History Headscratchers / MetalGearSolid2SonsOfLiberty

8th Apr '16 3:47:15 PM Dragon101
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** Could be a bit of FridgeBrilliance {{Foreshadowing}} here, with a slice of FridgeHorror. We find out later that Raiden was a child soldier in Africa in the 80s AND that his entire job was a lie, to the point that he never even met the "Colonel" who was giving him orders, and his training regime was completely virtual. AND we know that he is actually an UnwittingPawn of the Patriots all along, a test subject for how they plan to control and manipulate humanity. What if he legitimately ''doesn't know'' who President Sears was because the Patriots controlled almost everything he learned (and, perhaps, recent immigrant to the US who didn't exactly have a normal childhood)?
8th Apr '16 3:33:44 PM Dragon101
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** A better question is why Stillman interpreted a Navy SEAL dropping mottoes from the Marines and the SAS as evidence that he isn't a SEAL. It's not a case of "even Stillman caught on to it" so much as "Stillman is making a BatDeduction". Heck, many SEALS are actually ''recruited'' from the ranks of the Marines, and both SEALS and Marines train and work with the SAS and each other on occasion. It would be more unusual if a Navy SEAL ''didn't'' know the mottoes of both organisations (especially if Stillman, a civilian, is fully informed), and it isn't all ''that'' weird that a SEAL would be quoting them.
8th Apr '16 3:18:39 PM Dragon101
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*** That doesn't really answer the question about Raiden not recognising Solidus as the former president. In-universe, Solidus/George Sears resigned after Shadow Moses, 4 years before the Big Shell incident. I don't think Raiden's short-term memory is that bad.
*** IIRC, Raiden always ''did'' remember his past, but tried to repress the memories and made it quite clear he didn't want to discuss the subject with Rose; he's able to recall with clarity what was done to him as a child soldier, but doesn't talk about it until forced. As for not recognizing Solidus as the former President, it could that he did but didn't say so out loud, but in flashbacks, Solidus was depicted without a beard as George Sears, and looked a ''lot'' different. It's not implausible that Raiden didn't make the connection between the Big Boss clone in an exoskeleton in front of him and vague recollections of yet another suit-wearing older politician, distinguished only by position, that he could have only seen on TV.
*** Raiden is himself also under the influence of Patriot nanomachines. In terms of what the 'Selection for Societal Sanity' plan was trying to do (which is still unclear in some ways), it seems to at least put the subject through the wringer pretty hard. Chances are the Patriot nanomachines could have been suppressing Raiden's bad memories of Solidus right up until the point that it would hit the hardest.
*** Plus, accelerated aging. Chances are, he looks several decades older.

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*** **** That doesn't really answer the question about Raiden not recognising Solidus as the former president. In-universe, Solidus/George Sears resigned after Shadow Moses, 4 years before the Big Shell incident. I don't think Raiden's short-term memory is that bad.
*** **** IIRC, Raiden always ''did'' remember his past, but tried to repress the memories and made it quite clear he didn't want to discuss the subject with Rose; he's able to recall with clarity what was done to him as a child soldier, but doesn't talk about it until forced. As for not recognizing Solidus as the former President, it could that he did but didn't say so out loud, but in flashbacks, Solidus was depicted without a beard as George Sears, and looked a ''lot'' different. It's not implausible that Raiden didn't make the connection between the Big Boss clone in an exoskeleton in front of him and vague recollections of yet another suit-wearing older politician, distinguished only by position, that he could have only seen on TV.
*** **** Raiden is himself also under the influence of Patriot nanomachines. In terms of what the 'Selection for Societal Sanity' plan was trying to do (which is still unclear in some ways), it seems to at least put the subject through the wringer pretty hard. Chances are the Patriot nanomachines could have been suppressing Raiden's bad memories of Solidus right up until the point that it would hit the hardest.
*** ***** Plus, accelerated aging. Chances are, he looks several decades older.



