History Headscratchers / PuellaMagiMadokaMagica

16th May '17 5:14:15 PM H.N.Levian
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*** It might cause a universe reset, but it wouldn't necessarily cause the magical girl to become a principle the way Madoka did. Madoka's ascension happened because she wished to erase all the Witches ''with her own hands'' AND ALSO because ''she herself'' was doomed to become a Witch eventurally. So when she became a Witch, there was a irreconcilable (in the current world) logical contradiction: she was becoming a Witch, so she had to disappear, but she had to keep existing to destroy other witches, so she had to survive. Madoka couldn't simultaneously be alive and dead (Schrodinger's Cat can fuck right off), so the world had to start over with her as something entirely removed from mortality - a sentient law rather than something living or dead, and certainly not a human, a magical girl, a witch, or anything that could become any of the three. If the girl Wished Incubators had never existed without specifying who was supposed to enforce that, then it would do one or more of the following: create a logic paradox leading to a universe where there are no Incubators, human history progressed by other means, and all the current magical girls including herself go back to being normal girls who didn't get wishes; a world where there are no Incubators where everyone's still living in caves and there might be changes in which humans still exist and which ones don't; or a world like either of the first two, except that the girl who makes the wish is the only magical girl ever, despite the cause of the contract no longer existing (similarly to how, when Homura rewound time with her wish, she was still a magical girl even though the moment of her contract had technically been undone). The first case is probably the best case scenario, while the last is the worst, because she'll become a Witch eventually and there will ''literally'' be no way to end her. If she wished to erase all the Incubators herself? Since she isn't herself an Incubator, there's no logical paradox there - so probably what you'd get is a magical girl with limited omnipresence (oxymoron, but you get what I mean) killing Incubators, until she becomes quickly becomes a Witch who continues to kill all Incubators while probably also screwing a bunch of other people over with the godlike despair magic she'd have to have. I mean, I ''guess'' you could wish "I want to ensure that Incubators never existed and never come to exist, with my own hands, as the only action I ever take again," which would theoretically protect humanity from your Witch-form, but that doesn't erase the other issue: any Wish that requires a sapient being to exist forever ''without'' causing the kind of logical paradox that Madoka's did would require infinite power, which should theoretically require infinite karma, which would be impossible for anyone, ''even'' Madoka. And you ''would'' have to exist forever to ensure that Incubators as a race don't suddenly arise at some point in the future after initially making your wish.
11th May '17 1:00:42 PM H.N.Levian
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**** Kyuubey's line from episode 11 doesn't refer to anything "becoming" anything from what I remember: checking the transcripts from the episode indicates that it's actually that all of those timelines "converge around" Madoka, and that causes the "threads of fate" from each Madoka to attach to to current one. With "timeline" and "thread of fate" apparently referring to different things, it doesn't sound like it's the literal negated timeline/universe (i.e. energy equivalent to the Big Bang) being sublimated into Madoka's magic each time, but rather, her own original potential from each timeline tying itself to her plus further growth from being the reason the world keeps being recreated and isn't moving forward past the end of the month (though based on the clarification below, it seems like this is your stance as well but in different words, but maybe I'm misreading.)


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**** I guess the reason I'm confused about this answer is this: revival wishes are apparently mostly impossible because the amount of karma necessary. Madoka revived Sayaka in one timeline, which makes sense as it's Madoka, except this was in a timeline where she didn't seem to have gotten especially powerful or especially prone to Witching, which would imply her karmic burden wasn't that intense yet. The counter was that one reset is assumed to be enough to give her enough potential to make a super powerful wish, because one reset is hypothesized to be equal to the whole universe's energy - but *if a wish for revival is supposed to be a karmically powerful wish, and if Madoka already had powerful enough karma to make this wish, then shouldn't her power level reflect that level of karma, even if that karma's still growing?*
3rd May '17 10:58:12 PM H.N.Levian
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*** You're also forgetting how magical girl relationships in this setting work in the first place. Magical girls in general are shady characters who fight for territory, stab each other in the back, and generally have zero reason to risk their lives to protect a city they have no reason to care about from a witch that will probably kill them. But even just discussing magical girls who've been named in the series, let's go down the list of which girls and what cities we have outside the Mitakihara girls. Nagisa's around, but Homura probably doesn't even know she can be saved before becoming Charlotte. There probably weren't any other girls in Kazamino besides Kyouko, because if there were, she'd have driven them out. Oriko might be willing to stop Walpurgis, but Oriko isn't someone Homura can team up with and trust not to kill Madoka out of hand, and her battle power is lacking anyway - she has considerable magical talent, but most of that goes into her precog abilities. Kirika isn't going to fight for Homura without Oriko, so forget that, but even if she did, her magic is essentially a weaker version of Homura's, anyway, so she wouldn't contribute all that much. Yuma might not even always become a magical girl since it happens over the span of Homura's repeated month, especially since the first time we saw her contract it involved Kyouko, but while she'd probably honestly be more useful than Sayaka (younger, but same type of magic and less emotional baggage/ties to Madoka to make her a liability - note how Yuma makes a selfless wish that doesn't turn on her) I still can't see Homura bringing her in. The Pleaides Saints are good girls and apparently live close enough that Mami could stroll through prior to their formation, but given the "rejection" system they were trying to maintain in their own city and everything else they had to do, as well as how close they all were to witching since Juubey wasn't cleaning their gems correctly, they might not have be available to help even if Homura knew to reach out to them.
