History Headscratchers / TheLionKing

24th Feb '17 9:18:35 PM QuarrelsomeChevon
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[[WMG: Simba fighting]]
* How does Simba know how to fight well enough to hold his own against Nala when they encounter each other as adults? There weren't any animals in the jungle he grew up in he could've hunted to hone his skills - Timon said so - and no lions from whom he could've learned to fight. Did he learn that much in the short time before Mufasa was killed?
20th Feb '17 4:59:35 PM Everlighte
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*** Logically, the lionesses knew Simba, as only a little cub, would never kill Mufasa on purpose. So yeah I think they were just shocked and didn't do anything out of being frozen on the spot. I mean, why would they think Simba is a monster for something that an accident?

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*** Logically, the lionesses hopefully knew Simba, as only a little cub, would never kill Mufasa on purpose. So yeah I think they were just shocked and didn't do anything out of being frozen on the spot. I mean, why would they think Simba is a monster for something that an accident?
20th Feb '17 4:59:03 PM Everlighte
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to:

*** Logically, the lionesses knew Simba, as only a little cub, would never kill Mufasa on purpose. So yeah I think they were just shocked and didn't do anything out of being frozen on the spot. I mean, why would they think Simba is a monster for something that an accident?
17th Feb '17 4:55:28 AM ben9192
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** I think the fact of whether the ghost of Mufasa is real or just a figment of Simba’s imagination is voluntarily ambiguous, and left to the viewer’s interpretation. However, since he didn’t tell him about his death, one may presume that it is probably just a hallucination (fits in the context of Simba’s disarray, done to make him take the good decision). However, the problem is the [[ContinuitySnarl sequels decided he was real]]: on a more subtle way with Simba’s Pride, and taken UpToEleven in the new series ''WesternAnimation/TheLionGuard'', where Kion chats with him from times to times. So, yeah, it is retroactively a big problem for the Lion King, because there is no clue why he suddenly shows himself this one night, and not long before, like e.g…. when Pridelands were still a bit preserved and the population wasn’t all dead. It is not only Simba’s business, all the country is concerned. If Mufasa is really in the stars, he bears a big part of the guilt by his silence, along with Scar who is directly responsible.
** This isn't a problem when you consider that Simba's laidback lifestyle living with Timon and Pumba had lead to him forgetting who he was, and the reason he came to be exiled from the Pridelands. It took Rafiki to open his heart up to his past and allow him to contact Mufasa on the astral plane. Presumably, Mufasa had been trying to reach him many times over the years, but Simba had no reason to hear him until now.

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** I think the fact of whether the ghost of Mufasa is real or just a figment of Simba’s imagination is voluntarily ambiguous, ambiguous in the film, and left to the viewer’s interpretation. However, since he didn’t tell him about his death, one may presume that it Mufasa's ghost is probably just a hallucination (fits in the context of Simba’s disarray, done to make him take the good decision). However, the problem is the [[ContinuitySnarl sequels decided he was real]]: on a more subtle way with Simba’s Pride, and taken UpToEleven in the new series ''WesternAnimation/TheLionGuard'', where Kion chats with him from times to times. So, yeah, it is retroactively a big problem for the Lion King, because it raises a few question. Putting aside the fact he is very very late to show himself (see the question below), why doesn't he tell right then to Simba that he has nothing to do with his death, and everything is Scar's fault? Sure he doesn't want to spoon-feed his destiny, but there is a difference between letting children learn on their own, and withholding such crucial informations in a whole affair of State. It would give him immediately the rage to fight, and clear any mark of his false guilt feelings he fought all these years, and which could unsettle him during the confrontation (what eventually happened, as we know).

