History Headscratchers / HarryPotterAndTheOrderOfThePhoenix

21st Nov '17 12:44:51 PM Gess
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** Right. He was safe. And had aid. Which is why the bad guys with zero resources and numbers in four kept infiltrating the school under one guise or another year after year, finally abducting Harry and nearly murdering him. ... Wasn't it ''V'' who supposed to be the arrogant short-sighted moron in this story?
20th Nov '17 5:53:48 PM sugaricequeen
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** Probably because they didn't think he'd need one. He was safe at Hogwarts, where he had the aid of Dumbledore, [=McGonagall=], Hagrid, and Snape in the event that anything went wrong, and all of them were affiliated with the Order and capable of communicating with the others. No one could've foreseen that three of them would've been driven out of the school and that Harry would've been left with the one whose guts he hated the most.
20th Nov '17 4:22:03 PM H.N.Levian
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** Also, the Ministry glossing over Cedric's death so utterly is probably not an accident. They stick to a general "Potter's a liar" schtick as opposed to getting into the details of Cedric's death for a reason. Aside from the fact that, well, any competent investigation of Cedric's murder would be guaranteed to unveil a truth that Fudge didn't want, using Cedric's murder as a political weapon is something that could have turned Amos Diggory and the rest of the Diggory family against the Ministry in a public fashion, and if they were to publicly claim to believe Harry's turn of events, then that's a huge PR blow against Fudge's version of events. The easiest way to sidestep the Diggorys as a factor is to avoid talking too much about Cedric.
20th Nov '17 1:12:28 PM sugaricequeen
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** I thought Priori Incantatem referred specifically to a wand showing ghosts of all its past spells, as the words (prior incantation) would imply...Maybe I've got this all wrong, but isn't it possible that the two spells clashing is something any two wands can do?
20th Nov '17 1:07:26 PM sugaricequeen
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** Probably because there were four people at Hogwarts who were members of the Order, who Harry could feel free to go to in order to verify the truth of any visions he may've had. It just came down to some colossally rotten luck that three of them were forced out of the school and the one left behind was whose guts Harry hated the most.
9th Nov '17 5:03:52 PM H.N.Levian
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** Also keep in mind that 17-year-old Harry has two more years' worth of traumatic experiences and brushes with evil than 15-year-old Harry, and is probably considerably more jaded. I wouldn't underestimate the effect of simply being older on how much cruelty you can channel into a Cruciatus.
7th Nov '17 10:31:15 AM JulianLapostat
Is there an issue? Send a Message


