History Headscratchers / Shiki

4th Jan '16 10:42:46 AM FPAForever
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\n***The problem with that is that it begs the question: what, exactly, were the humans supposed to do when they discovered a bunch of bloodsuckers were feeding on them and killing many of them (many people, after all, do NOT rise after death)? To the humans, who had lost a lot of loved ones by this point, this was a completely horrifying prospect, not to mention an utterly unprovoked attack? Why are people blaming them for reacting to defend themselves? The Shiki WEREN'T going to stop, after all.

28th Mar '15 8:45:49 AM citadeloflancaster
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** That's exactly what I said. She invited Tatsumi in, thus the Shiki were allowed to enter the clinic. As such, her rising up was because Shiki were allowed in the clinic due to her invitation. You're missing the point. The question was "What would happen if Shiki weren't allowed in a building, but a body that was due to rise up was left in a building where Shiki weren't invited into?"

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** That's exactly what I said. She invited Tatsumi in, thus the Shiki were allowed to enter the clinic. As such, her rising up was because Shiki were allowed in the clinic due to her invitation. You're missing the point. The question was "What would happen if Shiki weren't allowed in a building, but a body that was due to rise up was left in a building where Shiki weren't invited into?"into?"
***Presumably, she would not have become shiki if she was not put into a place where shiki had been invited into. Either that, or the very act of bringing her "corpse" into the building acts as a general invitation. The real question here is this: how long do such invitations last? Because if they last indefinitely, then that would make burning down the village a very logical measure to take (even if it is taken by somebody who has gone completely bonkers), since you'd need to destroy the village to get rid of all those invitations. You know. Just in case they missed one or two. Since any shiki they missed are hardly likely to reveal themselves, burning down the village would be a logical response.
28th Mar '15 8:39:38 AM citadeloflancaster
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Added DiffLines:

******Actually, many humans feel very strongly that killing animals such as the great apes, elephants, dolphins, whales, and other sentient or semi-sentient beings is wrong, and will often equate the killing of these creatures to being fairly close to killing a human being. And if you want to know for certain what's so different about killing a self-aware being, morally speaking, the answer is that a self-aware being can defend itself, and can find ways to kill you right back. Morality, as the show demonstrates, always takes a back seat to the practicalities of survival. There is no moral barrier to killing man-eating tigers and lions. It is all about survival. Food may happen, but that's irrelevant--we don't kill them for food, we kill them to not get eaten. And I would like to point out that when you meet somebody who has a different cultural intuition as to morality, the only thing that keeps you from trying to force them to conform to your intuition and principles is that very same intuition. You believe it immoral to force others to believe as you do, which is great...but historically, most humans have not agreed. And, again, practicality and survival have driven this decision. Since the whole function of morality is to ensure our survival as a community, this would seem to indicate that forcing a stranger to conform to your sense of morality is indeed a highly moral proposition.
2nd Feb '15 4:43:51 PM e105zeta
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* I don't think they need to kill to survive, because there are a lot of instances where Shiki changed targets. Namely, the "move-away" villagers that were first bitten by experienced Shiki and then passed off to the newly risen. If they had a truly uncontrollable compulsion to kill their targets, this would be nearly impossible but instead it seemed quite common. What I think was actually happening was that Sunako and Tatsumi taught all the new Shiki that they needed to kill their prey and it became a self-fulfilling psychological prophecy. I think they did this because Sunako wanted to transform as many of the villagers as possible, and to do that they all needed to die to obtain the highest yield of new Shiki.
2nd Oct '14 7:43:09 PM spudsabre
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**Tatsumi does ask Natsuno's dad for permission to enter his house after Natsuno returns as a Jinrou.
20th Dec '13 4:28:30 PM louis6578
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** Actually, no. By the time the shiki started entering the clinic, Kyoko was still alive. It was her inviting Tatsumi in that enabled it, not her dying and rising up.

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** Actually, no. By the time the shiki started entering the clinic, Kyoko was still alive. It was her inviting Tatsumi in that enabled it, not her dying and rising up.up.
** That's exactly what I said. She invited Tatsumi in, thus the Shiki were allowed to enter the clinic. As such, her rising up was because Shiki were allowed in the clinic due to her invitation. You're missing the point. The question was "What would happen if Shiki weren't allowed in a building, but a body that was due to rise up was left in a building where Shiki weren't invited into?"
20th Dec '13 1:38:30 PM 2writeis2life
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* What happens if you don't invite a vampire/Shiki inside, but you leave the body of someone who's about to rise in your home? I'm pretty sure the shiki were welcomed into Toshio's home by Toshio's wife by the time she rose, so what would happen if they weren't welcome? Would the person not rise until their corpse was removed from the building?

