History Headscratchers / SpecOpsTheLine

14th Aug '16 3:17:14 PM desudesu1998
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** IMO they should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to help Konrad (who he believes to be alive) fight in the 33rd's civil war - in other words, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5, for the sake of killing him? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Compare Delta's situation in Chapter 1 with their situation in the beginning of Chapter 5 (picking up a distress call - but instead of Alpha Patrol, it's Daniels) - the beginning of Chapter 5 is where Delta is in the best position they'll be in for the entire game. Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Even the Radioman points out that Delta has no business saving Daniels. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering his instability, the circumstances of Dubai (Konrad dead and having to [[EnemyMine align himself with the CIA]]), his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. Delta is lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did for such a stupid decision.
*** Also note that by Chapter 7, Lugo says "Gould's vital to our mission" and Adams says "Our mission is to rescue people" - both of them are wrong, since their mission was recon. After Gould dies Lugo says "We got no idea what the fuck we're doin' here", which is an accurate assessment of Delta after trying to save Daniels to the end of the game.

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** IMO if you piece everything together, they should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it.5. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to help Konrad (who he believes to be alive) fight in the 33rd's civil war - in other words, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, goes down: Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in 1st Damned 33rd Soldier of Chapter 5, who you kill for the sake of killing him? him. ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Compare Delta's situation in Chapter 1 with their situation in the beginning of Chapter 5 (picking up a distress call - but instead of Alpha Patrol, it's Daniels) - the beginning of Chapter 5 is where Delta is in the best position they'll be in for the entire game. Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Even the Radioman points out that Delta has no business saving Daniels. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering his instability, the circumstances of Dubai (Konrad dead and having to [[EnemyMine align himself with the CIA]]), his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. Delta is lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did for such a stupid decision.
*** Also note that by in Chapter 7, Lugo says "Gould's vital to our mission" and Adams says "Our mission is to rescue people" - both of them are wrong, since their mission was recon. After Gould dies Lugo says "We got no idea what the fuck we're doin' here", which is an accurate assessment of Delta after trying to save Daniels to the end of the game.
14th Aug '16 3:10:49 PM desudesu1998
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** IMO they should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5, for the sake of killing him? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Compare Delta's situation in Chapter 1 with their situation in the beginning of Chapter 5 (picking up a distress call - but instead of Alpha Patrol, it's Daniels) - the beginning of Chapter 5 is where Delta is in the best position they'll be in for the entire game. Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Even the Radioman points out that Delta has no business saving Daniels. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering his instability, the circumstances of Dubai (Konrad dead and having to [[EnemyMine align himself with the CIA]]), his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. (Delta is lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did.)

to:

** IMO they should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if help Konrad is alive (who he believes to be alive) fight in the 33rd's civil war - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5, for the sake of killing him? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Compare Delta's situation in Chapter 1 with their situation in the beginning of Chapter 5 (picking up a distress call - but instead of Alpha Patrol, it's Daniels) - the beginning of Chapter 5 is where Delta is in the best position they'll be in for the entire game. Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Even the Radioman points out that Delta has no business saving Daniels. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering his instability, the circumstances of Dubai (Konrad dead and having to [[EnemyMine align himself with the CIA]]), his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. (Delta Delta is lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did.)did for such a stupid decision.
14th Aug '16 3:06:39 PM desudesu1998
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** IMO they should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5, for the sake of killing him? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Compare Delta's situation in Chapter 1 with their situation in the beginning of Chapter 5 (picking up a distress call - but instead of the 33rd, it's the CIA). Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Even the Radioman points out that Delta has no business saving Daniels. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering his instability, the circumstances of Dubai (Konrad dead and having to [[EnemyMine align himself with the CIA]]), his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. (Delta is lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did.)

to:

