History Headscratchers / LifeOfPi

** The hatred of the hyena seemed to stem from the fact that it killed the zebra and orangutang. Pi seemed to see all of the animals as allies, so he basically saw the hyena as a traitor. Richard Parker killed the hyena after that, so Pi seemed to make some connection that the tiger carried out justice for the hyena's "crime" (yes they're animals, but it's through the perspective of a scared teenage boy). If one took the second story to be true, the hyena [[spoiler:represented the cook, who was pragmatic to the point of being terrifying, and ended up killing Pi's mother. Richard Parker represented Pi, and so his killing of the cook was, again, justice.]]

* How does the second story make sense if [[spoiler: the cook is present in both versions]]? Surely Pi could have just omitted him in the first story.

*** But that's the movie. In the book, there's a scene in which [[spoiler: the ship's cook appears while Pi is blinded (due to health complications brought about by the wonderful place that is a boat in the middle of the tropical Pacific) and attempts to eat him, only to be eaten by Richard Parker]]. If Pi was trying to keep the story ambiguous, surely he'd just remove that part.

* If the pools of water [[spoiler: in the carnivorous island]] are connected to the ocean, how can they possibly be freshwater? (Even a river flowing into the ocean has its own flow functioning to keep the salt out, and the estuaries are usually a mixture.) And if they aren't connected, how does [[spoiler: a fresh assortment of fish get in there every night to be dissolved and absorbed?]]

* How on earth did [[spoiler: a human tooth end up ''in the middle of a fruit''? Does the carnivorous island function like a clam, forming "pearls" around objects it can't dissolve? ''Why''?]]

*** If you figure that the [[spoiler: Cook's version of the story is the real story]], you could take it that the tooth was really Pi's decayed tooth falling out in a piece of food. It doesn't make it better Pi's been at sea for awhile, so...

** Context need also be remembered here. Book and movie take you to the same argument but the way they present this causes conflict
*** Book Pi spends time arguing with the officials as to what they see as problems with his story. He takes a few moments and begins the second story, all this seems hostile. Afterwards he asks them "which of the two were the better story". They say the Tiger and he says so it goes with God
*** Movie Pi answers quickly to the second story while crying and instead asks the question to the writer

** Pi does admonish the agnostics a lot more than to recall people mentioning. As they miss the better story. A line said more than once. With this in mind the message is really to be interpreted that you need to have the guts to believe than keep pressing on doubts like he thinks an agnostic does. He tells the weird wild story of his adventure that takes a way of faith to accept you might say. But the investigators treat him like an agnostic (to Pi) treats religion. Doubting and not being willing to accept it. Pi's "and so it goes with god" line than simply becomes more along the lines of you can't appreciate an idea like a religion if you act that way. Not really about "go with the better story" or "God's a better story even though it's not what's true" as mentioned above. Under this lens religion is merely a tool, and this story could make you believe in anything, God just being one thing that could be applied. Making it actually a philosophy lesson than a religious one.

** To be honest, that line has NEVER been interrupted that way before. It's been seen that Pi saying, “So it is with God”, not as a way of comparing the stories to belief in God, but simply as an acceptance of the Writers choice of belief. Pi asked him what story he’d rather take, and the Writer said the tiger. Now think of it in reverse. Say that the Writer decided to take the story WITHOUT the tiger. What would Pi say then? Would he say, “So it is without God”? Perhaps not. Pi would make the same statement regardless of which story you choose. Remember, Pi that believes in God himself so to him, everything goes with God. That line is basically just Pi’s own theological way of saying, “And that’s way the cookie crumbles”.

*** It should be noted that agnostisim isn't as straightforward as Pi puts it.

*** The difference here is in the audience. To the investigators they had spent time establishing they weren't believing the first story at face value, so after making them admit they liked the tiger better even though the contest added "even though we don't believe it", would have you thinking he means God is the better story even if it's not what he believes is true. The writer has none of those convictions, it's just pure taste, which would make the line sound more like "God's the better story go with it."