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* What happens if you don't invite a vampire/Shiki inside, but you leave the body of someone who's about to rise in your home? I'm pretty sure the shiki were welcomed into Toshio's home by Toshio's wife by the time she rose, so what would happen if they weren't welcome? Would the person not rise until their corpse was removed from the building?building?
** Actually, no. By the time the shiki started entering the clinic, Kyoko was still alive. It was her inviting Tatsumi in that enabled it, not her dying and rising up.
29th Jul '13 4:43:33 AM louis6578
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** Isn't this better suited to WMG than to Headscratchers?

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** Isn't this better suited to WMG than to Headscratchers?Headscratchers?

* This one may not be that important, but... do Garlic and Holy Water work against Shiki? We've seen other things used against them like holy symbols, but never holy water or garlic. Natsuno even asked "Do other things work, like Garlic or Holy Water?" But of course Tohru never gave an answer.

* Do holy symbols work against Jinrou? We never see Jinrou slowed down by the weaknesses of standard shiki. For that matter, we never saw the "invitation restriction" used against Natsuno or Tatsumi.

* What happens if you don't invite a vampire/Shiki inside, but you leave the body of someone who's about to rise in your home? I'm pretty sure the shiki were welcomed into Toshio's home by Toshio's wife by the time she rose, so what would happen if they weren't welcome? Would the person not rise until their corpse was removed from the building?
31st Oct '12 3:22:55 PM TVRulezAgain
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*** "It should be clear"? What exactly about sapience means that its possessors cannot be livestock of any sort? Just that they're too clever to be used like that? Seems like a pretty lousy justification from a moral point of view. As for Sunako, she was abandoned by the world. She has her reasons. Does this absolve her of all guilt? No. But the point is, her situation, and thus the situation of the other shiki, is quite understandable. Just casually pronouncing that "she should know better" is rather callous and myopic. Again: this is not to say you have to believe she's right or not a villain. Just that her rationale is understandable; that she's an AntiVillain, not a CompleteMonster.

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*** "It should be clear"? What exactly about sapience means that its possessors cannot be livestock of any sort? Just that they're too clever to be used like that? Seems like a pretty lousy justification from a moral point of view. As for Sunako, she was abandoned by the world. She has her reasons. Does this absolve her of all guilt? No. But the point is, her situation, and thus the situation of the other shiki, is quite understandable. Just casually pronouncing that "she should know better" is rather callous and myopic. Again: this is not to say you have to believe she's right or not a villain. Just that her rationale is understandable; that she's an AntiVillain, not a CompleteMonster.AntiVillain.
14th Jun '12 2:42:39 AM SeptimusHeap
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** On the other hand, one can argue that two major points of the series are firstly that even seeming monsters can and usually do have sympathetic sides (Sunako in a nutshell, and also why we spend the entire first episode focused on Megumi, who will later become one of the most psychotic and dangerous characters, eventually coming full circle with [[YourMileageMayVary what would some people]] (this troper included) think of as quite a sympathetic death for its sheer brutality); and secondly that [[BlackAndGreyMorality one side very rarely has a monopoly on right and morality]]. In which case, presenting the Shiki as awful murderers at first is very necessary precisely because it is to be subverted later on: "Oh, you thought these guys were monsters and the clear villains? Yeah, well, turns out they're not all that bad, and moreover the other side can be monsters as well. Guess it's a CrapsackWorld after all, huh?"


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** On the other hand, one can argue that two major points of the series are firstly that even seeming monsters can and usually do have sympathetic sides (Sunako in a nutshell, and also why we spend the entire first episode focused on Megumi, who will later become one of the most psychotic and dangerous characters, eventually coming full circle with [[YourMileageMayVary what would some people]] people (this troper included) think of as quite a sympathetic death for its sheer brutality); and secondly that [[BlackAndGreyMorality one side very rarely has a monopoly on right and morality]]. In which case, presenting the Shiki as awful murderers at first is very necessary precisely because it is to be subverted later on: "Oh, you thought these guys were monsters and the clear villains? Yeah, well, turns out they're not all that bad, and moreover the other side can be monsters as well. Guess it's a CrapsackWorld after all, huh?"

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