** IMO they should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5, for the sake of killing him? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Compare Delta's situation in Chapter 1 with their situation in the beginning of Chapter 5 (picking up a distress call - but instead of the 33rd, Alpha Patrol, it's Daniels) - the CIA).beginning of Chapter 5 is where Delta is in the best position they'll be in for the entire game. Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Even the Radioman points out that Delta has no business saving Daniels. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering his instability, the circumstances of Dubai (Konrad dead and having to [[EnemyMine align himself with the CIA]]), his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. (Delta is lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did.))
*** Also note that by Chapter 7, Lugo says "Gould's vital to our mission" and Adams says "Our mission is to rescue people" - both of them are wrong, since their mission was recon. After Gould dies Lugo says "We got no idea what the fuck we're doin' here", which is an accurate assessment of Delta after trying to save Daniels to the end of the game.
14th Aug '16 3:01:29 PM desudesu1998
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* On that note, I see the argument that Delta should have called in the evac team after Chapter 1 all the time, but that's basically the same as arguing that Hamlet should have killed Claudius in the 1st act - which could have easily lead to disaster as well (an example would be Othello). At its core this game's plot is a tragedy, which means that the margin of error is the focus of events. The whole game is spent trying to piece together what happened. Sure, in Chapter 1 Delta had confirmed the presence of survivors as their orders stated, but knowing the status of the 33rd is a crucial piece of information to report as well - they were still primarily conducting recon by saving [=McPherson=], and as far as they knew, no one else was going to do that. Couldn't Delta have gotten people from the evac team killed by sending them in prematurely? Where do you think Walker went wrong?
** IMO they should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering the circumstances in Dubai, with Konrad dead and aligning himself with the CIA, his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. (Delta is lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did.)

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* On that note, I see the argument that Delta should have called in the evac team after Chapter 1 all the time, but that's basically the same as arguing that Hamlet should have killed Claudius in the 1st act - which could have easily lead to disaster as well (an example would be Othello). At its core this game's plot is a tragedy, which means that the margin of error is the focus of events. The whole game is spent trying to piece together what happened. happened, but how much of that information was needed? Sure, in Chapter 1 Delta had confirmed the presence of survivors as their orders stated, but knowing the status of the 33rd is a crucial piece of information to report as well - they were still primarily conducting recon by saving [=McPherson=], and as far as they knew, no one else was going to do that. Couldn't Delta have gotten people from the evac team killed by sending them in prematurely? Where do you think Walker went wrong?
** IMO they should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5? 5, for the sake of killing him? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Compare Delta's situation in Chapter 1 with their situation in the beginning of Chapter 5 (picking up a distress call - but instead of the 33rd, it's the CIA). Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Even the Radioman points out that Delta has no business saving Daniels. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering his instability, the circumstances in Dubai, with Konrad of Dubai (Konrad dead and aligning having to [[EnemyMine align himself with the CIA, CIA]]), his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. (Delta is lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did.)
14th Aug '16 2:51:20 PM desudesu1998
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* On that note, I see the argument that Delta should have called in the evac team after Chapter 1 all the time, but that's basically the same as arguing that Hamlet should have killed Claudius in the 1st act - which could have easily lead to disaster as well (an example would be Othello). At its core this game's plot is a tragedy, which usually means the margin of error has to be almost none. Sure, in Chapter 1 Delta had confirmed the presence of survivors as their orders stated, but knowing the status of the 33rd is a crucial piece of information to report as well - they were still primarily conducting recon by saving [=McPherson=], and as far as they knew, no one else was going to do that. They should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it.
** After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering the circumstances in Dubai, his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. (They're lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did.)
** And for anyone wondering, this started as a question (specifically, "Where do you think Walker went wrong?") I basically answered it myself, so I added it as a part of my response to another question, but it didn't really fit... so it ended up as its own section.

