History Headscratchers / FateStayNight

27th Jul '16 9:02:40 AM FateStayWho
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* So after Rider dies in Unlimited Blade Works and Shirou decides there's no harm in letting Shinji live like in Fate. Unlike in Fate Berserker isn't around to kill so he successfully makes it to the church, and for some reason Kotomine decides to use him in his EvilPlan. For some reason he, or possibly Gilgamesh, decide to change how they are going to summon the Holy Grail from using Illya as she is ripping her heart and putting it into another Magus. And for some reason Kotomine decides to bring Shinji along as an UnwittingPawn and Gilgamesh agrees to pretend to be Servant till they reveal the real plan.

Why do any of this? Kotomine and Gilgamesh don't seem to have any reason to change their plan, and they don't seem to have any reason to bring in Shinji unless they only did it to mess with him, which seems like a lot of effort on Gilgamesh's part since he didn't even seem to Shinji was worth gloating over how he was using him. All this just seemed like a weird change to make UBW have different events from Fate.

to:

* So after Rider dies in Unlimited Blade Works and Shirou decides there's no harm in letting Shinji live like in Fate. Unlike in Fate Berserker isn't around to kill so he successfully makes it to the church, and for some reason Kotomine decides to use him in his EvilPlan. For some reason he, or possibly Gilgamesh, decide to change how they are going to summon the Holy Grail from using Illya as she is ripping her heart and putting it into another Magus. And for some reason Kotomine decides to bring Shinji along as an UnwittingPawn and Gilgamesh agrees to pretend to be Servant till they reveal the real plan.

plan. Why do any of this? Kotomine and Gilgamesh don't seem to have any reason to change their plan, and they don't seem to have any reason to bring in Shinji unless they only did it to mess with him, which seems like a lot of effort on Gilgamesh's part since he didn't even seem to Shinji was worth gloating over how he was using him. All this just seemed like a weird change to make UBW have different events from Fate.
26th Jul '16 7:52:25 PM FateStayWho
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to:

[[folder:Change of plans in UBW]]

* So after Rider dies in Unlimited Blade Works and Shirou decides there's no harm in letting Shinji live like in Fate. Unlike in Fate Berserker isn't around to kill so he successfully makes it to the church, and for some reason Kotomine decides to use him in his EvilPlan. For some reason he, or possibly Gilgamesh, decide to change how they are going to summon the Holy Grail from using Illya as she is ripping her heart and putting it into another Magus. And for some reason Kotomine decides to bring Shinji along as an UnwittingPawn and Gilgamesh agrees to pretend to be Servant till they reveal the real plan.

Why do any of this? Kotomine and Gilgamesh don't seem to have any reason to change their plan, and they don't seem to have any reason to bring in Shinji unless they only did it to mess with him, which seems like a lot of effort on Gilgamesh's part since he didn't even seem to Shinji was worth gloating over how he was using him. All this just seemed like a weird change to make UBW have different events from Fate.

[[/folder]]

19th Jul '16 9:36:08 AM Discar
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*** And as of Realta Nua, we have an answer. A surprisingly upbeat one given its Nasu. Saber went to Avalon, and Shirou managed to change his version of Archer into someone qualified for the same. Apparently true love can tell the rules of the world to kick it.

to:

*** ** And as of Realta Nua, we have an answer. A surprisingly upbeat one given its Nasu. Saber went to Avalon, and Shirou managed to change his version of Archer into someone qualified for the same. Apparently true love can tell the rules of the world to kick it.



