History Headscratchers / StarTrekIITheWrathOfKhan

10th Feb '17 9:19:30 AM cdrood
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[[folder: Mission Briefing]]
* So Kirk informs Starfleet about a weird message from Carol Marcus regarding someone taking Genesis. He informs Starfleet and apparently they immediately dispatched the ''Enterprise''. First, wouldn't the first step be to try and contact ''Reliant'' since that's the ship attached to the project to see if they know anything? Second, why do they act surprised and seeing ''Reliant'' at all? Were they not informed that the ship was attached to the Genesis Project? Wouldn't the fact that Starfleet had been unable to contact ''Reliant'' have been relayed to Kirk?
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10th Feb '17 8:57:02 AM cdrood
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** The concept of "burial in space" obviously comes from the tradition of "burial at sea", which has certain practicalities. Life on sailiy vessels was extremely dangerous for a variety of reasons and often voyages would take months. You just couldn't keep dead bodies lying around. Life in space has similar issues. Resources and space would be at a premium and transferring bodies from the far reaches of space back to their home planet would be a waste of valuable resources. In this case it's mitigated since the Enterprise is not on a deep space exploration mission and would be returning to Earth at the end of the mission no matter what. However, they weren't expecting combat so the facilities to maintain that many bodies on a trip farther out that expected might be another reason.
10th Feb '17 8:45:14 AM cdrood
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*** It's one of those things that could have been easily dealt with if anyone bothered to think of it in the writing process. Just replace Ceti Alpha VI to Ceti Alpha IV in the script. Yes the distances between planets in the solar system is big to us. That's not the case in Star Trek where it's literally a short trip and quick scan. Also the idea that Ceti Alpha V actually being roughly where Ceti Alpha VI should be is ludicrous. Khan mentioned the orbit shifted slightly, not moved to where another planet had a stable orbit. Nothing would have survived that big of a shift.
7th Feb '17 10:57:49 AM trumpetmarietta
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[[folder: Where was the Botany Bay headed anyway?]]
* Khan seems to have a tremendous persecution complex in that he feels that everything bad that has happened to him is somehow Kirk's fault. But Khan and his fellow Augments lost the Eugenics Wars and fled Earth in the ''S.S. Botany Bay'', a sleeper ship designed for ''interplanetary'' travel which they had instead taken off into inter''stellar'' space to escape punishment for their war crimes back on Earth. The ship does not seem to have been headed to any particular destination, and during the three centuries it was coasting along through space a dozen of the stasis chambers had already failed, killing the Augments inside.

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[[folder: Where was the Botany Bay ''Botany Bay'' headed anyway?]]
* Khan seems to have a tremendous persecution complex in that he feels that everything bad that has happened to him is somehow Kirk's fault. But Khan and his fellow Augments lost the Eugenics Wars and fled Earth in the ''S.S.S. Botany ''Botany Bay'', a sleeper ship designed for ''interplanetary'' travel which they had instead taken off into inter''stellar'' space to escape punishment for their war crimes back on Earth. The ship does not seem to have been headed to any particular destination, and during the three centuries it was coasting along through space a dozen of the stasis chambers had already failed, killing the Augments inside.
7th Feb '17 10:57:08 AM trumpetmarietta
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*** Just having re-watched the [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWnTY7OVU8w scene in question]] and Kirk does order a defensive posture -he calls for a general alert and has "defense screens" energized (we even have a spiffy graphic showing that something is reinforcing the hull compartments)- even before the Reliant lies about the coils. There is no indication at that point the Reliant is intending to attack, but Kirk ''is'' already taking precautions and having Spock scan the ship for explanations. Then immediately before attack Khan raises shields and locks phasers, at which point Kirk orders exactly the same. In hindsight it is a miscalculation, but his actions were a judgement call based on available evidence and it wasn't as unreasonable as is made out. He's not sitting around doing nothing, he is taking a defensive posture and looking for explanations.

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*** Just having re-watched the [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWnTY7OVU8w scene in question]] and Kirk does order a defensive posture -he calls for a general alert and has "defense screens" energized (we even have a spiffy graphic showing that something is reinforcing the hull compartments)- even before the Reliant ''Reliant'' lies about the coils. There is no indication at that point the Reliant ''Reliant'' is intending to attack, but Kirk ''is'' already taking precautions and having Spock scan the ship for explanations. Then immediately before attack Khan raises shields and locks phasers, at which point Kirk orders exactly the same. In hindsight it is a miscalculation, but his actions were a judgement call based on available evidence and it wasn't as unreasonable as is made out. He's not sitting around doing nothing, he is taking a defensive posture and looking for explanations.



** On that note, what was ''Khan'' thinking? It's repeatedly pointed out that the Reliant is a glorified science vessel, a light cruiser, while the Enterprise is a ship of the line which could smash it without breaking sweat if Kirk had raised shields. So what ''was'' Khan's plan? Call up and hope Kirk doesn't notice his old crewman acting like a robot? Open fire and make like a bug on a windscreen? Sit there and let Kirk get suspicious? C'mon, Khan, you're meant to be a super-genius!

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** On that note, what was ''Khan'' thinking? It's repeatedly pointed out that the Reliant ''Reliant'' is a glorified science vessel, a light cruiser, while the Enterprise ''Enterprise'' is a ship of the line which could smash it without breaking sweat if Kirk had raised shields. So what ''was'' Khan's plan? Call up and hope Kirk doesn't notice his old crewman acting like a robot? Open fire and make like a bug on a windscreen? Sit there and let Kirk get suspicious? C'mon, Khan, you're meant to be a super-genius!



*** Khan didn't know Starfleet ships could log into other ship's computers and screw with their system; if he had known that (or thought to ask one of his brainwashed slaves) he would have won the day easily. Besides, even ignoring that I think you're overstating the case-- the Reliant seems more than able to hold its own, even when both she and Enterprise are equally damaged and under-manned.

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*** Khan didn't know Starfleet ships could log into other ship's computers and screw with their system; if he had known that (or thought to ask one of his brainwashed slaves) he would have won the day easily. Besides, even ignoring that I think you're overstating the case-- the Reliant ''Reliant'' seems more than able to hold its own, even when both she and Enterprise ''Enterprise'' are equally damaged and under-manned.



** The Reliant is a Miranda class starship. The Memory Alpha article understates the actual abilities and role of the class. Various sources and games clearly show the class rated as a medium cruiser. In a straight fight the Enterprise has the advantage, but Khan could reasonably assume that the element of surprise would make the odds at least even.