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* On that note, I see the argument that Delta should have called in the evac team after Chapter 1 all the time, but that's basically the same as arguing that Hamlet should have killed Claudius in the 1st act - which could have easily lead to disaster as well (an example would be Othello). At its core this game's plot is a tragedy, which usually means that the margin of error has is the focus of events. The whole game is spent trying to be almost none.piece together what happened. Sure, in Chapter 1 Delta had confirmed the presence of survivors as their orders stated, but knowing the status of the 33rd is a crucial piece of information to report as well - they were still primarily conducting recon by saving [=McPherson=], and as far as they knew, no one else was going to do that. They Couldn't Delta have gotten people from the evac team killed by sending them in prematurely? Where do you think Walker went wrong?
** IMO they
should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it.
**
it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering the circumstances in Dubai, with Konrad dead and aligning himself with the CIA, his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. (They're (Delta is lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did.)
** And for anyone wondering, this started as a question (specifically, "Where do you think Walker went wrong?") I basically answered it myself, so I added it as a part of my response to another question, but it didn't really fit... so it ended up as its own section.
)
14th Aug '16 2:21:18 PM desudesu1998
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* Something that confuses me specifically with this wiki, and the internet in general. One of the major elements of the guilt-trip said to be induced on the player is the fact that you are killing American soldiers. Well, what if the player isn't an American? Or isn't massively patriotic? Or doesn't support the US military, to the point where this doesn't feel like so much of a problem? Is this wiki so American-centric that this is assumed to almost unilaterally be the case for any player regardless of their nationality and opinions? Furthermore, we're apparently meant to feel bad for attacking them as they responded "in self defence". If I remember correctly, the first instance of a Delta-33rd confrontation occurs as a result of '''them''' attacking you because they think you're CIA. So it was Delta was acting in self defence! After that point, a mutual hatred developed and both groups had every right to attack/defend against eachother. Also, yes some of the soldiers are humanised. But as TV Tropes itself concedes, nobody in this game is innocent. The 33rd were guilty of war crimes too, even if Delta's use of WP was completely out of line. Let's not forget about the sandboarding, for example. They also didn't have the good sense to leave the doomed, FUBAR city after Konrad killed himself. So should we really feel quite so bad as the main pages suggest for killing not-so-innocent soldiers? The division were effectively rogue after some point, and they probably would have attacked even a larger force which didn't suffer from Walker's developing mental health problems/ jingoism.
** Also, I'd like to add that the only non-named 33rd soldier/officer I felt bad for killing was the one wiped out by WP who croaks ''"why?"''. And even ''he'' would have been one of the guys firing on you if you try to bypass the enforced WP mortar! Yes, the rest are [[PunchClockVillain just doing their job]] with humanising [[EnemyChatter background conversations]] but they fired on me first. When I'm just acting in self defence (even if other tropers interpret Delta's actions in other fashions) you can't really guilt trip me for wanting to put every enemy down and survive.
*** The 33rd wouldn't have had the chance to fire on Walker in the first place if he and Delta hadn't disobeyed orders and attempted to rescue [=McPherson=] on their own. What they should have done was pull back and call for reinforcements when they had the opportunity after Chapter 1. The point being made is that Walker and Delta are directly responsible for making the situation in Dubai worse because of the implicitly selfish choice they made to try and play the hero. The 33rd may be considered {{Asshole Victim}}s, and it's ''possible'' they would've attacked a larger force, but there's no way to know for sure, and even if they did, at least then Walker couldn't be held accountable for it.

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* Something that confuses me specifically with this wiki, and the internet in general. One of the major elements of the guilt-trip said to be induced on the player is the fact that you are killing American soldiers. Well, what if the player isn't an American? Or isn't massively patriotic? Or doesn't support the US military, to the point where this doesn't feel like so much of a problem? Is this wiki so American-centric that this is assumed to almost unilaterally be the case for any player regardless of their nationality and opinions? Furthermore, we're apparently meant to feel bad for attacking them as they responded "in self defence". If I remember correctly, the first instance of a Delta-33rd confrontation occurs as a result of '''them''' attacking you because they think you're CIA. So it was Delta was acting in self defence! After that point, a mutual hatred developed and both groups had every right to attack/defend against eachother. Also, yes some of the soldiers are humanised. But as TV Tropes itself concedes, nobody in this game is innocent. The 33rd were guilty of war crimes too, even if Delta's use of WP was completely out of line. Let's not forget about the sandboarding, for example. They also didn't have the good sense to leave the doomed, FUBAR city after Konrad killed himself. So should we really feel quite so bad as the main pages suggest for killing not-so-innocent soldiers? The division were effectively rogue after some point, and they probably would have attacked even a larger force which didn't suffer from Walker's developing mental health problems/ jingoism.
** Also, I'd like to add that the
jingoism. The only non-named 33rd soldier/officer I felt bad for killing was the one wiped out by WP who croaks ''"why?"''. And even ''he'' would have been one of the guys firing on you if you try to bypass the enforced WP mortar! Yes, the rest are [[PunchClockVillain just doing their job]] with humanising [[EnemyChatter background conversations]] but they fired on me first. When I'm just acting in self defence (even if other tropers interpret Delta's actions in other fashions) you can't really guilt trip me for wanting to put every enemy down and survive.
*** ** The 33rd wouldn't have had the chance to fire on Walker in the first place if he and Delta hadn't disobeyed orders and attempted to rescue [=McPherson=] on their own. What they should have done was pull back and call for reinforcements when they had the opportunity after Chapter 1. The point being made is that Walker and Delta are directly responsible for making the situation in Dubai worse because of the implicitly selfish choice they made to try and play the hero. The 33rd may be considered {{Asshole Victim}}s, and it's ''possible'' they would've attacked a larger force, but there's no way to know for sure, and even if they did, at least then Walker couldn't be held accountable for it.



