History Headscratchers / TheDarkKnight

7th Jun '18 7:08:38 AM MrDeath
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*** What autopsy? You do an autopsy to find out why someone died. Gordon was shot in broad daylight in front of hundreds of people and apparently died on the spot. There'd be no reason to perform an autopsy.
6th Jun '18 6:34:09 PM MoPete
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** To explain it more, he's putting Gordon in the same situation he himself was in. He had to sit, helpless, and tell his family (in this case, his fiancee) that everything was going to be all right, even though he knew it wasn't. He forced the same thing on Gordon, making him tell his son that everything was going to be all right, even though, at the moment, his life depended on the flip of a coin, as far as Two-Face was concerned.
29th May '18 1:18:54 PM dmcreif
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***Depending on how long Gordon had to stay "dead", Stephens may also have made an excuse that with all the people the Joker killed, the morgue had been backed up with corpses to be autopsied, so Gordon's autopsy would just have to wait in line.
29th May '18 1:07:39 PM dmcreif
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*** Once again, police procedure. If there's a bomb known to be located in a building with no visual, ESPECIALLY if it's on a timer, the police are supposed to NOT enter the building unprepared, because all that would do is cost them more innocent lives should the bomb go off while they're inside. The correct procedure is to get visual of the bomb and the hostage through infrared or the like (if possible), and then send in a team to extract the hostage and/or neutralize the bomb after evacuating the area. It's a very lengthy process. If the Joker actually said specifically when the bomb would go off (he didn't) that might have changed things if desperation to save the hostage was a factor, since they would probably ignore procedure in that case.
*** Police Procedure or not, it takes more time to assemble a squad of men, get them into kit, and then get them into cars, and then drive them there, no matter how urgent it is. Batman has better equipment, he can go out alone right now, and he has the Batcar to drive there in.

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*** Once again, police procedure. If there's a bomb known to be located in a building with no visual, ESPECIALLY if it's ''especially'' one that might be on a timer, the police are supposed to NOT ''not'' enter the building unprepared, because all that would do is cost them more innocent lives should the bomb go off while they're inside. The correct procedure is to get a visual of the bomb and the hostage through infrared or the like (if possible), and then send in a team in special suits to extract the hostage and/or neutralize the bomb after evacuating the area. It's a very lengthy process. If the Joker actually said specifically when the bomb would go off (he didn't) that might have changed things if desperation to save the hostage was a factor, since they the police in that situation would probably ignore procedure in that case.
*** Police Procedure procedure or not, it takes more time to assemble a the bomb squad of men, members, get them into kit, their special suits, and then get them into their cars, and then drive them there, no matter how urgent it is. Batman has better equipment, he can go out alone right now, and he has the Batcar to drive there in.



** [[spoiler:By the time Gordon answered and Batman explained the situation to him, cops may have started shooting civilians by mistake. Furthermore, Gordon's heard from Harvey by that point, so there's no guarantee he's still there and in easy contact with the other officers.]]
*** Because ''there was no time to explain'': SWAT teams in real police department are trained to hit a location as simultaneously and as quickly as possible. Batman simply doesn't have the time to go through the chain of command. In fact, despite his efforts, he's still barely fast enough to take them all down and get them to rethink shooting the hostages. And he has to ''blow up'' part of the building to do it. By the time orders came through, a lot of people would've been dead.
*** Thing is, in at least some real-life hostage rescue teams, it is a standard procedure to disarm, secure and detain EVERYONE in a building, then work out who actually is a hostage and who wasn't/isn't. I think that's what the NYPD in ''Film/InsideMan'' did (That said, I'm not sure how this works when the hostages have guns taped to their hands, tape over their mouths and a mask on their faces (more flashbangs?). It's also normally done in cases where a hostage taker in civilian clothing drops/hides their weapon during a hostage rescue.