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** The Reliant ''Reliant'' is a Miranda class starship. The Memory Alpha article understates the actual abilities and role of the class. Various sources and games clearly show the class rated as a medium cruiser. In a straight fight the Enterprise ''Enterprise'' has the advantage, but Khan could reasonably assume that the element of surprise would make the odds at least even.



*** The USS Reliant seemed to be attached to Regula One, where Genesis was being tested, and due to the nature of the project Starfleet wanted a ship that wouldn't draw attention (like the Constitution class) but could actually defend the project--and based on what we saw in Star Trek III, the Oberth class had no chance of doing that.
*** The real reason we didn't see an Oberth class is the fact that the model hadn't been built yet. Didn't help that ILM allegedly hated the idea of doing a Connie-on-Connie battle because the TMP Enterprise was hard to use--not to mention Nicholas Meyer decided that it would be hard to tell the ships apart.

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*** The USS Reliant ''Reliant'' seemed to be attached to Regula One, where Genesis was being tested, and due to the nature of the project Starfleet wanted a ship that wouldn't draw attention (like the Constitution class) but could actually defend the project--and based on what we saw in Star Trek III, the Oberth class had no chance of doing that.
*** The real reason we didn't see an Oberth class is the fact that the model hadn't been built yet. Didn't help that ILM allegedly hated the idea of doing a Connie-on-Connie battle because the TMP Enterprise ''Enterprise'' was hard to use--not to mention Nicholas Meyer decided that it would be hard to tell the ships apart.



*** Kirk [[BatmanGambit wanted Khan to think he had won]]. And what better way to bait Khan into thinking that then by convincing him that he had caused the nerves-of-steel Captain Kirk to [[FreakOut completely lose his shit?]]. Acting all cool like he had a plan would be the ''worst'' thing Kirk could have done short of just telling Khan that the Enterprise would be back to pick him up in a few hours.

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*** Kirk [[BatmanGambit wanted Khan to think he had won]]. And what better way to bait Khan into thinking that then by convincing him that he had caused the nerves-of-steel Captain Kirk to [[FreakOut completely lose his shit?]]. Acting all cool like he had a plan would be the ''worst'' thing Kirk could have done short of just telling Khan that the Enterprise ''Enterprise'' would be back to pick him up in a few hours.



*** It's still possible that he really was angry and frustrated that Khan would just keep on going killing and most likely intended to go on to finish off the Enterprise. So if anything, he is at least letting out his aggression.

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*** It's still possible that he really was angry and frustrated that Khan would just keep on going killing and most likely intended to go on to finish off the Enterprise.''Enterprise''. So if anything, he is at least letting out his aggression.



** I'd also point out that the evasive maneuver he ''does'' order is a banking turn to starboard, maximizing the area of '' Enterprise's '' hull exposed to the '' Reliant's '' weapons. Kirk virtually guaranteed that even without targeting sensors, Khan would score a hit.

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** I'd also point out that the evasive maneuver he ''does'' order is a banking turn to starboard, maximizing the area of '' Enterprise's ''Enterprise'''s '' hull exposed to the '' Reliant's ''Reliant'''s '' weapons. Kirk virtually guaranteed that even without targeting sensors, Khan would score a hit.



*** I have to disagree. From a character perspective, it makes sense that Spock would want to be "dumped on the nearest rock". First, funeral rites are highly illogical, and I doubt Vulcans are overly concerned about such things. Speculation aside, though, Spock's relationship with his father is strained, to say the least, because Spock struggled to control his emotions his entire life (and Sarek, being a high-ranking Vulcan, didn't need or want a problem child). His relationship with Amanda is better, but is also strained, because of his emotional restraint (and I'd guess there's a healthy dose of shame involved for him, because he loves her). Even if you set that aside, Spock's first devotion was to duty. It would be extremely inconvenient to force Enterprise back to Vulcan to deliver his body, and disrupting the mission in death is the last thing he'd want. YMMV.

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*** I have to disagree. From a character perspective, it makes sense that Spock would want to be "dumped on the nearest rock". First, funeral rites are highly illogical, and I doubt Vulcans are overly concerned about such things. Speculation aside, though, Spock's relationship with his father is strained, to say the least, because Spock struggled to control his emotions his entire life (and Sarek, being a high-ranking Vulcan, didn't need or want a problem child). His relationship with Amanda is better, but is also strained, because of his emotional restraint (and I'd guess there's a healthy dose of shame involved for him, because he loves her). Even if you set that aside, Spock's first devotion was to duty. It would be extremely inconvenient to force Enterprise ''Enterprise'' back to Vulcan to deliver his body, and disrupting the mission in death is the last thing he'd want. YMMV.



** The Ceti Alpha system appears to have only had six planets to begin with; it's the ''only'' plausible explanation for the Reliant crew missing the freaking obvious. Still, it's not so much FridgeLogic as it is the IdiotBall from '''hell'''...

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** The Ceti Alpha system appears to have only had six planets to begin with; it's the ''only'' plausible explanation for the Reliant ''Reliant'' crew missing the freaking obvious. Still, it's not so much FridgeLogic as it is the IdiotBall from '''hell'''...



** Maybe Ceti Alpha isn't a single system, but a cluster of ''stars'' numbered from I to VII, and the Reliant was in wrong star system. Although you'd expect ''someone'' would have noticed a star was missing...

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** Maybe Ceti Alpha isn't a single system, but a cluster of ''stars'' numbered from I to VII, and the Reliant ''Reliant'' was in wrong star system. Although you'd expect ''someone'' would have noticed a star was missing...



*** In the novelization, the crew of the Reliant notice that there are only 19 rather than the 20 planets that there are supposed to be, but chalk it up to inaccurate data. It would still mean that they are going to the 5th planet from the sun, Ceti Alpha V.

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*** In the novelization, the crew of the Reliant ''Reliant'' notice that there are only 19 rather than the 20 planets that there are supposed to be, but chalk it up to inaccurate data. It would still mean that they are going to the 5th planet from the sun, Ceti Alpha V.



*** That's part of the point. Khan's desire for revenge is an irrational obsession, a la ''Moby Dick''. Not only that, but judging how he quotes from ''Moby Dick'' Khan seems to know the book well enough to ''know'' he's acting like Captain Ahab but he's too angry/crazy to care.

