History Headscratchers / PlanetOfTheApes

13th Aug '17 4:11:36 AM ClintEastwood
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*** No, it is the Statue of Liberty, because it is found close to the buried remains of New York in Beneath the Planet of the Apes.

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*** No, it is the Statue of Liberty, because it is found close to the buried remains of New York in Beneath ''Beneath the Planet of the Apes.Apes''.



* In ''Beneath the Planet of the Apes'' Taylor blows the whole planet up, due at least in part to the apes and the mutated men. But he's only seen a small portion of the planet! How does he know the rest of the world is like the area around what used to be New York City? (Bear in mind I'm bugged by the film; the original book establishes very well that the entire world is a ''planet'' of apes, not just a small area.)

to:

* In ''Beneath the Planet of the Apes'' Taylor blows the whole planet up, due at least in part to the apes and the mutated men. But he's only seen a small portion of the planet! How does he know the rest of the world is like the area around what used to be New York City? (Bear in mind I'm bugged by the film; the original book establishes very well that the entire world is a ''planet'' of apes, not just a small area.)



*** Charlton Heston has said that Taylor was merely reaching for Zaius and his dying hand fell on the trigger by coincidence. It's supposed to be ambiguous, but given Taylor apparent death wish following Nova's death, it can seem like he did it on purpose. Either way, the filmmakers' message that an endless cycle of war will lead to mankind's destruction is proven right whether we deliberately wipe ourselves out or do so inadvertently.

to:

*** Charlton Heston Creator/CharltonHeston has said that Taylor was merely reaching for Zaius and his dying hand fell on the trigger by coincidence. It's supposed to be ambiguous, but given Taylor apparent death wish following Nova's death, it can seem like he did it on purpose. Either way, the filmmakers' message that an endless cycle of war will lead to mankind's destruction is proven right whether we deliberately wipe ourselves out or do so inadvertently.



** Remember, ''TheWildBunch'' had just come out the previous year. Ending the movie with a badass but ultimately pointless bloodbath was a recurring theme during that period in film.

to:

** Remember, ''TheWildBunch'' ''Film/TheWildBunch'' had just come out the previous year. Ending the movie with a badass but ultimately pointless bloodbath was a recurring theme during that period in film.



* In the first film, it is noted that while the astronauts have been away from Earth for centuries due to time dilation (Charlton Heston's character even notes that the men who sent him on the voyage are now dead). But in the third film, ''Escape From the Planet of the Apes'', the President says that Taylor's ship has been missing for two years. As though he were expecting it to return within his own lifetime. What's going on?

to:

* In the first film, it is noted that while the astronauts have been away from Earth for centuries due to time dilation (Charlton Heston's character (Taylor even notes that the men who sent him on the voyage are now dead). But in the third film, ''Escape From the Planet of the Apes'', the President says that Taylor's ship has been missing for two years. As though he were expecting it to return within his own lifetime. What's going on?



* Why do the humans start taking apes as pets? ''Escape From the Planet of the Apes'' had Cornelius tell humanity how the apes would rise starting with pets. Humanity clearly believed this because instead of treating talking apes as the incredible wonder that we would it's seen as a huge problem and they spend a lot of Conquest trying to kill Caesar because they know what he represents. So given they had warnings, warnings that were apparently taken seriously by the majority of humanity, (It would be different if the talking space apes were treated as some kind of hoax) why do they still take ape pets and on top of that start training them to do things as complicated as shopping and cutting hair? If I were in that scenario I'd be going circus to to circus exterminating organ grinding monkeys and no amount of dead pets would make me allow you to have ape pets. Pigs, iguanas, spiders, snakes, gerbils, possums, kangaroos. . .there has to be something. Hell we know horses survived the plague everybody could rock MyLittlePony as long as it wasn't an ape. It's like a case of an entire planet being TooDumbToLive.

to:

* Why do the humans start taking apes as pets? ''Escape From the Planet of the Apes'' had Cornelius tell humanity how the apes would rise starting with pets. Humanity clearly believed this because instead of treating talking apes as the incredible wonder that we would it's seen as a huge problem and they spend a lot of Conquest trying to kill Caesar because they know what he represents. So given they had warnings, warnings that were apparently taken seriously by the majority of humanity, (It would be different if the talking space apes were treated as some kind of hoax) why do they still take ape pets and on top of that start training them to do things as complicated as shopping and cutting hair? If I were in that scenario I'd be going circus to to circus exterminating organ grinding monkeys and no amount of dead pets would make me allow you to have ape pets. Pigs, iguanas, spiders, snakes, gerbils, possums, kangaroos. . .there has to be something. Hell we know horses survived the plague everybody could rock MyLittlePony ''Franchise/MyLittlePony'' as long as it wasn't an ape. It's like a case of an entire planet being TooDumbToLive.
12th Aug '17 9:06:15 AM Naram-Sin
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*** You could ask the same to the pre-Civil War South.
12th Aug '17 8:58:21 AM Naram-Sin
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** Is the novel different to the Hungarian comic? In the comic Ulysse takes off with Nova and their child again after they learn that Earth has been taken over by apes, and his intention is to look for some third planet to live in (WritersCannotDoMath coupled with AllPlanetsAreEarthlike and SpaceIsAnOcean, as is typical of stories at the time this came out). The bottle implies that Ulysse never found a suitable planet.
29th Jul '17 4:57:46 AM ZemplinTemplar
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* In ''Beneath the Planet of the Apes'' Taylor blows the whole planet up, due at least in part to the apes and the mutated men. But he's only seen a small portion of the planet! How does he know the rest of the world is like the area around what used to be New York City? (Bear in mind I'm bugged by the film; the original book establishes very well that the entire world is a ''planet'' of apes, not just a small area.)
** He was ''dying''. It was his last act of defiance to Dr. Zaius.
*** Charlton Heston has said that Taylor was merely reaching for Zaius and his dying hand fell on the trigger by coincidence. It's supposed to be ambiguous, but given Taylor apparent death wish following Nova's death, it can seem like he did it on purpose. Either way, the filmmakers' message that an endless cycle of war will lead to mankind's destruction is proven right whether we deliberately wipe ourselves out or do so inadvertently.
** Also remember, Nova had just been killed by an ape, so what's the point?
** Remember, ''TheWildBunch'' had just come out the previous year. Ending the movie with a badass but ultimately pointless bloodbath was a recurring theme during that period in film.
** How did Taylor and Brent know the bomb would destroy the world? It is clear they left Earth in the 1970's, a time when humanity clearly did not have the technology to build [[EarthShatteringKaboom bombs that could destroy a whole planet]], and as such would not recognize a bomb that could.
*** The bomb would still wipe out an important part of humanity's remnants, as well as the local ape civilization. As it's implied that the world is already seriously messed up from previous wars, this definitely insures things would go FromBadToWorse.
*** Actually, one of the properties of a thermonuclear weapon is that you can build one of arbitrarily large size with enough materials. Lithium deuteride and depleted uranium are completely stable unless and until they are exposed to the conditions of a nuclear explosion: 100 million degree temperatures combined with an enormous neutron flux. Once you trigger the secondary by detonating the pure fission device in the primary, the secondary will continue to burn until it either runs out of fuel or the pressure blows it apart. Tsar Bomba was built at over 50 megatons, and Tsar Bomba Class nuclear weapons can go as high as 100 megatons. If we can build a 100 megaton bomb, we can build a bomb of any size given enough material.
*** Humanity didn't (and still doesn't) have the technology to build functioning cryogenic chambers or spacecraft capable of relativistic speeds either, yet Taylor (and Brent, and later Burke and Virdon) began their missions in the late 1970's/early 1980's. The Apes universe appears to be an alternate timeline with more advanced technology, so who's to say what their weapons technology is or isn't capable of?
* 2001 version. Seriously, what the hell was up with the ending? So Earth is inhabited by apes now? Huh? Why is there [[strike: a Monkey]] '''[[IncrediblyLamePun Ape]]''' Lincoln?
** See the WMG for @/MacPhisto's explanation.
** They're counterparts. I wonder what Ape Lincoln did; Did he free an ape race from another?
*** The website claims that Thade simply went back in time using the other pod and started an ape revolution on Earth, freeing them from humans. That, of course, would cause the GrandfatherParadox. If humans never build the ''Oberon'', then it never crashes on the other planet, and Thade's ancestor Simos never establishes an ape society.
*** It would not create a GrandfatherParadox. Leo returned to Earth on October 26, 2155, while he left Saturn's orbit in the year 2029. The ape revolution could have happened in those 128 years.
*** Um... no it couldn't. At all. Did the Apes demolish the human statue of Lincoln and put an identical Ape one in its place? At the latest the Revolution must have took place by the mid 1800's.
*** Not entirely impossible scenario. The apes, well, ''ape'' humans a lot. They could easily just replace human monuments with their own and leave everything else as is.
*** The Lincoln Memorial wasn't built until the 1930's. The Apes could have demolished the statue at any time, and replaced it with their own. Human civilizations did/do that all the time (the Egyptians were ''notorious'' for retconning their own history!)
** An even bigger question for the 2001 remake: the apes and the humans on an alien planet are easy to explain, as they survived the crash of the ''Oberon''. ''Where the hell did all those horses come from???''
*** Only two possible explantations. Either the alien planet just happened to have horse-like creatures on it...or the space station had, for whatever reason, experimental animals that included horses in addition to the experimental apes.

to:

[[folder:Pierre Boulle's novel]]
* In ''Beneath The book. The story of Ulysse, our human hero and narrator, is one found transcribed onto paper and found as a literal message in a bottle by the Planet spacefaring characters of the Apes'' Taylor blows the whole planet up, due at least in part to the apes Jinn and the mutated men. But he's only seen a small portion of the planet! How Phyllis. Allowing for how Ulysse's transcript ends, how does he know get the rest of the world is like the area around what used to be New York City? (Bear in mind I'm bugged by the film; the original book establishes very well that the entire world is a ''planet'' of apes, not just a small area.)
** He was ''dying''. It was his last act of defiance to Dr. Zaius.
*** Charlton Heston has said that Taylor was merely reaching for Zaius and his dying hand fell on the trigger by coincidence. It's supposed to be ambiguous, but given Taylor apparent death wish following Nova's death, it can seem like he did it on purpose. Either way, the filmmakers'
message that an endless cycle of war will lead to mankind's destruction is proven right whether we deliberately wipe ourselves out or do so inadvertently.
** Also remember, Nova had just been killed by an ape, so what's the point?
** Remember, ''TheWildBunch'' had just come out the previous year. Ending the movie with a badass but ultimately pointless bloodbath was a recurring theme during that period in film.
** How did Taylor and Brent know the bomb would destroy the world? It is clear they left Earth in the 1970's, a time when humanity clearly did not have the technology to build [[EarthShatteringKaboom bombs that could destroy a whole planet]], and as such would not recognize a bomb that could.
*** The bomb would still wipe out an important part of humanity's remnants, as well as the local ape civilization. As it's implied that the world is already seriously messed up from previous wars, this definitely insures things would go FromBadToWorse.
*** Actually, one of the properties of a thermonuclear weapon is that you can build one of arbitrarily large size with enough materials. Lithium deuteride and depleted uranium are completely stable unless and until they are exposed to the conditions of a nuclear explosion: 100 million degree temperatures combined with an enormous neutron flux. Once you trigger the secondary by detonating the pure fission device in the primary, the secondary will continue to burn until it either runs out of fuel or the pressure blows it apart. Tsar Bomba was built at over 50 megatons, and Tsar Bomba Class nuclear weapons can go as high as 100 megatons. If we can build a 100 megaton bomb, we can build a bomb of any size given enough material.
*** Humanity didn't (and still doesn't) have the technology to build functioning cryogenic chambers or spacecraft capable of relativistic speeds either, yet Taylor (and Brent, and later Burke and Virdon) began their missions in the late 1970's/early 1980's. The Apes universe appears to be an alternate timeline with more advanced technology, so who's to say what their weapons technology is or isn't capable of?
* 2001 version. Seriously, what the hell was up with the ending? So Earth is inhabited by apes now? Huh? Why is there [[strike: a Monkey]] '''[[IncrediblyLamePun Ape]]''' Lincoln?
** See the WMG for @/MacPhisto's explanation.
** They're counterparts. I wonder what Ape Lincoln did; Did he free an ape race from another?
*** The website claims that Thade simply went
back in time using the other pod and started an ape revolution on Earth, freeing them from humans. That, into space?
** And why? Probably intended as a SequelHook.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Planet
of course, would cause the GrandfatherParadox. If humans never build the ''Oberon'', then it never crashes on the other planet, and Thade's ancestor Simos never establishes an ape society.
*** It would not create a GrandfatherParadox. Leo returned to Earth on October 26, 2155, while he left Saturn's orbit in the year 2029. The ape revolution could have happened in those 128 years.
*** Um... no it couldn't. At all. Did
the Apes demolish the human statue of Lincoln and put an identical Ape one in its place? At the latest the Revolution must have took place by the mid 1800's.
*** Not entirely impossible scenario. The apes, well, ''ape'' humans a lot. They could easily just replace human monuments with their own and leave everything else as is.
*** The Lincoln Memorial wasn't built until the 1930's. The Apes could have demolished the statue at any time, and replaced it with their own. Human civilizations did/do that all the time (the Egyptians were ''notorious'' for retconning their own history!)
** An even bigger question for the 2001 remake: the apes and the humans on an alien planet are easy to explain, as they survived the crash of the ''Oberon''. ''Where the hell did all those horses come from???''
*** Only two possible explantations. Either the alien planet just happened to have horse-like creatures on it...or the space station had, for whatever reason, experimental animals that included horses in addition to the experimental apes.
(1968)]]



*** Presumably they're never taught how to speak. They just punished if they speak so most probably never even try, if they can comprehend that. If a human doesn't gain access to certain things, like speech, before a certain age that part of their brain gets "blocked" off.

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*** ** Presumably they're never taught how to speak. They just punished if they speak so most probably never even try, if they can comprehend that. If a human doesn't gain access to certain things, like speech, before a certain age that part of their brain gets "blocked" off.



*** Maybe at some point humans evolved not to speak due to a genetic bottleneck. Like a plague wiped humans that could speak, leaving only those who were mute who also had the immunity linked to the trait of muteness. This is the explanation given in one of the scripts for a Planet of the Apes remake. It's a bit of a stretch but this is Sci-Fi.
*** Human speech is not itself an evolutionary trait. The only evolutionary aspect of it is having a mind capable to relate specific sounds or symbols with concepts, reproduce them to convey the concepts in context-related circumstances, and develop as a society an unified code for all this. Vocal folds help, but if we had a brain and lacked them, language may have taken another form. Or not. A common mistake is to think of evolution in a deterministic way, as if intelligence ''had'' to lead to civilization, because in our case it did so. Whales and Dolphins are even more intelligent than humans and there is no whale civilization, humans left in the wild for generations may stay as savage animals and never recreate civilized traits again.

to:

*** ** Maybe at some point humans evolved not to speak due to a genetic bottleneck. Like a plague wiped humans that could speak, leaving only those who were mute who also had the immunity linked to the trait of muteness. This is the explanation given in one of the scripts for a Planet of the Apes remake. It's a bit of a stretch but this is Sci-Fi.
*** ** Human speech is not itself an evolutionary trait. The only evolutionary aspect of it is having a mind capable to relate specific sounds or symbols with concepts, reproduce them to convey the concepts in context-related circumstances, and develop as a society an unified code for all this. Vocal folds help, but if we had a brain and lacked them, language may have taken another form. Or not. A common mistake is to think of evolution in a deterministic way, as if intelligence ''had'' to lead to civilization, because in our case it did so. Whales and Dolphins are even more intelligent than humans and there is no whale civilization, humans left in the wild for generations may stay as savage animals and never recreate civilized traits again.