*** While agreeing that the ending is not a good one since it includes Shirou killing a part of himself as well, I would also point out that Sakura is already ''a rampaging murderer who killed over a dozen people over 2-3 consecutive nights at that point'', Shirou only just realized it. Yes it wasn't her choice, yes he feels guilty for not noticing and helping earlier, yes Rin's jerkassness (which could be another case of CharacterDerailment) went a long way to drive Sakura crazy too, but, love or not, Sakura ''is a murderer'', and one who will not and ''cannot stop'' until she dies, as has been pointed out several times to Shirou, despite him generously filling her up with magical energy. What little humanity she has left at that point is already eroding, and it is a big part of her characterization that she doesn't want it to erode completely but cannot stop the process. At this point, it could be argued easily that it would not only be saving others to kill her then and there, but also allowing her to die while she is still at least in part the Sakura she always was.

to:

*** ** While agreeing that the ending is not a good one since it includes Shirou killing a part of himself as well, I would also point out that Sakura is already ''a rampaging murderer who killed over a dozen people over 2-3 consecutive nights at that point'', Shirou only just realized it. Yes it wasn't her choice, yes he feels guilty for not noticing and helping earlier, yes Rin's jerkassness (which could be another case of CharacterDerailment) went a long way to drive Sakura crazy too, but, love or not, Sakura ''is a murderer'', and one who will not and ''cannot stop'' until she dies, as has been pointed out several times to Shirou, despite him generously filling her up with magical energy. What little humanity she has left at that point is already eroding, and it is a big part of her characterization that she doesn't want it to erode completely but cannot stop the process. At this point, it could be argued easily that it would not only be saving others to kill her then and there, but also allowing her to die while she is still at least in part the Sakura she always was.
19th Jul '16 8:24:58 AM XFire
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to:

*** And as of Realta Nua, we have an answer. A surprisingly upbeat one given its Nasu. Saber went to Avalon, and Shirou managed to change his version of Archer into someone qualified for the same. Apparently true love can tell the rules of the world to kick it.
3rd Jul '16 7:21:31 AM akanesarumara
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** To put it simply and to bring up something I think was not mentioned on that page... he's someone who ''makes'' swords, not one who ''wields'' them.
27th Jun '16 4:47:44 AM akanesarumara
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Added DiffLines:

*** While agreeing that the ending is not a good one since it includes Shirou killing a part of himself as well, I would also point out that Sakura is already ''a rampaging murderer who killed over a dozen people over 2-3 consecutive nights at that point'', Shirou only just realized it. Yes it wasn't her choice, yes he feels guilty for not noticing and helping earlier, yes Rin's jerkassness (which could be another case of CharacterDerailment) went a long way to drive Sakura crazy too, but, love or not, Sakura ''is a murderer'', and one who will not and ''cannot stop'' until she dies, as has been pointed out several times to Shirou, despite him generously filling her up with magical energy. What little humanity she has left at that point is already eroding, and it is a big part of her characterization that she doesn't want it to erode completely but cannot stop the process. At this point, it could be argued easily that it would not only be saving others to kill her then and there, but also allowing her to die while she is still at least in part the Sakura she always was.
2nd Jun '16 10:12:08 AM Willbyr
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** How did [[{{Tsukihime}} Satsuki]] have enough magic power to become a vampire almost instantly and have a Reality Marble herself? Parentage might be a factor in some cases, but since even the children of mundanes (Shirou, Satsuki, Elesia a.k.a. Ciel) can be born with insane powers, it's not the be-all and end-all.

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** How did [[{{Tsukihime}} [[VisualNovel/{{Tsukihime}} Satsuki]] have enough magic power to become a vampire almost instantly and have a Reality Marble herself? Parentage might be a factor in some cases, but since even the children of mundanes (Shirou, Satsuki, Elesia a.k.a. Ciel) can be born with insane powers, it's not the be-all and end-all.



** It took the use of Archer's arm and nearly killed him, but yes... the thing is, though, Zelretch is still an earthly weapon. It's a point Shirou shares in common with [[{{Tsukihime}} Shiki]]; neither can understand their chosen aspect (building materials/weaponry and concept of death) for anything originating outside Gaia. Or, to put it another way: Archer explicitly can't project Ea, and he's pretty much a blacksmith god by now.

to:

** It took the use of Archer's arm and nearly killed him, but yes... the thing is, though, Zelretch is still an earthly weapon. It's a point Shirou shares in common with [[{{Tsukihime}} [[VisualNovel/{{Tsukihime}} Shiki]]; neither can understand their chosen aspect (building materials/weaponry and concept of death) for anything originating outside Gaia. Or, to put it another way: Archer explicitly can't project Ea, and he's pretty much a blacksmith god by now.