** Saying that something is "in the hands of God" is usually meant to mean that it's simply in the hands of a power or force beyond human control or understanding, regardless of whether or not one literally believes in God. Pi is simply saying that while the insurance agents may be skeptical of the story involving animals and more inclined to believe the story with humans, ultimately they can't prove or disprove either way that one is the truth and the other a fiction, so whichever story they choose to accept must be taken on faith alone. Pi has given them two stories, but ultimately which of them is or isn't the truth is utterly indeterminable by anyone other than Pi and God. So since there's no earthly way they can prove the truth of either story, they might as well go with the one they would rather have happened, as indeed they do. As such, since Pi won't and ultimately can't confirm it either way (since even if he ''did'' outright say "this story is the truth", they still only have his word and their faith that it is), their choice and whether or not it reflects the truth is ultimately "with God" (i.e. is unknowable).

** Saying that something is "in the hands of God" is usually meant to mean that it's simply in the hands of a power or force beyond human control or understanding, regardless of whether or not one literally believes in God. Pi is simply saying that while the insurance agents may be skeptical of the story involving animals and more inclined to believe the story with humans, ultimately they can't prove or disprove either way that one is the truth and the other a fiction, so whichever story they choose to accept must be taken on faith alone. Pi has given them two stories, but ultimately which of them is or isn't the truth is utterly indeterminable by anyone other than Pi and God. So since there's no earthly way they can prove the truth of either story, they might as well go with the one they would rather have happened, as indeed they do. As such, their choice, and whether or not it reflects the truth, is ultimately "with God".

** Saying that something is "in the hands of God" is usually meant to mean that it's simply in the hands of a power or force beyond human control or understanding. Pi is simply saying that while the insurance agents may be skeptical of the story about animals, ultimately they can't prove or disprove either way that it's the truth. Pi has given them two stories, but ultimately which of them is or isn't the truth is "with God", so since they can't prove either way which one is true or not, they might as well go with the one they prefer.

** Troper is going off of the movie, but the hatred of the hyena seemed to stem from the fact that it killed the zebra and orangutang. Pi seemed to see all of the animals as allies, so he basically saw the hyena as a traitor. Richard Parker killed the hyena after that, so Pi seemed to make some connection that the tiger carried out justice for the hyena's "crime" (yes they're animals, but it's through the perspective of a scared teenage boy). If one took the second story to be true, the hyena [[spoiler:represented the cook, who was pragmatic to the point of being terrifying, and ended up killing Pi's mother. Richard Parker represented Pi, and so his killing of the cook was, again, justice.]] At least, that's the impression this troper got.

*** I think the key point is that, as presented in the story, there's no definitive proof either way. The investigators certainly nitpick holes in the tiger story--and I think the audience is encouraged to, as well--but ultimately I don't think we're given an answer. The only person who can confirm or repudiate the existence of a tiger on that boat is Pi, and he's not talking. So it really does become about your personal beliefs: is Pi lying, has he gone crazy from the isolation and stress, or was the tiger really there (as C.S. Lewis puts, "liar, lunatic or Lord")? Would you rather accept the weird, scary, wonderful story or the darker, bleaker, more realistic version? At the end it's less about the story and more about you, the reader, and what you believe in.

