History Headscratchers / TheCabinInTheWoods

2nd Jan '17 5:29:15 PM DesignatedNPC
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*** But the Controllers are not "doing the same thing and expecting different results." The entirety of the operation is based on doing the same thing and expecting ''the same results'', because the results in question ''prevent the destruction of the world.'' "Seeing what comes next" is going to result in one of two things: Utter destruction of everything or a world where some other lifeform emerges and becomes dominant, a lifeform that will return to the performance of ritual murder because they'll still have to deal with the Ancient Ones, who given what little we know of them will likely continue to exist for as long as the world exists. In the case of destruction, "what comes next" is nonexistence; in the case of a new dominant lifeform, the cycle simply continues, only there's 7 billion people gone because two traumatized teenagers decided that if they and their friends had to die everyone else might as well die with them. Additionally, if the Organization's "moral flaw" is that they expect the sacrifices to die without giving them the chance to make that choice, what makes Dana and Marty any better? Not only do they condemn a planet's worth of people to, at best, a quick death (at worst an extended torture, given the Ancient Ones' apparent power and tastes in entertainment) but they give the rest of the world even less choice than they themselves were given: They had the choice to turn back after encountering Mordecai, despite not knowing the stakes at the time. The rest of the world doesn't even get that much from our two brave heroes, and this mass death isn't even a sacrifice because that would mean an expectation that something good would result; when the ritual sacrifices die, it's to preserve the world. When Marty and Dana let the world end it's because they've given up, not enough to simply die but apparently enough to take everyone with them. Ultimately, Marty and Dana ''didn't'' accept their fate, even or especially after the Director explained why it was necessary. The argument that they were somehow representative of "the real human community" or that they "understood mature decision-making" or "had superior moral courage" is hollow because we see none of that demonstrated at the end. When confronted with the reason, when they knew that these deaths were required to prevent the End of the World, they didn't take a second to think about all the people they were condemning to likely worse torment and death than what happened to their friends. Dana and Marty ''are'' murdering and torturing others by proxy, just like the Controllers, but on a vastly larger scale, without the intention of creating something better. Their actions are less a temper tantrum and more the sulking of children: If I can't go to recess (that is, live happily ignorant), then the rest of the class can't either. In fact, Marty and Dana's actions are far closer to those of the Ancient Ones: By the end of the movie, they're content to destroy everything without thought for anyone else because things don't or can't go the way they want it to. Dana and Marty's decision may be understandable, given everything they've been through, but it's nothing but reflexive action at best, utter selfishness at worst.
2nd Jan '17 9:16:16 AM Doomboy911
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** It also helps to have a hard physical defense around your death monsters, if the power goes out for something as simple as a stoner pulling the wire all it takes is someone spilling coffee over the wrong control panel and all the forcefields go off and carnage. Having a hard metal wall in a blackout makes for a pretty hand back up.
8th Dec '16 3:39:04 AM radams
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** The Buckners are described as "pain worshippers", so perhaps they like to kill their victims slowly and as painfully as possible. They deliberately make their first attack non-lethal when they can.
5th Dec '16 5:30:23 AM radams
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* And continuing from above: when Dana is a monster now, what's going to happen to her? Or does it only count when she's transformed?

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* And continuing from above: when Dana is a monster now, what's going to happen happenF to her? Or does it only count when she's transformed?




