History Headscratchers / FateStayNight

10th Oct '17 5:34:19 AM lazyboywonder88
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'''WARNING:''' This page contains spoilers.

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'''WARNING:''' ''' This page contains spoilers.


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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Killing sakura]]
* Would of it really have been so bad if shirou and run killed Sakura? Sakura pretty much crosses the moral even horizon with all the people she killed and you can't make the excuse that she was possesseed since she really did turn evil after a while. Shirou was acting extremely selfish by sugarcoating everything sakura did and trying to protect her.
5th Oct '17 3:36:49 PM Shintear
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*** Apparently the Moon Cell in the Extra universe is an all-but-omniscient observer of human history and, rather than a Throne of Heroes that exists separately from the Moon Cell, does indeed compile data of heroic individuals for the purpose of creating Heroic Spirits. Also it's been established through all the different incarnations of the Holy Grail War at this point that most of the grail wars don't have nearly as strict rules when it comes to who is applicable for what (apparently Saber/Extra straight up cheeses her own capabilities to fit into the Saber class).
19th Sep '17 11:04:46 AM HazelMcCallister
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** No, they didn't. They had shields and helmets and ''may'' have begun developing primitive body armor, but Gil's Late Medieval-ish suit of armor is pure fantasy.
** In the Nasuverse, magical things become stronger because they keep getting away more and more from normality. So, the older things are, the more powerful and magical they tend to be., which is why no matter how much you try to improve something it won't reach the level of the older stuff. Since this is one of the most basic rule of the Nasuverse, it is probably very difficult to bend it. It's more like saying that a runner will be first because he went first.

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** No, they didn't. They had shields and helmets and ''may'' have begun developing primitive body armor, but armor. Gil's Late Medieval-ish suit of armor is pure fantasy.
would be totally anachronistic in real-life Sumer; it's there because the Nasuverse has a radically different past from real life.
** In the Nasuverse, magical things become stronger because they keep getting away more and more from normality. So, the older things are, the more powerful and magical they tend to be., be, which is why no matter how much you try to improve something it won't reach the level of the older stuff. Since this is one of the most basic rule of the Nasuverse, it is probably very difficult to bend it. It's more like saying that a runner will be first because he went first.
19th Sep '17 10:42:34 AM HazelMcCallister
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** No, they didn't. They had shields and helmets and ''may'' have begun developing primitive body armor, but Gil's Late Medieval-ish suit of armor is pure fantasy.
27th Jun '17 2:58:00 PM Discar
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So in Fate, when Saber meets the priest from the church for the first time (in one of the bad endings), she seems surprised that he's Kirei, because she thought Kirei had died when Kiritsugu shot him. However, in Heaven's Feel, Saber knows that the priest at the church is Kirei without even meeting him, and warns Shirou that Kiritsugu considered him the most dangerous opponent (but fails to mention that "he won't die if you shoot him, so don't bother trying" or something similar). There's an obvious Doylian explanation for this; Nasu himself has said he "cheated" a little by sometimes having characters subconsciously remember the events of the previous route, influencing their actions so as to form a progressing narrative over all three routes (for example, this is the reason he gave for Gilgamesh not just pursuing Saber again in Unlimited Blade Works). But is there any actual Watsonian explanation for why Saber's memories of the Fourth War are different between Fate and Heaven's Feel, despite the two routes having the same starting point with no obvious divergence in Saber's knowledge?

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* So in Fate, when Saber meets the priest from the church for the first time (in one of the bad endings), she seems surprised that he's Kirei, because she thought Kirei had died when Kiritsugu shot him. However, in Heaven's Feel, Saber knows that the priest at the church is Kirei without even meeting him, and warns Shirou that Kiritsugu considered him the most dangerous opponent (but fails to mention that "he won't die if you shoot him, so don't bother trying" or something similar). There's an obvious Doylian explanation for this; Nasu himself has said he "cheated" a little by sometimes having characters subconsciously remember the events of the previous route, influencing their actions so as to form a progressing narrative over all three routes (for example, this is the reason he gave for Gilgamesh not just pursuing Saber again in Unlimited Blade Works). But is there any actual Watsonian explanation for why Saber's memories of the Fourth War are different between Fate and Heaven's Feel, despite the two routes having the same starting point with no obvious divergence in Saber's knowledge?



If Caster had Rule Breaker, couldn't she have severed the link to her Master (which as we saw still keeps the person alive) right after it was formed too if she didn't like the Master she got? I mean yes I know she is satisfied with hers this time but say it was someone she doesn't like at all. Theoretically she could do it and pursue her own goals right?
* Servants need a Master to stay in the material world. The visual novel explains that the planet considers Servants dangerous anomalies and it actively seeks to erase them. "Anchoring" a Servant to a Master is like a CitizenshipMarriage that keeps the self-correcting nature of the world from deporting them out of existence, which is why Caster immediately started exhibiting sickness-like symptoms the moment she used Rule Breaker on herself. How much time a Masterless Servant can remain in the world is a case-to-case deal and depends heavily on how much Prana they have stored until that point, but as a rule Servants of the Archer class hold on the longest thanks to their Independent Action skill.