[[WMG: Why did it take so long for Mufasa to appear as a ghost?]]
Under the hypothesis he is a real apparition from the afterlife, why could not he have manifested himself earlier. Ton of herbivores,(the people of the kingdom) have died meanwhile, and probably even some lionesses when you compare the crowded cave of the beginning, and the few ladies still remaining for the final battle. Don't their lives count at his eyes (background characters syndrome).
* This isn't a problem when you consider that Simba's laidback lifestyle living with Timon and Pumba had lead to him forgetting who he was, and the reason he came to be exiled from the Pridelands. It took Rafiki to open his heart up to his past and allow him to contact Mufasa on the astral plane. Presumably, Mufasa had been trying to reach him many times over the years, but Simba had no reason to hear him until now.
** Except there were still Rafiki he could have reached, since he is kind of a shaman. And wasn't Sarabi, his beloved wife, a relative close enough for him ? Or maybe Zazu, who was his majordomo ? There
is no clue why he suddenly shows himself this one night, night and only to his son, and not long before, before to anybody else, like e.g…. when Pridelands were still a bit preserved and the population wasn’t all dead. It is not only Simba’s business, all the country is concerned. If Mufasa is really in the stars, he bears a big part of the guilt by his silence, along with Scar who is directly responsible.
** This isn't *** You can still try to cobble things together by saying it only workd between sons and fathers (on a problem when patrilineal way). However, there is still the strange case of Rafiki. If you consider add the fact he seemed to know before everybody else that Simba's laidback lifestyle living with Timon and Pumba had lead to him forgetting who he was, and Scar killed his guard in the reason he came to be exiled from the Pridelands. It took Rafiki to open his heart up to his past and allow him to contact Mufasa on the astral plane. Presumably, Mufasa had been trying to reach him many times over the years, but Simba had no reason to hear him until now.
series, you can seriously wonder what this guy is scheming.
2nd Feb '17 5:45:26 PM TooManyIdeasInMyHead
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It’s a remarkable example of logical fallacy. Scar bounds the definition of “murderer” to the lone fact Simba played a role in his death. This is technically true, since it is for saving the life of his son that Mufasa jumped in the middle of a raging stampede, but he abusively concludes to the fault, and thus, guilt of Simba, like if the stampede had been entirely Simba’s plot to bring forward the succession. Of course, Simba rightly denies to be a murderer, but without disconcerting the bias of Scar’s argumentation. Then, we cut short to the next scene, so there is barely fifteen seconds before Scar’s own admission, prompting finally the lionesses to react. Thanks to this short time span, the argument of “lionesses too shocked to thing” may hold ground, especially if you add the fact they just learned a minute ago (except Nala) that the prince thought to be long dead is alive. That makes a lot to process. So, meanwhile, they prefer not to intervene in the two males “duel”, as it is tradition.
But it's right you can seriously wonder what Sarabi is imagining when she exclaims “That can’t be true”. Personally, I would need a long explanation to understand how a little cub may have caused the death of a big-built lion like Mufasa.