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*** That's part of the point. Khan's desire for revenge is an irrational obsession, a la ''Moby Dick''. ''à la'' ''[[Literature/MobyDick Moby-Dick]]''. Not only that, but judging how he quotes from ''Moby Dick'' ''Moby-Dick'' Khan seems to know the book well enough to ''know'' he's acting like Captain Ahab but he's too angry/crazy to care.



* Why was Khan inferred to be unable to account for the third dimension in the Enterprise/Reliant battle? It is not as if there wasn't fighting involving three dimensions in 20th-century naval warfare, especially if you take into account submarines and air strikes.

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* Why was Khan inferred to be unable to account for the third dimension in the Enterprise/Reliant ''Enterprise''/''Reliant'' battle? It is not as if there wasn't fighting involving three dimensions in 20th-century naval warfare, especially if you take into account submarines and air strikes.



*** But he tried to get information about it from Kirk (The stalling to "get" the information was the only thing which saved the Enterprise from being blasted to high-hell after Khan was finished gloating), he even takes time out of trying to kill Kirk in order to go to Regula 1 and steal it from them. So he obviously went out of his way to obtain it.

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*** But he tried to get information about it from Kirk (The stalling to "get" the information was the only thing which saved the Enterprise ''Enterprise'' from being blasted to high-hell after Khan was finished gloating), he even takes time out of trying to kill Kirk in order to go to Regula 1 and steal it from them. So he obviously went out of his way to obtain it.



** In the Original Series episode "Space Seed", Khan is given access to the Enterprise's library files and [[WikiWalk reads a multitude of information]]. Presumably, this includes information on Klingon culture.

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** In the Original Series episode "Space Seed", Khan is given access to the Enterprise's ''Enterprise'''s library files and [[WikiWalk reads a multitude of information]]. Presumably, this includes information on Klingon culture.



* Why would Khan & company accept at face value that they can--without effort--eavesdrop on Enterprise Spock talking to buried alive Kirk?

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* Why would Khan & company accept at face value that they can--without effort--eavesdrop on Enterprise ''Enterprise'' Spock talking to buried alive Kirk?



** Possibly he was planning on destroying the Regula station once Reliant was repaired. Given how linear (for want of a better term) his thought processes tend to be, he just hadn't considered that Starfleet would know about the cavern. He's not exactly working on all thrusters, to borrow a phrase, by this point anyway.

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** Possibly he was planning on destroying the Regula station once Reliant ''Reliant'' was repaired. Given how linear (for want of a better term) his thought processes tend to be, he just hadn't considered that Starfleet would know about the cavern. He's not exactly working on all thrusters, to borrow a phrase, by this point anyway.



** Kirk orders that they try the "emergency channels", which probably includes hailing all communicators. Not that it matters, because Uhura explicitly says they have audio communications, as the excuse of "Chaber's Coil overloading communications" is a voice message. Once they'd spotted the excuse of the Chamber's Coil ''not'' overloading the comms, they already knew something was up. Reliant's silence was part of the reason Kirk ordered Yellow Alert even [[http://youtu.be/LaVIIoRKBlk?t=6s before the Chamber's Coil excuse]]. It wasn't lack of communication that was the issue, it was lack of visual communications and valid explanation for that lack.

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** Kirk orders that they try the "emergency channels", which probably includes hailing all communicators. Not that it matters, because Uhura explicitly says they have audio communications, as the excuse of "Chaber's Coil overloading communications" is a voice message. Once they'd spotted the excuse of the Chamber's Coil ''not'' overloading the comms, they already knew something was up. Reliant's ''Reliant'''s silence was part of the reason Kirk ordered Yellow Alert even [[http://youtu.be/LaVIIoRKBlk?t=6s before the Chamber's Coil excuse]]. It wasn't lack of communication that was the issue, it was lack of visual communications and valid explanation for that lack.



* Scotty had to take the Enterprise's main power source offline because of radiation. However, Kirk tells to Scotty to reenable the warp drive to escape a pending detonation of the genesis device. Spock goes down to engineering to fix the power source, but Dr. [=McCoy=] and Scotty will not let him proceed because of the deadly radiation in the room with the power source. However, the ship is about to be destroyed with all hands unless they get the warp drive working, so logically it is one of those tough times when a commanding officer needs to order a crew member to his death to fix the power source. Furthermore, if Spock feels he should do it and can take the rads better, why is the engineering staff impeding him instead of suiting him up in a radiation suit as fast as they can to allow him an outside chance to survive the repair job?
** Scotty was unconscious when Spock arrived, and [=McCoy=] doesn't know that the ship is doomed. The information that the Enterprise won't be far enough away when Genesis initiates is conveyed by a silent head shake on the bridge. [=McCoy=] isn't being irrational, he just doesn't know the danger, and Spock doesn't have time to explain, as he says when he nerve-pinches the good doctor to get past him.

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* Scotty had to take the Enterprise's ''Enterprise'''s main power source offline because of radiation. However, Kirk tells to Scotty to reenable the warp drive to escape a pending detonation of the genesis device. Spock goes down to engineering to fix the power source, but Dr. [=McCoy=] and Scotty will not let him proceed because of the deadly radiation in the room with the power source. However, the ship is about to be destroyed with all hands unless they get the warp drive working, so logically it is one of those tough times when a commanding officer needs to order a crew member to his death to fix the power source. Furthermore, if Spock feels he should do it and can take the rads better, why is the engineering staff impeding him instead of suiting him up in a radiation suit as fast as they can to allow him an outside chance to survive the repair job?
** Scotty was unconscious when Spock arrived, and [=McCoy=] doesn't know that the ship is doomed. The information that the Enterprise ''Enterprise'' won't be far enough away when Genesis initiates is conveyed by a silent head shake on the bridge. [=McCoy=] isn't being irrational, he just doesn't know the danger, and Spock doesn't have time to explain, as he says when he nerve-pinches the good doctor to get past him.



*** Maximum range of the Genesis device: the entire width of the nebula. Maximum range of the transporter: ''enormously less''. Without the Enterprise's warp drive, beaming it would have been the equivalent of your house being 200 feet away from a detonating nuclear bomb instead of 100 feet, IOW, not really being any safer at all.

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*** Maximum range of the Genesis device: the entire width of the nebula. Maximum range of the transporter: ''enormously less''. Without the Enterprise's ''Enterprise'''s warp drive, beaming it would have been the equivalent of your house being 200 feet away from a detonating nuclear bomb instead of 100 feet, IOW, not really being any safer at all.