2nd May '17 9:23:31 PM mariic
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*** This is ''fiction'' we're talking about: whenever something looks like a MillionToOneChance, it will ''always'' be the one.
28th Apr '17 4:24:01 AM PurpleAlert
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** We don't have any way to know how long she was using the hotel room, or if she used it for anything besides having a place to [[spoiler: leave Sayaka's body]], but most hotel cleaning staff aren't required to clean unoccupied rooms every day. There's plenty of ways for her to break in without causing problems, since she's fine with stealing money (or else she wouldn't be able to play in a video arcade), but the simplest, least-assumptions explanation is that she used magic to alter or manipulate whatever locks were between her and the room she wanted. [[spoiler: As to how Sayaka was discovered... Kyouko was deliberately keeping her fresh with magic, and we know that when a magical girl dies, her magic dies with her. Most likely, somebody either somebody checked into the room, or somebody came to investigate the stench.]]
27th Apr '17 5:53:13 AM PurpleAlert
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**** Er, to clarify: Madoka's ultimate potential isn't the product of a hundred individual timelines, she's the product of a hundred ''stacked'' timelines. She takes on each sublimated timeline as potential, including her own increased power from the loop before. The original Madoka has only her potential (+1 boost). The second-timeline Madoka has the original Madoka's potential (+1) in addition to her own (+1) for a total of +2. The third-timeline Madoka has her own potential (+1), second-timeline Madoka's potential (+2), and original Madoka's potential (+1) for a total of +4. Fourth-timeline Madoka has her own (+1), original's (+1), second-timeline's (+2), and third-timeline's (+4) for a total of +8. Fifth-timeline Madoka has her own (+1), original's (+1) second's (+2), third's (+4), and fourth's (+8) for a total of +16, and so on and so on down the line.
27th Apr '17 4:08:52 AM PurpleAlert
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**** It's never directly measured in terms of energy units, but it is specified: the timelines that Homura negates become Madoka's latent potential as a magical girl because she is the reason those timelines no longer exist. Homura's loop is about 30 days, and we see that there is no spacial limit on her powers, if she stops time, time is stopped everywhere, so it's literally 30 days' worth of the universe's energy (although since it's a relatively minimal impact for anywhere but Earth, the rest of the universe might not actually contribute a whole lot to Madoka's potential). She doesn't show exceptional powers in timeline 2 because at that point she only has one timeline attached to her, and her stat growth is exponential every loop. Timeline 2 is the smallest boost she could possibly have, short of having no boost at all.
21st Apr '17 12:15:07 PM H.N.Levian
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** Not necessarily. We have no real grasp of the size of the ''Madoka'' universe, which means a planet or two might be worth the calculated sacrifice in the Incubator's eyes. Furthermore, the only world-eating witch we saw was created by incredibly convoluted circumstances that are unlikely to ever repeat to the degree that they did, and the description for that witch, Kriemhild Gretchn, implies that most of her incarnations are content to stay on Earth even despite her actions on the very last timeline; even Itzli from the PSP game, who travels the galaxies, is never specified to have actually destroyed any of the worlds she's been to.
12th Apr '17 9:17:33 PM mariic
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*If there are witches capable of destroying planets, then wouldn't Kyubey's plan destroy the universe faster than entropy would?
11th Apr '17 11:29:07 PM H.N.Levian
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**** The PSP rendition of the first timeline seems to imply that Madoka really did kill it in a SuicideAttack, though given how the timelines can play out in different ways in the game, this may or may not be canon to the show. Timeline 2 isn't clear one way or another, but in Timeline 3 it seems like the Homura-Madoka combo drove Walpurgis away without killing it; they would be dead already if Walpurgis was still around, given that they were basically sitting ducks, but if they won against it they'd have had a Grief Seed from it (the one Madoka used on Homura can't have been from Walpurgis, or Homura wouldn't have been surprised that she had it.)
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