History Headscratchers / KingdomHearts3DDreamDropDistance

21st Sep '17 11:06:43 AM urutapu
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* How exactly is there a dreaming version of Yen Sid's Tower for the Fantasia level when it's still in the Realm of Light?

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* How exactly is there a dreaming version of Yen Sid's Tower for the Fantasia level when it's still in the Realm of Light?Light?
** Presumably some weird combination of the fact that the Tower can actually appear in different parts of the universe (stated in 3D Ultimania) and whatever quirk of physics makes it possible to have alternative versions of "awake" characters within the sleeping worlds.
20th Sep '17 6:04:15 PM Pikatwig
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** I have a theory for this! Their Nobodies were destroyed, but I think their Hearts that their Heartless were carrying around had been trapped in the fake Kingdom Hearts that Xemnas was creating during KH2. All of the Organization member's hearts were trapped in it, and it isn't until Sora and Riku defeat Xemnas and destroy the fake Kingdom Hearts that their hearts were free to reunite with their bodies and make them whole again. They all come back at the same time because their hearts were freed at the same time.

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** I have a theory for this! Their Nobodies were destroyed, but I think their Hearts that their Heartless were carrying around had been trapped in the fake Kingdom Hearts that Xemnas was creating during KH2. All of the Organization member's hearts were trapped in it, and it isn't until Sora and Riku defeat Xemnas and destroy the fake Kingdom Hearts that their hearts were free to reunite with their bodies and make them whole again. They all come back at the same time because their hearts were freed at the same time.time.
* How exactly is there a dreaming version of Yen Sid's Tower for the Fantasia level when it's still in the Realm of Light?
5th Sep '17 5:47:34 AM UchuuFlamenco
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*** Ansem is alive because [[spoiler: Young Xehanort pulled him out thtough {{TimeTravel}}. To be more precise, he's from a time where he hasn't died yet. However, this act did not save him from his "death"; as per the rules of time travel, he has to go back to his own time eventually and history can't be changed either to avert his death as it is destined to happen. Master Xehanort successfully reforming at the end of 3D proves that.]]

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*** Ansem is alive because [[spoiler: Young Xehanort pulled him out thtough {{TimeTravel}}.through TimeTravel. To be more precise, he's from a time where he hasn't died yet. However, this act did not save him from his "death"; as per the rules of time travel, he has to go back to his own time eventually and history can't be changed either to avert his death as it is destined to happen. Master Xehanort successfully reforming at the end of 3D proves that.]]
5th Sep '17 5:47:02 AM UchuuFlamenco
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*** Expanding on the above, perhaps it's a Sleeping World, dreaming of Disney Town's past? Maybe a chunk of the world broke off, bringing a piece of the World's heart (the fragment containing the memories of that particular era), and it went to sleep because it's not a complete world. Merlin's magic has been known to get around world barriers that are supposedly impenetrable (Scrooge McDuck in BBS). And, since it contains a piece of Disney Town's heart, what happens in it could affect Disney Town in a more... psychological sense. After all, the theft of the Cornerstone of Light in the Timeless River didn't cause it to disappear in the present at the castle (which would violate the rule of "you can't change past events"), it instead caused a huge amount of vines to appear and dulled the protective abilities of the Cornerstone. In other words, the Nocebo Effect applied to an entire world; the Cornerstone was fine, the world just believed it was in big trouble because a piece of its heart dreamed of its theft. As for how the Heartless are in a Sleeping World, they got in through the same door Pete did. This could also explain the old "Present!Pete has KH design and meets Retro!Pete, yet there's no Retro!Donald and Retro!Goofy running around, and Present!Donald and Present!Goofy have their Retro designs" conundrum: the world chunk remembers what Donald and Goofy looked like, but has no specific memories of the things they did, so when the Present versions of them show up, the world dreams them to look like how it remembers them. But it does have specific memories of Pete, so when a second Pete shows up, it rolls with it and doesn't alter Present!Pete's appearance.

to:

*** Expanding on the above, perhaps it's a Sleeping World, dreaming of Disney Town's past? Maybe a chunk of the world broke off, bringing a piece of the World's heart (the fragment containing the memories of that particular era), and it went to sleep because it's not a complete world. Merlin's magic has been known to get around world barriers that are supposedly impenetrable (Scrooge McDuck [=McDuck=] in BBS). And, since it contains a piece of Disney Town's heart, what happens in it could affect Disney Town in a more... psychological sense. After all, the theft of the Cornerstone of Light in the Timeless River didn't cause it to disappear in the present at the castle (which would violate the rule of "you can't change past events"), it instead caused a huge amount of vines to appear and dulled the protective abilities of the Cornerstone. In other words, the Nocebo Effect applied to an entire world; the Cornerstone was fine, the world just believed it was in big trouble because a piece of its heart dreamed of its theft. As for how the Heartless are in a Sleeping World, they got in through the same door Pete did. This could also explain the old "Present!Pete has KH design and meets Retro!Pete, yet there's no Retro!Donald and Retro!Goofy running around, and Present!Donald and Present!Goofy have their Retro designs" conundrum: the world chunk remembers what Donald and Goofy looked like, but has no specific memories of the things they did, so when the Present versions of them show up, the world dreams them to look like how it remembers them. But it does have specific memories of Pete, so when a second Pete shows up, it rolls with it and doesn't alter Present!Pete's appearance.
21st May '17 4:12:59 PM Fury1031
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* Okay, something that makes me scratch my head a bit, when a Heartless and Nobody are destroyed, the original person is restored, right? But it was Xehanort in Terra's body that got turned into a nobody and a heartless, so shouldn't Terranort of been the one reformed, not Master Xehanort?

