History Headscratchers / FateStayNight

26th Aug '16 2:28:16 PM storymasterb
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** All we know is that he exists and that he's a Heroic Spirit (we know one of his Noble Phantasms). Even Garden of Avalon (a short story collection which covered events in the time when Saber was alive) doesn't go into detail about him. I'm inclined to believe he was just born pre-Arthur's reign to fix the timeline.




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** Theoretically, yes, and it could be a useful tool for the likes of an Assassin. The issue is that it's of fairly limited effectiveness since you have to go back into a Material Body to attack the enemy or defend your Master. There's nothing stopping it from being used to avoid combat, but for varying reasons we only see it used because it conserves mana. @Noble Phantasms, they're inherently magical, which is why they can harm Servants. It's why Fate/zero Berserker's Knight of Honor NP is so powerful, because he can pick up modern weaponry like machine guns and make it capable of harming Servants. So a Noble Phantasm could harm a Servant in Spiritual Body, I assume.
17th Aug '16 1:29:22 PM Discar
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*** So far as I know, the idea that the Sumerians had body armor (other than helmets) is speculation based on artwork, which could just as easily represent fleecy sheepskin (interpreted as scale armor) and spotted hair-on hides (interpreted as appliqued metal discs). In any case, they certainly had nothing resembling Gilgamesh's suit of full plate. On the other hand, the more Nasuverse stories are published, the more it's becoming clear that this setting's history bears very little relationship to that of the real world.

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*** ** So far as I know, the idea that the Sumerians had body armor (other than helmets) is speculation based on artwork, which could just as easily represent fleecy sheepskin (interpreted as scale armor) and spotted hair-on hides (interpreted as appliqued metal discs). In any case, they certainly had nothing resembling Gilgamesh's suit of full plate. On the other hand, the more Nasuverse stories are published, the more it's becoming clear that this setting's history bears very little relationship to that of the real world.



*** Celtic female warriors were actually quite rare, and Roman armies practically never included female fighters. Saber's gender "doesn't matter" for reasons outlined above: Her ideal of kingship as well as the role of Grail War Servants require setting aside basic humanity.

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*** ** Celtic female warriors were actually quite rare, and Roman armies practically never included female fighters. Saber's gender "doesn't matter" for reasons outlined above: Her ideal of kingship as well as the role of Grail War Servants require setting aside basic humanity.



*** The latest [[RetCon Retcons]] have Mordred as a SweetPollyOliver and Bedivere as the "[[DudeLooksLikeALady trap]]".

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*** ** The latest [[RetCon Retcons]] have Mordred as a SweetPollyOliver and Bedivere as the "[[DudeLooksLikeALady trap]]".
17th Aug '16 12:56:01 PM HazelMcCallister
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*** So far as I know, the idea that the Sumerians had body armor (other than helmets) is speculation based on artwork, which could just as easily represent fleecy sheepskin (interpreted as scale armor) and spotted hair-on hides (interpreted as appliqued metal discs). In any case, they certainly had nothing resembling Gilgamesh's suit of full plate. On the other hand, the more Nasuverse stories are published, the more it's becoming clear that this setting's history bears very little relationship to that of the real world.




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*** Celtic female warriors were actually quite rare, and Roman armies practically never included female fighters. Saber's gender "doesn't matter" for reasons outlined above: Her ideal of kingship as well as the role of Grail War Servants require setting aside basic humanity.


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*** The latest [[RetCon Retcons]] have Mordred as a SweetPollyOliver and Bedivere as the "[[DudeLooksLikeALady trap]]".
30th Jul '16 12:42:11 AM 7137
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* WordOfGod states that a Spiritual Body can only be harmed by weapons with magical or conceptual properties. It also states that a Servant can switch between a Material and Spiritual Body. If a Servant didn't want to fight just yet, couldn't they simply turn Spiritual? Noble Phantasms would probably harm them, but not all Servants regularly wield them. Heracles and Medusa clearly don't use their Noble Phantasms as their primary weapons, and the only magic Medusa's have is that can go spiritual as well since she was summoned with them.

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* WordOfGod states that a Spiritual Body can only be harmed by weapons with magical or conceptual properties. It also states that a Servant can switch between a Material and Spiritual Body. If a Servant didn't want to fight just yet, couldn't they simply turn Spiritual? Noble Phantasms would probably harm them, but not all Servants regularly wield them. them; Heracles and Medusa clearly don't use their Noble Phantasms as their primary weapons, and the only magic Medusa's have is that they can go spiritual as well since she was summoned with them.
30th Jul '16 12:40:34 AM 7137
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[[/folder]]
30th Jul '16 12:39:50 AM 7137
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[[folder:Spiritual Body]]

* WordOfGod states that a Spiritual Body can only be harmed by weapons with magical or conceptual properties. It also states that a Servant can switch between a Material and Spiritual Body. If a Servant didn't want to fight just yet, couldn't they simply turn Spiritual? Noble Phantasms would probably harm them, but not all Servants regularly wield them. Heracles and Medusa clearly don't use their Noble Phantasms as their primary weapons, and the only magic Medusa's have is that can go spiritual as well since she was summoned with them.
27th Jul '16 9:02:40 AM FateStayWho
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* So after Rider dies in Unlimited Blade Works and Shirou decides there's no harm in letting Shinji live like in Fate. Unlike in Fate Berserker isn't around to kill so he successfully makes it to the church, and for some reason Kotomine decides to use him in his EvilPlan. For some reason he, or possibly Gilgamesh, decide to change how they are going to summon the Holy Grail from using Illya as she is ripping her heart and putting it into another Magus. And for some reason Kotomine decides to bring Shinji along as an UnwittingPawn and Gilgamesh agrees to pretend to be Servant till they reveal the real plan.