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It’s **It’s a remarkable example of logical fallacy. Scar bounds the definition of “murderer” to the lone fact Simba played a role in his death. This is technically true, since it is for saving the life of his son that Mufasa jumped in the middle of a raging stampede, but he abusively concludes to the fault, and thus, guilt of Simba, like if the stampede had been entirely Simba’s plot to bring forward the succession. Of course, Simba rightly denies to be a murderer, but without disconcerting the bias of Scar’s argumentation. Then, we cut short to the next scene, so there is barely fifteen seconds before Scar’s own admission, prompting finally the lionesses to react. Thanks to this short time span, the argument of “lionesses too shocked to thing” may hold ground, especially if you add the fact they just learned a minute ago (except Nala) that the prince thought to be long dead is alive. That makes a lot to process. So, meanwhile, they prefer not to intervene in the two males “duel”, as it is tradition.
tradition. But it's right you can seriously wonder what Sarabi is imagining when she exclaims “That can’t be true”. Personally, I would need a long explanation to understand how a little cub may have caused the death of a big-built lion like Mufasa.
**Let me explain in what I think would be a paraphrased version of what Sarabi (and probably the rest of the lionesses besides Nala) are thinking at the time: "Your mate and son died years ago. In that time your brother-in-law has let hyenas into your territory and has let your home become a horrific, desolate land, and is being a terrible dick of a ruler by willing to let everyone starve just because he has too big of an ego. Then he slaps you and-what's that ? HOLY CRAP ITS YOUR HUSBAND BACK FROM THE DEAD!!! But WAIT! No it's not, sadly. But it IS YOUR SON WHO YOU THOUGHT WAS DEAD!!! HE'S ALL GROWN UP NOW!!! AND HE'S COME TO SAVE EVERYONE FROM STARVATION AND SLOW DEATH AND END YOUR TYRANTS RULE!!! But what's THIS?!?! GASP: YOUR SON IS RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR HUSBANDS DEATH!!! NO! THAT CAN'T BE TRUE!!! BUT HANG ON SOME MORE!!! YOUR TYRANT/BROTHER-IN-LAW IS THE REAL ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR HUSBANDS DEATH!!! YOUR SON IS BEING MAULED BY SOME HYENAS NOW!!! TIME TO SPRING INTO ACTION!!!" So as you can see, Sarabi and the lionesses were probably shocked by all the bombs that they had sprung in them in what literally was six minutes. It's a bit excuseable to think that MAYBE they were so shocked they couldn't do much until they snapped out of it when Simba started fighting the hyenas.
27th Jan '17 3:43:28 PM StFan
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** I think the fact of whether the ghost of Mufasa is real or just a figment of Simba’s imagination is voluntarily ambiguous, and left to the viewer’s interpretation. However, since he didn’t tell him about his death, one may presume that it is probably just a hallucination (fits in the context of Simba’s disarray, done to make him take the good decision). However, the problem is the [[ContinuitySnarl sequels decided he was real]]: on a more subtle way with Simba’s Pride, and taken UpToEleven in the new series TheLionGuard, where Kion chats with him from times to times. So, yeah, it is retroactively a big problem for the Lion King, because there is no clue why he suddenly shows himself this one night, and not long before, like e.g…. when Pridelands were still a bit preserved and the population wasn’t all dead. It is not only Simba’s business, all the country is concerned. If Mufasa is really in the stars, he bears a big part of the guilt by his silence, along with Scar who is directly responsible.

to:

** I think the fact of whether the ghost of Mufasa is real or just a figment of Simba’s imagination is voluntarily ambiguous, and left to the viewer’s interpretation. However, since he didn’t tell him about his death, one may presume that it is probably just a hallucination (fits in the context of Simba’s disarray, done to make him take the good decision). However, the problem is the [[ContinuitySnarl sequels decided he was real]]: on a more subtle way with Simba’s Pride, and taken UpToEleven in the new series TheLionGuard, ''WesternAnimation/TheLionGuard'', where Kion chats with him from times to times. So, yeah, it is retroactively a big problem for the Lion King, because there is no clue why he suddenly shows himself this one night, and not long before, like e.g…. when Pridelands were still a bit preserved and the population wasn’t all dead. It is not only Simba’s business, all the country is concerned. If Mufasa is really in the stars, he bears a big part of the guilt by his silence, along with Scar who is directly responsible.
18th Jan '17 5:58:42 PM orrink
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to:

** The hyenas are animals and operate by nature and instinct. It's not necessarily logical to think that they are going through all the permutations in their head of "should we turn on Scar or not turn on Scar." The further you get away from the main characters in "Lion King" and Disney films in that vein, the more animal-like they are.

6th Jan '17 9:22:23 AM FlashSteps
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* this Troper always thought he didn't want to do it himself because he was like 'big stampede = big chance some one saw that'... Don't you think any lionesses seeing/hearing such a stampede would investigate WHY there is such a stampede? It would have looked very wrong had they seen him slay Simba. Some hyena's however...

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* this Troper I always thought he didn't want to do it himself because he was like 'big stampede = big chance some one saw that'... Don't you think any lionesses seeing/hearing such a stampede would investigate WHY there is such a stampede? It would have looked very wrong had they seen him slay Simba. Some hyena's however...



[[WMG:This Troper just realized something that's less an IJBM and more a I want to make sure I'm not crazy thing.]]

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[[WMG:This Troper [[WMG:I just realized something that's less an IJBM and more a I want to make sure I'm not crazy thing.]]