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** [[spoiler:By Because by the time Gordon answered and Batman explained the situation to him, cops the SWAT team may have started shooting civilians by mistake. Furthermore, Gordon's heard from Harvey by that point, so there's no guarantee he's he'd still be there and in easy contact with the other officers.]]
*** Because ''there was no time to explain'': SWAT teams in real police department are trained to hit a location as simultaneously and as quickly as possible. Batman simply doesn't have the time to go through the chain of command. In fact, despite his efforts, he's still barely fast enough to take them all down and get them to rethink shooting the hostages. And he has to ''blow up'' part of the building to do it. By the time orders the information came through, a lot of people would've been dead.
*** Thing is, in at least some real-life hostage rescue teams, it is a standard procedure to disarm, secure and detain EVERYONE in a building, then work out who actually is a hostage and who wasn't/isn't. I think that's what the NYPD in ''Film/InsideMan'' did (That said, I'm not sure how (How does this works work when the hostages have guns taped to their hands, tape over their mouths and a mask on their faces (more flashbangs?). flashbangs?) It's also normally done in cases where a hostage taker in civilian clothing drops/hides their weapon during a hostage rescue.



** He was also pressed for time. He had to stop the SWAT team from accidentally killing the hostages, stop the bad guys from ambushing the SWAT team and confront the Joker once and for all - and all before either boat could blow the other up, or the Joker blew them up anyways.

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** He was also pressed for time. He had to stop the SWAT team from accidentally killing the hostages, stop the bad guys from ambushing the SWAT team and confront the Joker once and for all - and all, ''and'' all before either boat could blow the other up, or the Joker blew them up anyways.anyways. No time to get on a radio and go through the chain of command.



** [[spoiler: We also never see his legs. Assuming one leg is broken (reasonable), he might just have a walking cast on it, using the cane to keep pressure of it. Your timeline isn't off, but it's not unbelievable at all. People with broken legs, especially shin bones, can be walking ''the same day'' they broke it, although that's usually a bad idea.]]

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** [[spoiler: We also never see his bare legs. Assuming one leg is broken (reasonable), he Maroni might just have a walking cast on it, using the cane to keep pressure of it. Your timeline isn't off, but it's not unbelievable at all. People with broken legs, especially shin bones, can be walking ''the same day'' they broke it, although that's usually a bad idea.]]



** He probably paid people to do it. In the opening scene, the hired goons are talking about how Joker is really good at planning things. So Joker makes off with the bank money and uses some of it to pay people to secretly rig explosives in the hospital, then has them killed later on.

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** He probably paid people to do it. In the opening scene, the The hired goons he selects for the bank robbery are seen talking about how Joker is really good at planning things. So Joker makes off with the bank money and uses some of it to pay people to secretly rig explosives in the hospital, then has them killed later on.



** "Phenomenally stupid guards, perhaps?" No, just Wuertz handing him over to the Joker's goons. Which is the whole reason Harvey shot him later on.

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** "Phenomenally stupid guards, perhaps?" No, just Wuertz handing him Dent over to the Joker's goons. Which is the whole reason Harvey shot him later on.



** The Joker is about ''chaos.'' I don't think he was 'timing' anything. I think the Joker was being honest when he said he's "not a schemer." He doesn't make plans, he just screws up other people's plans. My evidence for this is his use of the glass shard to take Stevens hostage. How could he know he'd have access to a shard of glass? He was improvising the whole time. The whole situation at the MCU was just half IndyPloy, half XanatosGambit. All he knew going in was that he did in fact have both Harvey and Rachel tied up, with a bomb set to blow them both up. If Batman never shows up, he sends cops after both of them, further reducing the amount of cops in the building. If he doesn't think he can set off his bomb, he just uses his hostages to force the police to let him go. When Batman showed up, he decided to use his hostages to get rid of the Bat and the cops. He switched the addresses so that whatever choice Batman made would be wrong; and if Batman had showed up too late to save Harvey, that would have been fine. If he'd saved just Rachel, that wouldn't make a difference. If he'd saved them both, that wouldn't have mattered much to him either. The only thing he kind of ''needed'' to do was get out of jail with Lau, and even then he wouldn't have cared too much if the explosion had just killed Lau. Or himself. Or both. And if he didn't get his "phone call," he'd probably have one of his thugs call the station. The point is: the Joker didn't have a meticulous plan to turn Harvey into Two-Face; he just wanted to cause as much chaos as possible and the whole situation was simply him seizing opportunities to do so.

