a bad idea.]]]]
** To spackle the plot hole mentioned above, as revealed in backstory it may be [[GoodIsNotNice a stretch to call Thrawn outright evil]] so it might seem superficially petty, but he and the original C'baoth had a very nasty encounter which contributed directly to [[spoiler: the death of Thrawn's brother, the death of C'baoth's apprentice, the apparent deaths of everyone on Outbound Flight, and also involved Thrawn's first experience being Force-choked.]] With the clone programming he's developed and the ysalamiri, it's possible the notion of having a supply of clones he can use and dispose of made from someone he has personal reason to hate is him taking a moment to PayEvilUntoEvil. (And anyone who's read ''Literature/OutboundFlight'' probably doesn't have a problem with C'baoth as the target.)
30th Nov '16 10:29:16 AM julietvalcouer
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** The above seems off from what we see of Thrawn. Thrawn shows precisely zero indication he looks down on anything simply for not understanding it. And he shows anger a handful of times in this trilogy, predominantly while dealing with C'baoth and Mara (in the latter case only when she directly attacks him), and mild irritation with Ferrier. And saying Thrawn doesn't plan for the unexpected or deal with it well suggests not having actually read the books at all. If anything, Thrawn's biggest problem is over-thinking. He leaves people like C'baoth and Mara and Karrde and Ferrier alive (especially the last) LONG after any reasonable person would have decided to cut their losses and kill them because he has ''too many'' contingency plans and in some their being dead would be a problem. As for not stringing together the Noghri situation, of course he wouldn't assume the Noghri would defy him, he's got an (in-story) forty-year track record of thinking they wouldn't, and the rest of the assumption hinges on him considering how they'd respond to an heir of Vader. Thing is, ''absolutely no one in the galaxy not directly personally involved with Luke and Leia on extremely intimate terms has any reason at all to think such a person exists.'' Even Mara, who has literally spent time mentally linked to the Emperor himself, has no idea who Luke is until she asks the Noghri on Wayland who they mean with this "Son of Vader" stuff. His problem isn't that he doesn't think it could happen, it's that he's missing a critical piece of information. He is in fact the best contingency-planning antagonist in either EU timeline, but even he can't plan for a circumstance he has no idea is even possible.
4th Nov '16 11:48:05 AM ErikModi
Is there an issue? Send a Message









to:

** Plus, as Thrawn himself notes when Pellaeon objects to C'baoth being confined in the Emperor's chambers and throne room of Mount Tantiss, C'baoth is really in the safest place they can put him right now, a mountain littered with ysalamiri who are blocking out the Force. Thrawn even anticipates that C'baoth may have had some sabotage attempted within the mountain (which had, using Covell's troops to plant explosives on all the ysalamiri), but apparently the current garrison was unable to find and undo it before Luke and Co, attacked and distracted them.
21st Sep '16 1:52:38 AM jakobitis
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** Possibly his name was actually pronounced 'Jaw-roose' (instead of Jaw-russ) in which case the extra 'u' wouldn't have altered the pronunciation much. Everytime he heard the name he heard it pronounced the same way it always had been.
2nd Sep '16 11:34:55 AM PomRania
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Thrawn had several weaknesses, despite his brilliance. One of those weaknesses was a tendency to underestimate or look down on things he could not fully understand nor personally experience-such as the force, or the Noghri's traditions of honor. Another was his arrogance and pride-note the flashes of anger, even rage, when his orders are defied. Third, these traits lead him to leave the unexpected out of his planning, and he rarely anticipates that any changes will occur which he does not expect. Ultimately, Thrawn didn't string together the ideas that a) the apparently docile Noghri would ever defy one of his commands, b) the fact that they might identify Vader's family by scent, c) that Vader's child would have enough standing to warrant some measure of protection from him, and d) that his deception of the Noghri would be discovered, and backfire in such an explosive way.

to:

* Thrawn had several weaknesses, despite his brilliance. One of those weaknesses was a tendency to underestimate or look down on things he could not fully understand nor personally experience-such experience - such as the force, Force, or the Noghri's traditions of honor. Another was his arrogance and pride-note pride - note the flashes of anger, even rage, when his orders are defied. Third, these traits lead him to leave the unexpected out of his planning, and he rarely anticipates that any changes will occur which he does not expect. Ultimately, Thrawn didn't string together the ideas that a) the apparently docile Noghri would ever defy one of his commands, b) the fact that they might identify Vader's family by scent, c) that Vader's child would have enough standing to warrant some measure of protection from him, and d) that his deception of the Noghri would be discovered, and backfire in such an explosive way.



