History Headscratchers / LordOfTheFlies

13th May '17 8:25:19 PM maxwellsilver
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** This troper's 10th grade English class concluded that the ending's blatant incongruity was a TakeThat to the numerous "bunch of kids having fun on a deserted island" stories that the book itself was meant to [[{{Deconstruction}} deconstruct]].

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** This troper's My 10th grade English class concluded that the ending's blatant incongruity was a TakeThat to the numerous "bunch of kids having fun on a deserted island" stories that the book itself was meant to [[{{Deconstruction}} deconstruct]].



** ''This'' troper's 10th grade English teacher gave broad hints to get his class to reach the conclusion that the rescue by a ''military'' ship was Golding saying that adults were no less savage than the children had become on the island.
** Because if anything, this may just have been a supervised military simulation similar to battle royale. a test to sort out the soldiers from the weaklings. People like Jack will be sent to the frontlines while people like Ralph needs another training regiment.
** i've always figured that it's too show how quickly the boys become ashamed of there actions as soon as someone is watching. Notice how Jack won't identify himself as the one in charge despite having recently sat on a throne.

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** ''This'' troper's My 10th grade English teacher gave broad hints to get his class to reach the conclusion that the rescue by a ''military'' ship was Golding saying that adults were no less savage than the children had become on the island.
** Because if anything, this may just have been a supervised military simulation similar to battle royale. a ''Film/BattleRoyale''. A test to sort out the soldiers from the weaklings. People like Jack will be sent to the frontlines while people like Ralph needs another training regiment.
regimen.
** i've I've always figured that it's too show how quickly the boys become ashamed of there their actions as soon as someone is watching. Notice how Jack won't identify himself as the one in charge despite having recently sat on a throne.



** This troper was always under the impression that it's a social commentary. The boys on the island split into two groups. Ralph and his followers believe and practice a form of law-based government, while Jack and his gang are perfectly content to indulge the more violent sides of their natures. Ralph and company have the hope (perhaps unspoken; it's been years since I read the book) that this is a temporary situation, that in an adult world it's the rule of law that is triumphant, and that the barbarism of Jack's faction is not tolerated. Then they get bailed out by the Navy, and it becomes apparent that while Ralph's side seems to support the way the world ''ought'' to be run, Jack's way (war, violence, etc.) is typically how things end up after all. This point would be difficult to make with quite the same impact unless the rescue occurred.

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** This troper Me was always under the impression that it's a social commentary. The boys on the island split into two groups. Ralph and his followers believe and practice a form of law-based government, while Jack and his gang are perfectly content to indulge the more violent sides of their natures. Ralph and company have the hope (perhaps unspoken; it's been years since I read the book) that this is a temporary situation, that in an adult world it's the rule of law that is triumphant, and that the barbarism of Jack's faction is not tolerated. Then they get bailed out by the Navy, and it becomes apparent that while Ralph's side seems to support the way the world ''ought'' to be run, Jack's way (war, violence, etc.) is typically how things end up after all. This point would be difficult to make with quite the same impact unless the rescue occurred.



** I always saw the naval officer's appearence as a stunning turnabout from the air of the novel up till that point. As soon as civilization returns in the form of an adult we see them stop being the ruthless savages that they seem to be and instead we finally see what they really are: iresponsible little boys in need of a firm guiding hand.

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** I always saw the naval officer's appearence appearance as a stunning turnabout from the air of the novel up till that point. As soon as civilization returns in the form of an adult we see them stop being the ruthless savages that they seem to be and instead we finally see what they really are: iresponsible irresponsible little boys in need of a firm guiding hand.



** Maybe I'm getting confused with the Film of the Book, but they did ''set fire to the island'' to drive Jack out of the forest. As such, that was one hell of a signal fire - maybe the naval officer thought it was a sinking ship/crashed plane and went to investigate - ironically, the fire meant to kill Jack ends up saving him.
*** You're confusing Jack and Ralph. Ralph hides in a thicket and Jack and co attempt to smoke him out. In doing so they set fire to the whole island.