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* If Caster had Rule Breaker, couldn't she have severed the link to her Master (which as we saw still keeps the person alive) right after it was formed too if she didn't like the Master she got? I mean yes I know she is satisfied with hers this time but say it was someone she doesn't like at all. Theoretically she could do it and pursue her own goals right?
* ** Servants need a Master to stay in the material world. The visual novel explains that the planet considers Servants dangerous anomalies and it actively seeks to erase them. "Anchoring" a Servant to a Master is like a CitizenshipMarriage that keeps the self-correcting nature of the world from deporting them out of existence, which is why Caster immediately started exhibiting sickness-like symptoms the moment she used Rule Breaker on herself. How much time a Masterless Servant can remain in the world is a case-to-case deal and depends heavily on how much Prana they have stored until that point, but as a rule Servants of the Archer class hold on the longest thanks to their Independent Action skill.
2nd Jun '17 7:34:42 AM HazelMcCallister
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How does Shirou even consider Shinji a friend? He is the first to admit Shinji is a scumbag and has made a habit of fighting him or even beating him up over Shinji beating Sakura, so how? I mean Shirou not outright blaming Shinji for him quitting the archery club is just Shirou (whose logic goes "well it IS a fact it was NOT Shinji who dropped the crate on my shoulder", which is true), but the Sakura case is just glaring as he usually cannot forgive a guy hitting weaker people/girls.

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* How does Shirou even consider Shinji a friend? He is the first to admit Shinji is a scumbag and has made a habit of fighting him or even beating him up over Shinji beating Sakura, so how? I mean Shirou not outright blaming Shinji for him quitting the archery club is just Shirou (whose logic goes "well it IS a fact it was NOT Shinji who dropped the crate on my shoulder", which is true), but the Sakura case is just glaring as he usually cannot forgive a guy hitting weaker people/girls.people/girls.
** Shirou and Shinji's friendship is detailed in ''[[AllThereInTheManual Fate/side material]]'' (you can read the excerpt [[http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Shinji_Matou#cite_note-fsmShinji-1 here]]) and it was definitely an odd one while it lasted. As such, even taking ''side material'' into account, Shinji suffers badly from ShowDontTell, but the upshot is that while he always had a somewhat abrasive personality, he wasn't nearly as bad at the time they met as he is in ''Fate/stay night''. As for the current state of their relationship, Shirou considers them "estranged" since punching him, but he lets Shinji boss him around to a degree simply because he's [[ExtremeDoormat Shirou]].
15th May '17 1:13:39 AM cillianflood
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[[folder:Fuji in HF]]

* Where was Fuji in the Heaven's Feel route? In the other two routes she was hospitalized once the main plot kicked into gear but in HF Shinji doesn't attack the school when its full of people. Sakura even mentions it could be Fuji in the house when Emiya first brings her home yet she just doesn't turn up for the rest of the story until the epilogue (if she didn't show up there we could have presumed the shadow killed her which would have really amplified the civilian loss). I vaguely remember her being busy visiting someone but it was not stressed as a reason why she might be missing for the later half of the story. I mean she is Shirou's legal guardian. You'd imagine even if she was really busy she'd make the effort to check up on him once during the last week especially considering everyone in his freaking neighborhood was randomly dying.

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[[folder:Fuji [[folder:Taiga in HF]]

* Where was Fuji Taiga in the Heaven's Feel route? In the other two routes she was hospitalized once the main plot kicked into gear but in HF Shinji doesn't attack the school when its full of people. Sakura even mentions it could be Fuji Taiga in the house when Emiya Shirou first brings her home yet she just doesn't turn up for the rest of the story until the epilogue (if she didn't show up there we could have presumed the shadow killed her which would have really amplified the civilian loss). I vaguely remember her being busy visiting someone but it was not stressed as a reason why she might be missing for the later half of the story. I mean she is Shirou's legal guardian. You'd imagine even if she was really busy she'd make the effort to check up on him once during the last week especially considering everyone in his freaking neighborhood was randomly dying.
15th May '17 1:11:31 AM cillianflood
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** It's completely in character for Shinji to use the blood fort without caring about Sakura but it is not in Rider's character to simply let it happen. And since Shinji doesn't even have command seals to control her (aside from Sakura's one, obey Shinji like he's your master which as Archer explained actually grants very limited control) there's nothing he could do to stop her.
10th Apr '17 7:29:52 AM akanesarumara
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[[folder: Shirou and Shinji- WithFriendsLikeThese]]
How does Shirou even consider Shinji a friend? He is the first to admit Shinji is a scumbag and has made a habit of fighting him or even beating him up over Shinji beating Sakura, so how? I mean Shirou not outright blaming Shinji for him quitting the archery club is just Shirou (whose logic goes "well it IS a fact it was NOT Shinji who dropped the crate on my shoulder", which is true), but the Sakura case is just glaring as he usually cannot forgive a guy hitting weaker people/girls.
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7th Apr '17 5:16:59 PM MagBas
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[[folder:Superhero ending]]