*** Ah, but Scotty stayed in the pattern buffer for seventy years based on a technique he had developed, which the Enterprise-D crew were shocked had worked. Keeping something in the transporter buffer wasn't a viable option at the time of TWOK. An in-universe Science Marches On.

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*** Ah, but Scotty stayed in the pattern buffer for seventy years based on a technique he had developed, which the Enterprise-D ''Enterprise''-D crew were shocked had worked. Keeping something in the transporter buffer wasn't a viable option at the time of TWOK. An in-universe Science Marches On.



*** No, he understands, you've got a gap though. Pad-to-pad beaming is much, ''much'' easier than pad-to-point or point-to-point beaming, which is why when a group has to go to another ship, they almost always go down to the transporter room, step onto the pad, and beam to the other ship's pad in their transporter room, rather than just beaming from their bridge to the other ship's bridge or whatever. Aside from protocol, it's much safer and less energy-intensive. So when Kirk's saying they could beam over to the Reliant, he's saying they'd beam from the Enterprise's pad to the Reliant's pad, which might be possible even if all other options aren't. Think of it like networking two computers directly with a cable between them, as opposed to going through a hub or wireless option.

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*** No, he understands, you've got a gap though. Pad-to-pad beaming is much, ''much'' easier than pad-to-point or point-to-point beaming, which is why when a group has to go to another ship, they almost always go down to the transporter room, step onto the pad, and beam to the other ship's pad in their transporter room, rather than just beaming from their bridge to the other ship's bridge or whatever. Aside from protocol, it's much safer and less energy-intensive. So when Kirk's saying they could beam over to the Reliant, ''Reliant'', he's saying they'd beam from the Enterprise's ''Enterprise'''s pad to the Reliant's ''Reliant'''s pad, which might be possible even if all other options aren't. Think of it like networking two computers directly with a cable between them, as opposed to going through a hub or wireless option.



** One thing no troper has mentioned yet: how can they beam the Genesis device off Reliant if they don't know where it was? Sure, ''we'' know that Khan had it taken from the transporter room and put on the bridge so he could have it under his control, but no one on Enterprise would know this; it wasn't on the bridge-to-bridge view screen. They ''might'' have aimed at the center of the energy build-up, if they could detect the ''exact'' center, but by the time the wave reached Enterprise, the entire Reliant was shown.

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** One thing no troper has mentioned yet: how can they beam the Genesis device off Reliant ''Reliant'' if they don't know where it was? Sure, ''we'' know that Khan had it taken from the transporter room and put on the bridge so he could have it under his control, but no one on Enterprise ''Enterprise'' would know this; it wasn't on the bridge-to-bridge view screen. They ''might'' have aimed at the center of the energy build-up, if they could detect the ''exact'' center, but by the time the wave reached Enterprise, ''Enterprise'', the entire Reliant ''Reliant'' was shown.



* When Spock takes over the Reliant via the "command console" and lowers her shields, why doesn't he do something more destructive like order ''Reliant'' to dump all her fuel into space or blow out all her airlocks?

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* When Spock takes over the Reliant ''Reliant'' via the "command console" and lowers her shields, why doesn't he do something more destructive like order ''Reliant'' to dump all her fuel into space or blow out all her airlocks?



** It's entirely possible that they run multiple scenarios involving a ship named Kobayashi Maru. Indeed maybe every 'generic ship' in every simulator scenario has that name. When and where the no-win version pops up would be random, or at the discretion of the instructor. Ignoring the Abrams version, you then simply theorize that they don't tell you it's unwinnable, which explains why Kirk took it three times, and that Kirk himself didn't know it until he reprogrammed it. The Enterprise command staff knows it's unbeatable because they're the instructors. Kirk tells Saavik because he's Kirk, and also because Vulcans already have a handle on the no-win scenario idea.

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** It's entirely possible that they run multiple scenarios involving a ship named Kobayashi Maru. Indeed maybe every 'generic ship' in every simulator scenario has that name. When and where the no-win version pops up would be random, or at the discretion of the instructor. Ignoring the Abrams version, you then simply theorize that they don't tell you it's unwinnable, which explains why Kirk took it three times, and that Kirk himself didn't know it until he reprogrammed it. The Enterprise ''Enterprise'' command staff knows it's unbeatable because they're the instructors. Kirk tells Saavik because he's Kirk, and also because Vulcans already have a handle on the no-win scenario idea.



** Possibly they expected Enterprise just to scout it out and call for back up if they needed to. Even if they thought there was a security risk, they probably thought that any perpetrators would be long gone before Enterprise could even get there, Reliant intercepting and ambushing them would not even be on the list of things they expected to happen.
*** Basically it all boils down to Starfleet just not expecting Enterprise to meet any resistance or have to do anything that happened in this movie.

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** Possibly they expected Enterprise ''Enterprise'' just to scout it out and call for back up if they needed to. Even if they thought there was a security risk, they probably thought that any perpetrators would be long gone before Enterprise ''Enterprise'' could even get there, Reliant ''Reliant'' intercepting and ambushing them would not even be on the list of things they expected to happen.
*** Basically it all boils down to Starfleet just not expecting Enterprise ''Enterprise'' to meet any resistance or have to do anything that happened in this movie.



** Yeah, it kinda looks like it is drawing in matter from the entire sector. Also explains why the Enterprise would need warp power to escape.

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** Yeah, it kinda looks like it is drawing in matter from the entire sector. Also explains why the Enterprise ''Enterprise'' would need warp power to escape.



*** This is implicitly untrue based solely on the plot of the movie. If all they needed was a lifeless planet to test on, they wouldn't have needed Reliant to go find one. Lifeless planets are everywhere. The frustration the Reliant crew shows at the beginning of the movie when their candidate planet shows possible life signs is another strong indicator that it can't be just any planet. Logically they are looking for a lifeless planet that is inside the 'sweet spot' of a solar system where life can be supported if it were introduced artificially. Finding a lifeless planet within life-supporting distance of a star is going to be much harder in the Star Trek universe where life is found all over the place.

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*** This is implicitly untrue based solely on the plot of the movie. If all they needed was a lifeless planet to test on, they wouldn't have needed Reliant ''Reliant'' to go find one. Lifeless planets are everywhere. The frustration the Reliant ''Reliant'' crew shows at the beginning of the movie when their candidate planet shows possible life signs is another strong indicator that it can't be just any planet. Logically they are looking for a lifeless planet that is inside the 'sweet spot' of a solar system where life can be supported if it were introduced artificially. Finding a lifeless planet within life-supporting distance of a star is going to be much harder in the Star Trek universe where life is found all over the place.



