History Headscratchers / StarTrekIITheWrathOfKhan

23rd May '18 4:10:28 AM thespecialneedsgroup
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** I should have been clearer. The issue isn't with the turn, so much, as the 30° roll to starboard, which gave ''Reliant'' a bigger target profile than it would have had otherwise. An aircraft banks during a turn for a reason: the roll creates a cushion of air that helps an aircraft to redirect its momentum. Spaceships not only don't have to do this, it's actually wasteful. To enter, and then correct for the movement along it's roll axis, a starship would have to fire RCS thrusters twice for no good reason. In hindsight, it might have been more Sulu's fault than Kirk's, but ''Enterprise'' exposed a way more of her belly to enemy fire than she needed to during the maneuver. In fact, a slight roll to port during the turn might have actually minimized ''Enterprise's'' profile and lowered Khan's odds of scoring a hit.
21st May '18 12:37:45 PM Bense
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** Well, obviously, he didn't actually die in any of those situations - he "tricked" his way out. This time he ends up paying, in the form of Spock dying. People under his command have died, but he's never faced death in the form of "one of his closest friends dying as a result of his decisions." Kirk decided to put Kahn on Ceti Alpha V, Kirk neglected to check on him anytime later, and Kirk failed to be ready when ''Reliant'' started acting suspiciously. Spock's death is his fault in a way he's never faced before because his tricks have always worked before. This time they didn't (until the next movie, anyway).
20th May '18 6:28:46 PM HeroGal2347
Is there an issue? Send a Message


[[folder: Kirk is A Do Nothing Idiot at the End]]
* Kirk is very unKirk like throughout this film, but he's especially dumb at the end. In the Original Series he was always going down to engineering to push Scotty into doing that couldn't be done. When he hears the mains are off in TWOK he sits on the bridge and pretty much accepts death. He doesn't go down to scope out the situation, and, most importantly, he doesn't order anyone into the radiation room to die to save everyone else. Who cares if "no human can tolerate" it? Send in another guy when he dies. And another. And another. If 10 guys equal one Spock then that's still 290 less than 300.

to:

[[folder: Kirk is A Do Nothing Do-Nothing Idiot at the End]]
* Kirk is very unKirk like un-Kirk-like throughout this film, but he's especially dumb at the end. In the Original Series he was always going down to engineering to push Scotty into doing that couldn't be done. When he hears the mains are off in TWOK he sits on the bridge and pretty much accepts death. He doesn't go down to scope out the situation, and, most importantly, he doesn't order anyone into the radiation room to die to save everyone else. Who cares if "no human can tolerate" it? Send in another guy when he dies. And another. And another. If 10 guys equal one Spock then that's still 290 less than 300.


Added DiffLines:

[[folder: Facing Death]]
* At the end, when reflecting on Spock's sacrifice, Kirk notes that he himself has never faced death before; all he's done is trick his way out of it. But in the first season episode "The Squire of Gothos" Kirk uses himself as a distraction to allow the ''Enterprise'' to escape orbit (which would have led to his death [[MortonsFork one way or another]] if [[DeusExMachina Trelane's parents hadn't showed up]]). In "Obsession", he uses himself as bait to trap the cloud creature (admittedly, he had an escape plan, but he could have died had something gone wrong); in "The Immunity Syndrome", he wanted to go on the suicide mission himself to spare Spock and [=McCoy=]. In "The Empath" and "Whom Gods Destroy", he also demonstrated a willingness to die to protect his friends and/or the ship as a whole. How do all of those not count?
[[/folder]]
20th May '18 6:09:18 PM turricaned
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** By all accounts, making the previous movie was enough of a negative experience for cast and crew (to say nothing of Paramount's horror at the way the budget spiralled out of control) that this movie was considered to be a "Last-Chance Saloon" of sorts for ''Star Trek''. Leonard Nimoy himself admitted that he agreed to return mainly as a result of his character being killed off, and that he fully expected this movie to be the last. [[note]]And with a new producer, rookie director, a script just rescued from development hell and a fraction of the previous movie's budget, who could blame him?[[/note]] In making a movie which was relatively painless for the cast and crew, was of a quality which held up with the best of the franchise and (crucially) took almost nine times its budget at the box office, Harve Bennett and Nick Meyer pulled off nothing short of a minor miracle. In short, without this movie there would have been no [[Series/StarTrekTheNextGeneration TNG]].
20th May '18 5:40:06 PM turricaned
Is there an issue? Send a Message