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** The Joker is about ''chaos.'' I don't think he was 'timing' anything. I think the Joker was being honest when he said he's "not a schemer." He doesn't make plans, he just screws up other people's plans. My evidence for this is his use of the glass shard to take Stevens hostage. How could he know he'd have access to a shard of glass? He was improvising the whole time. The whole situation at the MCU was just half IndyPloy, half XanatosGambit. All he knew going in was that he did in fact have both Harvey and Rachel tied up, with a bomb set to blow them both up. If Batman never shows up, he sends cops after both of them, further reducing the amount of cops in the building.building he'd have to deal with when breaking Lau out. If he doesn't think he can set off his bomb, he just uses his hostages to force the police to let him go. When Batman showed up, he decided to use his hostages to get rid of the Bat and the cops. He switched the addresses so that whatever choice Batman made would be wrong; and if Batman had showed up too late to save Harvey, that would have been fine. If he'd saved just Rachel, that wouldn't make a difference. If he'd saved them both, that wouldn't have mattered much to him either. The only thing he kind of ''needed'' to do was get out of jail with Lau, and even then he wouldn't have cared too much if the explosion had just killed Lau. Or himself. Or both. And if he didn't get his "phone call," he'd probably have one of his thugs call the station. The point is: the Joker didn't have a meticulous plan to turn Harvey into Two-Face; he just wanted to cause as much chaos as possible and the whole situation was simply him seizing opportunities to do so.



** It's simpler than you guys are making it out to be. The Joker knows where Central Booking is, and he knows where his goons are going to stash Rachel and Harvey. He can work out how long it would take the cops to get from the station to Rachel's address, and then shave a minute off. He also knows that either Batman or Gordon and likely both are going to come in and start PerpSweating him ''immediately'' once they learned that Harvey and Rachel were kidnapped, and he can control when they learn that information. Whether or not Batman succeeds in rescuing Dent is immaterial. If Batman fails, Dent dies horribly and future white knights are intimidated. If Batman saves Dent, Rachel still dies and Dent is broken.