*** It also has to be borne in mind that this still in the testing phase of development. When you are still in the testing phase the requirements are always far more stringent than in-vivo usage. Any errors in a testing phase have to be because of a fault in the thing you are testing, and they cannot be even slightly possible because of external factors. So it would have to be sterile (otherwise it is "how do you know that you weren't just amplifying existing life") and it has to be in the Goldilocks zone so that any failure to thrive cannot be because of distance to the star, and it has to be the right mass so that any failure due to gravitational factors are not because of mass present, and it has to receive less than a certain level of radiation, etc and so on. We could probably list at least a couple of hundred really specific factors with even modern scientific knowledge, and imagine how many more science in the [=23rdC=] could come up with or related to how Genesis works. Even with so many planets to choose from, it could still give Reliant a massive headache to find one that ticks all the boxes (and that list of factors probably includes "off the main spacelanes and not near any borders" in order to preserve the secrecy of the project). They probably also want more than one candidate too, so they can pick the 'best' (and, eventually, replicate the experiment).
** Alternatively, the scanners are picking up what may be just 'a speck of pre-animate matter' but which turns out to be Khan and several of his followers and a ship about a quarter the size of the Enterprise. Really, speck?

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*** It also has to be borne in mind that this still in the testing phase of development. When you are still in the testing phase the requirements are always far more stringent than in-vivo usage. Any errors in a testing phase have to be because of a fault in the thing you are testing, and they cannot be even slightly possible because of external factors. So it would have to be sterile (otherwise it is "how do you know that you weren't just amplifying existing life") and it has to be in the Goldilocks zone so that any failure to thrive cannot be because of distance to the star, and it has to be the right mass so that any failure due to gravitational factors are not because of mass present, and it has to receive less than a certain level of radiation, etc and so on. We could probably list at least a couple of hundred really specific factors with even modern scientific knowledge, and imagine how many more science in the [=23rdC=] could come up with or related to how Genesis works. Even with so many planets to choose from, it could still give Reliant ''Reliant'' a massive headache to find one that ticks all the boxes (and that list of factors probably includes "off the main spacelanes and not near any borders" in order to preserve the secrecy of the project). They probably also want more than one candidate too, so they can pick the 'best' (and, eventually, replicate the experiment).
** Alternatively, the scanners are picking up what may be just 'a speck of pre-animate matter' but which turns out to be Khan and several of his followers and a ship about a quarter the size of the Enterprise.''Enterprise''. Really, speck?



** The Genesis wave may be incapable of penetrating shields; the Enterprise had no shields in the Mutara Nebula. And it can't catch ships with a warp drive. And as noted above, starships can devastate planets anyway. Combined with the Protomatter and the unknown cost and complexity of setting it up, and it may just not have been effective enough to override the Federation's ethical objections to using it.

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** The Genesis wave may be incapable of penetrating shields; the Enterprise ''Enterprise'' had no shields in the Mutara Nebula. And it can't catch ships with a warp drive. And as noted above, starships can devastate planets anyway. Combined with the Protomatter and the unknown cost and complexity of setting it up, and it may just not have been effective enough to override the Federation's ethical objections to using it.
24th Dec '16 8:51:24 AM TheMysteriousTroper
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* This beverage has appeared in both Film/StarTrekIITheWrathOfKhan and Film/StarTrekVITheUndiscoveredCountry, which seems to point to it having been an invention of Nick Meyer's (writer/director for both films). I think it was in other films too, but that's really not the point. Is it a hard liquor or a wine? It doesn't look carbonated, so that rules out the possibility of it being an Ale as Earthers would refer to it. Also, the way people drink it varies between these two movies (and they are shown actually ''drinking'' it, as opposed to ''Star Trek V'' or ''Nemesis.'') In ''Star Trek II,'' for example, McCoy pours a third of a tall glass out as a serving for him and Kirk, each. They then proceed to '''sip''' it as though it were a hard liquor. But then, in ''Star Trek VI,'' Kirk is shown downing an entire wine glass (ostensibly a pretty good-sized one) at a sitting. Maybe I'm just not much of a drinker, but I've never seen ''anyone'' down an entire wine glass full of hard liquor in one go without becoming violently ill; i.e., he's drinking it as though it were wine. Which is it, hard liquor or wine? If the two different versions (II and VI's) are of different proofs, why do they look identical in appearance?

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* This beverage has appeared in both Film/StarTrekIITheWrathOfKhan and Film/StarTrekVITheUndiscoveredCountry, which seems to point to it having been an invention of Nick Meyer's (writer/director for both films). I think it was in other films too, but that's really not the point. Is it a hard liquor or a wine? It doesn't look carbonated, so that rules out the possibility of it being an Ale as Earthers would refer to it. Also, the way people drink it varies between these two movies (and they are shown actually ''drinking'' it, as opposed to ''Star Trek V'' or ''Nemesis.'') In ''Star Trek II,'' for example, McCoy [=McCoy=] pours a third of a tall glass out as a serving for him and Kirk, each. They then proceed to '''sip''' it as though it were a hard liquor. But then, in ''Star Trek VI,'' Kirk is shown downing an entire wine glass (ostensibly a pretty good-sized one) at a sitting. Maybe I'm just not much of a drinker, but I've never seen ''anyone'' down an entire wine glass full of hard liquor in one go without becoming violently ill; i.e., he's drinking it as though it were wine. Which is it, hard liquor or wine? If the two different versions (II and VI's) are of different proofs, why do they look identical in appearance?
19th Dec '16 8:33:44 AM thespecialneedsgroup
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*** Except Kirk knew that commander, ''Reliant'' had just lied to him. It only took Spock seconds to confirm that the ship's "chambers coil"-- the component that they claimed was damaged--was working properly. Whoever was in command of ''Reliant'' lied to a Starfleet flag officer, was not responding correctly to ''Enterprise's'' challenges, and was avoiding visual communication. Factor in the frantic, agitated call from Carol Marcus (the leader of the project ''Reliant'' was attached to), the fact that she was inexplicably cut off mid-call, and Kirk not being able to call her back, and it seems like Kirk missed several ''huge'' red flags.