*** Could we get a citation on that? Because the game never says any of that, and supports my theory more. For example, all the wounds he got in 2 are still on his body in 4, but all of the new wounds he gets in 4 are healed up completely by the nanomachines. And Naomi herself says that he already had an impressive regen ability;

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*** **** Could we get a citation on that? Because the game never says any of that, and supports my theory more. For example, all the wounds he got in 2 are still on his body in 4, but all of the new wounds he gets in 4 are healed up completely by the nanomachines. And Naomi herself says that he already had an impressive regen ability;



*** Also his shadow attack was not technological in nature, Otacon suggested it was more hypnotic in nature. And he can sit on the water because he does have some degree of supernatural power. The nanomachines in 4 were just to keep his body from falling apart.
*** That quote from Naomi is highly ambiguous. It could either refer to Vamp having some innate healing factor, like Wolverine, ''or'' it could just refer to the natural healing abilities the human body possesses, which were amplified in Vamp's case by nanotechnology. Given the Guns of the Patriots' tendency to de-mystify the series, the latter explanation is more likely.

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*** **** Also his shadow attack was not technological in nature, Otacon suggested it was more hypnotic in nature. And he can sit on the water because he does have some degree of supernatural power. The nanomachines in 4 were just to keep his body from falling apart.
*** **** That quote from Naomi is highly ambiguous. It could either refer to Vamp having some innate healing factor, like Wolverine, ''or'' it could just refer to the natural healing abilities the human body possesses, which were amplified in Vamp's case by nanotechnology. Given the Guns of the Patriots' tendency to de-mystify the series, the latter explanation is more likely.



**** He knows whose arm it is. Firstly, the fact that they spent so much money on it in the first place (it's unlikely that any other arm would have cost that much; odds are, the reason they chose Liquid is precisely because he was a super soldier and that's the only type of arm that could come back to life), and Ocelot complains that it's like the arm is "having it's revenge" while in the presence of Solidus, so it is highly unlikely that Soldius has no clue. He just doesn't know that Liquid can actually ''possess'' him.



*** [[spoiler: Depends on the source material, unfortunately when it is explained we didn't get a time-line. The [=MGS4=] database and the MGS wiki go with the hypnotherapy thing, the [=MGS2=] comic goes with the Ocelot is part psychic thing, I feel the hypnotherapy deal goes better with Ocelot's series spanning xanatos gambit.]] Ocelot is the son of The Boss and The Sorrow. So he's the son of a spirit medium, making his body ripe for possessing. After the events of MGS 2 he did the hypnotherapy, but during the events of MGS 2 he was possessed. This isn't spoilered out because YouShouldKnowThisByNow.
*** That's only ever mentioned in the comic, if the [=MGS4=] database on PSN is word of god then it's hypnotherapy.
*** Technically the database also says he removed the arm after 2009 to "balance his psyche", but it's wrong on a million other things so it's hardly Word of God.
*** It's a bit of both actually, the actual Liquid is dead and gone, his ghost is still floating in REX's cockpit in [=MGS4=], Ocelot used hypnotherapy to create a new Liquid persona entirely in his own mind which "possessed" him every time snake was around. So yeah A Liquid is possessing Ocelot, just not THE Liquid. Ocelot has no direct control over his actions, but it's part of his huge master plan. The point was to fool the Patriots into thinking they we're fighting Liquid and not Ocelot so they couldn't predict his actions. So his Ocelot persona is completely at whim of his Liquid persona, but it's got nothing to do with him being the Sorrow's son.

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*** **** [[spoiler: Depends on the source material, unfortunately when it is explained we didn't get a time-line. The [=MGS4=] database and the MGS wiki go with the hypnotherapy thing, the [=MGS2=] comic goes with the Ocelot is part psychic thing, I feel the hypnotherapy deal goes better with Ocelot's series spanning xanatos gambit.]] Ocelot is the son of The Boss and The Sorrow. So he's the son of a spirit medium, making his body ripe for possessing. After the events of MGS 2 he did the hypnotherapy, but during the events of MGS 2 he was possessed. This isn't spoilered out because YouShouldKnowThisByNow.
*** ***** That's only ever mentioned in the comic, if the [=MGS4=] database on PSN is word of god then it's hypnotherapy.
*** ****** Technically the database also says he removed the arm after 2009 to "balance his psyche", but it's wrong on a million other things so it's hardly Word of God.
*** ***** It's a bit of both actually, the actual Liquid is dead and gone, his ghost is still floating in REX's cockpit in [=MGS4=], Ocelot used hypnotherapy to create a new Liquid persona entirely in his own mind which "possessed" him every time snake was around. So yeah A Liquid is possessing Ocelot, just not THE Liquid. Ocelot has no direct control over his actions, but it's part of his huge master plan. The point was to fool the Patriots into thinking they we're fighting Liquid and not Ocelot so they couldn't predict his actions. So his Ocelot persona is completely at whim of his Liquid persona, but it's got nothing to do with him being the Sorrow's son.