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** It's simpler than you guys are making it out to be. The Joker knows where Central Booking is, and he knows where his goons are going to stash Rachel and Harvey. He can work out with Google Maps how long it would take the cops to get from the station to Rachel's address, and then shave a minute off. He also knows that either Batman or Gordon and likely both are going to come in and start PerpSweating him ''immediately'' once they learned that Harvey and Rachel were kidnapped, and he can control when they learn that information. Whether or not Batman succeeds in rescuing Dent is immaterial. If Batman fails, Dent dies horribly and future white knights are intimidated. If Batman saves Dent, Rachel still dies and Dent is broken.
15th May '18 9:38:31 AM rastanley
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** The Joker didn't give them many opportunities to cross him. He starts off by murdering Gambol and absorbing his organization into his own, which sends a pretty clear message to Maroni and the Chechen about how pissing the Joker off is a bad idea. Also, the mob wouldn't have wanted to betray the Joker until after Lau was secured, so they're pretty much stuck with him until after he pulls off his heist in the MCU. Immediately afterwards, Maroni ''does'' betray the Joker, and the Joker simply adapts to the situation by distracting the cops with a different threat.
15th May '18 9:29:54 AM rastanley
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** The plan is to get the Joker to let his guard down so that they can arrest him, and to rely on the Batman for support. Calling in ground support prematurely, from their perspective, might scare him off.
15th May '18 9:26:09 AM rastanley
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*** It wouldn't be as effective in this case, especially since the Joker already tried that trick. Mainly, though, no matter what Joker says, the GCPD is going to prioritize Gotham General because Harvey is checked in there. Gordon is going to assume Joker knows this because he knows the Joker has informants in his unit (he admits as much to Harvey), and Joker knows that Gordon knows he knows, because he also indicated that his cops are working for him during his breakout from the MCU. Basically, in this case, the KansasCityShuffle is Joker doing exactly what he said he was going to do. Because it's the Joker.
15th May '18 9:08:00 AM rastanley
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** The Joker has informants in Gordon's unit. It's possible he had a rough idea of what the escort route was and where air support would come into play.
15th May '18 9:06:37 AM rastanley
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[[folder:I couldn't risk my families safety.]]
* At one point in the movie Gordon fakes his death, and even lets one of his cops break the news to his family. Later on he said it was because he couldn't risk their safety. Except... Joker wasn't gunning for him, at least any more than any other cop. And neither was the mob, despite that Gordon's the head of the unit. I guess it's more of a 'just in case' thing while they attempt to capture the Joker, but we're given no indication that him being alive would lead to his family being in danger from either of the big threats at that time.(Joker and the mob)
** The Joker had previously assassinated Commissioner Loeb. As next-in-line, it's reasonable for Gordon to take some precautions, especially since he's the head of the Joker investigation. It's not unusual for the mob to threaten loved ones (Carmine Falcone says as much to Bruce in BatmanBegins), so there ''is'' precedent for his concerns.

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[[folder:I couldn't risk my families family's safety.]]
* At one point in the movie Gordon fakes his death, and even lets one of his cops break the news to his family. Later on he said it was because he couldn't risk their safety. Except... Joker wasn't gunning for him, at least any more than any other cop. And neither was the mob, despite that Gordon's the head of the unit. I guess it's more of a 'just in case' thing while they attempt to capture the Joker, but we're given no indication that him being alive would lead to his family being in danger from either of the big threats at that time.time (Joker and the mob)
mob).
** The Joker had previously assassinated Commissioner Loeb. As next-in-line, it's reasonable for Gordon to take some precautions, especially since he's the head of the Joker investigation. It's not unusual for the mob to threaten loved ones (Carmine Falcone says as much to Bruce in BatmanBegins), so there ''is'' precedent for his concerns.decision. Gordon is also promoted to Commissioner immediately upon coming back, so it's very likely that he had had a discussion with the mayor about the need for a new Commissioner after Loeb's assassination, and that's when Gordon's concerns were raised, resulting in the plan.
15th May '18 9:04:37 AM rastanley
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At one point in the movie Gordon fakes his death, and even lets one of his cops break the news to his family. Later on he said it was because he couldn't risk their safety. Except... Joker wasn't gunning for him, at least any more than any other cop. And neither was the mob, despite that Gordon's the head of the unit. I guess it's more of a 'just in case' thing while they attempt to capture the Joker, but we're given no indication that him being alive would lead to his family being in danger from either of the big threats at that time.(Joker and the mob)

to:

* At one point in the movie Gordon fakes his death, and even lets one of his cops break the news to his family. Later on he said it was because he couldn't risk their safety. Except... Joker wasn't gunning for him, at least any more than any other cop. And neither was the mob, despite that Gordon's the head of the unit. I guess it's more of a 'just in case' thing while they attempt to capture the Joker, but we're given no indication that him being alive would lead to his family being in danger from either of the big threats at that time.(Joker and the mob)mob)
** The Joker had previously assassinated Commissioner Loeb. As next-in-line, it's reasonable for Gordon to take some precautions, especially since he's the head of the Joker investigation. It's not unusual for the mob to threaten loved ones (Carmine Falcone says as much to Bruce in BatmanBegins), so there ''is'' precedent for his concerns.
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