[[folder: Snape's Worst Memory, in hindsight]]
* So thanks to Deathly Hallows, we know that the events Harry sees when he looks at Snape's memory took place after Sirius set up Snape to be killed by Lupin (because Snape and Lily were still on speaking terms in the aftermath of the werewolf incident and they're not after this). Which means that James and Sirius continued to mercilessly bully Snape despite the fact that he was keeping secret a) the fact that Lupin was a werewolf, and b) the fact that Sirius tried to murder him. So why did they continue to torment him, knowing he knew what he knew? Were they just that stupid? Were they just that inconsiderate of Lupin? Or had they got away with so much that they just thought they were invincible, and decided to provoke the kid who justifiably hated them and who could destroy their friend's life and probably send Sirius to Azkaban if he so chose?
** UnreliableNarrator and Film/{{Rashomon}} effect. That's Snape's version of the matter, not exactly a neutral participant.
*** No it isn't: not only does the text require us to assume that Pensieve flashbacks are accurate, WordOfGod says they are too, and besides, even if it was affected by Snape's perspective, he didn't make it up out of whole cloth. Even if we do assume he made being attacked, choked, publically humiliated, and possibly stripped after Harry left the memory worse somehow, the Marauders did still continue to bully him while he was keeping Lupin's secret. Snape's opinions can't change the order of events.
*** I don't think you know how memory works. Memory does not works as a video camera, Snape's flashback Pensieve or not are subjective to his remembrance, they are affected by his feelings, emotions and perspectives at the time. And in any case, as mentioned in other parts, Snape was the one doing the bullying in other situations.
*** It's you that's mistaken about how the Pensieve works, actually. J.K. Rowling clarified the question of how objective Pensieve memories are in an interview: http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm The entire point of the Pensieve is that it recreates ''the reality of'' your memory, which allows you to go back and look for things you missed the first time around, or to look at the events from an objective, third-person perspective. That ironically makes Snape's Pensieve memory a ''more'' accurate representation of events than whatever any of the Marauders might have said after the fact.
*** It could be that Snape didn't want to ruin Lupin's life over the actions of James and Sirius - we know that Lupin tended not to take part in their bullying antics, and the two of them were on friendly enough terms for Snape to brew up some Wolfsbane potion after Lupin became a professor.
*** [[NoGoodDeedGoesUnpunished So James and Sirius just took advantage of Snape protecting their friend.]] That's... that's great. [[FridgeBrilliance No wonder they thought Lupin might have been the traitor in the Order, if this was how they acted.]]
*** For the first part, it's likely that no one would believe him anyway. Snape is a underage student at that time who hates the Mareuders and people would think he would say anything to make their life difficult, which is not the same as a member of a faculty revealing it as he did when he was an adult (ruining Lupin's life and making him loose his job in the process). As for the other part, you have to be more specific as at what point was Snape's life in danger, I really missed that part. But it should be notice that this could be a case of AssholeVictim, although a lot of people tend to see James Potter and co as sadistic villains due to DracoInLeatherPants effect on Snape, he was by no mean very different, he was after all an angry, embittered Slytherin who believed, to some degree at least, in blood supremacy as he ends up a Death Eater. No matter how accurate the Pensieve is, Snape was the one in the bullying side in some occasions, or that's what other characters say.
*** ... Snape's life was in danger when Sirius tricked him into being in the same room as a werewolf. Potterverse werewolves are uncontrollably homicidal, remember? (Unless they take Wolfsbane potion, which Lupin wasn't back then). Also, what are you talking about with the rest of it? Being in Slytherin doesn't make you evil. Being angry and embittered because the Marauders have bullied you non-stop for five years is totally justified. At some point he came to absorb pureblood supremacist beliefs, either genuinely or in the hope of acceptance from Lucius and co, and that actually is a bad thing ''but that's not why the Marauders bullied him''. They started literally the day they met him on the Hogwarts Express. And even if, by some bizarre logic, Snape's later joining a Nazi terrorist group for a while retroactively justifies the Marauders' torment, it still doesn't explain or justify their callousness towards his potential to out Lupin.
*** I think this is one of those cases when the headscratcher can't be answered because the OP already made up his/hers mind and is not really asking something as much as wanting to make a point and the only possible answer will be: ''Because James Potter and the Marauders are evil bastards, that's why!'' Which is fine, I think that's the beauty of the artistic work: different people have different interpretations. The works are subjective and a Snape fan would have a very different interpretation than a non-Snape fan or even a Snape hater [like me]. But what I don't get is what's the point in asking if all effort from other tropers to give and answer is going to be responded, then you're not asking, you're arguing. This happens very often in the Harry Potter headscratchers for some reason. Thus, the only possible answer to this particular headscratcher I think you have it yourself and is the one that pleases you, they did it ForTheEvulz.
*** No, it's because, while there have been two answers suggested - the theory that James and Sirius thought no one would believe Snape, and the theory that they knew he wouldn't punish Lupin for their actions - attempts to excuse their bullying as a whole aren't relevant (and canonically it happened because James and Sirius were bullying little shits at school, so I don't know why people are so eager to do so). My question was: why did they continue bullying after the specific point when Snape could have outed their friend as a werewolf. I'm not convinced by the suggested answers, but they are relevant to the Headscratcher. Attempts to say "Snape deserved James and Sirius' bullying because he became embittered and hated them (as a result of their bullying)" ''have nothing to do with risking Lupin's outing as a werewolf.''
*** I never said that [[SarcasmMode Saint Severus]] became embittered and angry because of the bullying, he was already embittered and angry before he even gets to Hogwarts; he came from an abusive home and he had the pathetic unrequited love obsession with Lily that was probably the main reason why he hated James Potter and why he became a Death Eater on the first place. But again, you seem to already made up your mind about the issue, so I don’t really get why are you asking. When people honestly is trying to give you an answer it gets angrily contested, thus is not really a headscratcher, it’s a complaint disguised as a headscratcher. Basically natter in disguise.
*** Original poster here: maybe not you, but whoever gave the "no one would have believed him" idea brought up Snape's bitterness as if it makes him deserving of the Marauder's cruelty. And like I said: I am not contesting actual answers - I didn't say anything about "no one would have believed him" or "they knew Snape wouldn't tell" because, while I'm not convinced by them (I think if Hermione could work out Lupin's secret just by knowing about werewolves, Snape's classmates could have done so if he'd said "Lupin vanishes every full moon and strange howls come from the Shrieking Shack at that time", and Sirius and Lupin seem close enough on-page that it's difficult for me to imagine Sirius at least being that careless of him), they are actual answers - they might convince others, and other theories might convince me. And I don't know where you're getting "angrily" from, at least from me; that's the trouble with these anonymous edits. I do think Rowling screwed up her intended depiction of the Marauders - they're meant to be bullies but, Pettigrew aside, their good feature is supposed to be in-group loyalty - but I am asking a genuine question about whether anyone has any way to reconcile the "loyal assholes" idea with this "callous assholes risking their friend's well-being" scene. It's a question about the Marauders, not Snape, and I don't know why various people brought up his character flaws in response to a question about ''James'' and ''Sirius''' apparent poor treatment of ''Lupin''.
*** How exactly is Sev an UnreliableNarrator here? You mean the pants-pulling event didn't happen? It happened another way? Is there any proof to that? Please elaborate, because as far as I can see it, it's quite straightforward: Marauders either received some confirmation that Sev wouldn't bust them (maybe DD had Severus sworn to secrecy, or maybe Severus himself made it clear that he wouldn't stoop to that), or they were simply idiots. I know you don't ''like'' either of those options, as besmearching the "good guys", but, alas, they are substantiated by the story, unlike the ostensible bullying on Sev's part, of which we only have Black's account, who, insidentally, ''is'' an UnreliableNarrator. Don't you just love the irony?
*** For me one important aspect that Snape's fanboys are forgetting is that this was '''one''' of the many, many situations that happened during a span of seven years, in which Snape was on the other side of the bullying more than once. So, yes the upside down pants things what pretty cruel, the issue here which I personally find amazing is why is '''this''' particular event so significant for some tropers to the point that they disregard entirely decades and decades of mutual hatred between characters, to the point that they were even in opposite sides of a war. Cognitive dissonance much? On the werewolf prank, I wonder, was Snape unarmed? was he send there without his wand? Because werewolf or not a wizard, even a teenager, is more than capable to defend himself from a werewolf. Apart from the scare his life wasn't in any real danger.
*** For me (original poster again), one important aspect is that ''this isn't a question about Snape'' (except in that it was him rather than another victim who was keeping Lupin's secret). But if you're so desperate to derail this, then I'll give my perspective on it: until James changed his ways to impress Lily, he and the Marauders bullied a whole bunch of people. Snape, as far as we are told, only attacked the Marauders. When they ended up on opposite sides of a war, ''that was after they'd left school'' and is irrelevant to their playground feud. Given that the Marauders started the whole thing, that the only incidents we see rather than hear about are James and Sirius attacking Snape unprovoked, and that I do not consider retaliating against one's bullies (especially in a setting like this where AdultsAreUseless) to be "bullying" (if you disagree, fair enough, but let's be clear on how we're using these terms), the Marauders bullied Snape and Snape fought back. Also, Harry and Hermione needed Sirius to protect them from Lupin, and that was when they knew what to expect - and ''why do people call attempted murder a prank?'' (Also, if Sirius expected Snape to defend himself against wolf!Lupin, he was risking Lupin's safety as well as Snape's, so that doesn't make him look any better.)
*** You have a lot of presumptions that are not in anyway backed by the books. Nowhere in the books says that the Marauders ever bullied someone other than Snape, never in the books is said that they started, there's only one incident that we hear with James and Sirius attacking Snape. But let's see what the books actually say about the whole thing:

-->Sirius: "Ever since I found out Snape was teaching here, I’ve wondered why Dumbledore hired him. Snape's '''always been fascinated by the Dark Arts''', he was '''famous for it at school'''. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was." Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each other. "Snape knew '''more curses''' when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a '''gang of Slytherins who nearly-all turned out to be Death Eaters'''." ([=GoF=] Chapter 27) ''So it seems that Snape new curses since before he enters Hogwarts' first grade. I wonder what he did with that knowledge, I guess just innocent things and never use them to harm anyone. Oh, and he was member of a gang of blood supremacists that I suppose were very kind and polite with everyone.''

-->Lupin: “I wouldn’t want you to judge your father on what you saw there, Harry. He was only fifteen –”
-->“I’m fifteen!” said Harry heatedly.
-->“Look Harry,” said Sirius placatingly, “James and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other, it was just one of those things, you can understand that, can’t you? I think James was everything Snape wanted to be — he was popular, he was good at Quidditch, good at pretty much everything. And Snape was just this little oddball who '''was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts''' and James — whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry — always hated the Dark Arts.” ([=OotP=], Chapter 29) ''Look at this, according to Lupin they hated each other since the day they met, none of them started. Snape out of envy toward Potter, and Potter because Snape was interested in the Dark Arts since he was little... Dark Arts, doesn't sound like something a nice person would be involved with. I mean even Harry started to think bad of his own father after seeing that scene until Lupin put him in context.''

-->Snape’s worst memory: “LEAVE HIM ALONE!” Lily shouted. She had her own wand out now. James and Sirius eyed it warily.
-->“Ah, Evans, don’t make me hex you,” said James earnestly.
-->“Take the curse off him, then!”
-->James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the countercurse.
-->“There you go,” he said, as Snape struggled to his feet again, “you’re lucky Evans was here, Snivellus–”
-->“I don’t need help from '''filthy little Mudbloods like her!'''” ([=OotP=], Chapter 28). ''Look at that, Snape using a racial slur against the girl who stood up for him. But of course, we should assume he never bullied no one, nor even other "filthy little mudbloods" like Lily. I mean, if that's the way he treats the girl he has a crush on, we must assume he treated the other "mudbloods" perfectly fine.''