*** I imagine there was some amount of physical combat involved. My best guess is she clocked him in the head with the butt of her railgun when she got an opportunity.

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*** **** I imagine there was some amount of physical combat involved. My best guess is she clocked him in the head with the butt of her railgun when she got an opportunity.



*** He really didn't thought Raiden was Olga, he simply wasn't sure if was Olga or some effeminate guy that looked like her so he did the crotch grabbing test to find out for sure.
*** Yet another way to mock Raiden, perhaps?
*** Uh, you're all pretty way off. "I'm ready for my punishment!" he says, before going for crotch. Guy probably thought the hot, dominant russian babe was going to give him an... "interrogation".

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*** **** He really didn't thought Raiden was Olga, he simply wasn't sure if was Olga or some effeminate guy that looked like her so he did the crotch grabbing test to find out for sure.
*** **** Yet another way to mock Raiden, perhaps?
*** **** Uh, you're all pretty way off. "I'm ready for my punishment!" he says, before going for crotch. Guy probably thought the hot, dominant russian babe was going to give him an... "interrogation".



*** [[spoiler:"The last of the original members died in the 1930's." -The Boss. The Philosophers weren't founded for WWII. They died closer to 80 years before the game, though.]]

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*** **** [[spoiler:"The last of the original members died in the 1930's." -The Boss. The Philosophers weren't founded for WWII. They died closer to 80 years before the game, though.]]



*** It was the AI all along, it has Campbell on the nametag because Raiden thought he was the same Colonel as the one from Shadow Mosses. The Patriots always intended it to be a replica of Shadow Mosses, Snake's appearance didn't really change anything.

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*** **** It was the AI all along, it has Campbell on the nametag because Raiden thought he was the same Colonel as the one from Shadow Mosses. The Patriots always intended it to be a replica of Shadow Mosses, Snake's appearance didn't really change anything.



*** Let me think of a way to make this workable... okay, what about if what they are scared of is that someone will reverse-engineer the RAY's advances (for example, it lacks a radome as its only input device, which means a weakness is gone) and fit them into a new REX design, or some other new walking robot which IS capable of launching nukes? That would make true Metal Gears harder to take down from that point on.
*** I believe the real question here is; why did they build a giant robot to hunt other giant robots? If they can deploy a giant robot, can't they just deploy conventional munitions against REX knockoffs? In any case it wouldn't have been revealed ''to the public'' if RAY was used against a REX knockoff; your average elimination mission wouldn't really have the assets used advertised. The point of the mission was to raise public awareness by showing off the measures the US government were taking against Metal Gear proliferation, and thus gain support for anti-Metal Gear efforts.
*** Well for one, remember that the mission in the Tanker level was not to destroy Metal Gear - it was to take photographs so that the public was aware of the kind of weapons the military were using. Secondly, from a formal perspective, the Tanker mission was necessary to frustrate players even more. They thought they were getting a new game starring Solid Snake (the cover art points to this, as does the title screen). Then, throughout the Tanker, Snake fails to impress. His new 'stealth moves' like throwing bodies off the boat eventually frame him, the only cardboard box he gets is a sopping wet mess, the only boss is a pregnant woman with a pistol rather a cool FOXHOUND-like boss with special powers, there's a long shoot-out section where stealth goes out the window, Snake can sneeze and give himself away and eventually the mission is a failure. Then, we're introduced to Raiden who wants to be Solid Snake and that fails too - the whole thing is just to frustrate the player until Raiden 'awakens' and gains the sword.

