History Headscratchers / FateStayNight

19th Mar '17 3:22:15 PM Abyssal
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Archer is basically a prime example of WeakButSkilled. His stats are noticeably sub-par for one of the knight classes, so instead he relies upon years of experience, pragmatism, and his box of tricks that is Unlimited Blade Works. And even then, the only Servant he has a distinct advantage over in melee is True Assassin, who is explicitly unsuited for frontal combat.

to:

** Archer is basically a prime example of WeakButSkilled. His stats are noticeably sub-par for one of the knight classes, so instead he relies upon years of experience, experience and pragmatism, and as well as the variety of weapons at his box of tricks that is Unlimited Blade Works. disposal. And even then, the only Servant Servants he has a distinct advantage over in melee is are Caster and True Assassin, who is are explicitly unsuited for frontal combat.
18th Mar '17 4:18:58 AM Andrzej
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

* Servants need a Master to stay in the material world. The visual novel explains that the planet considers Servants dangerous anomalies and it actively seeks to erase them. "Anchoring" a Servant to a Master is like a CitizenshipMarriage that keeps the self-correcting nature of the world from deporting them out of existence, which is why Caster immediately started exhibiting sickness-like symptoms the moment she used Rule Breaker on herself. How much time a Masterless Servant can remain in the world is a case-to-case deal and depends heavily on how much Prana they have stored until that point, but as a rule Servants of the Archer class hold on the longest thanks to their Independent Action skill.
17th Mar '17 11:44:16 PM akanesarumara
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

[[folder:Caster and Rule Breaker]]
If Caster had Rule Breaker, couldn't she have severed the link to her Master (which as we saw still keeps the person alive) right after it was formed too if she didn't like the Master she got? I mean yes I know she is satisfied with hers this time but say it was someone she doesn't like at all. Theoretically she could do it and pursue her own goals right?

[[/folder]]
16th Mar '17 7:32:31 PM nombretomado
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Well, the ending of the Fate route. Shirou uses his command spell on Saber and together, they destroy the Holy Grail, like it was done ten years ago. Later, we get a shot of Arturia, after the battle in her own time, finally peacefully [[strike:falling asleep]] [[TearJerker dying]]...so, what happens next to her? Technically, she destroyed the Holy Grail, just like ten years ago, under the influence of a command spell. It's just that this time, she was willing to do it anyway. Does this nullify her contract? Or does willingly destroying it qualify as getting the Holy Grail for the contract, since she wasn't stuck anymore in time? But now, what's going to happen to her? Does her part of the contract appear fulfilled, so she'll now be a normal Heroic Spirit, like all the others? (She'd also keep her memories of her encounter with Shirou, etc., since she was technically alive all the time, no?) If so, couldn't Shirou just train magic like crazy and then recreate Avalon to summon the girl he loves again? He should be able to find SOME way to keep her magical thirst sustained if he tries hard enough...if Arturia doesn't become a Heroic Spirit, what happens to her soul, then? Does it go to Avalon? Or simply to whatever the place is called the souls of the dead go to in the NasuVerse, if there is one? Her soul isn't simply going to vanish, is it?

to:

* Well, the ending of the Fate route. Shirou uses his command spell on Saber and together, they destroy the Holy Grail, like it was done ten years ago. Later, we get a shot of Arturia, after the battle in her own time, finally peacefully [[strike:falling asleep]] [[TearJerker dying]]...so, what happens next to her? Technically, she destroyed the Holy Grail, just like ten years ago, under the influence of a command spell. It's just that this time, she was willing to do it anyway. Does this nullify her contract? Or does willingly destroying it qualify as getting the Holy Grail for the contract, since she wasn't stuck anymore in time? But now, what's going to happen to her? Does her part of the contract appear fulfilled, so she'll now be a normal Heroic Spirit, like all the others? (She'd also keep her memories of her encounter with Shirou, etc., since she was technically alive all the time, no?) If so, couldn't Shirou just train magic like crazy and then recreate Avalon to summon the girl he loves again? He should be able to find SOME way to keep her magical thirst sustained if he tries hard enough...if Arturia doesn't become a Heroic Spirit, what happens to her soul, then? Does it go to Avalon? Or simply to whatever the place is called the souls of the dead go to in the NasuVerse, {{Franchise/Nasuverse}}, if there is one? Her soul isn't simply going to vanish, is it?