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** The Directors say that the teens have to "transgress" - they have to do something that they can be punished for. The mirror provides one opportunity for them to transgress by being a voyeur. Holden and Dana both spoil that part of the ritual by refusing the temptation to watch the other one naked.
3rd Nov '16 8:20:05 AM Baopuzi
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From my own perspective, we're only told how bad the Ancient Ones are by people who are afraid of them and have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and who are shown to be fairly impotent in a number of ways (Hadley's having fertility issues, and is generally hostile to the changes a child will bring; the youth having sex vs. the older ones just watching/talking about it, and hostile to real sex; plenty of other examples; on a meta-level Sigourney Weaver's casting alludes to "Alien" and the rape/victimization terror sexuality there, plus the Evil Dead rape trees, all that) vs. the maybe a bit unhealthy (Dana sleeping with her professor) but potent and fertile sexuality of the protagonists. Even sexual potency aside, the information, the basic courage and effectiveness of The Organization in fighting the monsters is definitely not unquestionable. How inviolate can the "rules" be, how "unstoppable" are the monsters and Ancient Ones and how "inevitable" can the end of the world be if a classroom full of 9 year old girls can derail their plans? They didn't even have automatic weapons. They turned a ghost into a happy frog with just teamwork and joy and all they got for it was invective(s) from Gary.
2nd Nov '16 8:52:34 AM Baopuzi
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**Given Whedon’s nihilism, yes, the lives of two teenagers are worth seven billion lives. And indeed, because they are scared and pathetic, and who is it that made them that way? Whedon is exploring the meaning of humanity not delving into popcorn cynicism or applauding pseudo-Nietzschean [[StrawNihilist straw nihilism.]] And yes, we’re supposed to see their actions as a triumph. Perhaps misguided, but the moral conundrum of the film is expediency to live vs. dutiful sacrifice. And we see true sacrifices: Marty risks himself against the clearly mad and possibly homicidal Mordecai because he was rude to his friend. The control room security chief [[MeaningfulName Daniel Truman]] risking his life to save others, even if it’s just for another few moments and finally [[TakingYouWithMe using a grenade to kill himself along with]] the scarecrows. Curt risking his life for his friends to jump the canyon. All these are knowing, willing sacrifices and that’s what differentiates them from the expedient sacrifices. The paradox flaw in the Organization’s morality is demanding an individual sacrifice themselves to the community without allowing the individual the right to be considered part of the community. And that’s where Whedon’s atheism comes in. There is no hope of something after the release of the Ancient Ones, but human community still matters. The only ones participating in any sort of community are the ones making knowing sacrifices. Contrast Daniel Truman’s refusal to enter the betting pool and his ultimate sacrifice with Wendy Lin’s apologetic hypocrisy and blowing others off attempting to save herself. Or Gary’s urging Dana to kill Marty. Well, why not kill him yourself Gary? Because he doesn’t want the responsibility and he’s a coward. Sure, The Ancient Ones have “rules” blah blah. But those are all clearly shown for the lies that they are. The rules aren’t that strict. They “work with what they have.” And people don’t have to choose to cruelly, and by implication more and more sadistically as time goes on, torture and kill young people. The people in The Organization are only doing it because they want to live and they’re afraid and not willing to make the sacrifices themselves. Where are their children? Where are their friends and loved ones? Marty and Dana on the other hand are continually shown to be willing to endanger themselves for someone else because they are compassionate. At the end they’re not willing to simply roll over and die because of someone else’s cowardice and lack of compassion. The meaning of one or two lives is no different than the meaning in ten billion. Certainly, the math works in terms of which is preferable to sacrifice. But existence doesn’t work that way. If numbers are all that matter then ten billion potatoes are worth more than two lives because there’s more. Hell, three potatoes are worth more than two human lives using that metric. But because lives have meaning and humans are part of a community, there is more to human existence than merely existing in sufficient numbers. Again, this is in universe. Whedon’s values. But they draw from a lot of IRL philosophical sources. So the idea it’s a stoner and some bitch deciding to selfishly end the world is misplaced. When they say “give someone else a turn” it’s in direct contrast to the stagnated worldview of The Organization that clearly holds human history/existence as a closed system. Dana and Marty accept that transformations can, and do occur, even for the catastrophically worst case scenario. And that takes moral courage. The kind of moral courage for a sacrifice that’s conspicuous by its absence. We see all kinds of pagan ritual sacrifices that are essentially empty paeans to pacify fear and cowardice in the face of existential emptiness. We do not see Christ’s sacrifice. And again, this is from the film’s perspective, I’m not attempting to lay a Christian trip on Whedon. But Christ was resigned to his fate and went to it knowingly. In contrast to the quite clearly and visually striking terrifying pagan rituals. The former is about hope and possibility. The latter is about an endlessly unchanging fixed reality that, at best, continually repeats itself. And that’s repeatedly stated. What’s the old line about insanity doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results? The Organization may be more practical, more grown up, more willing to compromise, but nothing they’ve done has changed anything in, by their own words, thousands of years. They have no expectation beyond causing more and more, and worse and worse, pain and suffering for eternity. Their moral failing is they refuse to accept death. They’re perfectly willing to power their world [[PoweredByAForsakenChild by forsaken children]] and they’re [[TheOnesWhoWalkAwayFromOmelas not willing to walk away]] Ever. Marty and Dana however are willing to roll the dice and accept death and change. That may be a more adult decision since there’s no expectation that they’re going to “save the world” somehow or anything will turn out all ok in the end. But, like mature adults, they accept their fate without destroying their humanity or murdering and torturing others in a temper tantrum because [[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt the universe doesn’t care.]]There is an anthology exploring these ideas in: Joss Whedon and Religion: Essays on an Angry Atheist's Explorations of the Sacred [[http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17804784-joss-whedon-and-religion/]]
8th Oct '16 3:00:55 PM 309216364
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*** I cannot lie... the ones who organize this ritual are sick. If they had simply this as a necessary evil instead of turning it into their sadistic horror film, [[HumansAreBastards betting on who will kill who]]; they deserve what happened to them. But that does not excuse Marty or Dana. As horrible as the ritual is, what is the point of living another few seconds? What is the point, other than just refusing to be a pawn and die free [[WhatTheHellHero at the cost of everyone else???]] I just can't accept that. There have to people other than the victims who they cared about; their parents and relatives, other friends... I mean REALLY? Do they honestly think this is the right choice? No, it proves that are just shitty humans, with fucked-up moral compasses. Like most teenagers.
1st Oct '16 9:40:02 AM MadBomber80
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* The Ancient Ones are a stand-in for the typical horror fan, which is why they get all pissy at "rituals" (ie. films) which subvert the formula. One problem though, despite how wildly the events of ''Film/TheCabinInTheWoods'' have differed from the average by the time Marty & Dana reach the Facility, apparently the Ancient Ones will be satisfied as long as Marty dies before Dana does. But the sort of typical horror fan the film satirises would actually be much more interested in a film/"ritual" with a non-subversive tone & ambience, rather than something really out-there in which the whore dies first & the virgin last, wouldn't they? The film itself implies this by referencing films in which that order isn't maintained, such as ''Film/TheEvilDead1981'' & ''Film/{{Alien}}''.