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*** **** Let me think of a way to make this workable... okay, what about if what they are scared of is that someone will reverse-engineer the RAY's advances (for example, it lacks a radome as its only input device, which means a weakness is gone) and fit them into a new REX design, or some other new walking robot which IS capable of launching nukes? That would make true Metal Gears harder to take down from that point on.
*** ***** I believe the real question here is; why did they build a giant robot to hunt other giant robots? If they can deploy a giant robot, can't they just deploy conventional munitions against REX knockoffs? In any case it wouldn't have been revealed ''to the public'' if RAY was used against a REX knockoff; your average elimination mission wouldn't really have the assets used advertised. The point of the mission was to raise public awareness by showing off the measures the US government were taking against Metal Gear proliferation, and thus gain support for anti-Metal Gear efforts.
*** ***** Well for one, remember that the mission in the Tanker level was not to destroy Metal Gear - it was to take photographs so that the public was aware of the kind of weapons the military were using. Secondly, from a formal perspective, the Tanker mission was necessary to frustrate players even more. They thought they were getting a new game starring Solid Snake (the cover art points to this, as does the title screen). Then, throughout the Tanker, Snake fails to impress. His new 'stealth moves' like throwing bodies off the boat eventually frame him, the only cardboard box he gets is a sopping wet mess, the only boss is a pregnant woman with a pistol rather a cool FOXHOUND-like boss with special powers, there's a long shoot-out section where stealth goes out the window, Snake can sneeze and give himself away and eventually the mission is a failure. Then, we're introduced to Raiden who wants to be Solid Snake and that fails too - the whole thing is just to frustrate the player until Raiden 'awakens' and gains the sword.
8th Apr '16 3:09:02 PM Dragon101
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** He explicitly retired and stopped teaching after he bomb he failed to defuse. He probably became a recluse afterwards. But yeah, would like to know how exactly he pulled some of this off.
9th Nov '15 6:50:36 PM PolarPhantom
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** Gurlukovich's crew didn't care about being seen by civilians. They were prepared to sink the Tanker if needs be and Sergei himself talks about Ocelot piloting Ray, implying they were going to ride Ray out fairly publicly if needed. As for the mismatched colours on the Big Shell, it's probably to help the player see them.



* At the end, when Solidis is falling off the federal hall, he says something but it's muted. It's hard to even notice he's talking because half his lips are obscured by his armor but he's definitely talking. It's much easier to see if you replace him with someone else in theater mode. So does anyone know what he says? Is looks detailed enough to lip read though it's probably syncs to Japanese.
* If President Johnson was just a figurehead, why did he have the real activation code for Arsenal Gear?

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** It may have been foreshadowing Vamp's survival, suggesting he left them there while recovering. He may also have reported his defeat so Olga would have known, hence her contacting you if you get hit.
* At the end, when Solidis Solidus is falling off the federal hall, he says something but it's muted. It's hard to even notice he's talking because half his lips are obscured by his armor but he's definitely talking. It's much easier to see if you replace him with someone else in theater mode. So does anyone know what he says? Is looks detailed enough to lip read though it's probably syncs to Japanese.
* If President Johnson was just a figurehead, why did he have the real activation code for Arsenal Gear?Gear?
** To keep up appearances, maybe?
11th Sep '15 11:37:58 AM bassforte123
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** My money's on him just leaving it home for that mission, since he intended to be stealthy, not go in guns ablazin'. Besides, VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4 shows that Meryl survived, so her ending is canon.

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** My money's on him just leaving it home for that mission, since he intended to be stealthy, not go in guns ablazin'. Besides, VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4 shows that Meryl survived, so her ending is canon. Keep in mind that Ocelot's invasion was something they didn't expect. If the mission ran as they intended then snake would have at most fired a handful of tranq darts and nothing else since all he needed was to take some photographs of RAY. Since he even broke the Optical Camo device, it's easy to assume that he saw no point in bringing the headband to a mission he wouldn't use it on and could possibly drop it in the ocean some how.
31st Aug '15 6:28:04 PM NeutralPerson
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* This really could go for the first game as well, but the information that really makes it a headscratcher is given here, so I'm putting it here. Otacon and Emma talk about their family's dark history, starting with Otacon's grandfather working on the Manhattan Project. However, even here, the weight given to it implies they know about Otacon's father, Huey, and his work alongside Big Boss and MSF. However, this rips the entire plot asunder. Firstly, if they knew about Huey's work, there's no way Otacon would have been involved in Shadow Moses. Secondly, the moment the two of them started talking about their families, both of them would have had a collective "What the hell?" moment when they realized destiny basically forced them together. Of course, if Huey was extremely secretive about his past with Otacon, that also means he never left any notes, a journal or diary, and was somehow able to deflect questions from his genius son with the exact same interests as him. Whis is highly unlikely. And that's completely avoiding the theory that Strangelove was his mother, because then there'd be even more issues. Like, Otacon asking at one point "Hey dad, how did you and mom meet anyways?"