* Why is the "Superhero" Ending in Heaven's Feel considered to be bad? Yeah killing Sakura sucks, but why is everyone so hung up on not liking or pitying Shirou for it? Why is it bad that one girl has to be killed to save the entire world? Wouldn't that make everyone else evil if they want her to live but everyone else dies instead? This actually fits with how F/SN is all about deconstructing the concept of being a hero and that you can't always save everyone. So by that logic, this ending would fit perfect with that idea. So why is it still wrong in the end?
** I think Shirou choosing to stick with his ideals is considered to be the "wrong" choice because, from a story perspective, his relationship with Sakura is a big part of the plot of Heaven's Feel. So, basically, if Sakura dies, bye bye route. And this is coming from someone who thinks Shirou going from being dedicated to his ideals of saving everyone to being totally cool with killing everyone if it means Sakura stays alive is massive CharacterDerailment, but that's neither here nor there.
** Because he not only doesn't choose Sakura, he also betrays Illya. Shirou will not only end up killing Sakura, he will kill Illya and Rin and everyone else in his way, too. He becomes Kiritsugu, and Kiritsugu deeply regretted what he did in his life.
*** And then finally gets betrayed and killed, and becomes a counter guardian, again to save the world, and finds his only job is to kill, and then attempts to paradox himself out of existence to escape it.
** Yes, Shirou's "save everyone" ideal is heavily flawed. But so is Kiritsugu's "kill one to save many." Remember that Shirou always admired Kiritsugu and his ideals -- but not the Kiritsugu who abandoned his humanity in favor of utilitarian pragmatism. It was the Kiritsugu who saved ''one person'', and through saving that one person, he himself was saved. It was the Kiritsugu who put behind a father ahead of being a mage. It was the smile Kiritsugu had when he saved Shirou. Shirou chased that smile for 10 years. But one of Shirou's problems is that he doesn't take into account himself. He is the person that flight attendants are speaking to when they say, "Put the oxygen mask on yourself before assisting others." The ideal he pursued was his broken way of dealing with the trauma of his past -- the powerlessness, the survivor's guilt, the emptiness. We know the outcome when this path is followed to its conclusion: Archer. He put it ahead of ''everything'' else and in the end was betrayed by it. Indeed, "selflessness" is deconstructed; by being self-less Shirou is selfish. Killing Sakura isn't just about killing one girl; it's both a literal and symbolic turning away from love. When Shirou turns away from love, he gives up any chance of salvation for himself and disregards everyone who cares about him. It doesn't matter whether the ideal is to kill 1 person to save 99 or to try to save all 100 -- it puts the ideal ahead of being a human being. That's why it's still wrong in the end.
** That's still stupid. So what if Shirou decides to save Sakura? ''Putting billions of innocent human lives at risk is WAY more selfish.'' It's not exactly admirable to be so selfish that you're willing to kill off most of humanity just to save Sakura. Yeah Shirou needed to get past his problems, but there's a proper time and place for it! Not when the fate of the entire world is at stake. The right thing to have done would have been to kill her.
** He's in love. Love makes you do stupid things. Simple as that. If you want more detail, Once Shirou realised that keeping his ideal meant losing the girl he loves, he threw it away. You might call this character derailment, seeing as he kept his ideal for ten years before throwing it away on a whim, but again, he's in love. Pretty sure he's never experienced it before also. Besides, he feels massive guilt for failing to notice Sakura's suffering for the entire year and a half she was coming to his place. Sakura being a person he knows and loves makes her suffering more personal for him than the suffering of everyone else. Say what you will about Shirou, but you'd probably do the same if it was someone you cared about in Sakura's position.
** So the message is... "Fuck the world, as long as I get mine?" How is this supposed to be a good thing? This just makes Shirou a selfish monster who would rather let the world burn then give up Sakura. That's objectively ''worse'' then sticking to his ideal.
** I think your definition of 'monster' needs reworking. While I agree that the right thing to do in any situation is the thing that gives the best outcome for the most people, killing Sakura is at the very least a dickish move. Yes, she's the host to an evil power that will kill many people and potentially destroy the world, but none of it is her fault. Shirou is crushed by guilt for failing to notice Sakura's suffering and shrugging off Shinji's abuse as 'a family thing'. And at the point in the story the choice occurs, Sakura is still a ways off succumbing to Angra Manyu. Sure, the Shadow is killing people every night, but neither Rin nor Shirou knows that it's Sakura's repressed psyche at this point, so its not far-fetched for Shirou to think there is a way to save her before she loses herself. He does lie to himself quite a lot and pretend things will be fine if Sakura just rests, but this is one of his main personality traits, so it's in character. Hell, you think Shirou is a monster for putting her first? By extension does that mean you agree with Rin's borderline cruel behaviour towards Sakura, wanting to kill her own sister without emotion or concern? Killing Sakura being the right decision doesn't make it a moral act. Even if it saves peoples lives it is still an act of cruelty towards a girl who's been put through hell for 11 years. That's why people regard it as a bad ending.