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** Maybe I'm getting confused with the Film of the Book, but they did ''set fire to the island'' to drive Jack Ralph out of the forest. As such, that was one hell of a signal fire - maybe the naval officer thought it was a sinking ship/crashed plane and went to investigate - ironically, the fire meant to kill Jack Ralph ends up saving him.
*** You're confusing Jack and Ralph. Ralph hides in a thicket and Jack and co attempt to smoke him out. In doing so they set fire to the whole island.
him.



** Not only does the appearance of the naval officer count as a DeusExMachina that deconstructs the "island adventure" endings, but it also has a few other effects. For starters, the arrival immediately highlights the contrast between Jack's tribe and the society they left -- and how far the boys have regressed (one can't even remember his own name!). Then we have the fact that modern militaries are some of the most disciplined, well-organized(in short, the most "civilized") institutions in the world -- nothing could be further from the tribe. And yet, that "civilized" military is doing exactly what Jack is doing -- going out and killing people. Not only that, but remember that in the early parts of the book, the boys talk about how adults would just be wiser and smarter than they are. The fact that there is a war, and that the supposedly better adults are no better than the boys, demonstrates that even modern society might be little more than a more complex conch shell.

* Why didn't Simon take anything off the parachutist's body? Surely, there could've been SOME equipment on that corpse he could have recovered (i.e. a flare gun, a first aid kit, a gun, a flashlight). And what did he go for? A piece of fabric off the parachute! Also, [[FacePalm why the hell didn't he detach the parachute from the pilot]]? What's the point of untangling the parachute if you're not even going to take it off the poor soul's body?

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** Not only does the appearance of the naval officer count as a DeusExMachina that deconstructs the "island adventure" endings, but it also has a few other effects. For starters, the arrival immediately highlights the contrast between Jack's tribe and the society they left -- and how far the boys have regressed (one can't even remember his own name!). Then we have the fact that modern militaries are some of the most disciplined, well-organized(in well-organized (in short, the most "civilized") institutions in the world -- nothing could be further from the tribe. And yet, that "civilized" military is doing exactly what Jack is doing -- going out and killing people. Not only that, but remember that in the early parts of the book, the boys talk about how adults would just be wiser and smarter than they are. The fact that there is a war, and that the supposedly better adults are no better than the boys, demonstrates that even modern society might be little more than a more complex conch shell.

* Why didn't Simon take anything off the parachutist's body? Surely, there could've been SOME equipment on that corpse he could have recovered (i.e. a flare gun, a first aid kit, a gun, a flashlight). And what did he go for? A piece of fabric off the parachute! Also, [[FacePalm why the hell didn't he detach the parachute from the pilot]]? pilot? What's the point of untangling the parachute if you're not even going to take it off the poor soul's body?



** Because you don't rob a corpse. Unless you're a trauma surgeon, a homicide detective or a hardened killer, even touching a dead body goes against everything in you. A british schoolboy isn't going to be desensitized enough to rifle through a dead man's pockets.
*** Sure, just like how he ''[[SarcasmMode wasn't]]'' desensitized enough to think that a pig's head on a stick was telling him that it was {{Satan}}.

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** Because you don't rob a corpse. Unless you're a trauma surgeon, a homicide detective or a hardened killer, even touching a dead body goes against everything in you. A british British schoolboy isn't going to be desensitized enough to rifle through a dead man's pockets.
*** Sure, just like how he ''[[SarcasmMode wasn't]]'' ''wasn't'' desensitized enough to think that a pig's head on a stick was telling him that it was {{Satan}}.






** The fact that he says [[StockBritishPhrases "Jolly good show"]] tells me he's British.
* I may just be [[EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory reading too much into this]], but Samneric have to be symbolic for ''something''. They're twins, they finish each other's sentences, they share the same name and are always thought of as one person, and they are the only ones besides Piggy to stay loyal to Ralph. What are they meant to represent? Any ideas?