** He might've had a helmet. Zahn's writing is infamous for being sparse on details... He doesn't in the comicbook adaptation, but then again, that's the same comic where Noghri are seven feet tall and built like the Hulk.

to:

** He might've had a helmet. Zahn's writing is infamous for being sparse on details... He doesn't in the comicbook comic book adaptation, but then again, that's the same comic where Noghri are seven feet tall and built like the Hulk.



** It still seems a bit ambiguious to me. It's not entirely improbable that it could have been Thrawn saying the line.

to:

** It still seems a bit ambiguious ambiguous to me. It's not entirely improbable that it could have been Thrawn saying the line.



** In general, when using a pronoun, it's use is supposed to take the place of the subject that was last mentioned. In this case the last subject is not Pellaeon in the phrase "Pellaeon's astonishment" but Thrawn in "the Grand Admiral smiled." The pronoun follows that statement and would therefore refer to the Grand Admiral.

to:

** In general, when using a pronoun, it's its use is supposed to take the place of the subject that was last mentioned. In this case the last subject is not Pellaeon in the phrase "Pellaeon's astonishment" but Thrawn in "the Grand Admiral smiled." The pronoun follows that statement and would therefore refer to the Grand Admiral.



** CGTs clearly have more uses than just detecting cloaked masses, since there wouldn't be a need for them since a practical cloaking shield hadn't been in use until Thrawn's offensive. So the Empire had them because they were useful for something. Thrawn didn't move them because he needed bait to draw the New Republic fleet into an engagement of his choosing.
** If the CGT were moved, there would be the risk of New Republic Intelligence catching on. Which might change the timetable of the Bilbringi attack or even cause it to be called off entirely. Now moving the ''Tangrene'' CGT, that would've fit quite well with Thrawn's plan because if discovered it would've given the impression he'd been fooled by the New Republic's plan. But for all we know, a CGT might be something that's not particularly easy to move on short notice. As for sabotaging the Bilbringi CGT as a contingency plan in case the New Republic managed to take the shipyard...well who says he didn't? But if he did, it wouldn't have mattered. Rigging to show false positives wouldn't have worked since filling the area of detection with turbolaser fire and hitting nothing would rapidly expose the deception. And if the CGT was rigged to ignore some cloaked objects, that would've been ineffective because the New Republic really had destroyed all of the cloaked asteroids.

to:

** CGTs [=CGTs=] clearly have more uses than just detecting cloaked masses, since there wouldn't be a need for them since a practical cloaking shield hadn't been in use until Thrawn's offensive. So the Empire had them because they were useful for something. Thrawn didn't move them because he needed bait to draw the New Republic fleet into an engagement of his choosing.
** If the CGT were moved, there would be the risk of New Republic Intelligence catching on. Which might change the timetable of the Bilbringi attack or even cause it to be called off entirely. Now moving the ''Tangrene'' CGT, that would've fit quite well with Thrawn's plan because if discovered it would've given the impression he'd been fooled by the New Republic's plan. But for all we know, a CGT might be something that's not particularly easy to move on short notice. As for sabotaging the Bilbringi CGT as a contingency plan in case the New Republic managed to take the shipyard... well who says he didn't? But if he did, it wouldn't have mattered. Rigging to show false positives wouldn't have worked since filling the area of detection with turbolaser fire and hitting nothing would rapidly expose the deception. And if the CGT was rigged to ignore some cloaked objects, that would've been ineffective because the New Republic really had destroyed all of the cloaked asteroids.



* What happened to the Katana fleet?

to:

* [[WMG: What happened to the Katana fleet?fleet?]]