* The remake: Umm... if humans outnumber apes, can talk, and have opposable thumbs... why are the apes in charge again?
** They're ''Apes''. Strong, easily angered, ''sapient'' apes. Humans appeared to have lost their knowledge for weapons a long time ago, leaving them vulnerable.
** Do they really outnumber the apes? The prequel comics mention that most of the ''Oberon'' crew was killed in the crash. The survivors were forced to defend themselves against intelligent BigCreepyCrawlies, so they enhanced the apes. That [[TurnedAgainstTheirMasters didn't turn out well]].
** But why do the apes treat humans like animals? In the original movie it made sense, since humans had ape-like intelligence, but in the remake they are sentient beings, they can talk and think and so on. If they consider the humans inferior, they can just make them inferior-class citizens. Enslaving them makes sense; treating them like non-sentient beings doesn't.
* This is certainly a headscratcher for me: as we all know the events of the first two movies take place in [[AfterTheEnd post apocalyptic New York]], however, ''Escape From the Planet of the Apes'' takes place in Los Angeles and it appears that ''Conquest...'' and ''Battle...'' take place in the remains of a Southern California city as well, possibly future Los Angeles. The implication in ''Battle...'' is the ape village being constructed will eventually become Ape City from the first two movies. How is this possible, considering New York and Los Angeles are 3,000 miles apart?
** On that note, how did the topography of the [former] NYC area change to look like [[CaliforniaDoubling Southern California cliffs]]? C'mon, an atomic bomb can't do ''that'', no matter how much you worship it.
** ''Conquest'' was filmed in LA, but the location legend at the beginning of the movie only says that it takes place in "North America". Since Armando is the head of a travelling circus, it isn't too far-fetched to assume that they are in New York or in some nearby city.
* How would a single talking chimp with no concept of modern technology set up an ape revolution, considering this would require ''genetically-engineered'' apes, which we only saw on the ''Oberon''. The originals actually make it clear that apes are everywhere thanks to all the other pets dying out. The remake doesn't mention anything like that.
** Moreover, why would a future space mission bring a bunch of apes along in the first place? Even if they're genetically-engineered to be smarter, there's nothing they can do that a robotic drone couldn't, and the latter wouldn't be a drain on the ''Oberon'''s life-support facilities. The only reason apes were ever sent into space in the first place was to confirm that anthropoid brains would still function in space; once they knew it was safe enough for humans, orbital bio-research switched to smaller organisms that were lightweight, harmless, and easy to maintain.
* As there didn't seem to be any sentient gibbons or siamangs running around in this franchise, shouldn't it be called Planet of the ''Great'' Apes?
** WE only get to see a small part of North America. If it makes you feel better, write a fanfic called 'Southern Hemisphere of the Gibbons'.
* Apes make ''terrible'' pets: dangerous, destructive, unmanageable and expensive. Yet the original films had them as replacements for dogs and cats. Does that mean that rabbits, ferrets, parakeets, hamsters, and all the other animals that were vastly more suited to be pets also died out? Bloody selective plague, if so, considering that horses and humans both survived.
** The only explanation that might have explained this, and I stress *might*, is if the movie would have suggested the apes in ''Conquest...'' had been genetically altered to be a slave race as opposed to just being normal apes that had been trained. This too would have explained why all the apes were now humanoid in appearance.
** The novelization does in fact state that the apes were genetically modified to make them more pliable as pets (and more intelligent to handle menial work).

to:

* The remake: Umm... if humans outnumber apes, can talk, and have opposable thumbs... why are the apes in charge again?
** They're ''Apes''. Strong, easily angered, ''sapient'' apes. Humans appeared to have lost their knowledge for weapons a long time ago, leaving them vulnerable.
** Do they really outnumber the apes? The prequel comics mention that most of the ''Oberon'' crew was killed in the crash. The survivors were forced to defend themselves against intelligent BigCreepyCrawlies, so they enhanced the apes. That [[TurnedAgainstTheirMasters didn't turn out well]].
** But why do the apes treat humans like animals?
In the original movie it made sense, since humans had ape-like intelligence, but in the remake they are sentient beings, they can talk and think and so on. If they consider the humans inferior, they can just make them inferior-class citizens. Enslaving them makes sense; treating them like non-sentient beings doesn't.
* This is certainly a headscratcher for me: as we all know the events of
the first two movies take place in [[AfterTheEnd post apocalyptic New York]], however, ''Escape From the Planet of the Apes'' takes place in Los Angeles and it appears that ''Conquest...'' and ''Battle...'' take place in the remains of a Southern California city as well, possibly future Los Angeles. The implication in ''Battle...'' is the ape village being constructed will eventually become Ape City from the first two movies. How is this possible, considering New York and Los Angeles are 3,000 miles apart?
** On that note, how did the topography of the [former] NYC area change to look like [[CaliforniaDoubling Southern California cliffs]]? C'mon, an atomic bomb can't do ''that'', no matter how much you worship it.
** ''Conquest'' was filmed in LA, but the location legend at the beginning of the
movie only says that it takes place in "North America". Since Armando is the head of a travelling circus, it isn't too far-fetched to assume that they are in New York or in some nearby city.
* How would a single talking chimp with no concept of modern technology set up an ape revolution, considering this would require ''genetically-engineered'' apes, which we only saw on the ''Oberon''. The originals
monkeys say flight is impossible, but what about birds? If [[spoiler:they actually make it clear took the Earth]] aren't they supposed to exist?
** They probably mean 'a machine
that apes are everywhere thanks allows an ape to all fly is impossible'. Not counting the other pets dying out. The remake doesn't mention anything like that.
** Moreover, why would a future space mission bring a bunch
legend of apes along in the first place? Even if they're genetically-engineered to be smarter, there's nothing they can do that a robotic drone couldn't, and the latter wouldn't be a drain on the ''Oberon'''s life-support facilities. The only reason apes were ever sent into space in the first place was to confirm that anthropoid brains would still function in space; once they knew it was safe enough for humans, orbital bio-research switched to smaller organisms that were lightweight, harmless, and easy to maintain.
* As there didn't seem to be any sentient gibbons or siamangs running around in this franchise, shouldn't it be called Planet of the ''Great'' Apes?
** WE only get to see a small part of North America. If it makes you feel better, write a fanfic called 'Southern Hemisphere of the Gibbons'.
* Apes make ''terrible'' pets: dangerous, destructive, unmanageable and expensive. Yet the original films had them as replacements for dogs and cats. Does that mean that rabbits, ferrets, parakeets, hamsters, and all the other animals that were vastly more suited to be pets also died out? Bloody selective plague, if so, considering that horses and
Icarus, humans both survived.
** The only explanation that might have explained this, and I stress *might*, is if
said pretty much the movie would have suggested the apes in ''Conquest...'' had been genetically altered to be a slave race as opposed to just being normal apes that had been trained. This too would have explained why all the apes were now humanoid in appearance.
** The novelization does in fact state that the apes were genetically modified to make them more pliable as pets (and more intelligent to handle menial work).
same thing for many centuries.