*** On that note, I see the argument that Delta should have left after Chapter 1 all the time, but that's basically the same as arguing that Hamlet should have killed Claudius in the 1st act - both of those actions could have lead to disaster, just as it did for Othello. Remember, at its core this game's plot is a tragedy. Yes, Delta had confirmed the presence of survivors as their orders stated, but knowing the status of the 33rd is a crucial piece of information to report as well - they were still primarily conducting recon by saving McPherson. They should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but hasn't. Delta is lucky that what happened to Daniels didn't happen to them. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels, for the comparatively meager gain of climbing a few stairs to find Daniels, already dead.
*** I consider it quite likely that they would attack whoever entered the city, as they had clearly made it their own territory. But ok, fine. What about the rest of my points? What if I don't care about shooting (virtual, obviously) US soldiers? Am I still meant to feel guilty because the game (and this wiki) thinks I should?
*** I'm with this dude; the game was just a game. I felt about as much 'guilt' or 'anger' playing this as I do making a sandwich, which is to say none. It's like the whole Areith death scene from Final Fantasy 7; it's a fucking game. The fact that the majority of people, it seems, got so emotionally invested in a game kinda shows that the developers have a huge point: gamers can't distinguish reality from fantasy on an emotional level.

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*** On that note, I see the argument that Delta should have left after Chapter 1 all the time, but that's basically the same as arguing that Hamlet should have killed Claudius in the 1st act - both of those actions could have lead to disaster, just as it did for Othello. Remember, at its core this game's plot is a tragedy. Yes, Delta had confirmed the presence of survivors as their orders stated, but knowing the status of the 33rd is a crucial piece of information to report as well - they were still primarily conducting recon by saving McPherson. They should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but hasn't. Delta is lucky that what happened to Daniels didn't happen to them. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels, for the comparatively meager gain of climbing a few stairs to find Daniels, already dead.
***
** I consider it quite likely that they would attack whoever entered the city, as they had clearly made it their own territory. But ok, fine. What about the rest of my points? What if I don't care about shooting (virtual, obviously) US soldiers? Am I still meant to feel guilty because the game (and this wiki) thinks I should?
*** ** I'm with this dude; the game was just a game. I felt about as much 'guilt' or 'anger' playing this as I do making a sandwich, which is to say none. It's like the whole Areith death scene from Final Fantasy 7; it's a fucking game. The fact that the majority of people, it seems, got so emotionally invested in a game kinda shows that the developers have a huge point: gamers can't distinguish reality from fantasy on an emotional level.



** Not necessarily. The CIA-backed insurgency was shown to be on the ropes before Delta showed up, and they first encounter Riggs when they save him from an ambush. Riggs' plan to destroy the water supply probably wouldn't have had enough manpower or expertise to come to fruition if it hadn't been for them doing most of the work. The 33rd most likely would've been able to restore martial law in Dubai if Delta had never arrived, albeit at great cost, possibly to the point of a PyrrhicVictory.

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** Not necessarily. The CIA-backed insurgency was shown to be on the ropes before Delta showed up, and they first encounter Riggs when they save him from an ambush. Riggs' plan to destroy the water supply probably wouldn't have had enough manpower or expertise to come to fruition if it hadn't been for them doing most of the work. The 33rd most likely would've been able to restore martial law in Dubai if Delta had never arrived, albeit at great cost, possibly to the point of a PyrrhicVictory.PyrrhicVictory.
* On that note, I see the argument that Delta should have called in the evac team after Chapter 1 all the time, but that's basically the same as arguing that Hamlet should have killed Claudius in the 1st act - which could have easily lead to disaster as well (an example would be Othello). At its core this game's plot is a tragedy, which usually means the margin of error has to be almost none. Sure, in Chapter 1 Delta had confirmed the presence of survivors as their orders stated, but knowing the status of the 33rd is a crucial piece of information to report as well - they were still primarily conducting recon by saving [=McPherson=], and as far as they knew, no one else was going to do that. They should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it.
** After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but couldn't - after trying to save Daniels, [[ClosedCircle Delta can't leave Dubai]]. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels; considering the circumstances in Dubai, his downfall beyond that point was only a matter of time. (They're lucky that they didn't get captured and tortured like Daniels did.)
** And for anyone wondering, this started as a question (specifically, "Where do you think Walker went wrong?") I basically answered it myself, so I added it as a part of my response to another question, but it didn't really fit... so it ended up as its own section.
14th Aug '16 1:58:55 PM desudesu1998
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*** Rescuing McPherson wasn't really that selfish. Everyone in Alpha Patrol died, it's not unreasonable to assume that McPherson was going to be killed if Delta did nothing - no one else even knew he was gone. As far as Delta knew at that point, the 33rd were on the up and up and there would be no problems linking up with them for more information. Are you supposed to leave people to die because your allies might *possibly* mistake you for their enemies? The game isn't presenting these people as wrong for wanting to help, but rather as misguided; by "taking on altruistic projects without understanding their own motives for doing so" and exceeding the scope of what they can realistically achieve, without taking a moment to stop and realize it.

