History Headscratchers / NeonGenesisEvangelion

26th Jan '18 1:31:15 AM Cryoclaste
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*** ...true, because neither science fiction nor fantasy has ever offered a commentary on human nature and culture, particularly this or that aspect, couched in a metaphysical allegory within a genre background. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm just going to go watch a ''Franchise/PlanetOfTheApes'' / ''Film/{{District 9}}'' double feature, and then maybe read some Creator/KurtVonnegut right after my favorite episode of ''TheTwilightZone''. Unless they're showing ''2001ASpaceOdyssey'', that is...

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*** ...true, because neither science fiction nor fantasy has ever offered a commentary on human nature and culture, particularly this or that aspect, couched in a metaphysical allegory within a genre background. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm just going to go watch a ''Franchise/PlanetOfTheApes'' / ''Film/{{District 9}}'' double feature, and then maybe read some Creator/KurtVonnegut right after my favorite episode of ''TheTwilightZone''. ''Franchise/TheTwilightZone''. Unless they're showing ''2001ASpaceOdyssey'', ''Film/2001ASpaceOdyssey'', that is...
31st Oct '17 5:15:51 AM Yugo1985
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** A simpler idea might be that most manga heroes, mech pilots in particular, are hot blooded and rather abrasive until they meet their kind hearted love interest who helps them become a better person by vowing to protect their delicate other half. Here, we see the protagonist as the delicate half, whose kindness and overall lack of some of the more negative hot-blooded hero traits are what attract the hot blooded girl, who isn't really hot blooded, but pretends to be as a shield to protect herself from being hurt.
30th Oct '17 8:34:09 PM Yugo1985
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** Don't forget that in the few episodes where they aren't stressed to the gills or having their world's unravel,Shinji is actually a pretty kind, genuine individual who tries his best to treat Asuka well. He makes her meals, cleans up after her and Misato and is pretty overall pleasant to be around. Compared to the other kids at school or that creepy pre-med student who were likely looking to score a piece of ass from the 'hot foreign exchange student' Shinji is a breath of fresh air, because, though Asuka would never say so, Shinji behaves like a perfect gentleman instead of a horny retard. Something she also praises Kaji for.
26th Oct '17 11:21:19 PM H.N.Levian
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*** "Weakening Shinji's mental state" is ''not'' just an "aside." It was a huge part of what made Third Impact go off in the first place. With or without Lilith, and with or without NERV as a whole, SEELE still needed the MP Evas to work with Eva-01, and that required Shinji to be as fucked up as possible. All the infrastructure damage is just tying up loose ends. No, SEELE couldn't have predicted for sure that, specifically, Kaworu would make Shinji fall in love with him and then make him crush him in Eva-01's hand. But they knew that Kaworu could do ''something'' to further their goals, either intentionally or by accident, and he did.