* Okay, so Thrawn and Pellaeon clearly know C'Boath is an insane control freak who can control peoples' minds. He does it repeatedly. So why does Thrawn send him off General Covell and his best, handpicked troops, onto a ship with no ysalamiri on it? He clearly didn't ''plan'' on what happened, and yet it seemed blindingly obvious; a skill C'Baoth even uses in front of Thrawn and threatens to use again. What the hell?

to:

* Okay, so Thrawn and Pellaeon clearly know C'Boath is an insane control freak who can control peoples' people's minds. He does it repeatedly. So why does Thrawn send him off General Covell and his best, handpicked troops, onto a ship with no ysalamiri on it? He clearly didn't ''plan'' on what happened, and yet it seemed blindingly obvious; a skill C'Baoth even uses in front of Thrawn and threatens to use again. What the hell?



* 1) Thrawn was cloning ground troops and vehicle crews, not just ship crew, so the figures of needed personnel were much higher, 2) It's established early on that most of the current Imperial military is made up of "young men and women, most conscripted from their homeworlds by force or threat of force." The Empire doesn't enjoy the "support" (if that's the right word) it had when Palpatine was alive, most Imperial planets don't want to be Imperial anymore, and you can only get so far with consription before it's more trouble than it's worth. Conscripted soldiers are also not the most loyal. 3) The Empire still had functional shipyards, and were still churning out Imperial Star Destroyers, which would also need crew. Thrawn's cloning breakthrough just meant that they were churning out troops faster than they were ships, so he needed an infusion of warships to get the ball rolling. 4) The 150+ ''Katana'' fleet Dreadnoughts couldn't turn the tide by themselves, but did make enough of an immediate difference that Thrawn could make more daring and more effective attacks, and the first thing he did was take Ukio, an agricultural planet, to obtain the food supplies he'd need to sustain his ever-growing military. 5) The ''Katana'' fleet was stranded in deep space, not much out there to impact them just standing still. Besides, Karrde mentions that the ships were active when he ran into them, so they may have still had their low-grade particle shields (the kind designed to protect against micrometorite impacts) up.

to:

* 1) Thrawn was cloning ground troops and vehicle crews, not just ship crew, so the figures of needed personnel were much higher, higher. 2) It's established early on that most of the current Imperial military is made up of "young men and women, most conscripted from their homeworlds by force or threat of force." The Empire doesn't enjoy the "support" (if that's the right word) it had when Palpatine was alive, most Imperial planets don't want to be Imperial anymore, and you can only get so far with consription conscription before it's more trouble than it's worth. Conscripted soldiers are also not the most loyal. 3) The Empire still had functional shipyards, and were still churning out Imperial Star Destroyers, which would also need crew. Thrawn's cloning breakthrough just meant that they were churning out troops faster than they were ships, so he needed an infusion of warships to get the ball rolling. 4) The 150+ ''Katana'' fleet Dreadnoughts couldn't turn the tide by themselves, but did make enough of an immediate difference that Thrawn could make more daring and more effective attacks, and the first thing he did was take Ukio, an agricultural planet, to obtain the food supplies he'd need to sustain his ever-growing military. 5) The ''Katana'' fleet was stranded in deep space, not much out there to impact them just standing still. Besides, Karrde mentions that the ships were active when he ran into them, so they may have still had their low-grade particle shields (the kind designed to protect against micrometorite impacts) up.



* Delta Source was located in a ''very'' public place, eavsdropping on everything said there. Getting every single being who passed through on board with the disinformation campaign, without one single person accidentally spilling the beans, would have been ridiculously complex. Besides, by destroying it and rendering the Imperial Palace safe again, they scored a major morale victory.

to:

* Delta Source was located in a ''very'' public place, eavsdropping eavesdropping on everything said there. Getting every single being who passed through on board with the disinformation campaign, without one single person accidentally spilling the beans, would have been ridiculously complex. Besides, by destroying it and rendering the Imperial Palace safe again, they scored a major morale victory.



