History Headscratchers / StarTrekFirstContact

26th Apr '16 12:36:49 PM Bense
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[[folder:Timey Whimey Ball]]

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[[folder:Timey Whimey Wimey Ball]]
26th Apr '16 9:47:03 AM Bense
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[[folder:Wyoming warp research laboratory]]

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[[folder:Wyoming [[folder:Montana warp research laboratory]]
26th Apr '16 9:44:11 AM Bense
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[[foldercontrol]]

[[folder:Ask the Vulcans for help]]




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[[folder:That was our only deflector dish...]]




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[[folder:Timey Whimey Ball]]




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[[folder:Leave no tech behind]]




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[[folder:No glass. Good thing our power systems are totally reliable]]




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[[folder:Where did the skin come from? Also...eww]]




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[[folder:Worf a hacker?]]




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[[folder:Holo-Tommy gun]]




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[[folder:Wyoming warp research laboratory]]




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[[folder:More time-travel weirdness]]




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[[folder:Okay, we're in space. How do we get back now?]]




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[[folder:They have a Queen now?]]




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* FridgeLogic: Why doesn't Data ever think that the Borg queen is nothing more than the Collective expressing itself through a single, specially designed drone instead of the disembodied mechanical voice we saw in previous TNG episodes? This is the most logical conclusion to draw given the first part of their conversation: "Do you control the Borg Collective?" "You imply a disparity where none exists; I ''am'' the Collective." Even if it would later turn out to be incorrect, it's the best guess with the information available. Functionally, it's no different than the aforementioned disembodied voice except the form allows it to express more personality, and it adds a very interesting layer of character to the Borg if the Collective is an exotic, ages-old FemmeFatale able to handle personal interaction when it suits its needs, as well as being capable of seduction and subtlety just as much as being capable of invading other races and maintaining the Borg as a whole.
** Just because we don't ''see'' Data ask the queen "Are you an avatar of the Collective?" or something similar, it doesn't mean the thought never occurred to him offscreen.
** Actually I consider the Borg Queen to be fridge stupidity. As most critics point out a 'queen', and how she acted seemed to contradict the earlier established notion of a single collective hive mind right. Well, 'Best of Both Worlds' also clearly established the precedent that the hive mind does choose a single representative to act as the voice of the Borg to deal with specific situations, Locutus of Borg for example. So when they wanted to assimilate Data, and do it by seduction of the flesh the precedence was already established that they didn't need a "queen" the Collective could have just appointed a female avatar to speak to Data, and later Picard, on their behalf. In fact what I think would have been an interesteing interpretation is this...they assimilate Picard and immediately change him into a drone with a distinct, individual personality named Locutus. Well, what if there are actual personalities uploaded into the Borg Collective, perhaps the personalities of the original Borg which download into specific drones when needed, the 'queen', instead being 'the queen' was just a another personality that downloaded into another drone body when needed. Perhaps Locutus and the Queen are the only distinct personalities within the Collective, perhaps there are many personalities within the Collective, perhaps they are ONLY the personalities of the 'original' Borg, or assimilated personalities that become true believers in the Borg way of life and hence try to convince others to join.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Puny Earthlings need Vulcan help]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:We're escaping the Borg, so let's stop and change clothes!]]




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[[folder:Why Earth?]]




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* Something that's always slightly bothered me: when we glimpse the Borgified 24th century Earth, Picard asks for life signs and Data reports "approximately nine billion... All Borg." Let's ignore the fact that in "Q Who" Borg do not admit life signs, because the show did immediately afterwards. What are the nine billion of them doing down there? Don't they have anything better to do, like to assimilate the rest of the galaxy? Planets attacked by the Borg we have seen in the past (like Jouret IV) just get their cities scooped off into space; the Borg don't decide to park their asses down there and claim the real estate, they just grab the swag and move on. One can think of reasons why they might be there (strip-mining the planet, maybe?), and it makes a nice, menacing moment, but bugs me because it illustrates the extent to which this film departs from the original conception of the Borg and what made them a unique and different foe: they're supposed to be a Collective, networked and decentralized, lacking any home base or leader you can attack or reason with.
** Probably because Earth became the new "nexus" of the Borg collective starting in the 22nd century. Just like they had a super large "fort" in the Delta Quadrant as seen in Voyager, Earth became their new base of operations. It can be assumed they assimilated the ENTIRE Alpha Quadrant, using 22nd Century earth as a stepping stone. 22nd century Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons and Romulans would have had no chance against 24th century Borg. Earth is probably where unassigned drones are kept, hence the 9 billion+ population.
*** That is probably indeed what they intended (and I dislike the "Borg City" of Voyager for the same reason).
*** I like to imagine that Borgafied Earth's lack of water and toxic atmosphere were the result of a cartoon-super-villain plot to turn Earth's oceans into a colossal wet cell battery that went ''really'' wrong somehow.
** They can be networked and decentralized and still occupy planets, it's just that they don't ascribe sentimental value to them and use them as purely functional real estate. Species 8472 was blowing up Borg planets in the Delta Quadrant so they must be inhabited and of some value for them to be a target. It would be more efficient to have, say, a nanoprobe factory on a planet than make it a large warp-capable ship.
** The Borg ''did'' move on. Nine billion? Think for a moment how densely packed together Borg drones live. Nine billion is ''empty''. They could fit that number in Manhattan.
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[[folder:Deck counting]]