** To write out Archer's life is to basically open up an entire new timeline. That would be far too much trouble for what it's worth. Imagine, for example, if Archer's story expanded the NasuVerse timeline by fifty years. Now, imagine if ''Tsukihime 2'' is released afterwards, and set ten years after the current timeline's present, and happens to involve an invasion of dragons that completely changes the political landscape of the Church and Mage Institute. Now, you'd then have to fit an explanation of why this invasion of dragons doesn't occur in Archer's timeline, which would then cause a snowball effect as you have to explain why everything else that then happens after ''Tsukihime 2'' in the main timeline doesn't happen in Archer's timeline. Basically, you've opened up an entire new continuity. It's different for games with multiple routes like ''Fate'' or ''Tsukihime'', since branching events explain why the villains of each route are different and explanations in each route also expand upon events that happened in the other routes. You wouldn't have this interdependency if you wrote a light novel about Archer's life, you'd have a massive ContinuitySnarl and massive restrictions on the changes you could bring to the main Nasuverse timeline. Imagine if Heaven's Feel had Type Mercury show up for no reason and blow everything up, and then Shirou had to learn the mystic ways of frogs to defeat it. The question would then be, "Why doesn't the mystic ways of frogs come up in other routes''?

to:

** To write out Archer's life is to basically open up an entire new timeline. That would be far too much trouble for what it's worth. Imagine, for example, if Archer's story expanded the NasuVerse {{Franchise/Nasuverse}} timeline by fifty years. Now, imagine if ''Tsukihime 2'' is released afterwards, and set ten years after the current timeline's present, and happens to involve an invasion of dragons that completely changes the political landscape of the Church and Mage Institute. Now, you'd then have to fit an explanation of why this invasion of dragons doesn't occur in Archer's timeline, which would then cause a snowball effect as you have to explain why everything else that then happens after ''Tsukihime 2'' in the main timeline doesn't happen in Archer's timeline. Basically, you've opened up an entire new continuity. It's different for games with multiple routes like ''Fate'' or ''Tsukihime'', since branching events explain why the villains of each route are different and explanations in each route also expand upon events that happened in the other routes. You wouldn't have this interdependency if you wrote a light novel about Archer's life, you'd have a massive ContinuitySnarl and massive restrictions on the changes you could bring to the main Nasuverse timeline. Imagine if Heaven's Feel had Type Mercury show up for no reason and blow everything up, and then Shirou had to learn the mystic ways of frogs to defeat it. The question would then be, "Why doesn't the mystic ways of frogs come up in other routes''?



** Short answer: Who? Long answer: Gil's all about killing people, not ruling them (not considering most of the world worthwhile, especially after Enkidu's death); he's a darwinist, not a conqueror. He's a better fit because he's still the oldest hero, and is all about the supernatural connections. As for storywise, I wouldn't doubt that Sargon is a Heroic Spirit in the {{Nasuverse}}, but his legacy is less well-known (though admittedly, how many people know Diarmuid Ua Duibhne?), and he has less of a reason to be summoned than the huge conqueror hero, Iskander, who ''still'' wants to conquer the world.

to:

** Short answer: Who? Long answer: Gil's all about killing people, not ruling them (not considering most of the world worthwhile, especially after Enkidu's death); he's a darwinist, not a conqueror. He's a better fit because he's still the oldest hero, and is all about the supernatural connections. As for storywise, I wouldn't doubt that Sargon is a Heroic Spirit in the {{Nasuverse}}, {{Franchise/Nasuverse}}, but his legacy is less well-known (though admittedly, how many people know Diarmuid Ua Duibhne?), and he has less of a reason to be summoned than the huge conqueror hero, Iskander, who ''still'' wants to conquer the world.



