History Headscratchers / Dragonageii

21st Apr '18 8:05:53 PM EnchantedSwan
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Also, in the Templar side, Carver said that they were gonna arrest the Champion? Why would he do that if Hawke were on their side?

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Also, in the Templar side, Carver said that they were gonna arrest the Champion? Why would he do say that if Hawke were was on their side?
21st Apr '18 8:05:25 PM EnchantedSwan
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[[folder:Why did Cullen ultimately turn against Meredith?]]
At the final battle, Cullen refuses to attack Hawke and instead sides with them against Meredith. Now, I can understand why he would do that if you were on the Templars' side, but what about the Mages? For much of DAII, Cullen was clearly firm in his stance of hunting down dangerous mages, and if Hawke supports the Mages, then Cullen would have absolutely no reason to oppose Meredith. Why would he instead choose to arrest someone that clearly would not want to be taken prisoner? Why would he call it too far?

Also, in the Templar side, Carver said that they were gonna arrest the Champion? Why would he do that if Hawke were on their side?
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13th Mar '18 5:22:53 AM GriffinPilgrim
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*** A body that was mauled by spiders is going to look very different to one slashed across the neck with a knife. It's not a lie that could be maintained.


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*** It was there to be a side quest, one that (like a lot from Act 1) provided cash rewards and a complicated bit of morality. Not all of them have to come back later; the kid working for Athenril never reappears again except for a letter in Act 2, neither of the former/falsely accused werewolf or the elves threatening him show up again etc. If absolutely every situation Hawke encounters in his/her effort to fund the expedition turned out to be important years later that would be slightly absurd. As for the magistrate I'm pretty sure he would have come after Hawke had Hawke not suddenly become one of the richest and most influential people in the city shortly afterwards.
9th Mar '18 7:07:25 AM LadyNorbert
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** Since the magistrate never makes good on his threat to ruin Hawke, ''what even was the point of the quest''? Except for the fact that Lia (the rescued elf girl) joins the city guard later if Hawke kills Kelder, this quest has absolutely no bearing on the rest of the game whatsoever. I don't think it even affects companion approval levels. Why was it in there at all?

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** Since the magistrate never makes good on his threat to ruin Hawke, ''what even was the point of the quest''? Except for the fact that Lia (the rescued elf girl) joins the city guard later if Hawke kills Kelder, this quest has absolutely no bearing on the rest of the game whatsoever. I don't think it even affects companion approval levels. Why was it in there at all?
8th Mar '18 9:41:54 PM LadyNorbert
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** Yep. Again, Fereldan is not influential on a world stage, what happens there barely matters to the rest of the world. Orlais may have court mages but even with that small concession the Templars there are barely better than in Kirkwall. The Divine may be the head of the religion but that doesn't mean she's in total control. Witness real world events, like the row in the Church of England over gay bishops. The Archbishop of Canterbury was in favour but he couldn't persuade many hardline clergy to agree. The Templars behave similarly towards the Divine. Hell, in ''Rise Of The Seeker'' the Knight-Commander of Orlais actualy plotted to have the Divine killed and replaced by the Grand Cleric of Orlais as both felt the Divine was too lax on mages. The problem is too endemic for her to fix and certainly too endemic for the new king of a minor country to change.

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** Yep. Again, Fereldan is not influential on a world stage, what happens there barely matters to the rest of the world. Orlais may have court mages but even with that small concession the Templars there are barely better than in Kirkwall. The Divine may be the head of the religion but that doesn't mean she's in total control. Witness real world events, like the row in the Church of England over gay bishops. The Archbishop of Canterbury was in favour but he couldn't persuade many hardline clergy to agree. The Templars behave similarly towards the Divine. Hell, in ''Rise Of The Seeker'' the Knight-Commander of Orlais actualy actually plotted to have the Divine killed and replaced by the Grand Cleric of Orlais as both felt the Divine was too lax on mages. The problem is too endemic for her to fix and certainly too endemic for the new king of a minor country to change.



** Yes, it should. But it isn't. In an ideal world the Seekers would have the numbers and resources to complete the task assigned to them. But as you may have spotted Thedas is not an ideal world. One of the biggest issues with the Circle is that the Templars are pretty much given ''carte blanche'' to operate as they see fit in their own areas and the only check on their power is underfunded, understaffed, overly sympathetic to the Templar's excesses and not contactable by those most likely to suffer under Templar mismanagement. Also remember that this is medieval world, technologically speaking. It probably takes a quarter of a year at least to get from Val Royeaux to Kirkwall and back even assuming no complications. Therefore things will progress slower.