** There actually ''is'' another way for someone to escape the cycle, after a fashion. It involves imprinting your soul with your personality and memory (a.k.a. [[{{Tsukihime}} the Roa method]]). It's imperfect, but it works.

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** There actually ''is'' another way for someone to escape the cycle, after a fashion. It involves imprinting your soul with your personality and memory (a.k.a. [[{{Tsukihime}} [[VisualNovel/{{Tsukihime}} the Roa method]]). It's imperfect, but it works.



** I got the impression that she wasn't entirely sure it would work, and it took a desperate situation to force her hand (and Shirou's and Saber's, as well). Not sure ''why'' she wouldn't be sure, since that's apparently how Kuzuki (a non-mage) saved Caster (and elsewhere, how [[{{Tsukihime}} Shiki saved Len]])...maybe it's just a gap in her knowledge.

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** I got the impression that she wasn't entirely sure it would work, and it took a desperate situation to force her hand (and Shirou's and Saber's, as well). Not sure ''why'' she wouldn't be sure, since that's apparently how Kuzuki (a non-mage) saved Caster (and elsewhere, how [[{{Tsukihime}} [[VisualNovel/{{Tsukihime}} Shiki saved Len]])...maybe it's just a gap in her knowledge.
24th May '16 9:13:54 PM MaybeSpiderman
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** It's also a pun. Japanese has no V-sound, so V is often transcribed as B instead. Of course, 'seibaa' is obviously a transcription of 'saber', but if you remember that B can also be transcribed from V, you get the other meaning - saver. Saber-class servants are the strongest servants, pretty much always making it to the final battles of the Grail Wars, so a Master with a Saber-class Servant could be said to have been saved from the War.
6th May '16 2:50:55 AM WolfWitness
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** This is going to a bit of a hassle to explain but I'll it give a shot. Basically AllMythsAreTrue BEFORE Gilgamesh unleashed the Bull of Heaven and ending the Age of the Gods. Anything that happens after Gilgamesh that involves Divinity (i.e. Norse, Egyptian,Greek Mythology and such) are just human fabrications for the most part, hence why ol' Goldy has weapons supposedly made by gods in the Gate of Babylon when it's supposed to hold only the treasures of humanity. Yes, this is the official Nasuverse stance and yes, I find it a rather lame way to keep Gilgamesh on top.

to:

** This is going to be a bit of a hassle to explain but I'll it give a shot. Basically AllMythsAreTrue BEFORE Gilgamesh unleashed the Bull of Heaven and ending the Age of the Gods. Anything that happens after Gilgamesh that involves Divinity (i.e. Norse, Egyptian,Greek Mythology and such) are just human fabrications for the most part, hence why ol' Goldy has weapons supposedly made by gods in the Gate of Babylon when it's supposed to hold only the treasures of humanity. Yes, this is the official Nasuverse stance and yes, I find it a rather lame way to keep Gilgamesh on top.
6th May '16 2:27:25 AM WolfWitness
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to:

** This is going to a bit of a hassle to explain but I'll it give a shot. Basically AllMythsAreTrue BEFORE Gilgamesh unleashed the Bull of Heaven and ending the Age of the Gods. Anything that happens after Gilgamesh that involves Divinity (i.e. Norse, Egyptian,Greek Mythology and such) are just human fabrications for the most part, hence why ol' Goldy has weapons supposedly made by gods in the Gate of Babylon when it's supposed to hold only the treasures of humanity. Yes, this is the official Nasuverse stance and yes, I find it a rather lame way to keep Gilgamesh on top.
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