* The Rebellion's need isn't just to get the smugglers to start hauling legitimate cargo, its to get the smugglers to haul ''their'' cargo. The main reason they wanted to recruit smugglers isn't because they wanted to reduce their crime rate but because they were having a fleet logistics problem and needed more hulls to move military supplies to the front and needed them in a hurry. And thus they need smugglers; if you're going to ask people to fly cargo ships into and out of a war zone, then they'd need to either be your own naval transports (which are already running at max capacity and then some), or else experienced freelance blockade runners... i.e., smugglers.

to:

* The Rebellion's need isn't just to get the smugglers to start hauling legitimate cargo, its it's to get the smugglers to haul ''their'' cargo. The main reason they wanted to recruit smugglers isn't because they wanted to reduce their crime rate but because they were having a fleet logistics problem and needed more hulls to move military supplies to the front and needed them in a hurry. And thus they need smugglers; if you're going to ask people to fly cargo ships into and out of a war zone, then they'd need to either be your own naval transports (which are already running at max capacity and then some), or else experienced freelance blockade runners... i.e., smugglers.
21st Aug '16 10:35:50 PM OafishVulture
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

* Thrawn had several weaknesses, despite his brilliance. One of those weaknesses was a tendency to underestimate or look down on things he could not fully understand nor personally experience-such as the force, or the Noghri's traditions of honor. Another was his arrogance and pride-note the flashes of anger, even rage, when his orders are defied. Third, these traits lead him to leave the unexpected out of his planning, and he rarely anticipates that any changes will occur which he does not expect. Ultimately, Thrawn didn't string together the ideas that a) the apparently docile Noghri would ever defy one of his commands, b) the fact that they might identify Vader's family by scent, c) that Vader's child would have enough standing to warrant some measure of protection from him, and d) that his deception of the Noghri would be discovered, and backfire in such an explosive way.
8th Aug '16 10:41:18 PM AnimeSunglasses
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** Plus, y'know, armor.
8th Aug '16 10:37:31 PM AnimeSunglasses
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** You're assuming that the CGT is easily replaced. It clearly isn't, when there are less than a half a dozen in the GALAXY, according to the New Republic's Intelligence Service. It's described as "semi-rare," probably indicating that it's a well understood technology, but one that isn't manufactured often. Why? I suspect that it may have relatively few uses (that can't also be done by other types of sensors), be too large or delicate for common installation in starships, and perhaps most likely, is ''REALLY EXPENSIVE'' to manufacture! The Empire is strapped for resources and manufacturing capacity, enough so that conquering one major agriworld makes the difference between being able to adequately feed the crews of 150 or so new cruisers; and that the loss of one Star Destroyer is not merely an embarrassment, but a potentially serious blow to the Navy's ability to fight. Thrawn often errs on the side of not disposing of people when you might expect him to - Ferrier, Mara, C'Baoth - so he is certainly not likely to sabotage an expensive piece of equipment unless he has a desperate or VERY strategically useful reason. He probably doesn't expect the asteroid blockade to last indefinitely anyway...
23rd Jul '16 12:55:08 PM fibonnaciseries
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** Actually, I'm pretty sure it's your timing that's off, not the OP's. Karrde gives the New Republic the evidence that there were only twenty two asteroids when he's on Coruscant. After having done so, he and Leia fly from Coruscant to Wayland; from what I recall at least a week's flight. They arrive on Wayland during the raid on Mt. Tantiss. Pellaeon receives word of this raid during the Battle of Bilbringi; depending on how you think the interstellar communication works, either concurrent to, or after, the events on Wayland, but obviously not before. Therefore, there was at very minimum the span of time it takes to fly from Coruscant to Wayland between when the New Republic was told that they'd taken care of all the asteroids and the start of the Battle of Bilbringi in which they could have called off the attack, had they been willing to trust the evidence given to them by Karrde.
20th Jul '16 7:38:14 PM phoenixrider
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** Hate to reach for the copout answer but, well, the guy is insane. And insanity by definition can ignore the bleedingly obvious. In his mind he simultaneously thinks The correct name was always Joruus while saying Jorus. Or his mind is simply incapable of conceiving he is a clone of someone else. He could have even created memories to fit his own delusion of changing his name and ending up on Wayland. In the end, yeah it's not a problem when the insane guy's logic makes no sense.
This list shows the last 10 events of 58. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.TheThrawnTrilogy