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* Okay, something that makes me scratch my head a bit, when a Heartless and Nobody are destroyed, the original person is restored, right? But it was Xehanort in Terra's body that got turned into a nobody and a heartless, so shouldn't Terranort of have been the one reformed, not Master Xehanort?
20th Apr '17 4:37:00 PM Peridonyx
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** According to the ''3D Ultimania'', it's indeed the old Master Xehanort that's been reformed -- evidently, his old body was preserved TimeStandsStill-style (dat vanishing, tho) over the years.
21st Feb '17 1:27:08 PM HakkyounoTenshi
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Added DiffLines:

** Sora failed by not completing the test. Yes, Xehanort screwed with it but if you want to get technical Sora didn't complete the established objectives. The instructions Sora and Riku were given for the Mark of Mastery Exam were to enter the Sleeping Worlds, unlock the seven Keyholes and get back out, having obtained a new power (it wasn't clear whether obtaining said power was a reward for completing the exam or a byproduct of completing it). While Sora got through the Sleeping Worlds and unlocked the 6 of 7 Keyholes, he didn't get that last Keyhole because of Xehanort's interference AND he couldn't get out on his own and got stuck. Riku ended up have to go and rescue him. Riku, on the other hand, managed to complete all the objectives (Sleeping Worlds, 7 Keyholes, get out), and therefore completed the exam. The reason Riku was chosen to rescue Sora is because he [[spoiler: accidentally turned himself into a Dream Eater and did his Mark of Mastery Exam in Sora's dreams]] making him the most capable of navigating them to retrieve Sora.
17th Feb '17 5:25:45 PM Superfield
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** The underlying confusion, I think, is just what Xemnas meant by "this world is real", and just what importance this fact holds. This would imply that Space Paranoids, in contrast, isn't "real". Which would, in turn, imply that the Grid is not made out of data on a hard drive somewhere, but a real physical location that can be simply flown to. Taking into consideration the entire premise of the Tron franchise and Tron Legacy in particular, this is pretty damn nonsensical. The exact nature of data in general in Kingdom Hearts isn't entirely clear to begin with, what with stuff like taking the munny purse out of Digital Twilight Town, the relationship between hearts, memories and data, and Re:coded... just kind of in general. It seems as though Nomura thought that data being able to dream didn't make sense, but in trying to fix it, created a VoodooShark instead.

to:

** The underlying confusion, I think, is just what Xemnas Young Xehanort meant by "this world is real", and just what importance this fact holds. This would imply that Space Paranoids, in contrast, isn't "real". Which would, in turn, imply that the Grid is not made out of data on a hard drive somewhere, but a real physical location that can be simply flown to. Taking into consideration the entire premise of the Tron franchise and Tron Legacy in particular, this is pretty damn nonsensical. Hell, just a few seconds before that, Xemnas tells Sora that the Grid was copied by Ansem the Wise and turned into Space Paranoids... so how the hell does that make any sense if the Grid isn't data? The exact nature of data in general in Kingdom Hearts isn't entirely clear to begin with, what with stuff like taking the munny purse out of Digital Twilight Town, the relationship between hearts, memories and data, and Re:coded... just kind of in general. It seems as though Nomura thought that data being able to dream didn't make sense, but in trying to fix it, created a VoodooShark instead.
11th Feb '17 10:39:08 PM Superfield
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** There's no mention of a "Realm of Sleep" anywhere in the game, only the phrase "Sleeping Worlds". As far as I can tell, the Sleeping Worlds are located in the Realm of Light, but are asleep and all have a mega-barrier around them. So, there is no "Realm of Sleep". While I'm still scratching my head over exactly what the opening sequence at Destiny Islands was and what it meant, it seems as though whatever the hell they did there made them able to penetrate the mega-barriers around the worlds. The fact that they each have to do a separate dive for each individual world leads credence to this.

to:

** There's no mention of a "Realm of Sleep" anywhere in the game, only the phrase "Sleeping Worlds". As far as I can tell, the Sleeping Worlds are located in the Realm of Light, but are asleep and all have a mega-barrier around them. So, there is no "Realm of Sleep". While I'm still scratching my head over exactly what the opening sequence at Destiny Islands was and what it meant, it seems as though whatever the hell they did there made them able to penetrate the mega-barriers around the worlds. The fact that they each have to do a separate dive for each individual world leads credence to this.this (although it doesn't explain why a Dive was necessary for The World That Never Was if it wasn't a Sleeping World... although this is likely just GameplayAndStorySegregation).