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*** Rescuing McPherson [=McPherson=] wasn't really that selfish. Everyone in Alpha Patrol died, it's not unreasonable to assume that McPherson [=McPherson=] was going to be killed if Delta did nothing - no one else even knew he was gone. As far as Delta knew at that point, the 33rd were on the up and up and there would be no problems linking up with them for more information. Are you supposed to leave people to die because your allies might *possibly* mistake you for their enemies? The game isn't presenting these people as wrong for wanting to help, but rather as misguided; by "taking on altruistic projects without understanding their own motives for doing so" and exceeding the scope of what they can realistically achieve, without taking a moment to stop and realize it.
14th Aug '16 1:58:17 PM desudesu1998
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** Maybe that's the point, original poster. One of the major themes of the game is how people can take on altruistic projects but not understand their own motives for doing so, and how this lack of understanding can lead to the degeneration of the original project into folly and tragedy. John Konrad ostensibly led the 33rd into Dubai to organize the evacuation, but some ingame intel suggests his underlying motive was to bolster his reputation after his failures in Afghanistan. Walker had at least three different goals (find and save the 33rd, save the surviving civilians of Dubai, kill Konrad), but the game makes it crystal clear that all these goals were chosen by Walker's need to prove himself a hero. In both cases their desires led both Konrad and Walker to embark on projects they were in no way prepared to successfully carry out, resulting in stopgap measures, overreactions, and death. I view Riggs, Gould, and the rest of the CIA team through a similar lens. They claim their actions were necessary to prevent a general war in the Middle East, but their fundamental goal was to prevent America from looking bad on the world stage. They might have been able to achieve that if they had simply broadcast to the world what happened in Dubai and arranged a relief effort, but they overreacted, assumed the worst at every turn, never conferred with anyone but themselves, and decided the best course of action was to incite the 33rd and the remaining civilians to destroy each other. When that failed, they killed the city. Riggs was far more lucid that either Walker or Konrad, but he was just as delusional about his motives.

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** Maybe that's the point, original poster. One of the major themes of the game is how people can take on altruistic projects but not understand their own motives for doing so, and how this lack of understanding can lead to the degeneration of the original project into folly and tragedy. John Konrad ostensibly led the 33rd into Dubai to organize the evacuation, but some ingame intel suggests his underlying motive was to bolster his reputation after his failures in Afghanistan. Walker had at least three different goals (find and save the 33rd, save the surviving civilians of Dubai, kill Konrad), but the game makes it crystal clear that all these goals were chosen by Walker's need to prove himself a hero. In both cases their desires led both Konrad and Walker to embark on projects they were in no way prepared to successfully carry out, resulting in stopgap measures, overreactions, and death. I view Riggs, Gould, and the rest of the CIA team through a similar lens. They claim their actions were necessary to prevent a general war in the Middle East, but their fundamental goal was to prevent America from looking bad on the world stage. They might have been able to achieve that if they had simply broadcast to the world what happened in Dubai and arranged a relief effort, but they overreacted, assumed the worst at every turn, never conferred with anyone but themselves, and decided the best course of action was to incite the 33rd and the remaining civilians to destroy each other. When that failed, they killed the city. Riggs was far more lucid that than either Walker or Konrad, but he was just as delusional about his motives.


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** Also note that had Walker not chosen to stick around the radio tower and destroy it, the 33rd wouldn't have had the chance to chase them to begin with. He put them all at risk there.