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** Yes, it should. But it isn't. In an ideal world the Seekers would have the numbers and resources to complete the task assigned to them. But as you may have spotted Thedas is not an ideal world. One of the biggest issues with the Circle is that the Templars are pretty much given ''carte blanche'' to operate as they see fit in their own areas and the only check on their power is underfunded, understaffed, overly sympathetic to the Templar's Templars' excesses and not contactable by those most likely to suffer under Templar mismanagement. Also remember that this is medieval world, technologically speaking. It probably takes a quarter of a year at least to get from Val Royeaux to Kirkwall and back even assuming no complications. Therefore things will progress slower.



* It can also be because the game focus ''only'' on the Mages/templars issue and that every other problem (the Qunari after act 2 , dwarf cast system, the racism of the Dalish against city elves, and so on...) aren't addressed at all or, if so, only in a minor sidequest before the focus return to the poor mages that are oppressed... and that turn into abomination or blood magic almost every two minutes, thus making them hardly innocent. And the Templars are worse because, while in ''Origins'', Greagoir was a ReasonableAuthorityFigure as much as a Knight-Commander could be, Meredith is an extremist.

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* It can also be because the game focus ''only'' on the Mages/templars issue and that every other problem (the Qunari after act 2 , dwarf cast system, the racism of the Dalish against city elves, and so on...) aren't addressed at all or, if so, only in a minor sidequest side quest before the focus return to the poor mages that are oppressed... and that turn into abomination or blood magic almost every two minutes, thus making them hardly innocent. And the Templars are worse because, while in ''Origins'', Greagoir was a as ReasonableAuthorityFigure as much as a Knight-Commander could be, Meredith is an extremist.



** Thanks for pointiong that. i kept searching the option "thanks for the map/ritual. Now goodbye and never contact us again."

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** Thanks for pointiong that. i pointing that out. I kept searching the option "thanks for the map/ritual. Now goodbye and never contact us again."



** Or, you know, s/he could just think 'ohmygod they're crazy' regarding Anders and Merrill. Or just think that Merrill will not risk demonic possession if she go to a circle. Or that Anders's ... problem... can be cured. Or that in general mages should be locked up and that Bethany (and him/Her) are just an exception. Or could want to keep the Circle system, although by changing it.

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** Or, you know, s/he could just think 'ohmygod they're crazy' regarding Anders and Merrill. Or just think that Merrill will not risk demonic possession if she go to a circle. Or that Anders's ...Anders's... problem... can be cured. Or that in general mages should be locked up and that Bethany (and him/Her) are just an exception. Or could want to keep the Circle system, although by changing it.



** ''Merrill'', the one who wants to be mugged, who fails to understand that she costs too much for Varric (he tells her), who fails so much at orientation that she needs a ball of twine to not be lost, and who almost always ''fails'' to see Carver flirting with her. Either she's a brilliant {{Troll}} or she took a few dozens level in dumbass between the two games.

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** ''Merrill'', the one who wants to be mugged, who fails to understand that she costs too much for Varric (he tells her), who fails so much at orientation that she needs a ball of twine to not be lost, and who almost always ''fails'' to see Carver flirting with her. Either she's a brilliant {{Troll}} or she took a few dozens level dozen levels in dumbass between the two games.



** Failing to understand that Varric's bribing everyone for your safety even when he tells you that the 'nothing' that happened to you is costing him too much ''is'' rather stupid. Blowing Hawke's bluff ('There's a fire!' 'But no Hawke there's not') when it's clear, if you know him/her for more than ten minutes, that it's a bluff ''is'' stupid and, I think, has nothing to do with human customs (also, don't the last situation happened in Act 2, where Merrill knows Hawke for three years?).

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** Failing to understand that Varric's bribing everyone for your safety even when he tells you that the 'nothing' that happened to you is costing him too much ''is'' rather stupid. Blowing Hawke's bluff ('There's a fire!' 'But no Hawke there's not') when it's clear, if you know him/her for more than ten minutes, that it's a bluff ''is'' stupid and, I think, has nothing to do with human customs (also, don't doesn't the last situation happened happen in Act 2, where Merrill knows Hawke for three years?).