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*** "Weakening Shinji's mental state" is ''not'' just an "aside." It was a huge part of what made Third Impact go off in the first place. With or without Lilith, and with or without NERV as a whole, SEELE still needed the MP Evas to work with Eva-01, and that required Shinji to be as fucked up as possible.possible, because somebody has to pilot: even if they could just funnel commands into Eva-01 through a Dummy Plug, their Kaworu plugs wouldn't work because Eva-01 is a Lilith-type Eva and the Rei plugs were rendered unusable by Ritsuko. All the infrastructure damage is just tying up loose ends. No, SEELE couldn't have predicted for sure that, specifically, Kaworu would make Shinji fall in love with him and then make him crush him in Eva-01's hand. But they knew that Kaworu could do ''something'' to further their goals, either intentionally or by accident, and he did.
26th Oct '17 11:18:40 PM H.N.Levian
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**** "Weakening Shinji's mental state" is ''not'' just an "aside." It was a huge part of what made Third Impact go off in the first place. With or without Lilith, and with or without NERV as a whole, SEELE still needed the MP Evas to work with Eva-01, and that required Shinji to be as fucked up as possible. All the infrastructure damage is just tying up loose ends. No, SEELE couldn't have predicted for sure that, specifically, Kaworu would make Shinji fall in love with him and then make him crush him in Eva-01's hand. But they knew that Kaworu could do ''something'' to further their goals, either intentionally or by accident, and he did.
25th Oct '17 4:53:46 AM cillianflood
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**** NERV fighting Kaworu didn't weaken them (aside from weakening Shinji's mental state). He didn't knock out any resources or secruity measures. Even Unit 02 was perfectly fine by End of Evangelion (which means Shinji barely scratched it or a significant amount of time passed before the movie occurred). NERV didn't even need to be weakened. The assault on it was practically easy for SEELE. They had no defenses against the likes of N2 Mines and their only power house were the EVAs which could only function for five minutes once their cord was cut (except Unit 01 at this point but they clearly didn't plan for Kaowru to eliminate Unit 01 since they specifically wished for its success). And if their goal was to weaken NERV then having Kaowru assault them head on instead of surreptitiously would have both lowered his chances and done a better job of weakening NERV.
9th Oct '17 2:42:16 PM H.N.Levian
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*** Telling NERV about Kaworu in advance requires SEELE to admit that they created an Angel and harboured him for the past 15 years. That's like whatever, I guess, because Gendo and Fuyutsuki obviously put two and two together and figure that out on their own anyway, but SEELE wants NERV to learn about Kaworu ''only when they need to'' and ''not a second sooner than necessary'', because the sooner NERV knows about Kaworu, the more time Gendo has to figure out more about SEELE's strategy and capabilities. SEELE having had control of Adam's soul in the form of an Angel this whole time is a gamechanger. There's also the fact that SEELE ''wants'' NERV weakened from fighting Kaworu; warning them about him defeats that purpose. As for "what if Shinji bailed on NERV again," warning NERV about Kaworu doesn't actually stop Shinji from doing that anyway.

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*** Telling NERV about Kaworu in advance requires SEELE to admit that they created an Angel and harboured him for the past 15 years. That's like whatever, I guess, because Gendo and Fuyutsuki obviously put two and two together and figure that out on their own anyway, but SEELE wants NERV to learn about Kaworu ''only when they need to'' and ''not a second sooner than necessary'', because the sooner NERV knows about Kaworu, the more time Gendo has to figure out more about SEELE's strategy and capabilities. SEELE having had control of Adam's soul in the form of an Angel this whole time is a gamechanger. There's also the fact that SEELE ''wants'' NERV weakened from fighting Kaworu; warning them about him defeats that purpose. As for "what if Shinji bailed on NERV again," warning NERV about Kaworu doesn't actually stop Shinji from doing that anyway. Finally, SEELE can't control where NERV keeps Unit 01 and, if anything, they would have been ''glad'' to see Unit 01 trash Unit 02 because that removes another variable of their plan; we saw how Asuka's return to piloting irritated SEELE in EoE.
9th Oct '17 2:39:55 PM H.N.Levian
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*** Keep in mind that he was able to breath on the moon. His AT field is enough to block a bullet (or a not-nuke, seeing as it has been called "the strongest observed"), and his biology is inhuman enough to fight off any other simple means of assassination. While Angels don't need Eva to kill them, they don't go down without a lot of firepower.