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* This really could go for the first game as well, but the information that really makes it a headscratcher is given here, so I'm putting it here. Otacon and Emma talk about their family's dark history, starting with Otacon's grandfather working on the Manhattan Project. However, even here, the weight given to it implies they know about Otacon's father, Huey, and his work alongside Big Boss and MSF. However, this rips the entire plot asunder. Firstly, if they knew about Huey's work, there's no way Otacon would have been involved in Shadow Moses. Secondly, the moment the two of them started talking about their families, both of them would have had a collective "What the hell?" moment when they realized destiny basically forced them together. Of course, if Huey was extremely secretive about his past with Otacon, that also means he never left any notes, a journal or diary, and was somehow able to deflect questions from his genius son with the exact same interests as him. Whis him, which is highly unlikely. And that's completely avoiding the theory that Strangelove was his mother, because then there'd be even more issues. Like, Otacon asking at one point "Hey dad, how did you and mom meet anyways?"anyways?"
** It may be unlikely that Huey could avoid having his son Hal discover his past, but it's not impossible. It's not like Huey couldn't have fabricated a story or two so that Hal would not repeat the same mistakes he did. Maybe Huey would know how his son would think and took several steps to avoid issues. Of course, it didn't matter, thanks to the creation of the "Patriots" and those behind it. As for the mother of Hal, well... we will find out in Phantom Pain.
20th Jun '15 3:38:17 AM KingStatham
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** He's part of a different batch of clones, as detailed in - ''I think'' - one of the numerous expository scenes from the fourth game.
24th Apr '15 9:59:42 AM DataSnake
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* At the end, when Solidis is falling off the federal hall, he says something but it's muted. It's hard to even notice he's talking because half his lips are obscured by his armor but he's definitely talking. It's much easier to see if you replace him with someone else in theater mode. So does anyone know what he says? Is looks detailed enough to lip read though it's probably syncs to Japanese.

to:

* At the end, when Solidis is falling off the federal hall, he says something but it's muted. It's hard to even notice he's talking because half his lips are obscured by his armor but he's definitely talking. It's much easier to see if you replace him with someone else in theater mode. So does anyone know what he says? Is looks detailed enough to lip read though it's probably syncs to Japanese.Japanese.
* If President Johnson was just a figurehead, why did he have the real activation code for Arsenal Gear?
9th Apr '15 5:33:15 PM cillianflood
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* Okay, so Snake and Otacon notice that the Marines aboard The Discovery are disguised as civilian crewmen so as not to draw unwanted attention from people on land...but Colonel Gurlukovich's men are not only dressed in bright brown/orange uniforms, but carrying military gear on (the mostly blue-colored) deck where civilians could potentially see them. This is even more baffling during the plant chapter, where we ''do'' see mercenaries in blue uniforms...on the very orange exterior locations on The Big Shell, yet the mostly blue-colored interior has the guards with brown camo. What's the purpose of camo again, exactly?

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* Okay, so Snake and Otacon notice that the Marines aboard The Discovery are disguised as civilian crewmen so as not to draw unwanted attention from people on land...but Colonel Gurlukovich's men are not only dressed in bright brown/orange uniforms, but carrying military gear on (the mostly blue-colored) deck where civilians could potentially see them. This is even more baffling during the plant chapter, where we ''do'' see mercenaries in blue uniforms...on the very orange exterior locations on The Big Shell, yet the mostly blue-colored interior has the guards with brown camo. What's the purpose of camo again, exactly?exactly?
*When you rescue Emma you go from Vamp's boss room, through a flooded corridor and back again. When you get back to Vamp's boss room there're claymore on the left side of the room, the indirect way across. Who put them there? Olga texts you about them if you get hit, so did she put them there? If so why? I just can't imagine why anyone would swim to that really hard to reach room, place a few claymores in a section you probably wouldn't go to, and get out before Raiden returns without engaging him. Even from a game design stand point it makes little sense.
*At the end, when Solidis is falling off the federal hall, he says something but it's muted. It's hard to even notice he's talking because half his lips are obscured by his armor but he's definitely talking. It's much easier to see if you replace him with someone else in theater mode. So does anyone know what he says? Is looks detailed enough to lip read though it's probably syncs to Japanese.
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