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** The fact that he says [[StockBritishPhrases "Jolly good show"]] show" tells me he's British.
British.

* I may just be [[EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory reading too much into this]], this, but Samneric have to be symbolic for ''something''. They're twins, they finish each other's sentences, they share the same name and are always thought of as one person, and they are the only ones besides Piggy to stay loyal to Ralph. What are they meant to represent? Any ideas?



** It's possible that Samneric represent some sort of balance; [[CaptainObvious there are two of them]], and they are very close-- this closeness could have given both of them something to check themselves against, representing the role of family and duality in stability. Or maybe [[EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory I'm reading too much into this.]]
** I was told Sam and Eric represent conformity and how people eventually are swayed into the masses no matter how hard they try. The more and more mindless they become in the book, the more and more their names are crushed together. Eventually, their sense of belonging and wishes to remain individuals with their own decisions are override and they join Jack, and thus, they become Samneric. Though they were becoming Sam 'n' Eric when they were tempted by Jack and the like.

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** It's possible that Samneric represent some sort of balance; [[CaptainObvious there are two of them]], them, and they are very close-- this closeness could have given both of them something to check themselves against, representing the role of family and duality in stability. Or maybe [[EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory I'm reading too much into this.]]
this.
** I was told Sam and Eric represent conformity and how people eventually are swayed into the masses no matter how hard they try. The more and more mindless they become in the book, the more and more their names are crushed together. Eventually, their sense of belonging and wishes to remain individuals with their own decisions are override and they join Jack, and thus, they become Samneric. Though they were becoming Sam 'n' Eric Samneric when they were tempted by Jack and the like.



** This troper saw Samneric as just another source of frustration for Ralph. They are a great help to him, even after they join the tribe, but they could be twice as useful if only they could act alone.

* The Lord of the Flies itself. Why is it that the Pig's head on the stick was the icon of "the Beast", but not the dead parachutist that everybody though ''was'' the Beast? I mean, this was the offering to the Beast, not its shrine! A dead parachutist would invoke a "Lord of the Flies" image, since if you think about it, a fighter pilot with an open parachute potentially looks like a giant fly-like monster, and thus, the Lord of the Flies, which is of course, {{Satan}}, and "the Beast" that everyone fears. Maybe I'm a bit LiteralMinded on this, but I think it would have been much more symbolic if Simon's confrontation with the "Lord of the Flies" occurred with the dead parachutist instead of the pig's head. Not to mention, it would make [[http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QIkLBkAOusU/S7gLtoYwQRI/AAAAAAAABhs/57xaF6mh7RE/s1600/734494.jpg this cover of the book]] seem a little less...[[CoversAlwaysLie misleading]].
** Well, that would undermine Golding's point that the perceived "beast" was actually harmless. The pig's head was actually placed there by the hunters; the parachuter just ended up landing on the island and the kids turned it into a beast. Golding was trying to say that ''we'' are [[EnemyWithin the beast]], so making an innocent parachuter the stand-in for Satan wouldn't work quite as well.

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** This troper Me saw Samneric as just another source of frustration for Ralph. They are a great help to him, even after they join the tribe, but they could be twice as useful if only they could act alone.

* The Lord of the Flies itself. Why is it that the Pig's head on the stick was the icon of "the Beast", but not the dead parachutist that everybody though thought ''was'' the Beast? I mean, this was the offering to the Beast, not its shrine! A dead parachutist would invoke a "Lord of the Flies" image, since if you think about it, a fighter pilot with an open parachute potentially looks like a giant fly-like monster, and thus, the Lord of the Flies, which is of course, {{Satan}}, and "the Beast" that everyone fears. Maybe I'm a bit LiteralMinded on this, but I think it would have been much more symbolic if Simon's confrontation with the "Lord of the Flies" occurred with the dead parachutist instead of the pig's head. Not to mention, it would make [[http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QIkLBkAOusU/S7gLtoYwQRI/AAAAAAAABhs/57xaF6mh7RE/s1600/734494.jpg this cover of the book]] seem a little less...[[CoversAlwaysLie misleading]].
misleading.
** Well, that would undermine Golding's point that the perceived "beast" was actually harmless. The pig's head was actually placed there by the hunters; the parachuter just ended up landing on the island and the kids turned it into a beast. Golding was trying to say that ''we'' are [[EnemyWithin the beast]], beast, so making an innocent parachuter the stand-in for Satan wouldn't work quite as well.