* In the first film, it is noted that while the astronauts have been away from Earth for centuries due to time dilation (Charlton Heston's character even notes that the men who sent him on the voyage are now dead). But in the third film, the President says that Taylor's ship has been missing for two years, as though he were expecting it to return within his own lifetime. What's going on?
** Funny thing about relativistic acceleration: it produces a one-way event horizon behind you. If you accelerate at 1 g away from Earth space, after one year you will no longer be able to ever receive signals from Earth (until you stop accelerating away from Earth), but Earth will still be able to receive signals from you, albeit greatly red-shifted. It is, of course, possible to red-shift a signal so great that our receivers can't detect it. Evidently, the President was surprised that the ship hadn't checked in in two years.



* How did the English language remain so fully unchanged through ape revolution, nuclear war, and centuries of primitive culture? And how did the small ape community shown in the original movie maintain such a wide range of twentieth-century accents?
** An extremely conservative culture steeped in religious ritual might keep 'the First Speech' alive in the same way we still use Latin.
* Why do the humans start taking apes as pets? Escape From the Planet of the Apes had Cornelius tell humanity how the apes would rise starting with pets. Humanity clearly believed this because instead of treating talking apes as the incredible wonder that we would it's seen as a huge problem and they spend a lot of Conquest trying to kill Caesar because they know what he represents. So given they had warnings, warnings that were apparently taken seriously by the majority of humanity, (It would be different if the talking space apes were treated as some kind of hoax) why do they still take ape pets and on top of that start training them to do things as complicated as shopping and cutting hair? If I were in that scenario I'd be going circus to to circus exterminating organ grinding monkeys and no amount of dead pets would make me allow you to have ape pets. Pigs, iguanas, spiders, snakes, gerbils, possums, kangaroos. . .there has to be something. Hell we know horses survived the plague everybody could rock MyLittlePony as long as it wasn't an ape. It's like a case of an entire planet being TooDumbToLive.
* The Book. The story of Ulysse, our human hero and narrator, is one found transcribed onto paper and found as a literal message in a bottle by the spacefaring characters of Jinn and Phyllis. Allowing for how Ulysse's transcript ends, how does he get the message back into space?
** And why? Probably intended as a SequelHook.

to:

* How did the English language remain so fully unchanged through ape revolution, nuclear war, and centuries of primitive culture? And how did the small ape community shown in the original movie maintain such a wide range of twentieth-century accents?
** An extremely conservative culture steeped in religious ritual might keep 'the First Speech' alive in the same way we still use Latin.
* Why do the humans start taking apes as pets? Escape From
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Beneath
the Planet of the Apes had Cornelius tell humanity how the apes would rise starting with pets. Humanity clearly believed this because instead of treating talking apes as the incredible wonder that we would it's seen as a huge problem and they spend a lot of Conquest trying to kill Caesar because they know what he represents. So given they had warnings, warnings that were apparently taken seriously by the majority of humanity, (It would be different if the talking space apes were treated as some kind of hoax) why do they still take ape pets and on top of that start training them to do things as complicated as shopping and cutting hair? If I were in that scenario I'd be going circus to to circus exterminating organ grinding monkeys and no amount of dead pets would make me allow you to have ape pets. Pigs, iguanas, spiders, snakes, gerbils, possums, kangaroos. . .there has to be something. Hell we know horses survived the plague everybody could rock MyLittlePony as long as it wasn't an ape. It's like a case of an entire planet being TooDumbToLive.
* The Book. The story of Ulysse, our human hero and narrator, is one found transcribed onto paper and found as a literal message in a bottle by the spacefaring characters of Jinn and Phyllis. Allowing for how Ulysse's transcript ends, how does he get the message back into space?
** And why? Probably intended as a SequelHook.
(1970)]]



* In the first movie the monkeys say flight is impossible, but what about birds? If [[spoiler:they actually took the Earth]] aren't they supposed to exist?
** They probably mean 'a machine that allows an ape to fly is impossible'. Not counting the legend of Icarus, humans said pretty much the same thing for many centuries.

to:

* In ''Beneath the Planet of the Apes'' Taylor blows the whole planet up, due at least in part to the apes and the mutated men. But he's only seen a small portion of the planet! How does he know the rest of the world is like the area around what used to be New York City? (Bear in mind I'm bugged by the film; the original book establishes very well that the entire world is a ''planet'' of apes, not just a small area.)
** He was ''dying''. It was his last act of defiance to Dr. Zaius.
*** Charlton Heston has said that Taylor was merely reaching for Zaius and his dying hand fell on the trigger by coincidence. It's supposed to be ambiguous, but given Taylor apparent death wish following Nova's death, it can seem like he did it on purpose. Either way, the filmmakers' message that an endless cycle of war will lead to mankind's destruction is proven right whether we deliberately wipe ourselves out or do so inadvertently.
** Also remember, Nova had just been killed by an ape, so what's the point?
** Remember, ''TheWildBunch'' had just come out the previous year. Ending the movie with a badass but ultimately pointless bloodbath was a recurring theme during that period in film.
** How did Taylor and Brent know the bomb would destroy the world? It is clear they left Earth in the 1970's, a time when humanity clearly did not have the technology to build [[EarthShatteringKaboom bombs that could destroy a whole planet]], and as such would not recognize a bomb that could.
*** The bomb would still wipe out an important part of humanity's remnants, as well as the local ape civilization. As it's implied that the world is already seriously messed up from previous wars, this definitely insures things would go FromBadToWorse.
*** Actually, one of the properties of a thermonuclear weapon is that you can build one of arbitrarily large size with enough materials. Lithium deuteride and depleted uranium are completely stable unless and until they are exposed to the conditions of a nuclear explosion: 100 million degree temperatures combined with an enormous neutron flux. Once you trigger the secondary by detonating the pure fission device in the primary, the secondary will continue to burn until it either runs out of fuel or the pressure blows it apart. Tsar Bomba was built at over 50 megatons, and Tsar Bomba Class nuclear weapons can go as high as 100 megatons. If we can build a 100 megaton bomb, we can build a bomb of any size given enough material.
*** Humanity didn't (and still doesn't) have the technology to build functioning cryogenic chambers or spacecraft capable of relativistic speeds either, yet Taylor (and Brent, and later Burke and Virdon) began their missions in the late 1970s/early 1980s. The Apes universe appears to be an alternate timeline with more advanced technology, so who's to say what their weapons technology is or isn't capable of?
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Later sequels (1971-1973)]]
* In the first film, it is noted that while the astronauts have been away from Earth for centuries due to time dilation (Charlton Heston's character even notes that the men who sent him on the voyage are now dead). But in the third film, ''Escape From the Planet of the Apes'', the President says that Taylor's ship has been missing for two years. As though he were expecting it to return within his own lifetime. What's going on?
** Funny thing about relativistic acceleration: it produces a one-way event horizon behind you. If you accelerate at 1 g away from Earth space, after one year you will no longer be able to ever receive signals from Earth (until you stop accelerating away from Earth), but Earth will still be able to receive signals from you, albeit greatly red-shifted. It is, of course, possible to red-shift a signal so great that our receivers can't detect it. Evidently, the President was surprised that the ship hadn't checked in in two years.
* This is certainly a headscratcher for me: as we all know the events of the first two movies take place in [[AfterTheEnd post apocalyptic New York]], however, ''Escape From the Planet of the Apes'' takes place in Los Angeles and it appears that ''Conquest...'' and ''Battle...'' take place in the remains of a Southern California city as well, possibly future Los Angeles. The implication in ''Battle...'' is the ape village being constructed will eventually become Ape City from the first two movies. How is this possible, considering New York and Los Angeles are 3,000 miles apart?
** On that note, how did the topography of the [former] NYC area change to look like [[CaliforniaDoubling Southern California cliffs]]? C'mon, an atomic bomb can't do ''that'', no matter how much you worship it.
** ''Conquest'' was filmed in LA, but the location legend at the beginning of the
movie only says that it takes place in "North America". Since Armando is the head of a travelling circus, it isn't too far-fetched to assume that they are in New York or in some nearby city.
* Apes make ''terrible'' pets: dangerous, destructive, unmanageable and expensive. Yet the original films had them as replacements for dogs and cats. Does that mean that rabbits, ferrets, parakeets, hamsters, and all the other animals that were vastly more suited to be pets also died out? Bloody selective plague, if so, considering that horses and humans both survived.
** The only explanation that might have explained this, and I stress *might*, is if the movie would have suggested the apes in ''Conquest...'' had been genetically altered to be a slave race as opposed to just being normal apes that had been trained. This too would have explained why all the apes were now humanoid in appearance.
** The novelization does in fact state that the apes were genetically modified to make them more pliable as pets (and more intelligent to handle menial work).
* Why do the humans start taking apes as pets? ''Escape From the Planet of the Apes'' had Cornelius tell humanity how the apes would rise starting with pets. Humanity clearly believed this because instead of treating talking apes as the incredible wonder that we would it's seen as a huge problem and they spend a lot of Conquest trying to kill Caesar because they know what he represents. So given they had warnings, warnings that were apparently taken seriously by the majority of humanity, (It would be different if the talking space apes were treated as some kind of hoax) why do they still take ape pets and on top of that start training them to do things as complicated as shopping and cutting hair? If I were in that scenario I'd be going circus to to circus exterminating organ grinding
monkeys say flight is impossible, but and no amount of dead pets would make me allow you to have ape pets. Pigs, iguanas, spiders, snakes, gerbils, possums, kangaroos. . .there has to be something. Hell we know horses survived the plague everybody could rock MyLittlePony as long as it wasn't an ape. It's like a case of an entire planet being TooDumbToLive.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Tim Burton's remake (2001)]]
* Seriously,
what about birds? the hell was up with the ending? So Earth is inhabited by apes now? Huh? Why is there [[strike: a Monkey]] '''[[IncrediblyLamePun Ape]]''' Lincoln?
** See the WMG for @/MacPhisto's explanation.
** They're counterparts. I wonder what Ape Lincoln did; Did he free an ape race from another?
*** The website claims that Thade simply went back in time using the other pod and started an ape revolution on Earth, freeing them from humans. That, of course, would cause the GrandfatherParadox.
If [[spoiler:they humans never build the ''Oberon'', then it never crashes on the other planet, and Thade's ancestor Simos never establishes an ape society.
*** It would not create a GrandfatherParadox. Leo returned to Earth on October 26, 2155, while he left Saturn's orbit in the year 2029. The ape revolution could have happened in those 128 years.
*** Um... no it couldn't. At all. Did the Apes demolish the human statue of Lincoln and put an identical Ape one in its place? At the latest the Revolution must have took place by the mid 1800's.
*** Not entirely impossible scenario. The apes, well, ''ape'' humans a lot. They could easily just replace human monuments with their own and leave everything else as is.
*** The Lincoln Memorial wasn't built until the 1930's. The Apes could have demolished the statue at any time, and replaced it with their own. Human civilizations did/do that all the time (the Egyptians were ''notorious'' for retconning their own history!)
** An even bigger question for the 2001 remake: the apes and the humans on an alien planet are easy to explain, as they survived the crash of the ''Oberon''. ''Where the hell did all those horses come from???''
*** Only two possible explantations. Either the alien planet just happened to have horse-like creatures on it...or the space station had, for whatever reason, experimental animals that included horses in addition to the experimental apes.
* The remake: Umm... if humans outnumber apes, can talk, and have opposable thumbs... why are the apes in charge again?
** They're ''Apes''. Strong, easily angered, ''sapient'' apes. Humans appeared to have lost their knowledge for weapons a long time ago, leaving them vulnerable.
** Do they really outnumber the apes? The prequel comics mention that most of the ''Oberon'' crew was killed in the crash. The survivors were forced to defend themselves against intelligent BigCreepyCrawlies, so they enhanced the apes. That [[TurnedAgainstTheirMasters didn't turn out well]].
** But why do the apes treat humans like animals? In the original movie it made sense, since humans had ape-like intelligence, but in the remake they are sentient beings, they can talk and think and so on. If they consider the humans inferior, they can just make them inferior-class citizens. Enslaving them makes sense; treating them like non-sentient beings doesn't.
* How would a single talking chimp with no concept of modern technology set up an ape revolution, considering this would require ''genetically-engineered'' apes, which we only saw on the ''Oberon''. The originals
actually took make it clear that apes are everywhere thanks to all the Earth]] aren't other pets dying out. The remake doesn't mention anything like that.
** Moreover, why would a future space mission bring a bunch of apes along in the first place? Even if they're genetically-engineered to be smarter, there's nothing
they supposed to exist?
** They probably mean 'a machine
can do that allows an a robotic drone couldn't, and the latter wouldn't be a drain on the ''Oberon'''s life-support facilities. The only reason apes were ever sent into space in the first place was to confirm that anthropoid brains would still function in space; once they knew it was safe enough for humans, orbital bio-research switched to smaller organisms that were lightweight, harmless, and easy to maintain.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Multiple / Miscellaneous]]
* As there didn't seem to be any sentient gibbons or siamangs running around in this franchise, shouldn't it be called Planet of the ''Great'' Apes?
** WE only get to see a small part of North America. If it makes you feel better, write a fanfic called 'Southern Hemisphere of the Gibbons'.
* How did the English language remain so fully unchanged through
ape to fly is impossible'. Not counting revolution, nuclear war, and centuries of primitive culture? And how did the legend small ape community shown in the original movie maintain such a wide range of Icarus, humans said pretty much twentieth-century accents?
** An extremely conservative culture steeped in religious ritual might keep 'the First Speech' alive in
the same thing for many centuries.way we still use Latin.
[[/folder]]
24th Dec '16 2:48:49 PM starman117
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Added DiffLines:

*** His ship was set to travel hundreds of light years away from Earth and was already a long way away when he went into cryosleep, he probably never considered that it would somehow turn back and land on Earth by itself. As for why he didnt recognise Earth he never saw the Ape dominated Earth from Orbit, he woke up after they crash landed, and if I remember correctly they mention they can't see a moon.
8th Dec '16 1:30:42 AM Morgenthaler
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** Remember, ''TheWildBunch'' had just come out the previous year. Ending the movie with a BadAss but ultimately pointless bloodbath was a recurring theme during that period in film.

to:

** Remember, ''TheWildBunch'' had just come out the previous year. Ending the movie with a BadAss badass but ultimately pointless bloodbath was a recurring theme during that period in film.
4th Nov '16 8:35:34 PM LBHills
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*** Human speak is not itself an evolutionary trait. The only evolutionary aspect of it is having a mind capable to relate specific sounds or symbols with concepts, reproduce them to convey the concepts in context-related circumstances, and develop as a society an unified code for all this. Vocal folds help, but if we had a brain and lacked them, language may have taken another form. Or not. A common mistake is to think of evolution in a deterministic way, as if intelligence ''had'' to lead to civilization, because in our case it did so. Whales and Dolphins are even more intelligent than humans and there is no whale civilization, humans left in the wild for generations may stay as savage animals and never recreate civilized traits again.

to:

*** Human speak speech is not itself an evolutionary trait. The only evolutionary aspect of it is having a mind capable to relate specific sounds or symbols with concepts, reproduce them to convey the concepts in context-related circumstances, and develop as a society an unified code for all this. Vocal folds help, but if we had a brain and lacked them, language may have taken another form. Or not. A common mistake is to think of evolution in a deterministic way, as if intelligence ''had'' to lead to civilization, because in our case it did so. Whales and Dolphins are even more intelligent than humans and there is no whale civilization, humans left in the wild for generations may stay as savage animals and never recreate civilized traits again.



** No bonobos either (the few corpses in European hands when this movie came out were in boxes labeled 'immature chimpanzee'), and the most widespread great ape (humans) are implicitly excluded, so it should be called Planet of Some of the Great Apes (But Not Necessarily All of Them).

to:

** No bonobos either (the few corpses in European hands when this movie came out were in boxes labeled 'immature chimpanzee'), and the most widespread great ape (humans) are implicitly excluded, so WE only get to see a small part of North America. If it should be makes you feel better, write a fanfic called Planet of Some 'Southern Hemisphere of the Great Apes (But Not Necessarily All of Them).Gibbons'.



*** Maybe the story of Aldo was just a story, and interpreted as such. Like "A long time ago, there was a magical kingdom of talking humans, and these talking humans kept apes as pets and enslaved them, much like what we do with humans today. Then one day an ape named Aldo said 'No.' " It's only when Cornelius meets Taylor and goes back in time does he realize the story of Aldo was based on actual events. In the case of the orangatans, it is clear that they knew all about the true history, and were working to keep it secret, and so any evidence of humans talking is considered blasphemous. Gorillas of course, don't need to think about these things, and so it's easy for them to believe that all humans are dumb and have always been dumb.

to:

*** Maybe the story of Aldo was just a story, and interpreted as such. Like "A long time ago, there was a magical kingdom of talking humans, and these talking humans kept apes as pets and enslaved them, much like what we do with humans today. Then one day an ape named Aldo said 'No.' " It's only when Cornelius meets Taylor and goes back in time does he realize the story of Aldo was based on actual events. In the case of the orangatans, orangutans, it is clear that they knew all about the true history, and were working to keep it secret, and so any evidence of humans talking is considered blasphemous. Gorillas of course, don't need to think about these things, and so it's easy for them to believe that all humans are dumb and have always been dumb.