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* The Ancient Ones are a stand-in for the typical horror fan, which is why they get all pissy at "rituals" (ie. films) which subvert the formula. One problem though, despite how wildly the events of ''Film/TheCabinInTheWoods'' have differed from the average by the time Marty & Dana reach the Facility, apparently the Ancient Ones will be satisfied as long as Marty dies before Dana does. But the sort of typical horror fan the film satirises satirizes would actually be much more interested in a film/"ritual" with a non-subversive tone & ambience, rather than something really out-there in which the whore dies first & the virgin last, wouldn't they? The film itself implies this by referencing films in which that order isn't maintained, such as ''Film/TheEvilDead1981'' & ''Film/{{Alien}}''.




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** It's also possible that the blood was collected from the five kids in advance, as part of the Controllers' efforts. Considering what else they did, getting some blood 'donated' by the five isn't out of the range of their shown abilities.
25th Sep '16 2:36:47 AM Odakyu
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** I thought the button was just for that particular room. Something like the room being able to detect what's in it, and the purge button being used to release the monster most suited for purging the occupants of the room. It could have been used to see what archetypes trigger what monsters, or what happens with multiple people. Just this one time, there happened to be several heavily armored guards inside so it released several strong creatures to purge what was inside. And since the door was left open, out they went and chaos ensues. As for it releasing several waves of monsters, maybe it was able to recognize the room was still inhabited and thus kept sending out waves to try and kill the monsters already released.
17th Sep '16 11:33:57 PM seanscian
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**** The Medical readouts are seen really clearly at 49:23, Jules is dead in position #1, marked red, and Marty is in position #3. At 56:59 into the film, when Lin is walking in to ask about the tunnel not being blown, you can see that there are two red columns, #1 (Jules) and #3 (Marty). Maybe Marty was injured in a way that broke his monitor; it doesn't seem like he'd have already messed with the wiring (which makes me wonder WHO was messing with the upstairs power. Maybe Mordecai was finally fed up with the whole deal?
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