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[[folder:Not with the safety on you won't]]




* FridgeLogic: Why doesn't Data ever think that the Borg queen is nothing more than the Collective expressing itself through a single, specially designed drone instead of the disembodied mechanical voice we saw in previous TNG episodes? This is the most logical conclusion to draw given the first part of their conversation: "Do you control the Borg Collective?" "You imply a disparity where none exists; I ''am'' the Collective." Even if it would later turn out to be incorrect, it's the best guess with the information available. Functionally, it's no different than the aforementioned disembodied voice except the form allows it to express more personality, and it adds a very interesting layer of character to the Borg if the Collective is an exotic, ages-old FemmeFatale able to handle personal interaction when it suits its needs, as well as being capable of seduction and subtlety just as much as being capable of invading other races and maintaining the Borg as a whole.
** Just because we don't ''see'' Data ask the queen "Are you an avatar of the Collective?" or something similar, it doesn't mean the thought never occurred to him offscreen.
** Actually I consider the Borg Queen to be fridge stupidity. As most critics point out a 'queen', and how she acted seemed to contradict the earlier established notion of a single collective hive mind right. Well, 'Best of Both Worlds' also clearly established the precedent that the hive mind does choose a single representative to act as the voice of the Borg to deal with specific situations, Locutus of Borg for example. So when they wanted to assimilate Data, and do it by seduction of the flesh the precedence was already established that they didn't need a "queen" the Collective could have just appointed a female avatar to speak to Data, and later Picard, on their behalf. In fact what I think would have been an interesteing interpretation is this...they assimilate Picard and immediately change him into a drone with a distinct, individual personality named Locutus. Well, what if there are actual personalities uploaded into the Borg Collective, perhaps the personalities of the original Borg which download into specific drones when needed, the 'queen', instead being 'the queen' was just a another personality that downloaded into another drone body when needed. Perhaps Locutus and the Queen are the only distinct personalities within the Collective, perhaps there are many personalities within the Collective, perhaps they are ONLY the personalities of the 'original' Borg, or assimilated personalities that become true believers in the Borg way of life and hence try to convince others to join.

* Something that's always slightly bothered me: when we glimpse the Borgified 24th century Earth, Picard asks for life signs and Data reports "approximately nine billion... All Borg." Let's ignore the fact that in "Q Who" Borg do not admit life signs, because the show did immediately afterwards. What are the nine billion of them doing down there? Don't they have anything better to do, like to assimilate the rest of the galaxy? Planets attacked by the Borg we have seen in the past (like Jouret IV) just get their cities scooped off into space; the Borg don't decide to park their asses down there and claim the real estate, they just grab the swag and move on. One can think of reasons why they might be there (strip-mining the planet, maybe?), and it makes a nice, menacing moment, but bugs me because it illustrates the extent to which this film departs from the original conception of the Borg and what made them a unique and different foe: they're supposed to be a Collective, networked and decentralized, lacking any home base or leader you can attack or reason with.
** Probably because Earth became the new "nexus" of the Borg collective starting in the 22nd century. Just like they had a super large "fort" in the Delta Quadrant as seen in Voyager, Earth became their new base of operations. It can be assumed they assimilated the ENTIRE Alpha Quadrant, using 22nd Century earth as a stepping stone. 22nd century Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons and Romulans would have had no chance against 24th century Borg. Earth is probably where unassigned drones are kept, hence the 9 billion+ population.
*** That is probably indeed what they intended (and I dislike the "Borg City" of Voyager for the same reason).
*** I like to imagine that Borgafied Earth's lack of water and toxic atmosphere were the result of a cartoon-super-villain plot to turn Earth's oceans into a colossal wet cell battery that went ''really'' wrong somehow.
** They can be networked and decentralized and still occupy planets, it's just that they don't ascribe sentimental value to them and use them as purely functional real estate. Species 8472 was blowing up Borg planets in the Delta Quadrant so they must be inhabited and of some value for them to be a target. It would be more efficient to have, say, a nanoprobe factory on a planet than make it a large warp-capable ship.
** The Borg ''did'' move on. Nine billion? Think for a moment how densely packed together Borg drones live. Nine billion is ''empty''. They could fit that number in Manhattan.