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*** Except Kirk knew that commander, Commander, ''Reliant'' had just lied to him. It only took Spock seconds to confirm that the ship's "chambers coil"-- the component that they claimed was damaged--was working properly. Whoever was in command of ''Reliant'' lied to a Starfleet flag officer, was not responding correctly to ''Enterprise's'' challenges, and was avoiding visual communication. Factor in the frantic, agitated call from Carol Marcus (the leader of the project ''Reliant'' was attached to), the fact that she was inexplicably cut off mid-call, and Kirk not being able to call her back, and it seems like Kirk missed several ''huge'' red flags.
19th Dec '16 8:31:06 AM thespecialneedsgroup
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*** Except Kirk knew that ''Reliant'' had just lied to him. It only took Spock seconds to confirm that the ship's "chambers coil," the component that they claimed was damaged, was working properly. Commander, ''Reliant'' lied to a Starfleet flag officer, was not responding correctly to ''Enterprise's'' challenges, and was avoiding visual communication. Factor in the frantic, agitated call from Carol Marcus (the leader of the project ''Reliant'' was attached to), the fact that she was inexplicably cut off mid-call, and Kirk not being able to call her back, and it seems like Kirk missed several ''huge'' red flags.

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*** Except Kirk knew that commander, ''Reliant'' had just lied to him. It only took Spock seconds to confirm that the ship's "chambers coil," coil"-- the component that they claimed was damaged, was damaged--was working properly. Commander, properly. Whoever was in command of ''Reliant'' lied to a Starfleet flag officer, was not responding correctly to ''Enterprise's'' challenges, and was avoiding visual communication. Factor in the frantic, agitated call from Carol Marcus (the leader of the project ''Reliant'' was attached to), the fact that she was inexplicably cut off mid-call, and Kirk not being able to call her back, and it seems like Kirk missed several ''huge'' red flags.
13th Dec '16 8:49:49 AM costanton11
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*** Just having re-watched the [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWnTY7OVU8w scene in question]] and Kirk does order a defensive posture -he calls for a general alert and has "defense screens" energised (we even have a spiffy graphic showing that something is reinforcing the hull compartments)- even before the Reliant lies about the coils. There is no indication at that point the Reliant is intending to attack, but Kirk ''is'' already taking precautions and having Spock scan the ship for explanations. Then immediately before attack Khan raises shields and locks phasers, at which point Kirk orders exactly the same. In hindsight it is a miscalculation, but his actions were a judgement call based on available evidence and it wasn't as unreasonable as is made out. He's not sitting around doing nothing, he is taking a defensive posture and looking for explanations.

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*** Just having re-watched the [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWnTY7OVU8w scene in question]] and Kirk does order a defensive posture -he calls for a general alert and has "defense screens" energised energized (we even have a spiffy graphic showing that something is reinforcing the hull compartments)- even before the Reliant lies about the coils. There is no indication at that point the Reliant is intending to attack, but Kirk ''is'' already taking precautions and having Spock scan the ship for explanations. Then immediately before attack Khan raises shields and locks phasers, at which point Kirk orders exactly the same. In hindsight it is a miscalculation, but his actions were a judgement call based on available evidence and it wasn't as unreasonable as is made out. He's not sitting around doing nothing, he is taking a defensive posture and looking for explanations.



** Again, nothing says there weren't. However, it would have rather dissipated the emotion of Spock's death to have a montage of standard regulation services before or after it...in other words, RuleOfDrama. And, in the novelisation, it's mentioned that the torpedo-coffin was redirected to land softly instead of burning up (presumably like the others), by Saavik.

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** Again, nothing says there weren't. However, it would have rather dissipated the emotion of Spock's death to have a montage of standard regulation services before or after it...in other words, RuleOfDrama. And, in the novelisation, novelization, it's mentioned that the torpedo-coffin was redirected to land softly instead of burning up (presumably like the others), by Saavik.



*** Then again, it might be FridgeBrilliance. Think about it - compared to chess, checkers favours bold, aggressive play with less of a focus on the long game... like say, hijacking a ship, trying to steal a superweapon just because it's there, and getting some revenge, with no actual long-term goal.

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*** Then again, it might be FridgeBrilliance. Think about it - compared to chess, checkers favours favors bold, aggressive play with less of a focus on the long game... like say, hijacking a ship, trying to steal a superweapon just because it's there, and getting some revenge, with no actual long-term goal.



** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation It's also remotely possible]] that Khan just wanted to use Genesis to create a new homeworld for he and his people. Either way, the man's just a touch emotionally compromised and isn't going about any of it the best way. It does seem that he first became interested in Genesis because Admiral Kirk was in charge of the project.

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** [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation It's also remotely possible]] that Khan just wanted to use Genesis to create a new homeworld home world for he and his people. Either way, the man's just a touch emotionally compromised and isn't going about any of it the best way. It does seem that he first became interested in Genesis because Admiral Kirk was in charge of the project.



* Scotty had to take the Enterprise's main power source offline because of radiation. However, Kirk tells to Scotty to reenable the warp drive to escape a pending detonation of the genesis device. Spock goes down to engineering to fix the power source, but Dr. [=McCoy=] and Scotty will not let him proceed because of the deadly radiation in the room with the power source. However, the ship is about to be destroyed with all hands unless they get the warp drive working, so logically it is one of those tough times when a commanding officer needs to order a crewmember to his death to fix the power source. Furthermore, if Spock feels he should do it and can take the rads better, why is the engineering staff impeding him instead of suiting him up in a radiation suit as fast as they can to allow him an outside chance to survive the repair job?
** Scotty was unconscious when Spock arrived, and [=McCoy=] doesn't know that the ship is doomed. The information that the Enterprise won't be far enough away when Genesis initiates is conveyed by a silent headshake on the bridge. [=McCoy=] isn't being irrational, he just doesn't know the danger, and Spock doesn't have time to explain, as he says when he nerve-pinches the good doctor to get past him.
** In point of fact, Spock had no chance of surviving. Spock's greater radiation tolerance was barely enough to let him live long enough to actually finish the repairs before dropping dead. Of course, if Spock is the only crewmember physically capable of doing the repairs, then you have to send him in, so your objection still applies.