** But... how? How was Yen Sid able to do that without breaking the rules of KH time travel, introduced in this very game? Xehanort needed to be split into a Heartless and Nobody in order to time travel; seems like a lot of trouble in comparison. Not to mention that seemingly nobody outside of True Organization XIII knew about the time travel rules; even if Yen Sid knew them, a necessity for initiating time travel, why wouldn't he tell Sora and Riku? Seems like pretty critical information. And that doesn't explain Ursula, either; why the hell would she be in Destiny Islands circa Kingdom Hearts 1? And where was Kairi in this supposed instance of time travel? And why would Destiny Islands have anything to do at all with the Sleeping Worlds in the first place? My understanding is that falling into darkness =/= falling into sleep. Sleep is only what happens when you, for some reason, don't get properly restored to light following a fall to darkness (0.2 proves this; if Castle of Dreams, Dwarf Woodlands, Castle of Dreams and ''Destiny Islands'' were sleeping, how did Aqua get in to them, and why were they in various states of screwed up instead of dreaming?). Destiny Islands was restored properly after KH1, so what's with the Sleeping Keyhole? The whole intro to the game just doesn't add up on so many levels.

to:

** But... how? How was Yen Sid able to do that without breaking the rules of KH time travel, introduced in this very game? Xehanort needed to be split into a Heartless and Nobody in order to time travel; seems like a lot of trouble in comparison. Not to mention that seemingly nobody outside of True Organization XIII knew about the time travel rules; even if Yen Sid knew them, a necessity for initiating them (I mean, how could he initiate time travel, travel without knowing them?), why wouldn't he tell Sora and Riku? Seems like pretty critical information. And that doesn't explain Ursula, either; why the hell would she be in Destiny Islands circa Kingdom Hearts 1? And where was Kairi in this supposed instance of time travel? And why would Destiny Islands have anything to do at all with the Sleeping Worlds in the first place? My understanding is that falling into darkness =/= falling into sleep. Sleep is only what happens when you, for some reason, don't get properly restored to light following a fall to darkness (0.2 proves this; if Castle of Dreams, Dwarf Woodlands, Castle of Dreams Enchanted Dominion and ''Destiny Islands'' were sleeping, how did Aqua get in to them, and why were they in various states of screwed up instead of dreaming?). Destiny Islands was restored properly after KH1, so what's with the Sleeping Keyhole? The whole intro to the game just doesn't add up on so many levels.
11th Feb '17 10:23:34 PM Superfield
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Added DiffLines:

** The underlying confusion, I think, is just what Xemnas meant by "this world is real", and just what importance this fact holds. This would imply that Space Paranoids, in contrast, isn't "real". Which would, in turn, imply that the Grid is not made out of data on a hard drive somewhere, but a real physical location that can be simply flown to. Taking into consideration the entire premise of the Tron franchise and Tron Legacy in particular, this is pretty damn nonsensical. The exact nature of data in general in Kingdom Hearts isn't entirely clear to begin with, what with stuff like taking the munny purse out of Digital Twilight Town, the relationship between hearts, memories and data, and Re:coded... just kind of in general. It seems as though Nomura thought that data being able to dream didn't make sense, but in trying to fix it, created a VoodooShark instead.


Added DiffLines:

** There's no mention of a "Realm of Sleep" anywhere in the game, only the phrase "Sleeping Worlds". As far as I can tell, the Sleeping Worlds are located in the Realm of Light, but are asleep and all have a mega-barrier around them. So, there is no "Realm of Sleep". While I'm still scratching my head over exactly what the opening sequence at Destiny Islands was and what it meant, it seems as though whatever the hell they did there made them able to penetrate the mega-barriers around the worlds. The fact that they each have to do a separate dive for each individual world leads credence to this.


Added DiffLines:

** But... how? How was Yen Sid able to do that without breaking the rules of KH time travel, introduced in this very game? Xehanort needed to be split into a Heartless and Nobody in order to time travel; seems like a lot of trouble in comparison. Not to mention that seemingly nobody outside of True Organization XIII knew about the time travel rules; even if Yen Sid knew them, a necessity for initiating time travel, why wouldn't he tell Sora and Riku? Seems like pretty critical information. And that doesn't explain Ursula, either; why the hell would she be in Destiny Islands circa Kingdom Hearts 1? And where was Kairi in this supposed instance of time travel? And why would Destiny Islands have anything to do at all with the Sleeping Worlds in the first place? My understanding is that falling into darkness =/= falling into sleep. Sleep is only what happens when you, for some reason, don't get properly restored to light following a fall to darkness (0.2 proves this; if Castle of Dreams, Dwarf Woodlands, Castle of Dreams and ''Destiny Islands'' were sleeping, how did Aqua get in to them, and why were they in various states of screwed up instead of dreaming?). Destiny Islands was restored properly after KH1, so what's with the Sleeping Keyhole? The whole intro to the game just doesn't add up on so many levels.
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