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** This isn't a problem when you consider that Simba's laidback lifestyle living with Timon and Pumba had lead to him forgetting who he was, and the reason he came to be exiled from the Pridelands. It took Rafiki to open his heart up to his past and allow him to contact Mufasa on the astral plane. Presumably, Mufasa had been trying to reach him many times over the years, but Simba had no reason to hear him until now.
5th Jan '17 10:51:01 AM ben9192
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[[WMG: How could the lionesses have thought Simba, at the time a baby lion cub, could have taken out the biggest full grown lion in the kingdom?]]
No one thought that Simba was able to attack and kill his father. The only thing that would make sense, assuming they simply weren't confused, was that he did something reckless, similar to the elephant graveyard incident. Regardless of what they were thinking, the last thing they were expecting to hear from Simba was that he was responsible for his father's death. That's not something you hear every day.
* Simba tries yet to argue back it was an accident, still convinced it is his little roar which provoked the stampede, but Scar as the skilled manipulator he is, managed to torn words so the meaning of "murderer" becomes quite large.
** So the lionesses believed that counted as being a murderer? So because his little roar allegedly accidentally started the stampede that killed his father, were the lionesses (except Nala)- [[WhattheHellHero even his own mother -]] willing to let Simba [[WhattheHellHero DIE because of something that had to have been an accident?]] If not, then why didn't they help him until Scar confessed?


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[[WMG: How could the lionesses have thought Simba, at the time a baby little lion cub, '''cub''', could have taken out the biggest full grown lion in the kingdom?]]
No one thought that Simba was able to attack and kill his father. The only thing that would make sense, assuming they simply weren't confused, was that he did something reckless, similar to the elephant graveyard incident. incident, so he is indirectly responsible by puttting himself in such situations endangering his life as well as his dad's who came twice to save him. Regardless of what they were thinking, the last thing they were expecting to hear from Simba was that he was responsible for his father's death.death : he admits ''himself'' his guilt. That's not something you hear every day.
* Simba tries yet to argue back it was an accident, still convinced it is his little roar which provoked the stampede, but Scar as the skilled manipulator he is, managed to torn turn words so the meaning of "murderer" becomes quite large.
** So the lionesses believed that counted as being a murderer? So because his little roar allegedly accidentally ''accidentally'' started the stampede that killed his father, were the lionesses (except Nala)- [[WhattheHellHero even his own mother -]] willing to let Simba [[WhattheHellHero DIE because of something that had to have been an accident?]] If not, then why didn't they help him until Scar confessed?

confessed?
*** If you look in detail at the dialogue, after Simba's admission, it reads:
-->'''Scar:''' You see! He admits it! Murderer!\\
'''Simba:''' No. It was an accident.\\
'''Scar:''' If it weren't for you, Mufasa would still be alive. It's your fault he's dead; do you deny it?\\
'''Simba:''' No.\\
'''Scar:''' Then... you're... guilty.
It’s a remarkable example of logical fallacy. Scar bounds the definition of “murderer” to the lone fact Simba played a role in his death. This is technically true, since it is for saving the life of his son that Mufasa jumped in the middle of a raging stampede, but he abusively concludes to the fault, and thus, guilt of Simba, like if the stampede had been entirely Simba’s plot to bring forward the succession. Of course, Simba rightly denies to be a murderer, but without disconcerting the bias of Scar’s argumentation. Then, we cut short to the next scene, so there is barely fifteen seconds before Scar’s own admission, prompting finally the lionesses to react. Thanks to this short time span, the argument of “lionesses too shocked to thing” may hold ground, especially if you add the fact they just learned a minute ago (except Nala) that the prince thought to be long dead is alive. That makes a lot to process. So, meanwhile, they prefer not to intervene in the two males “duel”, as it is tradition.
But it's right you can seriously wonder what Sarabi is imagining when she exclaims “That can’t be true”. Personally, I would need a long explanation to understand how a little cub may have caused the death of a big-built lion like Mufasa.
26th Dec '16 2:03:14 PM Morgenthaler
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* Zazu's a ButtMonkey. Just as a BadAss warps to follow the RuleOfCool, a ButtMonkey warps reality toward Slapstick Comedy. Therefore, anything that would lethal and dramatic to anyone else instead affects him in the most ludicrous way possible.

to:

* Zazu's a ButtMonkey. Just as a BadAss badass warps to follow the RuleOfCool, a ButtMonkey warps reality toward Slapstick Comedy. Therefore, anything that would lethal and dramatic to anyone else instead affects him in the most ludicrous way possible.
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