-->"... thought we were supposed to be friends?” Snape was saying. “Best friends?”
--> “We are, Sev, but I don’t like some of the people you’re hanging round with! I’m sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev, he’s creepy! '''D’you know what he tried to do to Mary Macdonald the other day?”'''
-->Lily had reached a pillar and leaned against it, looking up into the thin, sallow face.
-->“That was nothing,” said Snape. “It was a laugh, that’s all-”
-->“It was Dark Magic, and if you think that’s funny-” (DH, Chapter 33). ''Look at that! One of Snape's closest friends bullyng a girl with Dark Magic, and Snape laughs at that!''

-->“It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and '''your precious little Death Eater friends''' - you see, you don’t even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?” (DH, Chapter 33).

** We do know the Marauders bullied other people: Lily accuses James of hexing anyone he doesn't like, and Snape shows Harry a record of James getting detention for cursing someone's head to twice its normal size. Snape eventually became a Death Eater, and he was fascinated by the Dark Arts, but ''we have no evidence of him attacking anyone but the Marauders''. And the distinction between Dark magic and acceptable harmful magic is, Unforgivables aside, basically fanon because Rowling never said what it was. Yes, Snape hung out with people worse than he was, and became corrupted by them (he shared a dorm with them; so I can't blame him entirely for his association with them), but you know what I see from those extracts (all of which are hearsay and only one - calling Lily "Mudblood" - actually proves he hurt anyone unprovoked)? A bullying victim with scary/dangerous interests who was surrounded predominantly by racist assholes and, with only one friend, desperate for acceptance and protection and not knowing where else to turn.\\

But anyway, now that we've said our respective pieces, ''can we please stop the Snape derail?'' [[SincerityMode Thank you.]]

** The answer to the headscratcher was very simple to begin with. Why do they acted so irresponsibly? Well because they were teens. Adolescents are often irresponsible, immature and stupid in their actions. That’s why you don’t get punish the same way for committing a crime as a teen than as an adult. You can’t judge them as if they were grownups, and you shouldn’t disregard the context of the environment.\\
What I took from the books, and the quotes above reinforce that, is that they had a clear animosity between two or more groups, which is very common in high schools, with the proto Death Eaters on one side and the Marauders and their friends on the other. The future DE were blood supremacists and Dark Magic enthusiasts that obviously bullied a lot of people especially muggleborns. Snape was one of them. Maybe he never was active --or we don’t have evidence of him having more than a passive role in the bullying--but he did laugh and approve it. He was the Lupin of the proto DE if you want, thus very close to AssholeVictim in my book on that particular tree incident. The Marauders were not entirely better than the DE, that’s something that happens in real life (without getting too political, we know in RealLife that as disgusting as alt-righters and white supremacists can be, their opponents sometimes can get into very questionable actions that can be dangerously similar), but a lot of people may think that their outrage and hostility over the ideology and behavior of the future Death Eaters (including Snape) was justify, albeit the way they responded was not.\\
Thing is, they do seem to grow over that. Lupin and Snape treated each other normally and Snape risked his cover trying to save his life in DH, Sirius and Snape disliked each other and often snarked one another but they were able to work together for the Order. The relationship with James Potter was never going to be like that because of Snape’s crush, and we know that, but the rest moved on. It’s like how Harry and Duddley find the way to became friends at the end and how --if Cursed Child is canonical-- adult!Harry and adult!Malfoy treat each other respectfully and work together as the mature adults they are. Which I think is a good message: breaking the circle, not repeating past mistakes, etc.
[[/folder]]


to:

[[folder: Snape's Worst Memory, in hindsight]]
* So thanks to Deathly Hallows, we know that the events Harry sees when he looks at Snape's memory took place after Sirius set up Snape to be killed by Lupin (because Snape and Lily were still on speaking terms in the aftermath of the werewolf incident and they're not after this). Which means that James and Sirius continued to mercilessly bully Snape despite the fact that he was keeping secret a) the fact that Lupin was a werewolf, and b) the fact that Sirius tried to murder him. So why did they continue to torment him, knowing he knew what he knew? Were they just that stupid? Were they just that inconsiderate of Lupin? Or had they got away with so much that they just thought they were invincible, and decided to provoke the kid who justifiably hated them and who could destroy their friend's life and probably send Sirius to Azkaban if he so chose?
** UnreliableNarrator and Film/{{Rashomon}} effect. That's Snape's version of the matter, not exactly a neutral participant.
*** No it isn't: not only does the text require us to assume that Pensieve flashbacks are accurate, WordOfGod says they are too, and besides, even if it was affected by Snape's perspective, he didn't make it up out of whole cloth. Even if we do assume he made being attacked, choked, publically humiliated, and possibly stripped after Harry left the memory worse somehow, the Marauders did still continue to bully him while he was keeping Lupin's secret. Snape's opinions can't change the order of events.
*** I don't think you know how memory works. Memory does not works as a video camera, Snape's flashback Pensieve or not are subjective to his remembrance, they are affected by his feelings, emotions and perspectives at the time. And in any case, as mentioned in other parts, Snape was the one doing the bullying in other situations.
*** It's you that's mistaken about how the Pensieve works, actually. J.K. Rowling clarified the question of how objective Pensieve memories are in an interview: http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm The entire point of the Pensieve is that it recreates ''the reality of'' your memory, which allows you to go back and look for things you missed the first time around, or to look at the events from an objective, third-person perspective. That ironically makes Snape's Pensieve memory a ''more'' accurate representation of events than whatever any of the Marauders might have said after the fact.
*** It could be that Snape didn't want to ruin Lupin's life over the actions of James and Sirius - we know that Lupin tended not to take part in their bullying antics, and the two of them were on friendly enough terms for Snape to brew up some Wolfsbane potion after Lupin became a professor.
*** [[NoGoodDeedGoesUnpunished So James and Sirius just took advantage of Snape protecting their friend.]] That's... that's great. [[FridgeBrilliance No wonder they thought Lupin might have been the traitor in the Order, if this was how they acted.]]
*** For the first part, it's likely that no one would believe him anyway. Snape is a underage student at that time who hates the Mareuders and people would think he would say anything to make their life difficult, which is not the same as a member of a faculty revealing it as he did when he was an adult (ruining Lupin's life and making him loose his job in the process). As for the other part, you have to be more specific as at what point was Snape's life in danger, I really missed that part. But it should be notice that this could be a case of AssholeVictim, although a lot of people tend to see James Potter and co as sadistic villains due to DracoInLeatherPants effect on Snape, he was by no mean very different, he was after all an angry, embittered Slytherin who believed, to some degree at least, in blood supremacy as he ends up a Death Eater. No matter how accurate the Pensieve is, Snape was the one in the bullying side in some occasions, or that's what other characters say.
*** ... Snape's life was in danger when Sirius tricked him into being in the same room as a werewolf. Potterverse werewolves are uncontrollably homicidal, remember? (Unless they take Wolfsbane potion, which Lupin wasn't back then). Also, what are you talking about with the rest of it? Being in Slytherin doesn't make you evil. Being angry and embittered because the Marauders have bullied you non-stop for five years is totally justified. At some point he came to absorb pureblood supremacist beliefs, either genuinely or in the hope of acceptance from Lucius and co, and that actually is a bad thing ''but that's not why the Marauders bullied him''. They started literally the day they met him on the Hogwarts Express. And even if, by some bizarre logic, Snape's later joining a Nazi terrorist group for a while retroactively justifies the Marauders' torment, it still doesn't explain or justify their callousness towards his potential to out Lupin.
*** I think this is one of those cases when the headscratcher can't be answered because the OP already made up his/hers mind and is not really asking something as much as wanting to make a point and the only possible answer will be: ''Because James Potter and the Marauders are evil bastards, that's why!'' Which is fine, I think that's the beauty of the artistic work: different people have different interpretations. The works are subjective and a Snape fan would have a very different interpretation than a non-Snape fan or even a Snape hater [like me]. But what I don't get is what's the point in asking if all effort from other tropers to give and answer is going to be responded, then you're not asking, you're arguing. This happens very often in the Harry Potter headscratchers for some reason. Thus, the only possible answer to this particular headscratcher I think you have it yourself and is the one that pleases you, they did it ForTheEvulz.
*** No, it's because, while there have been two answers suggested - the theory that James and Sirius thought no one would believe Snape, and the theory that they knew he wouldn't punish Lupin for their actions - attempts to excuse their bullying as a whole aren't relevant (and canonically it happened because James and Sirius were bullying little shits at school, so I don't know why people are so eager to do so). My question was: why did they continue bullying after the specific point when Snape could have outed their friend as a werewolf. I'm not convinced by the suggested answers, but they are relevant to the Headscratcher. Attempts to say "Snape deserved James and Sirius' bullying because he became embittered and hated them (as a result of their bullying)" ''have nothing to do with risking Lupin's outing as a werewolf.''
*** I never said that [[SarcasmMode Saint Severus]] became embittered and angry because of the bullying, he was already embittered and angry before he even gets to Hogwarts; he came from an abusive home and he had the pathetic unrequited love obsession with Lily that was probably the main reason why he hated James Potter and why he became a Death Eater on the first place. But again, you seem to already made up your mind about the issue, so I don’t really get why are you asking. When people honestly is trying to give you an answer it gets angrily contested, thus is not really a headscratcher, it’s a complaint disguised as a headscratcher. Basically natter in disguise.
*** Original poster here: maybe not you, but whoever gave the "no one would have believed him" idea brought up Snape's bitterness as if it makes him deserving of the Marauder's cruelty. And like I said: I am not contesting actual answers - I didn't say anything about "no one would have believed him" or "they knew Snape wouldn't tell" because, while I'm not convinced by them (I think if Hermione could work out Lupin's secret just by knowing about werewolves, Snape's classmates could have done so if he'd said "Lupin vanishes every full moon and strange howls come from the Shrieking Shack at that time", and Sirius and Lupin seem close enough on-page that it's difficult for me to imagine Sirius at least being that careless of him), they are actual answers - they might convince others, and other theories might convince me. And I don't know where you're getting "angrily" from, at least from me; that's the trouble with these anonymous edits. I do think Rowling screwed up her intended depiction of the Marauders - they're meant to be bullies but, Pettigrew aside, their good feature is supposed to be in-group loyalty - but I am asking a genuine question about whether anyone has any way to reconcile the "loyal assholes" idea with this "callous assholes risking their friend's well-being" scene. It's a question about the Marauders, not Snape, and I don't know why various people brought up his character flaws in response to a question about ''James'' and ''Sirius''' apparent poor treatment of ''Lupin''.
*** How exactly is Sev an UnreliableNarrator here? You mean the pants-pulling event didn't happen? It happened another way? Is there any proof to that? Please elaborate, because as far as I can see it, it's quite straightforward: Marauders either received some confirmation that Sev wouldn't bust them (maybe DD had Severus sworn to secrecy, or maybe Severus himself made it clear that he wouldn't stoop to that), or they were simply idiots. I know you don't ''like'' either of those options, as besmearching the "good guys", but, alas, they are substantiated by the story, unlike the ostensible bullying on Sev's part, of which we only have Black's account, who, insidentally, ''is'' an UnreliableNarrator. Don't you just love the irony?
*** For me one important aspect that Snape's fanboys are forgetting is that this was '''one''' of the many, many situations that happened during a span of seven years, in which Snape was on the other side of the bullying more than once. So, yes the upside down pants things what pretty cruel, the issue here which I personally find amazing is why is '''this''' particular event so significant for some tropers to the point that they disregard entirely decades and decades of mutual hatred between characters, to the point that they were even in opposite sides of a war. Cognitive dissonance much? On the werewolf prank, I wonder, was Snape unarmed? was he send there without his wand? Because werewolf or not a wizard, even a teenager, is more than capable to defend himself from a werewolf. Apart from the scare his life wasn't in any real danger.
*** For me (original poster again), one important aspect is that ''this isn't a question about Snape'' (except in that it was him rather than another victim who was keeping Lupin's secret). But if you're so desperate to derail this, then I'll give my perspective on it: until James changed his ways to impress Lily, he and the Marauders bullied a whole bunch of people. Snape, as far as we are told, only attacked the Marauders. When they ended up on opposite sides of a war, ''that was after they'd left school'' and is irrelevant to their playground feud. Given that the Marauders started the whole thing, that the only incidents we see rather than hear about are James and Sirius attacking Snape unprovoked, and that I do not consider retaliating against one's bullies (especially in a setting like this where AdultsAreUseless) to be "bullying" (if you disagree, fair enough, but let's be clear on how we're using these terms), the Marauders bullied Snape and Snape fought back. Also, Harry and Hermione needed Sirius to protect them from Lupin, and that was when they knew what to expect - and ''why do people call attempted murder a prank?'' (Also, if Sirius expected Snape to defend himself against wolf!Lupin, he was risking Lupin's safety as well as Snape's, so that doesn't make him look any better.)
*** You have a lot of presumptions that are not in anyway backed by the books. Nowhere in the books says that the Marauders ever bullied someone other than Snape, never in the books is said that they started, there's only one incident that we hear with James and Sirius attacking Snape. But let's see what the books actually say about the whole thing:

-->Sirius: "Ever since I found out Snape was teaching here, I’ve wondered why Dumbledore hired him. Snape's '''always been fascinated by the Dark Arts''', he was '''famous for it at school'''. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was." Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each other. "Snape knew '''more curses''' when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a '''gang of Slytherins who nearly-all turned out to be Death Eaters'''." ([=GoF=] Chapter 27) ''So it seems that Snape new curses since before he enters Hogwarts' first grade. I wonder what he did with that knowledge, I guess just innocent things and never use them to harm anyone. Oh, and he was member of a gang of blood supremacists that I suppose were very kind and polite with everyone.''

-->Lupin: “I wouldn’t want you to judge your father on what you saw there, Harry. He was only fifteen –”
-->“I’m fifteen!” said Harry heatedly.
-->“Look Harry,” said Sirius placatingly, “James and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other, it was just one of those things, you can understand that, can’t you? I think James was everything Snape wanted to be — he was popular, he was good at Quidditch, good at pretty much everything. And Snape was just this little oddball who '''was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts''' and James — whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry — always hated the Dark Arts.” ([=OotP=], Chapter 29) ''Look at this, according to Lupin they hated each other since the day they met, none of them started. Snape out of envy toward Potter, and Potter because Snape was interested in the Dark Arts since he was little... Dark Arts, doesn't sound like something a nice person would be involved with. I mean even Harry started to think bad of his own father after seeing that scene until Lupin put him in context.''