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\n* FridgeLogic: Why doesn't Data ever think that the Borg queen is nothing more than the Collective expressing itself through a single, specially designed drone instead [[/folder]]

[[folder:Two
of the disembodied mechanical voice we saw in previous TNG episodes? This is the most logical conclusion to draw given the first part of their conversation: "Do you control the Borg Collective?" "You imply a disparity where none exists; I ''am'' the Collective." Even if it would later turn out to be incorrect, it's the best guess with the information available. Functionally, it's no different than the aforementioned disembodied voice except the form allows it to express more personality, and it adds a very interesting layer of character to the Borg if the Collective is an exotic, ages-old FemmeFatale able to handle personal interaction when it suits its needs, as well as being capable of seduction and subtlety just as much as being capable of invading other races and maintaining the Borg as a whole.
** Just because we don't ''see'' Data ask the queen "Are you an avatar of the Collective?" or something similar, it doesn't mean the thought never occurred to him offscreen.
** Actually I consider the Borg Queen to be fridge stupidity. As most critics point out a 'queen', and how she acted seemed to contradict the earlier established notion of a single collective hive mind right. Well, 'Best of Both Worlds' also clearly established the precedent that the hive mind does choose a single representative to act as the voice of the Borg to deal with specific situations, Locutus of Borg for example. So when they wanted to assimilate Data, and do it by seduction of the flesh the precedence was already established that they didn't need a "queen" the Collective could have just appointed a female avatar to speak to Data, and later Picard, on their behalf. In fact what I think would have been an interesteing interpretation is this...they assimilate Picard and immediately change him into a drone with a distinct, individual personality named Locutus. Well, what if there
our islands are actual personalities uploaded into the Borg Collective, perhaps the personalities of the original Borg which download into specific drones when needed, the 'queen', instead being 'the queen' was just a another personality that downloaded into another drone body when needed. Perhaps Locutus and the Queen are the only distinct personalities within the Collective, perhaps there are many personalities within the Collective, perhaps they are ONLY the personalities of the 'original' Borg, or assimilated personalities that become true believers in the Borg way of life and hence try to convince others to join.

* Something that's always slightly bothered me: when we glimpse the Borgified 24th century Earth, Picard asks for life signs and Data reports "approximately nine billion... All Borg." Let's ignore the fact that in "Q Who" Borg do not admit life signs, because the show did immediately afterwards. What are the nine billion of them doing down there? Don't they have anything better to do, like to assimilate the rest of the galaxy? Planets attacked by the Borg we have seen in the past (like Jouret IV) just get their cities scooped off into space; the Borg don't decide to park their asses down there and claim the real estate, they just grab the swag and move on. One can think of reasons why they might be there (strip-mining the planet, maybe?), and it makes a nice, menacing moment, but bugs me because it illustrates the extent to which this film departs from the original conception of the Borg and what made them a unique and different foe: they're supposed to be a Collective, networked and decentralized, lacking any home base or leader you can attack or reason with.
** Probably because Earth became the new "nexus" of the Borg collective starting in the 22nd century. Just like they had a super large "fort" in the Delta Quadrant as seen in Voyager, Earth became their new base of operations. It can be assumed they assimilated the ENTIRE Alpha Quadrant, using 22nd Century earth as a stepping stone. 22nd century Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons and Romulans would have had no chance against 24th century Borg. Earth is probably where unassigned drones are kept, hence the 9 billion+ population.
*** That is probably indeed what they intended (and I dislike the "Borg City" of Voyager for the same reason).
*** I like to imagine that Borgafied Earth's lack of water and toxic atmosphere were the result of a cartoon-super-villain plot to turn Earth's oceans into a colossal wet cell battery that went ''really'' wrong somehow.
** They can be networked and decentralized and still occupy planets, it's just that they don't ascribe sentimental value to them and use them as purely functional real estate. Species 8472 was blowing up Borg planets in the Delta Quadrant so they must be inhabited and of some value for them to be a target. It would be more efficient to have, say, a nanoprobe factory on a planet than make it a large warp-capable ship.
** The Borg ''did'' move on. Nine billion? Think for a moment how densely packed together Borg drones live. Nine billion is ''empty''. They could fit that number in Manhattan.
missing]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:''Defiant'' to the end]]




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[[folder:Right through their shields]]





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[[folder:Body Temperature]]




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[[folder:Continuity Lockout]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Ignore the main characters, they're not a threat]]




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[[folder:Backwards-compatible Borg?]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Here's a new ship since you crashed the last one]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Worf kills job security]]




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[[folder:Picard sidelined?]]