** Other examples: Carroll (the templar standing guard at the Lake Calenhad docks) is stated to be suffering from the effects of long-term lyrium addiction, thus his odd behavior. When the Warden finds Irminric in Howe's dungeon, Alistair (if he's in the party) will flat out state that he's acting crazy because of lyrium withdrawal. Then there are the tunnels underneath the Circle where Anders' act 2 companion quest, which are full of lyrium smugglers who are supplying the Templars with illegal lyrium. I'm also fairly certain the reason Hawke was able to fool Ser Roderick so easily is that he's so lyrium addled that he'd believe anything. As for why more civilians don't get illegal lyrium to gain templar abilities, it's most likely that they don't have anyone to teach them. According to Alistair (though the description of the templar specialization in VideoGame/DragonAgeII implies this may have been retconned), you don't NEED lyrium to learn templar abilities, you just need someone to teach you how to do it, something most people probably don't have access to. Plus there's Alistair's claim that a templar fighting a non-mage is "just a guy in a metal suit." Those willing to defy Chantry law for their own gain would probably rather have an apostate (whose magic is useful against everyone, including other mages) on their side than a self-taught templar who is really only going to be more useful than a regular person if s/he's fighting a mage, making it unlikely there would be much of a demand for such people as mercenaries or hired muscle.
** There's at least two sidequests involving lyrium smuggling in DA:O - one from the Mages' Collective and one in Orzammar from the Dust Town dealer. The issue of a loss of Chantry control of lyrium (and thus their stranglehold on the Templars) also pops up if you let Dagna help set up a Circle of Magi in Orzammar. You can also get Ser Conrad accused of lyrium smuggling in Act 2 of DAII.

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** Other examples: Carroll (the templar standing guard at the Lake Calenhad docks) is stated to be suffering from the effects of long-term lyrium addiction, thus his odd behavior. When the Warden finds Irminric in Howe's dungeon, Alistair (if he's in the party) will flat out state that he's acting crazy because of lyrium withdrawal. Then there are the tunnels underneath the Circle where Anders' act 2 companion quest, which are full of lyrium smugglers who are supplying the Templars with illegal lyrium. I'm also fairly certain the reason Hawke was able to fool Ser Roderick so easily is that he's so lyrium addled that he'd believe anything. As for why more civilians don't get illegal lyrium to gain templar abilities, it's most likely that they don't have anyone to teach them. According to Alistair (though the description of the templar specialization in VideoGame/DragonAgeII ''VideoGame/DragonAgeII'' implies this may have been retconned), you don't NEED lyrium to learn templar abilities, you just need someone to teach you how to do it, something most people probably don't have access to. Plus there's Alistair's claim that a templar fighting a non-mage is "just a guy in a metal suit." Those willing to defy Chantry law for their own gain would probably rather have an apostate (whose magic is useful against everyone, including other mages) on their side than a self-taught templar who is really only going to be more useful than a regular person if s/he's fighting a mage, making it unlikely there would be much of a demand for such people as mercenaries or hired muscle.
** There's at least two sidequests side quests involving lyrium smuggling in DA:O - one from the Mages' Collective and one in Orzammar from the Dust Town dealer. The issue of a loss of Chantry control of lyrium (and thus their stranglehold on the Templars) also pops up if you let Dagna help set up a Circle of Magi in Orzammar. You can also get Ser Conrad accused of lyrium smuggling in Act 2 of DAII.



** For the above examples, I'll just add a few things. The verses of the Chant that included Shartan were removed by the Divine (the head of the Chantry in Thedas) that started the Exalted March on the Dales. The Exalted March (at least by in-game info) is mentioned to have been started by the Divine, so they could force the elves from the Dales to worship Andraste, because they were worshipping the Creators. Basically, that is your version of the Crusade - it was started to convert and subjugate. Whether the current Chantry is racist towards the elves - that is possible, considering the Chantry has a lot of power in Thedas and they never use that power to promote equality or at least make their lives better. And they're still bitter towards the Dalish, because of their different beliefs and because their Keepers are technically apostates.

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** For the above examples, I'll just add a few things. The verses of the Chant that included Shartan were removed by the Divine (the head of the Chantry in Thedas) that started the Exalted March on the Dales. The Exalted March (at least by in-game info) is mentioned to have been started by the Divine, so they could force the elves from the Dales to worship Andraste, because they were worshipping worshiping the Creators. Basically, that is your version of the Crusade - it was started to convert and subjugate. Whether the current Chantry is racist towards the elves - that is possible, considering the Chantry has a lot of power in Thedas and they never use that power to promote equality or at least make their lives better. And they're still bitter towards the Dalish, because of their different beliefs and because their Keepers are technically apostates.



