History Headscratchers / StarTrektheOriginalSeries

3rd Oct '17 9:00:39 PM costanton11
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* After Edith Keeler's death, how did Kirk, Spock and [=McCoy=] get back to the 23nd Century? Did the Guardian of Forever transport them back after the last 30s scene. And if they Guardian could just pull people back, since there's no way they could have made it to the planet it was on in the 1930s, why didn't the Guardian just bring [=McCoy=] back before he changed anything?

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* After Edith Keeler's death, how did Kirk, Spock and [=McCoy=] get back to the 23nd Century? Did the Guardian of Forever transport them back after the last 30s scene. And if they the Guardian could just pull people back, since there's no way they could have made it to the planet it was on in the 1930s, why didn't the Guardian just bring [=McCoy=] back before he changed anything?
23rd Sep '17 12:37:28 PM nombretomado
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*** This is probably another example of Roddenberry RetConning. He was initially looking for a way to bring audience attention back on Shatner, who was getting pissed that Nimoy was getting ten times the fan mail he was. It was [[http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/06/getting-star-trek-on-air-was-impossible.html Isaac Asimov who suggested that Roddenberry portray the two as friends]] so that Spock fans would pay attention to Kirk. It's a pretty safe bet that Roddenberry was talking out his ass in the book you're quoting from (which is the now-forgotten ''[[http://fanlore.org/wiki/Shatner:_Where_No_Man Where No Man]]'', a 1979 bio of Shat written by [[http://fanlore.org/wiki/Sondra_Marshak Sondra Marshak]] and Myrna Culbreath, a couple of [[AynRand Objectivist]] devotees who had some of the most bizarre ideas ever in ST fandom). Be that as it may, learning about slash gave Roddenberry himself the idea to include the "t'hy'la" business in his novel for ''Star Trek: The Motion Picture''. Fans who had never heard of slash discovered it through that infamous footnote. Also, Roddenberry himself was apparently accused of being gay as a child because he didn't fit the "[[ARealManIsAKiller real man]]" stereotype of his dad's culture. According to Creator/GeorgeTakei, he was very supportive of real gays.

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*** This is probably another example of Roddenberry RetConning. He was initially looking for a way to bring audience attention back on Shatner, who was getting pissed that Nimoy was getting ten times the fan mail he was. It was [[http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/06/getting-star-trek-on-air-was-impossible.html Isaac Asimov who suggested that Roddenberry portray the two as friends]] so that Spock fans would pay attention to Kirk. It's a pretty safe bet that Roddenberry was talking out his ass in the book you're quoting from (which is the now-forgotten ''[[http://fanlore.org/wiki/Shatner:_Where_No_Man Where No Man]]'', a 1979 bio of Shat written by [[http://fanlore.org/wiki/Sondra_Marshak Sondra Marshak]] and Myrna Culbreath, a couple of [[AynRand [[Creator/AynRand Objectivist]] devotees who had some of the most bizarre ideas ever in ST fandom). Be that as it may, learning about slash gave Roddenberry himself the idea to include the "t'hy'la" business in his novel for ''Star Trek: The Motion Picture''. Fans who had never heard of slash discovered it through that infamous footnote. Also, Roddenberry himself was apparently accused of being gay as a child because he didn't fit the "[[ARealManIsAKiller real man]]" stereotype of his dad's culture. According to Creator/GeorgeTakei, he was very supportive of real gays.
11th Sep '17 2:47:09 PM thatsnumberwang
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** The interesting thing about prequels is that they inadvertently retcon oh-so-much without ever intending to. In ''Enterprise'' it is revealed that the Orions are a matriarchal society that enslaves the males but makes out to the rest of the galaxy that it is the other way around in order to lower everyone's guard, which in a weird way actually kind of works as a strategy when you consider that the police are probably going to focus on the hulking master rather than his willowy slave. Now whilst that was a secret back in the 22nd century, how likely is it that it would still be to an experienced starship captain in the 23rd after Captain (later President) Archer no doubt made a log entry about it? It makes Pike sound more like he has an Amazon fantasy.
11th Sep '17 8:36:29 AM MadAnthony94
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* Another thing about the ''The Cage'' that bothers me. Pike contemplates settling down on Orion to start a business. The doctor scoffs at the idea and implies that trading in "animal women" and slaves is a major business on Orion. If this is meant to be a joke, Pike doesn't really dismiss it as one, and then one of the illusions his Keeper subjects him to is the famous Orion dancing girl scene. So... is Captain Pike actually fantasizing about/planning on going into sex slave trafficking after retirement? Our hero...
11th Sep '17 8:22:42 AM MadAnthony94
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** The simple answer is that Gene Roddenberry just thought the idea of a female yeoman was A) good evidence for how far humanity had come in this future and B) good Fanservice. The female yeoman idea goes all the way back to his first pilot with Pike's yeoman Colt.