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[[/folder]]

[[folder:All your Queens in one basket]]




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[[/folder]]
17th Jan '16 4:11:50 PM NewVirginiaCreeper
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*** You forget the numerous times that an inability to beam people through the ship's own shields has been a plot point. And the dialogue makes it clear that that's what's happening. In "Arsenal of Freedom": LAFORGE: "Red Alert! Battle stations! We can't the away team beam up with our shields in place." In "Contagion": WESLEY: "Commander, what about the away team? With the shields up, we can't beam them back." Such incidents make it clear that you can't beam through shields, no way, no how, even if it's Starfleet technology at both ends, even if it's your people that you want to retrieve from a planet below, etc. In "The Wounded" provides a rare exception based justified by the particular configuration of the Phoenix's shields and O'Brien's knowhow and innovation (and notably no talk of "frequency"). If sometimes you can't beam through shields when it drives the narrative but you get to whenever the writers feel like ignoring that rule (as in "Relics" and countless Voyager episodes), that's just plain old bad writing.


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*** You forget the numerous times that an inability to beam people through the ship's own shields has been a plot point. And the dialogue makes it clear that that's what's happening. In "Arsenal of Freedom": LAFORGE: "Red Alert! Battle stations! We can't the away team beam up with our shields in place." In "Contagion": WESLEY: "Commander, what about the away team? With the shields up, we can't beam them back." In "Way of the Warrior," the Defiant is unable to beam over the Detepa Council while its shields are up. Such incidents make it clear that you can't beam through shields, no way, no how, even if it's Starfleet technology at both ends, even if it's your people that you want to retrieve from a planet below, etc. In "The Wounded" provides a rare exception based justified by the particular configuration of the Phoenix's shields and O'Brien's knowhow and innovation (and notably no talk of "frequency"). If sometimes you can't beam through shields when it drives the narrative but you get to whenever the writers feel like ignoring that rule (as in "Relics" and countless Voyager episodes), that's just plain old bad writing.

17th Jan '16 3:07:11 PM NewVirginiaCreeper
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*** You forget the numerous times that an inability to beam people through the ship's own shields has been a plot point. And the dialogue makes it clear that that's what's happening. In "Arsenal of Freedom": LAFORGE: "Red Alert! Battle stations! We can't the away team beam up with our shields in place." In "Contagion": WESLEY: "Commander, what about the away team? With the shields up, we can't beam them back." Such incidents make it clear that you can't beam through shields, no way, no how, even if it's Starfleet technology at both ends, even if it's your people that you want to retrieve from a planet below, etc. In "The Wounded" provides a rare exception based justified by the particular configuration of the Phoenix's shields and O'Brien's knowhow and innovation (and notably no talk of "frequency"). If sometimes you can't beam through shields when it drives the narrative but you get to whenever the writers feel like ignoring that rule (as in "Relics" and countless Voyager episodes), that's just plain old bad writing.

10th Jan '16 9:48:51 PM timemonkey
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** Shields are a problem unless you know their frequency, if you know the frequency it's like they're not there at all (at least that's how modern Federation tech works). The Defiant's shields were down so no problem there and the Enterprise would naturally know their own frequency so there was no issue.




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** The Enterprise is a symbol as much as it is a ship, it's where the best and brightest of Starfleet are stationed. Keeping as much of the image intact is fairly important to the moral of the Federation as anything else.
23rd Dec '15 8:17:13 AM Durison
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Added DiffLines:

* From the same scene with the Defiant mentioned above. What always confused me is this: Star Trek has pretty well established that to use ship-to-ship transporters, you have to lower the shields. Wouldn't that be a bad idea in the middle of a space melee with the Borg?
18th Dec '15 9:14:32 PM nombretomado
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*** [[SfDebris No its true purpose is to allow pissed off cadets to pee on annoying planets.]]

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*** [[SfDebris [[WebSite/SFDebris No its true purpose is to allow pissed off cadets to pee on annoying planets.]]
18th Dec '15 9:14:22 PM nombretomado
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** It wasn't a window, it was a hatch ([[SFDebris for mad officers to piss on sacred landmarks from orbit through if their dogs died]]) that Picard opened. It had a nice chunky door over it. The actual windows are, as you propose, transparent aluminum sections of the hull.

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** It wasn't a window, it was a hatch ([[SFDebris ([[WebSite/SFDebris for mad officers to piss on sacred landmarks from orbit through if their dogs died]]) that Picard opened. It had a nice chunky door over it. The actual windows are, as you propose, transparent aluminum sections of the hull.
15th Dec '15 9:49:54 AM Bense
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to:

** From the Vulcan perspective, all they see is a ship entering warp where there were no ships entering warp before. They investigate, because they see that another race now has the warp drive and will likely soon be in space where Vulcans will encounter them and have to interact with them. They weren't applying a test of "humanity is now evolved enough to join our interstellar society," it was an entirely practical "we see they're going to be out here soon, so let's check out the new neighbors." It's possible that later pro-Prime Directive partisans would argue that Earth in fact hadn't been ready and shouldn't have been contacted solely on the basis of one individual making a technological leap.
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