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**** Telling NERV about Kaworu in advance requires SEELE to admit that they created an Angel and harboured him for the past 15 years. That's like whatever, I guess, because Gendo and Fuyutsuki obviously put two and two together and figure that out on their own anyway, but SEELE wants NERV to learn about Kaworu ''only when they need to'' and ''not a second sooner than necessary'', because the sooner NERV knows about Kaworu, the more time Gendo has to figure out more about SEELE's strategy and capabilities. SEELE having had control of Adam's soul in the form of an Angel this whole time is a gamechanger. There's also the fact that SEELE ''wants'' NERV weakened from fighting Kaworu; warning them about him defeats that purpose. As for "what if Shinji bailed on NERV again," warning NERV about Kaworu doesn't actually stop Shinji from doing that anyway.
*** Keep in mind that he was able to breath breathe on the moon. His AT field is enough to block a bullet (or a not-nuke, seeing as it has been called "the strongest observed"), and his biology is inhuman enough to fight off any other simple means of assassination. While Angels don't need Eva to kill them, they don't go down without a lot of firepower.
9th Oct '17 1:49:09 PM H.N.Levian
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**** That instinct is not shown in Kaworu but it's shown in ''all of the other Angels.'' But, again, I'm totally willing to accept that Kaworu could've resisted, because it seems to be more "pssst, Adam's over here" than "you will destroy NERV and fuse with your forebear," but that doesn't negate the other fact that was brought up: the longer he's alive, the longer SEELE and NERV or some other group of Lilin have to figure out how to use him as a pawn to start Third Impact against his will. Kaworu is a threat to humanity as long as he exists, whether or not he actually acts in pursuit of that goal; killing him is safer.
9th Oct '17 1:43:33 PM H.N.Levian
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* I get the broad strokes of Kaworu's character and what effect it has on Shinji, but every specific detail about him seems to be contradictory. First of all, why was he created? He's another angel, another obstacle stopping Seele from achieving their goals. Unless him merging with Adam actually would accomplish their goals, which would make sense of his actions, except Seele expressly say they want Eva 01 to kill him. So why send someone you want to lose? Is it just to fulfill the Dead Sea Scroll prophecies? There has to be seventeen angels? In that case, sure, create him, but then shoot him in the back of the head as soon as you can. It's not like EVAs are a divine requirement to defeat angels since the nanovirus one was defeated without an EVA. Hell defeating the last angel themselves would seriously help there move against Gendo since they could launch a surprise attack while he still thinks there's one more angel around.

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* I get the broad strokes of Kaworu's character and what effect it has on Shinji, but every specific detail about him seems to be contradictory. First of all, why was he created? He's another angel, another obstacle stopping Seele from achieving their goals. Unless him merging with Adam actually would accomplish their goals, which would make sense of his actions, except Seele expressly say they want Eva 01 to kill him. So why send someone you want to lose? Is it just to fulfill the Dead Sea Scroll prophecies? There has to be seventeen angels? In that case, sure, create him, but then shoot him in the back of the head as soon as you can. It's not like EVAs are a divine requirement to defeat angels since the nanovirus one was defeated without an EVA. Hell defeating the last angel themselves would seriously help there move against Gendo since they could launch a surprise attack while he still thinks there's one more angel around.\\



Next is his motivation. He says he wants humanity to live, great idea. So then why is he going along with any of Seele's plans? Why attack Terminal Dogma? Why not just spend his days listening to Mozart and banging Shinji? It's not like there's mind control implants or anything forcing him to act out his angel goals. He seems to be entirely in control of his actions. Is it just because he's suicidally depressed? In that case why not just kill himself? He's not a robot. Self terminating should be within his abilities (Rei was able to do it after all, albeit via heroic sacrafice). Does he have an obsessive need for Shinji to kill him? Doesn't seem like it since he only goes that root after noticing it's lilith and not adam in the terminal dogma. Which brings me to the gratest headscratcher of all. Why was he surprised by this and why was he even attacking the terminal in the first place? Seele told him Adam has been grafted to Gendo just moments before he started the attack. Unless he thinks Gendo is down there then he has no reason to go to the terminal dogma. Unless his desire is to fuse with lillith which it clearly isn't because he didn't do it when he had the chance. The only reason he has to be surprised to see Lilith instead of Adam would be to confuse someone else which definitely isn't the case since he shit off all monitoring capabilites and the only person around (Shinji) is too clueless about all this, too far away to see his surprised exression (which was facing away from him) and too busy fighting Unit 02 to notice.