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**** Rescuing McPherson wasn't really that selfish. Everyone in Alpha Patrol died, it's not unreasonable to assume that McPherson was going to be killed if Delta did nothing - no one else even knew he was gone. As far as Delta knew at that point, the 33rd were on the up and up and there would be no problems linking up with them for more information. Are you supposed to leave people to die because your allies might *possibly* mistake you for their enemies? The game isn't presenting these people as wrong for wanting to help, but rather as misguided; by "taking on altruistic projects without understanding their own motives for doing so" and exceeding the scope of what they can realistically achieve, without taking a moment to stop and realize it.
**** On that note, I see the argument that Delta should have left after Chapter 1 all the time, but that's basically the same as arguing that Hamlet should have killed Claudius in the 1st act - both of those actions could have lead to disaster, just as it did for Othello. Remember, at its core this game's plot is a tragedy. Yes, Delta had confirmed the presence of survivors as their orders stated, but knowing the status of the 33rd is a crucial piece of information to report as well - they were still primarily conducting recon by saving McPherson. They should have left at the beginning of Chapter 5 - rescuing Daniels was the real error, and if you piece everything together, the game is pretty clear about it. After discovering that some of the 33rd went rogue, the primary reason Walker pushed further into Dubai is to find out if Konrad is alive - in other words, even if he was, Walker was getting involved with the conflict explicitly for the sake of getting involved in the conflict. (See MeaningfulName for the significance of that.) Remember after the helo went down, Walker is confronted by the first guy you kill in Chapter 5? ("One of your victims. The one who was just followin' orders.") Notice how Daniels and Walker say the same thing? ("We're looking for survivors.") There's even an intel piece in Chapter 4 before things go to shit about how Daniels was supposed to report back to Langley but hasn't. Delta is lucky that what happened to Daniels didn't happen to them. Walker literally falls off of a skyscraper by trying to save Daniels, for the comparatively meager gain of climbing a few stairs to find Daniels, already dead.
21st Jul '16 6:45:04 PM Polokun
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** Not necessarily. The CIA-backed insurgency was shown to be on the ropes before Delta showed up, and they first encounter Riggs when they save him from an ambush. Riggs' plan to destroy the water supply probably wouldn't have had enough manpower or expertise to come to fruition if it hadn't been for them doing most of the work. The 33rd most likely would've been able to restore martial law in Dubai if Delta had never arrived, albeit at great cost, possibly to the point of a PyrrhicVictory.
* Why is this game set in Dubai, Saudi Arabia of all places? Am I the only one who remembers that the jingoistic idiots this game was (rather deceptively) marketed to hate Arabs and Muslims? They fight wars against them! Did all those real civilians who U.S. troops killed on purpose die in vain? Was Saudi Arabia simply wasting tax dollars when it trained the 9/11 hijackers?

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** Not necessarily. The CIA-backed insurgency was shown to be on the ropes before Delta showed up, and they first encounter Riggs when they save him from an ambush. Riggs' plan to destroy the water supply probably wouldn't have had enough manpower or expertise to come to fruition if it hadn't been for them doing most of the work. The 33rd most likely would've been able to restore martial law in Dubai if Delta had never arrived, albeit at great cost, possibly to the point of a PyrrhicVictory.
* Why is this game set in Dubai, Saudi Arabia of all places? Am I the only one who remembers that the jingoistic idiots this game was (rather deceptively) marketed to hate Arabs and Muslims? They fight wars against them! Did all those real civilians who U.S. troops killed on purpose die in vain? Was Saudi Arabia simply wasting tax dollars when it trained the 9/11 hijackers?
PyrrhicVictory.
21st Jul '16 3:14:47 PM Ansongc2000
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*** The is criticizing the player, though not necessarily for all the horrible things it tasks them with (though it does expect you to feel bad for doing them). The lead writer stated he believes people play shooter games to play out their power fantasies, and the purpose of the game is to subvert that fantasy by tricking the player into thinking they'll be the hero of the story, but them showing them they're the villain. And as for the "shut the game off" option, if you don't play the game, the game has nothing to criticize you for. So in the dichotomy presented by the game (you're an insensitive jerkass who kills people for fun, or your not), shutting the game off is a valid choice.

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*** The game is criticizing the player, though not necessarily for all the horrible things it tasks them with (though it does expect you to feel bad for doing them). The lead writer stated he believes people play shooter games to play out their power fantasies, and the purpose of the game is to subvert that fantasy by tricking the player into thinking they'll be the hero of the story, but them showing them they're the villain. And as for the "shut the game off" option, if you don't play the game, the game has nothing to criticize you for. So in the dichotomy presented by the game (you're an insensitive jerkass who kills people for fun, or your not), shutting the game off is a valid choice.


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** It's a better choice because it means Walker, unlike Konrad, is strong enough to face the consequences, both physical and mental, of his actions. When Walker shoots Konrad, he's shooting the part of himself that wants him to shoot himself, effectively in self defense. He's not actually blaming the dead man.
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