History Headscratchers / SpecOpsTheLine

4th Sep '17 9:27:15 PM Peteman
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** One could examine the broader implications of Walker wanting to be a hero by way of reference to the game's brutal deconstruction of AmericaSavesTheDay. All his life, Walker has believed in an idealistic vision of the US as the world's protector - when people in foreign nations are in trouble, America steps in to rescue them. Notably, he was previously deployed in Afghanistan: his combat experience prior to Dubai was as part of a military operation ostensibly meant to overthrow a corrupt, oppressive regime. The events in Dubai force him to revise his position and consider the possibility that American military intervention ''isn't'' always a good thing, and that the Americans aren't always the heroes.

to:

** One could examine the broader implications of Walker wanting to be a hero by way of reference to the game's brutal deconstruction of AmericaSavesTheDay. All his life, Walker has believed in an idealistic vision of the US as the world's protector - when people in foreign nations are in trouble, America steps in to rescue them. Notably, he was previously deployed in Afghanistan: his combat experience prior to Dubai was as part of a military operation ostensibly meant to overthrow a corrupt, oppressive regime. The events in Dubai force him to revise his position and consider the possibility that American military intervention ''isn't'' always a good thing, and that the Americans aren't always the heroes.
16th Jul '17 5:24:50 PM nombretomado
Is there an issue? Send a Message


*** I'd like to point out that even the supposedly jingoistic post-WW2 ''VideoGame/CallOfDuty'' games make a point of reminding the player that what they're doing is morally dubious. [=MW2=] actually got criticized for heavy-handed quotes. In the end, it turned out [[spoiler:that was the game foreshadowing the fact that the main villain is actually a nationalist American general.]] For all that this game is frequently compared to COD, it's really not even close. It's only close to ''common stereotypes'' of what COD is like.

to:

*** I'd like to point out that even the supposedly jingoistic post-WW2 post-[=WW2=] ''VideoGame/CallOfDuty'' games make a point of reminding the player that what they're doing is morally dubious. [=MW2=] actually got criticized for heavy-handed quotes. In the end, it turned out [[spoiler:that was the game foreshadowing the fact that the main villain is actually a nationalist American general.]] For all that this game is frequently compared to COD, it's really not even close. It's only close to ''common stereotypes'' of what COD is like.
2nd Jul '17 11:43:08 PM Robotnik
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** It should be noted that Adams, at least, is almost entirely loyal to Walker; very few people ever mention the fact that launching the White Phosphorous was ''his'' idea, not Walker's. Even when he discovers the bodies of the civilians, his initial reaction is one of simple bewilderment, as opposed to Lugo's horror and Walker's shellshock. He doesn't start to seriously question Walker's authority until after the helicopter crash, shortly before his own death.

1st Jul '17 4:46:33 PM CHLORINEGARGOYLE
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

**** You can still be emotionally invested in fiction and not be a StrawVulcan and still criticize Spec Ops' "you're a Columbine shooter" mentality and its criticism of the games it attacks.


Added DiffLines:

*** Except that in "bad nationalist game" Modern Warfare 2, you wind up fighting ''American soldiers'' and an ''American ultranationalist'', as well as helping the Russians wrestle back control of their country. Plenty of players know vets, or are those themselves - but the way it's presented in the game, bad guy comes after you and won't listen to reason. That's self-defense. No amount of "BUT AMERICANS" is going to help that.
31st May '17 5:54:38 PM Spacer276
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** It's been suggested that like the Deltas, the CIA's initial mission was to look for survivors, though it's hard to say if they went in before or after Konrad's ill-fated evacuation attempt (most likely after as that was the last the outside had heard). They couldn't have been sent in before the 33rd as the battalion was the first response, so they may have been sent after months had passed with no sighting of a refugee trail. With Gould's uncertainty, chances are no one inside the city had seen the good colonel for a good while, which for agents like Gould is reasonable grounds to not automatically assume they're still alive. Considering the nightmare Dubai had become, it was probably a pragmatic choice: Konrad hadn't been seen for a good while but the Radioman and the 33rd certainly made it look like he was still alive, kicking and in control. So it was probably safer to be unsure than to rely on comparatively old intel as a lot can happen to a person in two weeks, especially in a prolonged warzone.

to:

** It's been suggested that like the Deltas, the CIA's initial mission was to look for survivors, survivors though it's hard to say if they went in before or after Konrad's ill-fated evacuation attempt (most attempt, but they would have sent their own teams to investigate the lost contact situation. When it came to the question of Konrad being alive, Gould didn't ''explicitly'' say he didn't know. He was was likely after working off aged intel and as that a CIA operative his instinct was the last the outside had heard). They couldn't have been sent to be skeptical in before the 33rd as the battalion was the first response, so they may have been sent after months had passed with no sighting of a refugee trail. With Gould's uncertainty, chances are no one inside the city had seen the good colonel for a good while, which for agents like Gould is reasonable grounds to not automatically assume they're still alive. Considering the nightmare Dubai had become, case it was probably a pragmatic choice: Konrad hadn't been seen for a good while out of date. Being the Company man that he was, his response to inquiry was "yes, but the Radioman and the 33rd certainly made it look like he was still alive, kicking and in control. So it was probably safer information's not up to be unsure than to rely on comparatively old intel as a lot can happen to a person in two weeks, especially in a prolonged warzone.
date."
27th May '17 12:25:17 PM nombretomado
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Even if the possibility of various nations in the Middle East uniting against the US and the former defeating the latter in a military context is a remote one, I don't believe that that means the CIA nevertheless taking preventative measures to avoid that happening is that implausible. It's by no means the first time in US history that the nation has used the threat of some decidedly unlikely possible negative outcome of events in order to justify some rather morally questionable actions in foreign nations. Think about it: is "we have to kill the survivors of the Dubai sandstorm or else several Middle Eastern nations will band together and declare war on us" ''that'' much more ridiculous a proposition than "[[TheVietnamWar we have to intervene in Vietnam, because if one country falls to communism, then the surrounding countries will do likewise in a kind of domino effect]]"? What's more, the US military killed ''far'' more civilians in Vietnam than the CIA was intending to in Dubai according to [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Civilian_deaths_in_Vietnam_war various estimates]]. All things considered, it doesn't strike the troper as ''that'' far-fetched a clandestine operation.