*** Unless he was the only one smart enough to [[FridgeHorror survive the initial plane crash]]. There could have been all sorts of hazards that you could miss with poor vision, or not being able to see out of the corner of one's eye. Piggy was smart enough to take things very slowly in dangerous situations.

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*** Unless he was the only one smart enough to [[FridgeHorror survive the initial plane crash]].crash. There could have been all sorts of hazards that you could miss with poor vision, or not being able to see out of the corner of one's eye. Piggy was smart enough to take things very slowly in dangerous situations.



* Before the dead paratrooper falls on to the island, there is a beast mentioned several times. I know that the point of the beast was to say that the boys were the beast all along, but what was that original beast that the first littlun cried about going through the creepers. And what happened to that little boy? Did he die in the fire?

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* Before the dead paratrooper falls on to onto the island, there is a beast mentioned several times. I know that the point of the beast was to say that the boys were the beast all along, but what was that original beast that the first littlun cried about going through the creepers. And what happened to that little boy? Did he die in the fire?



** The first littlun's beast is not really identified, it's the second one they believe to have been Simon. Golding's book by way of the Lord of the Flies scene attempts to just wrap it all up as in the boy's imagination, but in the same way never definitely answers the question, so with no factual answer go ahead and assume the real beast ate up the littlun that never appeared again after the fire, or that he imagined it and died in the fire. Whichever strikes your fancy.

to:

** The first littlun's beast is not really identified, it's the second one they believe to have been Simon. Golding's book by way of the Lord of the Flies scene attempts to just wrap it all up as in the boy's imagination, but in the same way never definitely answers the question, so with no factual answer go ahead and assume the real beast ate up the littlun that never appeared again after the fire, or that he imagined it and died in the fire. Whichever strikes your fancy.fancy.
----
15th Feb '17 5:53:42 PM Mr.Phorcys
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to:

** Not only does the appearance of the naval officer count as a DeusExMachina that deconstructs the "island adventure" endings, but it also has a few other effects. For starters, the arrival immediately highlights the contrast between Jack's tribe and the society they left -- and how far the boys have regressed (one can't even remember his own name!). Then we have the fact that modern militaries are some of the most disciplined, well-organized(in short, the most "civilized") institutions in the world -- nothing could be further from the tribe. And yet, that "civilized" military is doing exactly what Jack is doing -- going out and killing people. Not only that, but remember that in the early parts of the book, the boys talk about how adults would just be wiser and smarter than they are. The fact that there is a war, and that the supposedly better adults are no better than the boys, demonstrates that even modern society might be little more than a more complex conch shell.
15th Feb '17 5:19:20 PM Mr.Phorcys
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** And the pig represents more than just an offering to "the Beast" -- it represents just how far gone Jack and the tribe is, and the "Lord of the Flies" is also the decay of the society Piggy tried to create. The offering is also made ''irrationally'', to satiate fears of the Beast and acts as a symbol of the tribe, just as the conch is the symbol of Piggy's society.

to:

** And the pig represents is more than just an offering to "the Beast" -- it represents just how far gone Jack and the his tribe is, are, and the "Lord of the Flies" is also by extension the decay of the society Piggy tried to create. The offering is also made ''irrationally'', to satiate fears of the Beast and acts act as a symbol of the tribe, just as the conch is the symbol of Piggy's society.society. If the dead paratrooper were the "Lord of the Flies", it would have been a more rational threat -- something everyone could both see and fear, as opposed to the unfounded idea of a spooky monster -- and one of the driving themes of the story is that an irrational fear can lead to people descending to acts they never would do under normal circumstances. Thus the symbol of how uncivilized we can be, the pig's head, is the "Lord of the Flies".
30th Sep '16 5:12:30 AM Mr.Phorcys
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Added DiffLines:

*** Because "the Beast" had always been mostly unfounded, an embodiment of the primal fear that there is ''something else'' out there. It was a vaguely existential threat, one that "society" couldn't immediately clear away, thus allowing for the rise of Jack and the tribe. But by the time Simon found the parachutist, the nature of "the Beast" didn't matter anymore -- the greatest threat to the boys was now their slide into barbarism and the decay of their society as a response ''to'' "the Beast", as represented by the pig's head -- and the Lord of the Flies says that even if Simon goes back to the camp, he will still be there.
30th Sep '16 4:12:18 AM Mr.Phorcys
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Added DiffLines:

** And the pig represents more than just an offering to "the Beast" -- it represents just how far gone Jack and the tribe is, and the "Lord of the Flies" is also the decay of the society Piggy tried to create. The offering is also made ''irrationally'', to satiate fears of the Beast and acts as a symbol of the tribe, just as the conch is the symbol of Piggy's society.
17th Sep '16 3:09:51 PM aidansean
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to:

** Given that a plane crashed on the island, and then a second plane got shot down over it, it's not all that surprising. They're clearly on the periphery of a war zone and the island-wide fire was a big distress signal.
5th Jun '16 11:28:21 PM Statzkeen
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*** Well it wouldn't make much sense for the story to continue once the ship arrives, would it?
6th May '16 6:42:19 AM aye_amber
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*** Nuts to you guys. This isn't ''StandByMe''. If I was stranded on an island for God-knows-how-long, I'd do ''anything'' that could potentially get me and everyone else off the island as quickly as possible. And if it meant looting a dead guy just to acquire something that could better prove that everyone's paranoid fears about "The Beast" was a load of bullcrap so that they could focus more on getting off the island, I'd freaking do it.

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*** Nuts to you guys. This isn't ''StandByMe''.''Film/StandByMe''. If I was stranded on an island for God-knows-how-long, I'd do ''anything'' that could potentially get me and everyone else off the island as quickly as possible. And if it meant looting a dead guy just to acquire something that could better prove that everyone's paranoid fears about "The Beast" was a load of bullcrap so that they could focus more on getting off the island, I'd freaking do it.
21st Jan '16 3:24:20 PM shamblingdead2
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Added DiffLines:

*** Seconded here. "Who saves them? A man with a gun." They're going back to a "civilization" that is just as violent and chaotic and just about as ''uncivilized'' as the situation on the island. This book came out amidst the bleak cynicism of the post-WWII, Cold War era, and it shows the general morale of the time.
9th Oct '14 1:53:04 PM Homemaderat
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** The little boy's "beast" was actually just him waking up from a really bad nightmare, stumbling around and coming across Simon, who was, to quote Ralph, "mucking around in the dark." It's just meant to show how ingrained our primordial fears are, and to kick-start the notion of a beast. And yes, Piggy makes a point of mentioning that the boy is never seen again after the fire, implying that he died in it.

to:

** The little boy's "beast" was actually just him waking up from a really bad nightmare, stumbling around and coming across Simon, who was, to quote Ralph, "mucking around in the dark." It's just meant to show how ingrained our primordial fears are, and to kick-start the notion of a beast. And yes, Piggy makes a point of mentioning that the boy is never seen again after the fire, implying that he died in it.it.
** The first littlun's beast is not really identified, it's the second one they believe to have been Simon. Golding's book by way of the Lord of the Flies scene attempts to just wrap it all up as in the boy's imagination, but in the same way never definitely answers the question, so with no factual answer go ahead and assume the real beast ate up the littlun that never appeared again after the fire, or that he imagined it and died in the fire. Whichever strikes your fancy.
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