-->Snape’s worst memory: “LEAVE HIM ALONE!” Lily shouted. She had her own wand out now. James and Sirius eyed it warily.
-->“Ah, Evans, don’t make me hex you,” said James earnestly.
-->“Take the curse off him, then!”
-->James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the countercurse.
-->“There you go,” he said, as Snape struggled to his feet again, “you’re lucky Evans was here, Snivellus–”
-->“I don’t need help from '''filthy little Mudbloods like her!'''” ([=OotP=], Chapter 28). ''Look at that, Snape using a racial slur against the girl who stood up for him. But of course, we should assume he never bullied no one, nor even other "filthy little mudbloods" like Lily. I mean, if that's the way he treats the girl he has a crush on, we must assume he treated the other "mudbloods" perfectly fine.''

-->"... thought we were supposed to be friends?” Snape was saying. “Best friends?”
--> “We are, Sev, but I don’t like some of the people you’re hanging round with! I’m sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev, he’s creepy! '''D’you know what he tried to do to Mary Macdonald the other day?”'''
-->Lily had reached a pillar and leaned against it, looking up into the thin, sallow face.
-->“That was nothing,” said Snape. “It was a laugh, that’s all-”
-->“It was Dark Magic, and if you think that’s funny-” (DH, Chapter 33). ''Look at that! One of Snape's closest friends bullyng a girl with Dark Magic, and Snape laughs at that!''

-->“It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and '''your precious little Death Eater friends''' - you see, you don’t even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?” (DH, Chapter 33).

** We do know the Marauders bullied other people: Lily accuses James of hexing anyone he doesn't like, and Snape shows Harry a record of James getting detention for cursing someone's head to twice its normal size. Snape eventually became a Death Eater, and he was fascinated by the Dark Arts, but ''we have no evidence of him attacking anyone but the Marauders''. And the distinction between Dark magic and acceptable harmful magic is, Unforgivables aside, basically fanon because Rowling never said what it was. Yes, Snape hung out with people worse than he was, and became corrupted by them (he shared a dorm with them; so I can't blame him entirely for his association with them), but you know what I see from those extracts (all of which are hearsay and only one - calling Lily "Mudblood" - actually proves he hurt anyone unprovoked)? A bullying victim with scary/dangerous interests who was surrounded predominantly by racist assholes and, with only one friend, desperate for acceptance and protection and not knowing where else to turn.\\

But anyway, now that we've said our respective pieces, ''can we please stop the Snape derail?'' [[SincerityMode Thank you.]]

** The answer to the headscratcher was very simple to begin with. Why do they acted so irresponsibly? Well because they were teens. Adolescents are often irresponsible, immature and stupid in their actions. That’s why you don’t get punish the same way for committing a crime as a teen than as an adult. You can’t judge them as if they were grownups, and you shouldn’t disregard the context of the environment.\\
What I took from the books, and the quotes above reinforce that, is that they had a clear animosity between two or more groups, which is very common in high schools, with the proto Death Eaters on one side and the Marauders and their friends on the other. The future DE were blood supremacists and Dark Magic enthusiasts that obviously bullied a lot of people especially muggleborns. Snape was one of them. Maybe he never was active --or we don’t have evidence of him having more than a passive role in the bullying--but he did laugh and approve it. He was the Lupin of the proto DE if you want, thus very close to AssholeVictim in my book on that particular tree incident. The Marauders were not entirely better than the DE, that’s something that happens in real life (without getting too political, we know in RealLife that as disgusting as alt-righters and white supremacists can be, their opponents sometimes can get into very questionable actions that can be dangerously similar), but a lot of people may think that their outrage and hostility over the ideology and behavior of the future Death Eaters (including Snape) was justify, albeit the way they responded was not.\\
Thing is, they do seem to grow over that. Lupin and Snape treated each other normally and Snape risked his cover trying to save his life in DH, Sirius and Snape disliked each other and often snarked one another but they were able to work together for the Order. The relationship with James Potter was never going to be like that because of Snape’s crush, and we know that, but the rest moved on. It’s like how Harry and Duddley find the way to became friends at the end and how --if Cursed Child is canonical-- adult!Harry and adult!Malfoy treat each other respectfully and work together as the mature adults they are. Which I think is a good message: breaking the circle, not repeating past mistakes, etc.
[[/folder]]

7th Nov '17 7:54:13 AM tafelshrew
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** We do know the Marauders bullied other people: Lily accuses James of hexing anyone he doesn't like, and Snape shows Harry a record of James getting detention for cursing someone's head to twice its normal size. Snape eventually became a Death Eater, and he was fascinated by the Dark Arts, but ''we have no evidence of him attacking anyone but the Marauders''. And the distinction between Dark magic and acceptable harmful magic is, Unforgivables aside, basically fanon because Rowling never said what it was. Yes, Snape hung out with people worse than he was, and became corrupted by them (he shared a dorm with them; so I can't blame him entirely for his association with them), but you know what I see from those extracts (all of which are hearsay and only one - calling Lily "Mudblood" - actually proves he hurt anyone unprovoked)? A bullying victim with scary/dangerous interests who was surrounded predominantly by racist assholes and, with only one friend, desperate for acceptance and protection and not knowing where else to turn.\\

But anyway, now that we've said our respective pieces, ''can we please stop the Snape derail?'' [[SincerityMode Thank you.]]