** The coast changed during the millenia, the statue (semi)collapsed and the remainder was buried in new sediment. This is not that strange: there are many cities in the Mediterranean that had ports in Roman times or before, and now are landlocked.

to:

** The coast changed during the millenia, millennia, the statue (semi)collapsed and the remainder was buried in new sediment. This is not that strange: there are many cities in the Mediterranean that had ports in Roman times or before, and now are landlocked.



** Funny thing about relativistic acceleration: it produces a one-way event horizon behind you. If you accelerate at 1 g away from Earth space, after one year you will no longer be able to ever receive signals from Earth (until you stop accelerating away from Earth), but Earth will still be able to receive signals from you, albeit greatly redshifted. It is, of course, possible to redshift a signal so great that our receivers can't detect it. Evidently, the President was surprised that the ship hadn't checked in in two years.

to:

** Funny thing about relativistic acceleration: it produces a one-way event horizon behind you. If you accelerate at 1 g away from Earth space, after one year you will no longer be able to ever receive signals from Earth (until you stop accelerating away from Earth), but Earth will still be able to receive signals from you, albeit greatly redshifted. red-shifted. It is, of course, possible to redshift red-shift a signal so great that our receivers can't detect it. Evidently, the President was surprised that the ship hadn't checked in in two years.



** Perhaps a test to determine whether humans could survive relativistic travel at all. Although they wouldn't necessarily tell the crew ''that.''



** Those are all excellent clues, but the idea that an ''astronaut'' would never look at the moon or the constellations seems even stranger. Then again, if he jumps to his 'blew it all up' speech the first time he looks up, the movie's kind of short.



* Why do the humans start taking apes as pets? Escape From the Planet of the Apes had Cornelius tell humanity how the apes would rise starting with pets. Humanity clearly believed this because instead of treating talking apes as the incredible wonder that we would it's seen as a huge problem and they spend a lot of Conquest trying to kill Caesar because they know what he represents. So given they had warnings, warnings that were apparently taken seriously by the majority of humanity, (It would be different if the talking space apes were treated as some kind of hoax)why do they still take ape pets and on top of that start training them to do things as complcated as shopping and cutting hair? If I were in that scenario I'd be going circus to to circus exterminating organ grinding monkeys and no amount of dead pets would make me allow you to have ape pets. Pigs, iguanas, spiders, snakes, gerbils, possums, kangaroos. . .there has to be something. Hell we know horses survived the plague everybody could rock MyLittlePony as long as it wasn't an ape. It's like a case of an entire planet being TooDumbToLive.

to:

** An extremely conservative culture steeped in religious ritual might keep 'the First Speech' alive in the same way we still use Latin.
* Why do the humans start taking apes as pets? Escape From the Planet of the Apes had Cornelius tell humanity how the apes would rise starting with pets. Humanity clearly believed this because instead of treating talking apes as the incredible wonder that we would it's seen as a huge problem and they spend a lot of Conquest trying to kill Caesar because they know what he represents. So given they had warnings, warnings that were apparently taken seriously by the majority of humanity, (It would be different if the talking space apes were treated as some kind of hoax)why hoax) why do they still take ape pets and on top of that start training them to do things as complcated complicated as shopping and cutting hair? If I were in that scenario I'd be going circus to to circus exterminating organ grinding monkeys and no amount of dead pets would make me allow you to have ape pets. Pigs, iguanas, spiders, snakes, gerbils, possums, kangaroos. . .there has to be something. Hell we know horses survived the plague everybody could rock MyLittlePony as long as it wasn't an ape. It's like a case of an entire planet being TooDumbToLive.



* The mutant humans in ''Beneath''. How'd they manage to survive all that time living with radiation? We did see what it did to their skin, but we also know that radiation causes thyroid cancer, sterility,birth defects...seems to me they're lucky not to have died out after a few generations.
* In the first movie the monkeys say flight is impossible, but what about birds? If [[spoiler:they actually took the Earth]] aren't they suppose to exist or did they kill all of them that they haven't seen any before?

to:

** And why? Probably intended as a SequelHook.
* The mutant humans in ''Beneath''. How'd they manage to survive all that time living with radiation? We did see what it did to their skin, but we also know that radiation causes thyroid cancer, sterility,birth sterility, birth defects...seems to me they're lucky not to have died out after a few generations.
* In the first movie the monkeys say flight is impossible, but what about birds? If [[spoiler:they actually took the Earth]] aren't they suppose supposed to exist or did they kill all of them exist?
** They probably mean 'a machine
that they haven't seen any before?allows an ape to fly is impossible'. Not counting the legend of Icarus, humans said pretty much the same thing for many centuries.
4th Nov '16 8:21:10 PM LBHills
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** No bonobos either (the few corpses in European hands when this movie came out were in boxes labeled 'immature chimpanzee'), and the most widespread great ape (humans) are implicitly excluded, so it should be called Planet of Some of the Great Apes (But Not Necessarily All of Them).
1st Sep '16 3:15:12 PM Snarf
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** The novelization does in fact state that the apes were genetically modified to make them more pliable as pets (and more intelligent to handle menial work).
1st Sep '16 3:10:23 PM Snarf
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***** The Lincoln Memorial wasn't built until the 1930's. The Apes could have demolished the statue at any time, and replaced it with their own. Human civilizations did/do that all the time (the Egyptians were ''notorious'' for retconning their own history!)
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