to:

** Even if the possibility of various nations in the Middle East uniting against the US and the former defeating the latter in a military context is a remote one, I don't believe that that means the CIA nevertheless taking preventative measures to avoid that happening is that implausible. It's by no means the first time in US history that the nation has used the threat of some decidedly unlikely possible negative outcome of events in order to justify some rather morally questionable actions in foreign nations. Think about it: is "we have to kill the survivors of the Dubai sandstorm or else several Middle Eastern nations will band together and declare war on us" ''that'' much more ridiculous a proposition than "[[TheVietnamWar "[[UsefulNotes/TheVietnamWar we have to intervene in Vietnam, because if one country falls to communism, then the surrounding countries will do likewise in a kind of domino effect]]"? What's more, the US military killed ''far'' more civilians in Vietnam than the CIA was intending to in Dubai according to [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Civilian_deaths_in_Vietnam_war various estimates]]. All things considered, it doesn't strike the troper as ''that'' far-fetched a clandestine operation.
18th May '17 7:11:34 PM Spacer276
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** It's been stated that like the Deltas, the CIA's initial mission was to look for survivors, though it's hard to say though if they went in before or after Konrad's ill-fated evacuation attempt. Regarding Gould's uncertainty, chances are no one inside the city had seen the good colonel for a good while. Considering the nightmare Dubai had become, it was probably a pragmatic choice: Konrad hadn't been seen for a good while but the 33rd certainly made it look like he was still alive, kicking and in control. It was probably wiser to be unsure than to live off old intel - a lot can happen to a person in two weeks.

to:

** It's been stated suggested that like the Deltas, the CIA's initial mission was to look for survivors, though it's hard to say though if they went in before or after Konrad's ill-fated evacuation attempt. Regarding attempt (most likely after as that was the last the outside had heard). They couldn't have been sent in before the 33rd as the battalion was the first response, so they may have been sent after months had passed with no sighting of a refugee trail. With Gould's uncertainty, chances are no one inside the city had seen the good colonel for a good while. while, which for agents like Gould is reasonable grounds to not automatically assume they're still alive. Considering the nightmare Dubai had become, it was probably a pragmatic choice: Konrad hadn't been seen for a good while but the Radioman and the 33rd certainly made it look like he was still alive, kicking and in control. It So it was probably wiser safer to be unsure than to live off rely on comparatively old intel - as a lot can happen to a person in two weeks.
weeks, especially in a prolonged warzone.
18th May '17 6:54:21 PM Spacer276
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** It's been stated that like the Deltas, the CIA's initial mission was to look for survivors, though it's hard to say though if they went in before or after Konrad's ill-fated evacuation attempt. Regarding Gould's uncertainty, chances are no one inside the city had seen the good colonel for a good while. Considering the nightmare Dubai had become, it was probably a pragmatic choice: Konrad hadn't been seen for a good while but the 33rd certainly made it look like he was still alive, kicking and in control. It was probably wiser to be unsure than to live off old intel - a lot can happen to a person in two weeks.
10th May '17 7:12:41 PM CHLORINEGARGOYLE
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

**** "DontLikeDontRead" is never ever EVER a valid response for criticism. Art or fiction should be criticized of its faults, regardless of whether or not fans claim you can just do something else. The game, for such a broad and personal statement, ''should'' be criticized if it's going to be considered "high art" or "post-modernist".
14th Mar '17 7:37:00 PM WorgenDeathKnight
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** There's a few possibilities. The first is that one of Konrad's last orders was simply not to come up to his penthouse for any reason, which does skirt the boundaries of 'plausible' a bit since eventually they'd radio up or send a guy up (orders be damned). The second is they simply didn't KNOW he was there at all considering there's zero guards around the penthouse and Adam's last stand can't have caused every single soldier - particularly those guarding their CO - to come running. The third, and perhaps most thematically fitting, is that the 33rd - at least those who find him - were simply in denial about his death, not unlike Walker. This also ties into why they'd not leave any guards around his penthouse, because they don't actually need any.

to:

** There's a few possibilities. The first is that one of Konrad's last orders was simply not to come up to his penthouse for any reason, which does skirt the boundaries of 'plausible' a bit since eventually they'd radio up or send a guy up (orders be damned). The second is they simply didn't KNOW he was there at all considering there's zero guards around the penthouse and Adam's last stand can't have caused every single soldier - particularly those guarding their CO - to come running. The third, and perhaps most thematically fitting, is that the 33rd - at least those who find him - were simply in denial about his death, not unlike Walker. This also ties into why It was easier to pretend they were still following their (living) CO's wishes, rather than admit to themselves that their beloved leader realised he'd fucked up big time and topped himself and they'd not leave any guards around his penthouse, because they don't actually need any.(metaphorically) damned themselves for nothing.
This list shows the last 10 events of 507. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.SpecOpsTheLine