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** By the same token, Chekov is a lowly ensign but already has a prominent position in the line of command. I've always taken both of these to be yet another subtle clue at how humanity has improved itself in the show's vision of the future: education standards are such that child prodigies seem almost commonplace.
1st Sep '17 7:55:13 PM NewVirginiaCreeper
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** Then there are Yeomans Burke and Samnel from ''The Undiscovered Country''.

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** Then there are Yeomans Burke and Samnel Samno from ''The Undiscovered Country''.
1st Sep '17 4:22:25 AM HalcyonDayz
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*** Except that unless you're telepathic there ''is'' no way to tell whether someone "genuinely" believes it or not... which in the particular context of Spock and [=McCoy=] might explain it, but we see in DS9 that O'Brien at least has some racism towards Cardassians, iirc, and there was that quarter-Romulan crewman in TNG who was apparently considered inherently suspicious by virtue of that fact, so it's not like bigotry has magically disappeared in the Federation.

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*** Except that unless you're telepathic there ''is'' no way to tell whether someone "genuinely" believes it or not... which in the particular context of Spock and [=McCoy=] might explain it, but we see in DS9 [=DS9=] that O'Brien at least has some racism towards Cardassians, iirc, and there was that quarter-Romulan crewman in TNG who was apparently considered inherently suspicious by virtue of that fact, so it's not like bigotry has magically disappeared in the Federation.
24th Aug '17 3:48:29 AM jmparker78
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** Then there are Yeomans Burke and Samnel from ''The Undiscovered Country''.


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** This may come as a shock to modern Trekkers who have spent most of their lives hearing how progressive Gene Roddenberry was, but yes, he wrote that episode's story himself, specifically to demonstrate why women should not be placed in charge of men. There's a lot of myth about Roddenberry the man, and what motivated him. While it's true that he was a progressive as far as race and sexuality (free love and all forms of it), he was not an advocate for gender equality at all. Much of what we've been told about him was an attempt by those close to him to protect his legacy after his death, such as his widow, Majel Barrett. Now that Barrett has passed on herself, a bit of truth is coming out. According to those who worked with him, Roddenberry didn't trust women, and believed men to be naturally superior in most, if not all, respects. He was also a raging womanizer, who apparently wasn't above making repeated unwanted advances upon women who'd made it clear they weren't interested (both while married to his first wife and later, after he'd married Barrett), and despite the story that he fought to have a woman be second-in-command of the ''Enterprise'', what this really was was a case of nepotism. Barrett, who was his mistress at the time (he had yet to divorce his first wife, but his affair with Barrett was an open secret), demanded a role on the show, and he wrote her in to please her. NBC brass didn't like the idea of him giving his side piece a job, and told him to cast someone else. Instead, he eliminated the role and blamed it, years later, on studio heads telling him a woman in a command role isn't believable. In later life, especially after he was KickedUpstairs, his sexism calmed itself somewhat, enough that he allowed men and women to be portrayed as equals in the film and 80's television era (something he notably did ''not'' do with the original series). In many ways, Roddenberry was indeed a product of his time. That being said, Arthur H. Singer, who wrote the screenplay based on Roddenberry's story for this episode, appears to have attempted to soften the impact of the intended message by making it clear that Janice Lester was as crazy as a shithouse rat, and that it was her temperament that had held her back, not her gender. Note that despite Janice repeatedly stating that women are not allowed to command starships, no character in the episode openly agrees with her, and in fact note other reasons for her lack of command. Not that they openly disagree, either, but they're probably smart enough not to tell a delusional person that she's delusional. That usually escalates the issue, rather than easing it.
23rd Aug '17 12:17:24 PM jmparker78
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** Something else to think about, when the ''Trek'' novel ''Killing Time'' was published, Pocket neglected to remove a heaping amount of K/S that Paramount had told them to edit out. A copy made its way into Roddenberry's hands and he was ''furious''. It wasn't the idea of homosexuality that he was angry with. It was the suggestion that ''Kirk and Spock'' were gay for each other. He was so pissed a revised edition was required, and this was also what put the nail in the coffin when it came to whether or not the novels could be considered part of the canon. Not sure how that jibes with the idea that he initially wanted to make them in love but wasn't allowed to. Also, that footnote referred to above has Kirk saying that while he's not offended by the suggestion that he and Spock were lovers, he simply is not attracted to men in that fashion.
8th Aug '17 12:31:15 AM thatsnumberwang
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** As an aside, I find this concept of ''modification'' to actually be one of the more realistic examples of time travel in fiction, as in real life, people even a couple of hundred years ago would have completely different immunities, resistances and tolerances to period food and drink. They say that you shouldn't drink the water in a foreign country, imagine drinking the water in a different time. It may even be adding various antibodies to the body, as otherwise who would go back to a time before antibiotics?
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