Thing is, they do seem to grow over that. Lupin and Snape treated each other normally, Sirius and Snape disliked each other and often snarked one another but they were able to work together for the Order. The relationship with James Potter was never going to be like that because of Snape’s crush, and we know that, but the rest moved on. It’s like how Harry and Duddley find the way to became friends at the end and how --if Cursed Child is canonical-- adult!Harry and adult!Malfoy treat each other respectfully and work together as the mature adults they are. Which I think is a good message: breaking the circle, not repeating past mistakes, etc.

to:

Thing is, they do seem to grow over that. Lupin and Snape treated each other normally, normally and Snape risked his cover trying to save his life in DH, Sirius and Snape disliked each other and often snarked one another but they were able to work together for the Order. The relationship with James Potter was never going to be like that because of Snape’s crush, and we know that, but the rest moved on. It’s like how Harry and Duddley find the way to became friends at the end and how --if Cursed Child is canonical-- adult!Harry and adult!Malfoy treat each other respectfully and work together as the mature adults they are. Which I think is a good message: breaking the circle, not repeating past mistakes, etc.
7th Nov '17 4:02:42 AM Dgon
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

**The answer to the headscratcher was very simple to begin with. Why do they acted so irresponsibly? Well because they were teens. Adolescents are often irresponsible, immature and stupid in their actions. That’s why you don’t get punish the same way for committing a crime as a teen than as an adult. You can’t judge them as if they were grownups, and you shouldn’t disregard the context of the environment.\\
What I took from the books, and the quotes above reinforce that, is that they had a clear animosity between two or more groups, which is very common in high schools, with the proto Death Eaters on one side and the Marauders and their friends on the other. The future DE were blood supremacists and Dark Magic enthusiasts that obviously bullied a lot of people especially muggleborns. Snape was one of them. Maybe he never was active --or we don’t have evidence of him having more than a passive role in the bullying--but he did laugh and approve it. He was the Lupin of the proto DE if you want, thus very close to AssholeVictim in my book on that particular tree incident. The Marauders were not entirely better than the DE, that’s something that happens in real life (without getting too political, we know in RealLife that as disgusting as alt-righters and white supremacists can be, their opponents sometimes can get into very questionable actions that can be dangerously similar), but a lot of people may think that their outrage and hostility over the ideology and behavior of the future Death Eaters (including Snape) was justify, albeit the way they responded was not.\\
Thing is, they do seem to grow over that. Lupin and Snape treated each other normally, Sirius and Snape disliked each other and often snarked one another but they were able to work together for the Order. The relationship with James Potter was never going to be like that because of Snape’s crush, and we know that, but the rest moved on. It’s like how Harry and Duddley find the way to became friends at the end and how --if Cursed Child is canonical-- adult!Harry and adult!Malfoy treat each other respectfully and work together as the mature adults they are. Which I think is a good message: breaking the circle, not repeating past mistakes, etc.
7th Nov '17 1:46:02 AM Luppercus
Is there an issue? Send a Message


-->Sirius: "Ever since I found out Snape was teaching here, I’ve wondered why Dumbledore hired him. Snape's '''always been fascinated by the Dark Arts''', he was '''famous for it at school'''. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was." Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each other. "Snape knew '''more curses''' when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a '''gang of Slytherins who nearly-all turned out to be Death Eaters'''." ([=GoF=] Chapter 27) ''So it seems that Snape new curses since before he enter Hogwarts' first grade. I wonder what he did with that knowledge, I guess just innocent things and never use them to harm anyone. Oh, and he was member of a gang of blood supremacists that I suppose were very kind and polite with everyone.''

to:

-->Sirius: "Ever since I found out Snape was teaching here, I’ve wondered why Dumbledore hired him. Snape's '''always been fascinated by the Dark Arts''', he was '''famous for it at school'''. Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was." Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each other. "Snape knew '''more curses''' when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a '''gang of Slytherins who nearly-all turned out to be Death Eaters'''." ([=GoF=] Chapter 27) ''So it seems that Snape new curses since before he enter enters Hogwarts' first grade. I wonder what he did with that knowledge, I guess just innocent things and never use them to harm anyone. Oh, and he was member of a gang of blood supremacists that I suppose were very kind and polite with everyone.''



-->“It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and ''your precious little Death Eater friends'' - you see, you don’t even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?” (DH, Chapter 33).

to:

-->“It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and ''your '''your precious little Death Eater friends'' friends''' - you see, you don’t even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?” (DH, Chapter 33).
This list shows the last 10 events of 1115. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.HarryPotterAndTheOrderOfThePhoenix