*** In addition, once ''Reliant'' is revealed in the monitor to be approaching head-on it becomes a matter of damage limitation; Kirk's only options are to turn left or right, because a vertical move would expose the saucer section (the bridge) and/or the deflector dish (without which ''Enterprise'' is effectively dead in space) to direct fire. The port side is already damaged (relying on force fields to cover hull breaches) and so it becomes a calculated risk to turn the undamaged starboard side away from fire and trust the fields to hold. Additionally, ''Enterprise's'' design (three phaser banks fore, port and starboard at 90 degree angles under the saucer) means that a turn will provide the quickest opportunity to return fire.

to:

*** In addition, once ''Reliant'' is revealed in the monitor to be approaching head-on it becomes a matter of damage limitation; Kirk's only options are to turn left or right, because a vertical move would expose the upper saucer section (the (including the bridge) and/or the deflector dish (without which ''Enterprise'' is effectively dead in space) to direct fire. The port side is already damaged (relying on force fields to cover hull breaches) and so it becomes a calculated risk to turn the undamaged starboard side away from fire and trust the fields to hold. Additionally, ''Enterprise's'' design (three phaser banks fore, port and starboard at 90 degree angles under the saucer) means that a turn will provide the quickest opportunity to return fire.
20th May '18 5:36:52 PM turricaned
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** On the other hand, ''Enterprise'' had just surprised ''Reliant'' by manoeuvring so as to be aft (aka "on ''Reliant's'' 'six'"), forcing Khan to waste an aft torpedo shot and rely on his less-damaged impulse engines (thus marginally greater speed) to escape. Bearing in mind that neither ship has a working tactical view due to being in the nebula, and - for the same reason - both ships' visual capacity and sensors are hugely compromised, it might be fair to point out that ''Reliant'' was exceptionally lucky to have been able to pull a 180 [[note]]under manual control, while accelerating(!)[[/note]] and find ''Enterprise'' dead ahead. Nicholas Meyer has said many times that the nebula battle was directly inspired by reading about submarine combat, and in that sense Kirk's tactics - holding course towards the last-known position and direction of your opponent when you have the advantage [[note]]and - crucially - are unable to run[[/note]] - are correct.
*** In addition, once ''Reliant'' is revealed in the monitor to be approaching head-on it becomes a matter of damage limitation; Kirk's only options are to turn left or right, because a vertical move would expose the saucer section (the bridge) and/or the deflector dish (without which ''Enterprise'' is effectively dead in space) to direct fire. The port side is already damaged (relying on force fields to cover hull breaches) and so it becomes a calculated risk to turn the undamaged starboard side away from fire and trust the fields to hold. Additionally, ''Enterprise's'' design (three phaser banks fore, port and starboard at 90 degree angles under the saucer) means that a turn will provide the quickest opportunity to return fire.
20th May '18 4:39:22 PM turricaned
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

**** According to the novelization, Khan *did* use Ceti eels on ''Reliant's'' Engineering crew, however it would appear that he only asked questions that related directly to his own strategy and plan (e.g. "What can we tell Kirk's ship to explain away why we're not talking?")


Added DiffLines:

*** Kirk's chagrin (and his issuance of a standing order to Saavik to continue reminding him of the regulations) after the immediate danger has passed implies that General Order 12 demands a stronger defensive posture than he ordered.


Added DiffLines:

** Both this movie and [[Film/StarTrekTheMotionPicture it's prequel]] involve the same early plot point, namely having a promoted (and thus usually desk-bound) Admiral Kirk commandeering ''Enterprise'' in response to an emergency. In the first movie, he justifies doing so to her new Captain (Decker) by invoking his greater experience - but it quickly becomes apparent that Kirk's technical knowledge is behind the times, and it takes Decker's intervention to save the ship when Kirk pushes too hard too soon. Later on, Kirk's experience with the non-technical aspects of command does pay off when he takes a non-aggressive approach towards V'Ger over Decker's objections. [[note]]In Decker's defence, V'Ger's probe had just vapourized his former lover and, as if to rub salt in that wound, returned as a nanomachine-based clone which retained her memories...[[/note]] This time round, Kirk's experience (it being fair to assume that in approximately 30 years of spacefaring, he'd probably had more than a few encounters with approaching Federation ships which turned out to have a benign explanation) works against him, with catastrophic results. Given the confidence with which he assumed command (albeit with Spock and Bones having urged him to find a way back to a starship command), it's the realisation that his command experience seems to have made him negligent [[note]]and that 'negligence' (as he sees it) has resulted in the death and maiming of many cadets who were supposed to be on a harmless training cruise[[/note]] which has him hovering near his own HeroicBSOD for the next acts of the story.
*** And yes, in a reversal of the previous movie's setup, Kirk exploits his technical know-how to get out of the peril in which his leadership mistake has placed the ship. He doesn't derive any comfort from this, however.
3rd May '18 7:45:00 PM PeachLover94
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Wait, so the entire reason this all happened is because Chekov thought he was beaming down to Ceti Alpha VI but got a faceful of KHAN instead and wasn't on guard for it. But... if Ceti Alpha V's ecosystem was messed up by CA ''VI'' exploding, why did the entire crew of the ''Reliant'' think that the planet was the ''sixth''? Shouldn't that only mess up the count from the "seventh" planet on? Couldn't anyone count the planets from the star and notice one was missing and one was not as it should be according to the very star charts Kirk filed? PlotHole! But this movie is so good, [[MST3KMantrayou shouldn't care]].

to:

* Wait, so the entire reason this all happened is because Chekov thought he was beaming down to Ceti Alpha VI but got a faceful of KHAN instead and wasn't on guard for it. But... if Ceti Alpha V's ecosystem was messed up by CA ''VI'' exploding, why did the entire crew of the ''Reliant'' think that the planet was the ''sixth''? Shouldn't that only mess up the count from the "seventh" planet on? Couldn't anyone count the planets from the star and notice one was missing and one was not as it should be according to the very star charts Kirk filed? PlotHole! But this movie is so good, [[MST3KMantrayou [[MST3KMantra you shouldn't care]].
3rd May '18 7:38:59 PM PeachLover94
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** In the presumably semi-canon novel ''To Reign In Hell: The Exile of Khan Noonien Singh'' by Greg Cox, Chekov was part of an off-camera [[RedShirt security team]] that led a failed attempt at retaking Main Engineering from Khan and his followers during the events of [[Recap/StarTrekS1E22SpaceSeed Space Seed]]. Khan himself recognized the audacity and bravery of Chekov, even though he was an enemy. Later, as Khan, Lt. Marla McGivers and Khan's followers were sent down to Ceti Alpha V, the very same Chekov led another security team to help set up shop on the planet. That is the closest to canon answer we may ever get for how Khan recognizes Chekov.

to:

** In the presumably semi-canon novel ''To Reign In Hell: The Exile of Khan Noonien Singh'' by Greg Cox, Chekov was part of an off-camera [[RedShirt security team]] that led a failed attempt at retaking Main Engineering from Khan and his followers during the events of [[Recap/StarTrekS1E22SpaceSeed Space Seed]]. Khan himself recognized the audacity and bravery of Chekov, even though he was an enemy. Later, as Khan, Lt. Marla McGivers [=McGivers=] and Khan's followers were sent down to Ceti Alpha V, the very same Chekov led another security team to help set up shop on the planet. That is the closest to canon answer we may ever get for how Khan recognizes Chekov.
12th Apr '18 8:58:44 AM Bense
Is there an issue? Send a Message


*** Kirk's motive appears to be the grudging admiration that Kirk, Scotty, and McCoy show for Kahn when they first realize who he is. Marooning him gives him and his people a chance to channel their ambition in a more positive direction - by building a world instead of conquering one. However, it still seems a mistake to not inform Starfleet at least of what he had done, and the movie seems to show that he didn't do that. ''Reliant'' obviously has no clue what they're getting into when they go to the Ceti Alpha system.

to:

*** Kirk's motive appears to be the grudging admiration that Kirk, Scotty, and McCoy [=McCoy=] show for Kahn when they first realize who he is. Marooning him Kahn gives him and his people a chance to channel their ambition in a more positive direction - by building a world instead of conquering one. However, it still seems a mistake to not inform Starfleet at least of what he had done, and the movie seems to show that he didn't do that. ''Reliant'' obviously has no clue what they're getting into when they go to the Ceti Alpha system.
This list shows the last 10 events of 377. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.StarTrekIITheWrathOfKhan