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* Scotty had to take the Enterprise's main power source offline because of radiation. However, Kirk tells to Scotty to reenable the warp drive to escape a pending detonation of the genesis device. Spock goes down to engineering to fix the power source, but Dr. [=McCoy=] and Scotty will not let him proceed because of the deadly radiation in the room with the power source. However, the ship is about to be destroyed with all hands unless they get the warp drive working, so logically it is one of those tough times when a commanding officer needs to order a crewmember crew member to his death to fix the power source. Furthermore, if Spock feels he should do it and can take the rads better, why is the engineering staff impeding him instead of suiting him up in a radiation suit as fast as they can to allow him an outside chance to survive the repair job?
** Scotty was unconscious when Spock arrived, and [=McCoy=] doesn't know that the ship is doomed. The information that the Enterprise won't be far enough away when Genesis initiates is conveyed by a silent headshake head shake on the bridge. [=McCoy=] isn't being irrational, he just doesn't know the danger, and Spock doesn't have time to explain, as he says when he nerve-pinches the good doctor to get past him.
** In point of fact, Spock had no chance of surviving. Spock's greater radiation tolerance was barely enough to let him live long enough to actually finish the repairs before dropping dead. Of course, if Spock is the only crewmember crew member physically capable of doing the repairs, then you have to send him in, so your objection still applies.



*** More like Truth in Television. Electronics is really sensitive to radiation, which is why all electronics in satellites and such has to be specially hardened and lags for decades behind current microprocesor desings. And it got worse over time. On the other hand humans (and other animals) can take a quite large dose of radiation and still carry on for some minutes (or longer). If that's all that's needed...

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*** More like Truth in Television. Electronics is really sensitive to radiation, which is why all electronics in satellites and such has to be specially hardened and lags for decades behind current microprocesor desings.microprocessor designs. And it got worse over time. On the other hand humans (and other animals) can take a quite large dose of radiation and still carry on for some minutes (or longer). If that's all that's needed...



*** If you watch the Director's Cut version of Kirk's inspection, you '''do''' see one suited-up crewmember inside the chamber. Doesn't mean it's normally a permanent station, however.

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*** If you watch the Director's Cut version of Kirk's inspection, you '''do''' see one suited-up crewmember crew member inside the chamber. Doesn't mean it's normally a permanent station, however.



** Actually, I wonder if energy was the reason this ''Enterprise'' couldn't do this. My knowledge of the physics involved is shaky at best, but it seems that a device like Genesis-- a device that could affect an entire star system--would have a massive amount of stored energy. From what we've learned about Starfleet transporters, they work by converting matter to energy, briefly storing that energy, directing that energy towards a target, and finally converting that energy back to matter. This would require an unfathomably huge amount of (among other things) computer memory to pull off. Since Genesis' stored energy would not simply disappear during transport, it seems possible that the heavily damaged ''Enterprise'' simply didn't have the available resources it would need to transport the Genisis Device.

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** Actually, I wonder if energy was the reason this ''Enterprise'' couldn't do this. My knowledge of the physics involved is shaky at best, but it seems that a device like Genesis-- a device that could affect an entire star system--would have a massive amount of stored energy. From what we've learned about Starfleet transporters, they work by converting matter to energy, briefly storing that energy, directing that energy towards a target, and finally converting that energy back to matter. This would require an unfathomably huge amount of (among other things) computer memory to pull off. Since Genesis' stored energy would not simply disappear during transport, it seems possible that the heavily damaged ''Enterprise'' simply didn't have the available resources it would need to transport the Genisis Genesis Device.



** They are in a crippled ship that is in the middle of a nebula that scrambles the sensors so bad they can barely run the viewscreen and are unable to solidly lock weapons. If they can't lock the weapons, then they certainly cannot lock the transporters.

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** They are in a crippled ship that is in the middle of a nebula that scrambles the sensors so bad they can barely run the viewscreen view screen and are unable to solidly lock weapons. If they can't lock the weapons, then they certainly cannot lock the transporters.



** One thing no troper has mentioned yet: how can they beam the Genesis device off Reliant if they don't know where it was? Sure, ''we'' know that Khan had it taken from the transporter room and put on the bridge so he could have it under his control, but no one on Enterprise would know this; it wasn't on the bridge-to-bridge viewscreen. They ''might'' have aimed at the center of the energy build-up, if they could detect the ''exact'' center, but by the time the wave reached Enterprise, the entire Reliant was shown.

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** One thing no troper has mentioned yet: how can they beam the Genesis device off Reliant if they don't know where it was? Sure, ''we'' know that Khan had it taken from the transporter room and put on the bridge so he could have it under his control, but no one on Enterprise would know this; it wasn't on the bridge-to-bridge viewscreen.view screen. They ''might'' have aimed at the center of the energy build-up, if they could detect the ''exact'' center, but by the time the wave reached Enterprise, the entire Reliant was shown.



** In the DVD Commentary Nicholas Meyer acknowledges this problem, but takes a 'Meh, screw it' attitude towards it, finding the needs of the plot more important than the continuity gaff. Walter Koenig, however, suggested that Chekov was aboard ''Enterprise'' during ''Space Seed'', but didn't have a bridge post yet. He also gave a bit of amusing backstory for how the two met: Khan needed to use the bathroom, but had to wait because Chekov was in there, and he was taking his sweet time. Apparently, Khan was still holding a grudge. It reached ThisIsUnforgivable levels when Khan realised that Chekov [[FelonyMisdemeanor expended all the toilet paper too]].

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** In the DVD Commentary Nicholas Meyer acknowledges this problem, but takes a 'Meh, screw it' attitude towards it, finding the needs of the plot more important than the continuity gaff. Walter Koenig, however, suggested that Chekov was aboard ''Enterprise'' during ''Space Seed'', but didn't have a bridge post yet. He also gave a bit of amusing backstory for how the two met: Khan needed to use the bathroom, but had to wait because Chekov was in there, and he was taking his sweet time. Apparently, Khan was still holding a grudge. It reached ThisIsUnforgivable levels when Khan realised realized that Chekov [[FelonyMisdemeanor expended all the toilet paper too]].



*** The Genesis Device seems to be half guesswork and half accident on the part of its own designers. Even ''they'' don't seem to fully comprehend how the damn thing works, they're constantly shocked at their own creation. Considering that it's ''Star Trek'', it's entirely possible some scientist said "Well, I crosswired a bunch of the latest tech together in a configuration that seemed logical to me. But we'll have to turn it on to see what it does."

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*** The Genesis Device seems to be half guesswork and half accident on the part of its own designers. Even ''they'' don't seem to fully comprehend how the damn thing works, they're constantly shocked at their own creation. Considering that it's ''Star Trek'', it's entirely possible some scientist said "Well, I crosswired cross-wired a bunch of the latest tech together in a configuration that seemed logical to me. But we'll have to turn it on to see what it does."