** A ''magic'' F-15. Incidentally, Gil doesn't have ''every'' weapon in the world. He just has weapons that existed in his time. This is why he doesn't have Excalibur, since Excalibur was constructed by Earth's fairies after his death. Incidentally, the NasuVerse is an AlternateUniverse. Gil at one point states that (paraphrased) "the appearance is different, but the basic principles remain the same", indicating that Babylon was apparently ''just as advanced'', if in a different fashion, as the modern age.

to:

** A ''magic'' F-15. Incidentally, Gil doesn't have ''every'' weapon in the world. He just has weapons that existed in his time. This is why he doesn't have Excalibur, since Excalibur was constructed by Earth's fairies after his death. Incidentally, the NasuVerse {{Franchise/Nasuverse}} is an AlternateUniverse. Gil at one point states that (paraphrased) "the appearance is different, but the basic principles remain the same", indicating that Babylon was apparently ''just as advanced'', if in a different fashion, as the modern age.



** In the NasuVerse, the World doesn't just refer to the planetary body, it refers to the set of rules that reality on Earth runs on. On Earth, one plus one equals two, black is black and white is white. The World is basically just the full-scale version of the Reality Marbles that certain beings in the NasuVerse can manifest. Type Mercury, the Ultimate Being from Mercury, can override this World with his own Mercurial World, turning everything crystalline, and in that World, the rules are different. Ea's destructive force comes from the fact that it twists space and time to obliterate its target, instead of just using the rules of the World to destroy things like, say, somebody with the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. That is probably why it's called anti-''World''; it breaks the fabric the World is made from. I imagine Type Mercury might be vulnerable to Ea, though probably capable of bringing just as much force to bear.

to:

** In the NasuVerse, {{Franchise/Nasuverse}}, the World doesn't just refer to the planetary body, it refers to the set of rules that reality on Earth runs on. On Earth, one plus one equals two, black is black and white is white. The World is basically just the full-scale version of the Reality Marbles that certain beings in the NasuVerse Nasuverse can manifest. Type Mercury, the Ultimate Being from Mercury, can override this World with his own Mercurial World, turning everything crystalline, and in that World, the rules are different. Ea's destructive force comes from the fact that it twists space and time to obliterate its target, instead of just using the rules of the World to destroy things like, say, somebody with the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. That is probably why it's called anti-''World''; it breaks the fabric the World is made from. I imagine Type Mercury might be vulnerable to Ea, though probably capable of bringing just as much force to bear.



** From a historical perspective, he's not enough of a legendary character and not quite enough of a historical character. There are just enough discrepancies in accounts of him for the idea of Kojirou being fictional to be plausible. From a dramatic perspective, it makes Assassin (a nameless spirit with only three weeks of life) that much more of a tragic character... and also more of a badass (he comes up with a Noble Phantasm-level technique ''on his own'', while basically standing around bored). On another note, if my [[WMG/FateStayNight guess]] is correct, there actually was ''a'' Sasaki Kojirou in the {{Nasuverse}}, since his sword, Monohoshizao, existed...he just wasn't ''the'' Sasaki Kojirou, Musashi Miyamoto's legendary rival.

to:

** From a historical perspective, he's not enough of a legendary character and not quite enough of a historical character. There are just enough discrepancies in accounts of him for the idea of Kojirou being fictional to be plausible. From a dramatic perspective, it makes Assassin (a nameless spirit with only three weeks of life) that much more of a tragic character... and also more of a badass (he comes up with a Noble Phantasm-level technique ''on his own'', while basically standing around bored). On another note, if my [[WMG/FateStayNight guess]] is correct, there actually was ''a'' Sasaki Kojirou in the {{Nasuverse}}, {{Franchise/Nasuverse}}, since his sword, Monohoshizao, existed...he just wasn't ''the'' Sasaki Kojirou, Musashi Miyamoto's legendary rival.
28th Jan '17 7:17:17 PM zaphod77
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** And then finally gets betrayed and killed, and becomes a counter guardian, again to save the world, and finds his only job is to kill, and then attempts to paradox himself out of existence to escape it.
14th Jan '17 4:50:17 AM akanesarumara
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