*** It should be noted that agnostisim isn't as straightforward as Pi put's it

** It's been about 5 years since this troper read the book in full, and have again but outside of academic settings and I think I've gotten a fresh take on the metaphor here. Pi does admonish the agnostics a lot more than I recall people (and myself) mentioning. As they miss the better story. A line said more than once. With this in mind I get the message is really to be interpreted that you need to have the guts to believe than keep pressing on doubts like he thinks an agnostic does. He tells the weird wild story of his adventure that takes a way of faith to accept you might say. But the investigators treat him like an agnostic (to Pi) treats religion. Doubting and not being willing to accept it. Pi's "and so it goes with god" line than simply becomes more along the lines of you can't appreciate an idea like a religion if you act that way. Not really about "go with the better story" or "God's a better story even though it's not what's true" as mentioned above. Under this lens religion is merely a tool, and this story could make you believe in anything, God just being one thing that could be applied. Making it actually a philosophy lesson than a religious one. Am i the only one now seeing this view or not?
** Could be, but the text as published is on purpose open to interpretation. There is room for multiple viewpoints. Mr. Martel being the only one who knows, but based on some response I've seen, he seems to think it should trigger conversations more so than a specific viewpoint.
** I’ll be honest, I have NEVER interrupted that line that way before. I always saw Pi saying, “So it is with God”, not as a way of comparing the stories to belief in God, but simply as an acceptance of the Writers choice of belief. Pi asked him what story he’d rather take, and the Writer said the tiger. Now think of it in reverse. Say that the Writer decided to take the story WITHOUT the tiger. What would Pi say then? Would he say, “So it is without God”? I don’t think so. I believe Pi would make the same statement regardless of which story you choose. Remember, Pi that believes in God himself so to him, everything goes with God. To me, that line is basically just Pi’s own theological way of saying, “And that’s way the cookie crumbles”.
* In both version of the story, Pi survives 277 days at sea. (Or maybe it was about 250 days, if he spent a while on that island.) Is that plausible? It seems to me that you'd run out of fresh water long before you reached the halfway point, even if the lifeboat was well-stocked.

** I think he collected rainwater as well to drink.

* Here's another thought. This book was in my 12th grade curriculum. And in that setting the ending of the story is mostly about which story you believe and why. And the religious part is often made a big deal of what do you think about it, typical good essay question (although my class didn't have that one). But my question is if we take a way the bigger message is that you should't let doubt and scrutinizing the details get in the way of enjoying a good story, can't that be turned right at the English curriculum? As it's the focusing on what do you think it means, forced reading and inspiring doubt of not having good enough backing up are indeed various reasons kids don't have fun with the books they read. Could we say the Academic support for this book is a MisaimedFandom?
** If you do, you're in good company. Mark Twain prefaces ''Literature/HuckleberryFinn'' with a statement that orders punishments for anyone seeking a moral, a plot, or a theme in the book. Hasn't stopped it from being one of the most assigned and studied books in academia.

** If you do, you're in good company. Mark Twain prefaces ''HuckleberryFinn'' with a statement that orders punishments for anyone seeking a moral, a plot, or a theme in the book. Hasn't stopped it from being one of the most assigned and studied books in academia.

** True hyenas can be dangerous, but so can tigers, and most other wild animals, and not just the carnivores either, herbivores can and have killed people too, even deer and moose have attacked people.Despite their reputation Spotted hyenas are actually very intelligent, socially complex animals, learning more quickly than the great apes in certain recent scientific tests. In most places, they hunt a lot more than they scavenge too (exact ratio can depend on area), and almost ALL wild predators scavenge sometimes if given the chance, lions, tigers and other big cats included.Circus tigers can and do turn and maul or kill their trainers sometimes. Captive,yes,trained,yes, tamed, no, they are still wild animals with all the instincts and needs that go with it. Hyenas are likely not used in general simply because they are not viewed as "pretty" or "popular" with the public, but considering how inherently abusive the circus environment is to wild animals, that is probably a good thing for the hyenas. And hyenas can and have formed positive relationships with humans if treated with the proper consideration, knowledge, and sensible caution and respect (which should be exercised around any wild animal, acclimatised to people or not), its just that because of the prejudice few people can be bothered or are motivated to try with hyenas, but they are fully capable- Kevin Richardson is one example that proves this fact https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMUIwxUsZ0Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FNvXzy4il4 and https://youtu.be/bnKsUcRq-cQ?t=10m33s. Pi was very interested in wildlife and animals and presumably as a result had done some homework and research about them, his father ran a zoo after all. He should have known enough not to believe the stereotype.