** What's more moral: Saving billions of humans or just one? It comes down to simple math. The needs of the many and all that.
** Okay, so I figured if I'm going to argue with you about this I'd better actually watch the ending. I have a hard time understanding why you don't see it as a bad end. Not only do my original points still apply, but its outright stated that Shirou has become like Kiritsugu as a result of willingly allowing Sakura to be killed. In order to carry out his ideal he cuts off the empathetic part of himself. He betrays Ilya by becoming like Kiritsugu. He betrays Sakura by allowing Rin to kill her. Kotomine tells him that now that he doesn't have any limitations to what he is willing to do to win he will kill everyone in his way to reach the holy Grail and destroy it, and Shirou agrees. He becomes a merciless pragmatist, and while that would be a refreshing break from his more overt WideEyedIdealist tendencies, he has become the embodiment of everything he despises about Archer, his future self. How is this a good ending in any context? And regarding the needs of the many, I happen to agree, but the situation is such that neither course of action is a moral act. Because no matter which option you choose you are signing someone's death sentence. Look at it this way: providing I didn't personally know any of them I can agree that sacrificing a million to save a billion is the option that saves the most people, but the fact remains that even if it is technically the correct option, you're still responsible for the deaths of a million people. That fact remains if we're talking a million people or just one. You can't claim that its moral. And the fact is that even if it is just one person, the rules change if that one person is someone you care about. You're going to lose a part of yourself if you choose to kill them, no matter how many you'd be saving.
** While agreeing that the ending is not a good one since it includes Shirou killing a part of himself as well, I would also point out that Sakura is already ''a rampaging murderer who killed over a dozen people over 2-3 consecutive nights at that point'', Shirou only just realized it. Yes it wasn't her choice, yes he feels guilty for not noticing and helping earlier, yes Rin's jerkassness (which could be another case of CharacterDerailment) went a long way to drive Sakura crazy too, but, love or not, Sakura ''is a murderer'', and one who will not and ''cannot stop'' until she dies, as has been pointed out several times to Shirou, despite him generously filling her up with magical energy. What little humanity she has left at that point is already eroding, and it is a big part of her characterization that she doesn't want it to erode completely but cannot stop the process. At this point, it could be argued easily that it would not only be saving others to kill her then and there, but also allowing her to die while she is still at least in part the Sakura she always was.
*** No, Sakura is not a ''murderer'' because she is not the one fully in control of her actions. The majority of responsibility for those deaths rests solely on the thing using her as a meat suit, and it would be wrong to punish her for it.
*** Like I said, I know she cannot help it. The point still stands as she cannot ''stop'' it either, and she is begging for someone to end it for her. Killing her at this point would be 1, honouring that wish, 2, as I said, a MercyKill and allowing her to die as herself.
** This talk of a billion versus one is a strawman argument. The choice is not between allowing billions to die or killing one girl. The choice is between kill one girl to save billions or find a way to save both. The fact is that another way existed and choosing to become Kiritsugu ended up blinding Shirou to finding a way that preserved his loved ones AND saved billions of people. That was objectively the best outcome and it is only possible if you are willing to ''look'' for it.
** Simple, because Shirou dies soon after that end. He has no servant, no projection, a psychotic Rin after him, Ilya after him, and in general hated by everyone. Even if he makes it to the end by some asspull miracle, Kirei will just kill him and awaken Angra Mainyu like he wanted

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[[folder:Gender Flip]]

* What is with all the {{Gender Flip}}s? I actually found Arturia pretty damn novel, but now that the franchise has progressed we've also got Nero, Francis Drake, and Jack the Ripper. And I'm only willing to forgive Jack the Ripper, because at least his real identity is still a mystery.
** Apparently, within the universe of Fate/extra, it's possible to summon a male spirit in the body of a female.
** Actually, the true answer is apparently that [[spoiler:at some point, Elizabeth and Drake decided to swap places]].

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