*** This is implicitely untrue based solely on the plot of the movie. If all they needed was a lifeless planet to test on, they wouldn't have needed Reliant to go find one. Lifeless planets are everywhere. The frustration the Reliant crew shows at the beginning of the movie when their candidate planet shows possible life signs is another strong indicator that it can't be just any planet. Logically they are looking for a lifeless planet that is inside the 'sweet spot' of a solar system where life can be supported if it were introduced artificially. Finding a lifeless planet within life-supporting distance of a star is going to be much harder in the Star Trek universe where life is found all over the place.

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*** This is implicitely implicitly untrue based solely on the plot of the movie. If all they needed was a lifeless planet to test on, they wouldn't have needed Reliant to go find one. Lifeless planets are everywhere. The frustration the Reliant crew shows at the beginning of the movie when their candidate planet shows possible life signs is another strong indicator that it can't be just any planet. Logically they are looking for a lifeless planet that is inside the 'sweet spot' of a solar system where life can be supported if it were introduced artificially. Finding a lifeless planet within life-supporting distance of a star is going to be much harder in the Star Trek universe where life is found all over the place.



** Because it isn't. ''Bones'' is horrified by the device's destructive potential, but what the hell does he know about weapons of mass destruction? A Federation starship even in the 2280s could probably wipe out all life on a planet just using photon torpedoes, or setting off some kind of phlebotinum reaction in the atmosphere. Contrary to popular opinion, there is more to creating a usable weapon that simply the ability to make really big explosions. Alternatively, Starfleet may simply have decided that the technology is ''too'' powerful and too ''unstable'' to use in starship combat. It's revealed in ''Star Trek III'' that the device uses Protomatter, a rediculously unstable energy source, to fuel the Genesis Reaction.

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** Because it isn't. ''Bones'' is horrified by the device's destructive potential, but what the hell does he know about weapons of mass destruction? A Federation starship even in the 2280s could probably wipe out all life on a planet just using photon torpedoes, or setting off some kind of phlebotinum reaction in the atmosphere. Contrary to popular opinion, there is more to creating a usable weapon that simply the ability to make really big explosions. Alternatively, Starfleet may simply have decided that the technology is ''too'' powerful and too ''unstable'' to use in starship combat. It's revealed in ''Star Trek III'' that the device uses Protomatter, a rediculously ridiculously unstable energy source, to fuel the Genesis Reaction.



*** ''TOS'' established that at the very least the Constitution-class Federation starships of the 2260s could render a planet uninhabitable (and since Starfleet has bothered to make a General Order specifically to order that -- one that Scotty quickly recognises from memory -- it can be expected it's not just the Connies that can do that). So, indeed, the destructive potential is far from unprecedented.

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*** ''TOS'' established that at the very least the Constitution-class Federation starships of the 2260s could render a planet uninhabitable (and since Starfleet has bothered to make a General Order specifically to order that -- one that Scotty quickly recognises recognizes from memory -- it can be expected it's not just the Connies that can do that). So, indeed, the destructive potential is far from unprecedented.



** Is a device that works on planetary surfaces going to be especially useful in space battles anyway? For all we know it might be impossible to use it against a fleet target because of some interplay of gravitational effects or materials present or something. If so, since the Federation aren't customarily interested in razing inhabited planets (themselves usually covered by orbital defences), it's not actually very useful as a weapon.

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** Is a device that works on planetary surfaces going to be especially useful in space battles anyway? For all we know it might be impossible to use it against a fleet target because of some interplay of gravitational effects or materials present or something. If so, since the Federation aren't customarily interested in razing inhabited planets (themselves usually covered by orbital defences), defenses), it's not actually very useful as a weapon.



* Kirk needs to go through some procedure to show a Star Fleet Captain and a Veteran Medical Officer some classified information that obviously neither of them knew. Earlier, Chekov and Terrell are sickeningly persuaded to tell Khan what they were doing on the planet. Terrell, an officer with an equal rank of Spock, Star ship captain, and his commanding officer, would presumably know nothing about the Genesis project. They were, after all, at the disposal of the scientists, so if they were curious what it was Starfleet had them working on for the scientists, the scientists easily could have (and in the case of David, probably ''would'' have) simply told them that they didn't need to know. If anything, all they would have known was that it created life. This is presumably all that they would have known, since Spock is really only guessing (correctly, as it turns out) what the Genesis Device would do to living people, and since Khan allegedly has a superior intelect, then presumably, he would have made the same unusual leap in logic, presumably. But that still leaves the bizzare nature of how the officers on the ''Reliant'' all knew what was going on. For all we know, they were just given very strange orders like "find a completely lifeless planet."

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* Kirk needs to go through some procedure to show a Star Fleet Captain and a Veteran Medical Officer some classified information that obviously neither of them knew. Earlier, Chekov and Terrell are sickeningly persuaded to tell Khan what they were doing on the planet. Terrell, an officer with an equal rank of Spock, Star ship captain, and his commanding officer, would presumably know nothing about the Genesis project. They were, after all, at the disposal of the scientists, so if they were curious what it was Starfleet had them working on for the scientists, the scientists easily could have (and in the case of David, probably ''would'' have) simply told them that they didn't need to know. If anything, all they would have known was that it created life. This is presumably all that they would have known, since Spock is really only guessing (correctly, as it turns out) what the Genesis Device would do to living people, and since Khan allegedly has a superior intelect, intellect, then presumably, he would have made the same unusual leap in logic, presumably. But that still leaves the bizzare bizarre nature of how the officers on the ''Reliant'' all knew what was going on. For all we know, they were just given very strange orders like "find a completely lifeless planet."
3rd Oct '16 1:47:07 PM Bense
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** By the Next Generation they have automatic force fields that activate to prevent depressurization from a hull breach (for an example, see ''Nemesis''). The shuttle bay clearly has the same sort of tech in the first movie, so it might be present in engineering here. And no, you wouldn't be sucked out through a tiny hole in a ship pressurized at Earth-normal atmosphere. SpaceDoesNotWorkThatWay

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** By the Next Generation time the ''Enterprise-B'' is commissioned in ''Generations'' they have automatic force fields that activate to prevent depressurization from a hull breach (for an example, see ''Nemesis''). The shuttle bay clearly has the same sort of breach, so that tech in the first movie, so it might already be present in engineering here. And no, you wouldn't be sucked out through a tiny hole in a ship pressurized at Earth-normal atmosphere. SpaceDoesNotWorkThatWay
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