** True hyenas can be dangerous, but so can tigers, and most other wild animals, and not just the carnivores either, herbivores can and have killed people too, even deer and moose have attacked people.Despite their reputation Spotted hyenas are actually very intelligent, socially complex animals, learning more quickly than the great apes in certain recent scientific tests. In most places, they hunt a lot more than they scavenge too (exact ratio can depend on area), and almost ALL wild predators scavenge sometimes if given the chance, lions, tigers and other big cats included.Circus tigers can and do turn and maul or kill their trainers sometimes. Captive,yes,trained,yes, tamed, no, they are still wild animals with all the instincts and needs that go with it. Hyenas are likely not used in general simply because they are not viewed as "pretty" or "popular" with the public, but considering how inherently abusive the circus environment is to wild animals, that is probably a good thing for the hyenas. And hyenas can and have formed positive relationships with humans if treated with the proper consideration, knowledge, and sensible caution and respect (which should be exercised around any wild animal, acclimatised to people or not), its just that because of the prejudice few people can be bothered or are motivated to try with hyenas, but they are fully capable- Kevin Richardson is one example that proves this fact https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMUIwxUsZ0Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FNvXzy4il4 and https://youtu.be/bnKsUcRq-cQ?t=10m33s. Pi was very interested in and knowledgeable about wildlife and animals, and so should have known enough not to believe the stereotype.

** True hyenas can be dangerous, but so can tigers, and most other wild animals, and not just the carnivores either, herbivores can and have killed people too, even deer and moose have attacked people.Despite their reputation Spotted hyenas are actually very intelligent, socially complex animals, learning more quickly than the great apes in certain recent scientific tests. In most places, they hunt a lot more than they scavenge too (exact ratio can depend on area), and almost ALL wild predators scavenge sometimes if given the chance, lions, tigers and other big cats included.Circus tigers can and do turn and maul or kill their trainers sometimes. Captive,yes,trained,yes, tamed, no, they are still wild animals with all the instincts and needs that go with it. Hyenas are likely not used in general simply because they are not viewed as "pretty" or "popular" with the public, but considering how inherently abusive the circus environment is to wild animals, that is probably a good thing for the hyenas. And hyenas can and have formed positive relationships with humans if treated with the proper consideration, knowledge, and respect, its just that because of the prejudice few people are bothered or motivated to try - Kevin Richardson is one example that proves this fact https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMUIwxUsZ0Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FNvXzy4il4 and https://youtu.be/bnKsUcRq-cQ?t=10m33s. Pi was very interested in and knowledgeable about wildlife and animals, and so should have known enough not to believe the stereotype.

** True hyenas can be dangerous, but so can tigers, and most other wild animals, and not just the carnivores either, herbivores can and have killed people too, even deer and moose have attacked people.Despite their reputation Spotted hyenas are actually very intelligent, socially complex animals, learning more quickly than the great apes in certain recent scientific tests. In most places, they hunt a lot more than they scavenge too (exact ratio can depend on area), and almost ALL wild predators scavenge sometimes if given the chance, lions, tigers and other big cats included. Circus tigers can and do turn on their trainers sometimes.Captive,yes,trained,yes, tamed, no, they are still wild animals with all the instincts and needs that go with it. Hyenas are likely not used in general simply because they are not viewed as "pretty" or "popular" with the public, but considering how inherently abusive the circus environment is to wild animals, that is probably a good thing for the hyenas. And hyenas can and have formed positive relationships with humans if treated with the proper consideration, knowledge, and respect- Kevin Richardson is one example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMUIwxUsZ0Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FNvXzy4il4 and https://youtu.be/bnKsUcRq-cQ?t=10m33s. Pi was very interested in and knowledgeable about wildlife and animals, and so should have known enough not to believe the stereotype.