Why do any of this? Kotomine and Gilgamesh don't seem to have any reason to change their plan, and they don't seem to have any reason to bring in Shinji unless they only did it to mess with him, which seems like a lot of effort on Gilgamesh's part since he didn't even seem to Shinji was worth gloating over how he was using him. All this just seemed like a weird change to make UBW have different events from Fate.

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* So after Rider dies in Unlimited Blade Works and Shirou decides there's no harm in letting Shinji live like in Fate. Unlike in Fate Berserker isn't around to kill so he successfully makes it to the church, and for some reason Kotomine decides to use him in his EvilPlan. For some reason he, or possibly Gilgamesh, decide to change how they are going to summon the Holy Grail from using Illya as she is ripping her heart and putting it into another Magus. And for some reason Kotomine decides to bring Shinji along as an UnwittingPawn and Gilgamesh agrees to pretend to be Servant till they reveal the real plan.

plan. Why do any of this? Kotomine and Gilgamesh don't seem to have any reason to change their plan, and they don't seem to have any reason to bring in Shinji unless they only did it to mess with him, which seems like a lot of effort on Gilgamesh's part since he didn't even seem to Shinji was worth gloating over how he was using him. All this just seemed like a weird change to make UBW have different events from Fate.
26th Jul '16 7:52:25 PM FateStayWho
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[[folder:Change of plans in UBW]]

* So after Rider dies in Unlimited Blade Works and Shirou decides there's no harm in letting Shinji live like in Fate. Unlike in Fate Berserker isn't around to kill so he successfully makes it to the church, and for some reason Kotomine decides to use him in his EvilPlan. For some reason he, or possibly Gilgamesh, decide to change how they are going to summon the Holy Grail from using Illya as she is ripping her heart and putting it into another Magus. And for some reason Kotomine decides to bring Shinji along as an UnwittingPawn and Gilgamesh agrees to pretend to be Servant till they reveal the real plan.

Why do any of this? Kotomine and Gilgamesh don't seem to have any reason to change their plan, and they don't seem to have any reason to bring in Shinji unless they only did it to mess with him, which seems like a lot of effort on Gilgamesh's part since he didn't even seem to Shinji was worth gloating over how he was using him. All this just seemed like a weird change to make UBW have different events from Fate.

[[/folder]]

19th Jul '16 9:36:08 AM Discar
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*** And as of Realta Nua, we have an answer. A surprisingly upbeat one given its Nasu. Saber went to Avalon, and Shirou managed to change his version of Archer into someone qualified for the same. Apparently true love can tell the rules of the world to kick it.

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*** ** And as of Realta Nua, we have an answer. A surprisingly upbeat one given its Nasu. Saber went to Avalon, and Shirou managed to change his version of Archer into someone qualified for the same. Apparently true love can tell the rules of the world to kick it.



*** While agreeing that the ending is not a good one since it includes Shirou killing a part of himself as well, I would also point out that Sakura is already ''a rampaging murderer who killed over a dozen people over 2-3 consecutive nights at that point'', Shirou only just realized it. Yes it wasn't her choice, yes he feels guilty for not noticing and helping earlier, yes Rin's jerkassness (which could be another case of CharacterDerailment) went a long way to drive Sakura crazy too, but, love or not, Sakura ''is a murderer'', and one who will not and ''cannot stop'' until she dies, as has been pointed out several times to Shirou, despite him generously filling her up with magical energy. What little humanity she has left at that point is already eroding, and it is a big part of her characterization that she doesn't want it to erode completely but cannot stop the process. At this point, it could be argued easily that it would not only be saving others to kill her then and there, but also allowing her to die while she is still at least in part the Sakura she always was.

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*** ** While agreeing that the ending is not a good one since it includes Shirou killing a part of himself as well, I would also point out that Sakura is already ''a rampaging murderer who killed over a dozen people over 2-3 consecutive nights at that point'', Shirou only just realized it. Yes it wasn't her choice, yes he feels guilty for not noticing and helping earlier, yes Rin's jerkassness (which could be another case of CharacterDerailment) went a long way to drive Sakura crazy too, but, love or not, Sakura ''is a murderer'', and one who will not and ''cannot stop'' until she dies, as has been pointed out several times to Shirou, despite him generously filling her up with magical energy. What little humanity she has left at that point is already eroding, and it is a big part of her characterization that she doesn't want it to erode completely but cannot stop the process. At this point, it could be argued easily that it would not only be saving others to kill her then and there, but also allowing her to die while she is still at least in part the Sakura she always was.
19th Jul '16 8:24:58 AM XFire
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*** And as of Realta Nua, we have an answer. A surprisingly upbeat one given its Nasu. Saber went to Avalon, and Shirou managed to change his version of Archer into someone qualified for the same. Apparently true love can tell the rules of the world to kick it.
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