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Next is his motivation. He says he wants humanity to live, great idea. So then why is he going along with any of Seele's plans? Why attack Terminal Dogma? Why not just spend his days listening to Mozart and banging Shinji? It's not like there's mind control implants or anything forcing him to act out his angel goals. He seems to be entirely in control of his actions. Is it just because he's suicidally depressed? In that case why not just kill himself? He's not a robot. Self terminating should be within his abilities (Rei was able to do it after all, albeit via heroic sacrafice). Does he have an obsessive need for Shinji to kill him? Doesn't seem like it since he only goes that root after noticing it's lilith and not adam in the terminal dogma. Which brings me to the gratest headscratcher of all. Why was he surprised by this and why was he even attacking the terminal in the first place? Seele told him Adam has been grafted to Gendo just moments before he started the attack. Unless he thinks Gendo is down there then he has no reason to go to the terminal dogma. Unless his desire is to fuse with lillith which it clearly isn't because he didn't do it when he had the chance. The only reason he has to be surprised to see Lilith instead of Adam would be to confuse someone else which definitely isn't the case since he shit off all monitoring capabilites and the only person around (Shinji) is too clueless about all this, too far away to see his surprised exression (which was facing away from him) and too busy fighting Unit 02 to notice.\\



*** But then why have Seele tell him that in the first place? Narrativly speaking. Have one character tell another character something that isn't even new information to the audience, only for the character to dismiss it completely while pretending he doesn't? That's just poor writing. Nothing about the following events would have changed if Seele didn't tell him where Adam was. If they want us to know Kaowru thinks Seele is lying then they need to show us that. Something like "They just want me to kill their enemy. But I can sense where Adam really is" or "So they weren't lying after all." Using the logic that he assumes the information given to him is faulty, you can rationalize pretty much any behavior ever. The character actually needs to show disbelief for it to be credible. And how do they even know Gendo literally had Adam inside him? Speculation? Dead Sea Scrolls?

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*** But then why have Seele tell him that in the first place? Narrativly Narratively speaking. Have one character tell another character something that isn't even new information to the audience, only for the character to dismiss it completely while pretending he doesn't? That's just poor writing. Nothing about the following events would have changed if Seele didn't tell him where Adam was. If they want us to know Kaowru thinks Seele is lying then they need to show us that. Something like "They just want me to kill their enemy. But I can sense where Adam really is" or "So they weren't lying after all." Using the logic that he assumes the information given to him is faulty, you can rationalize pretty much any behavior ever. The character actually needs to show disbelief for it to be credible. And how do they even know Gendo literally had Adam inside him? Speculation? Dead Sea Scrolls?Scrolls?
**** We're shown SEELE telling Kaworu, not to establish that Gendo is fused with Adam, but to establish that ''SEELE knows that'' Gendo has fused with Adam, because it helps provide context to the strategies they take later. They also wanted us to have a scene of SEELE talking to Kaworu to establish what their "working relationship" was actually ''like''. It made more sense to write one scene that serves both purposes that to cram two separate conversations in the screentime of one. Anyway, SEELE keeps tabs on NERV. They frequently find out about things NERV doesn't want them to know (i.e. the attack on the MAGI), and this is not new. This also happens with or without their main triple-agent, Kaji (i.e. Eva-01's ascension to godhood, which they're specifically angry that Kaji ''didn't'' tell them about), which implies they have multiple streams of reconnaissance going. It's a bit jarring but far from surprising that somebody conveyed them intelligence that gave them reason to suspect that Gendo had fused with Adam. Also, it's not like Kaworu is just randomly calling characters liars: he's told something by a source, and then what appears to be a more reliable source gives him other information, which he acts on. We aren't shown this happening because we don't need to see it to connect the dots. Kaworu can sense Seeds of Life; his senses conflict with SEELE's information; he trusts his own senses over SEELE because SEELE are shady. As soon as it becomes clear that Kaworu's an Angel, the necessary storytelling information is conveyed.
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