** True hyenas can be dangerous, but so can tigers, and most other wild animals, and not just the carnivores either, herbivores can and have killed people too, even deer and moose have attacked people.Despite their reputation Spotted hyenas are actually very intelligent, socially complex animals, learning more quickly than the great apes in recent scientific tests. In most places, they hunt a lot more than they scavenge too (exact ratio can depend on area), and almost ALL wild predators scavenge sometimes if given the chance, lions, tigers and other big cats included. Circus tigers can and do turn on their trainers sometimes.Captive,yes,trained,yes, tamed, no, they are still wild animals with all the instincts and needs that go with it. Hyenas are likely not used in general simply because they are not viewed as "pretty" or "popular" with the public, but considering how inherently abusive the circus environment is to wild animals, that is probably a good thing for the hyenas. And hyenas can and have formed positive relationships with humans if treated with the proper consideration, knowledge, and respect- Kevin Richardson is one example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMUIwxUsZ0Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FNvXzy4il4 and https://youtu.be/bnKsUcRq-cQ?t=10m33s. Pi was very interested in and knowledgeable about wildlife and animals, and so should have known enough not to believe the media stereotype.

** True hyenas can be dangerous, but so can tigers, and most other wild animals, and not just the carnivores either, herbivores can and have killed people too, even deer and moose have attacked people.Despite their reputation.Spotted hyenas are actually very intelligent, socially complex animals, learning more quickly than the great apes in recent scientific tests. In most places, they hunt a lot more than they scavenge too (exact ratio can depend on area), and almost ALL wild predators scavenge sometimes if given the chance, lions, tigers and other big cats included. Circus tigers can and do turn on their trainers sometimes.Captive,yes,trained,yes, tamed, no, they are still wild animals with all the instincts and needs that go with it. Hyenas are likely not used in general simply because they are not viewed as "pretty" or "popular" with the public, but considering how inherently abusive the circus environment is to wild animals, that is probably a good thing for the hyenas. And hyenas can and have formed positive relationships with humans if treated with the proper consideration, knowledge, and respect- Kevin Richardson is one example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMUIwxUsZ0Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FNvXzy4il4 and https://youtu.be/bnKsUcRq-cQ?t=10m33s. Pi was very interested in and knowledgeable about wildlife and animals, and so should have known enough not to believe the media stereotype.

** True hyenas can be dangerous, but so can tigers, and most other wild animals, and not just the carnivores either, herbivores can and have killed people too, even deer and moose have attacked people.Despite their reputation.Spotted hyenas are actually very intelligent, socially complex animals, learning more quickly than the great apes in recent scientific tests. In most places, they hunt a lot more than they scavenge too (exact ratio can depend on area), and almost ALL wild predators scavenge sometimes if given the chance, lions, tigers and other big cats included. Circus tigers can and do turn on their trainers sometimes. Hyenas are likely not used in general simply because they are not viewed as "pretty" or "popular" with the public, but considering how inherently abusive the circus environment is to wild animals, that is probably a good thing for the hyenas. And hyenas can and have formed positive relationships with humans if treated with the proper consideration, knowledge, and respect- Kevin Richardson is one example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMUIwxUsZ0Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FNvXzy4il4 and https://youtu.be/bnKsUcRq-cQ?t=10m33s. Pi was very interested in and knowledgeable about wildlife and animals, and so should have known enough not to believe the media stereotype.

** True hyenas can be dangerous, but so can tigers, and most other wild animals, and not just the carnivores either, herbivores can and have killed people too, even deer and moose have attacked people.Hyenas may be odd creatures by our standards but they really don't deserve the bad rep or hatred that's often directed at them. Despite their reputation. hyenas are actually very intelligent, socially complex animals, learning more quickly than the great apes in recent scientific tests. In most places, they hunt a lot more than they scavenge too (exact ratio can depend on area), killing over 80% of their food themselves in most cases, and almost ALL wild predators scavenge sometimes, lions, tigers and other big cats included. Circuses are not fun for the animals and circus tigers can and do turn on their trainers. Hyenas are likely not used in general because they are not viewed as "pretty" or "popular" with the public, but considering how inherently abusive the circus environment is to wild animals, that is probably a very good thing for the hyenas. And hyenas can and have formed positive relationships with humans if treated with the proper consideration, knowledge, and respect- Kevin Richardson is one example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMUIwxUsZ0Q , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FNvXzy4il4 and https://youtu.be/bnKsUcRq-cQ?t=10m33s. Pi was very interested in and knowledgeable about wildlife and animals, and so should have known enough not to believe the media stereotype.