**** Like I said, I know she cannot help it. The point still stands as she cannot ''stop'' it either, and she is begging for someone to end it for her. Killing her at this point would be 1, honouring that wish, 2, as I said, a MercyKill and allowing her to die as herself.
28th Nov '16 5:39:34 AM MrCairo
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** Word of God is that Zero is actually a slightly different timeline to any of the Stay Night routes, excusing the discrepancies in the typical Nasuverse "everything is canon in a parallel universe" way.


Added DiffLines:

[[folder:Saber's Memories]]

So in Fate, when Saber meets the priest from the church for the first time (in one of the bad endings), she seems surprised that he's Kirei, because she thought Kirei had died when Kiritsugu shot him. However, in Heaven's Feel, Saber knows that the priest at the church is Kirei without even meeting him, and warns Shirou that Kiritsugu considered him the most dangerous opponent (but fails to mention that "he won't die if you shoot him, so don't bother trying" or something similar). There's an obvious Doylian explanation for this; Nasu himself has said he "cheated" a little by sometimes having characters subconsciously remember the events of the previous route, influencing their actions so as to form a progressing narrative over all three routes (for example, this is the reason he gave for Gilgamesh not just pursuing Saber again in Unlimited Blade Works). But is there any actual Watsonian explanation for why Saber's memories of the Fourth War are different between Fate and Heaven's Feel, despite the two routes having the same starting point with no obvious divergence in Saber's knowledge?

[[/folder]]
16th Nov '16 8:19:45 AM dlchen145
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** I think you're giving Shinji too much credit. Look at the fight in Fate where Shirou forces him to cancel the Blood Fort -- even after Shirou goes all {{Badass}} {{Determinator}}, kicks his ass, and starts choking him, Shinji's first instinct is to assume that Shirou couldn't possibly bring himself to kill him. He just doesn't take Shirou seriously. (Now that I think about it, that's probably why he offered Shirou an alliance in the first place -- he wanted a partner he thought was a pushover.)

to:

** I think you're giving Shinji too much credit. Look at the fight in Fate where Shirou forces him to cancel the Blood Fort -- even after Shirou goes all {{Badass}} badass {{Determinator}}, kicks his ass, and starts choking him, Shinji's first instinct is to assume that Shirou couldn't possibly bring himself to kill him. He just doesn't take Shirou seriously. (Now that I think about it, that's probably why he offered Shirou an alliance in the first place -- he wanted a partner he thought was a pushover.)
15th Nov '16 10:07:01 AM WhimsicalButterfly
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** No dice. Remember how Shirou's Tracing works: he copies any sword (or bladed weapon in general) the moment he sees it. A derived sword from Excalibur probably exists, but Shirou's never seen that sword so he can't Trace it. He calls it "The greatest Noble Phantasm I know of", and that can only point to Excalibur (he doesn't fight Gilgamesh in HF). Finally, he doesn't freeze when he first sees Excalibur in Fate (he started freaking when he saw Ea); in fact, he seemed to understand its name before Saber even called it out. Cheap bootleg or not, Shirou definitely projected Excalibur in HF's Normal End.
17th Oct '16 10:31:26 AM RedDingo
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** No, Sakura is not a ''murderer'' because she is not the one fully in control of her actions. The majority of responsibility for those deaths rests solely on the thing using her as a meat suit, and it would be wrong to punish her for it.
** This talk of a billion versus one is a strawman argument. The choice is not between allowing billions to die or killing one girl. The choice is between kill one girl to save billions or find a way to save both. The fact is that another way existed and choosing to become Kiritsugu ended up blinding Shirou to finding a way that preserved his loved ones AND saved billions of people. That was objectively the best outcome and it is only possible if you are willing to ''look'' for it.


Added DiffLines:

This list shows the last 10 events of 373. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.FateStayNight