** Despite Gamlen's efforts to the contrary, it's apparent that the Amells are still remembered fondly amongst the nobility of Kirkwall, which points as a reason why it was never removed.

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** Despite Gamlen's efforts to the contrary, it's apparent that the Amells are still remembered fondly amongst by the nobility of Kirkwall, which points as a reason why it was never removed.



** And maybe dwarves live in a far more insular society than Fereldans. Which they do. Homogenization of accents occurred. I agree, it makes sense for there to be different accents for Dusttown and Hightown, but there isn't. You might argue that the noble dwarves speak with a noble inflection, and ''that'' is a different accent. Besides that, Ferelden was made of free-roaming barbarians and tribes. This might be more conducive to different accents.
** Not all Antivans have the same accent. Zevran's accent is different from most Antivans, and the Fergus Cousland's wife Oriana barely had an accent at all. Not all dwarves have the same accent either; apart from Bodhan and Sandal, Ogrhen and Gorim have different accents(despite having the same voice actor), Bartand and Varric have different accents, hell, Trian and Behlen had different accents. All dwarves(except Bodhan and Sandal) have American accents, but they aren't all the same accent and they aren't consistently applied. Bethany, Carver, and Hawke all have different accents and Hawke's accent varies between male and female. Sebastian has a Scottish accent, which sets him apart from almost everyone else in the game, even other people from Starkhaven.

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** And maybe dwarves live in a far more insular society than Fereldans. Which they do. Homogenization of accents occurred. I agree, it makes sense for there to be different accents for Dusttown Dust Town and Hightown, but there isn't. You might argue that the noble dwarves speak with a noble inflection, and ''that'' is a different accent. Besides that, Ferelden was made of free-roaming barbarians and tribes. This might be more conducive to different accents.
** Not all Antivans have the same accent. Zevran's accent is different from most Antivans, and the Fergus Cousland's wife Oriana barely had an accent at all. Not all dwarves have the same accent either; apart from Bodhan and Sandal, Ogrhen and Gorim have different accents(despite having the same voice actor), Bartand and Varric have different accents, accents; hell, Trian and Behlen had different accents. All dwarves(except Bodhan and Sandal) have American accents, but they aren't all the same accent and they aren't consistently applied. Bethany, Carver, and Hawke all have different accents and Hawke's accent varies between male and female. Sebastian has a Scottish accent, which sets him apart from almost everyone else in the game, even other people from Starkhaven.



** To add to the above point, I honestly thought it was because Hawke and Aveline were muscley (even if Hawke's a mage or his/her appearance is modified s/he's still nicely muscled; you can see it during romance scenes). It seemed to me that whenever people mentioned Hawke was a Ferelden they had a certain idea of what a Ferelden would look like; in their eyes, probably the formidable, brawling sort.

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** To add to the above point, I honestly thought it was because Hawke and Aveline were muscley muscled (even if Hawke's a mage or his/her appearance is modified s/he's still nicely muscled; you can see it during romance scenes). It seemed to me that whenever people mentioned Hawke was a Ferelden they had a certain idea of what a Ferelden would look like; in their eyes, probably the formidable, brawling sort.



** Hey, person! It's me, every mage enemy in the game! Yeah, that lore thing you read about with teleportation being impossible? That's balogna! [[TheComputerIsACheatingBastard Or at least for me it is!]]

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** Hey, person! It's me, every mage enemy in the game! Yeah, that lore thing you read about with teleportation being impossible? That's balogna! bologna! [[TheComputerIsACheatingBastard Or at least for me it is!]]



* Why is Bodhan's accent so different from every other dwarf in Thedas? Whether they were born and raised on the surface or in Orzammar all dwarves seem to speak with a distinctly North American accent...except for Bodhan (and Sandal of course, but he's "special" so I don't think it counts). Where did Bodhan get that accent from and why don't any other dwarves talk like him?

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* Why is Bodhan's accent so different from every other dwarf in Thedas? Whether they were born and raised on the surface or in Orzammar all dwarves seem to speak with a distinctly North American accent... except for Bodhan (and Sandal of course, but he's "special" so I don't think it counts). Where did Bodhan get that accent from and why don't any other dwarves talk like him?



** Bodhan seems to have a Ferelden accent, so maybe he's just one of those people who picks up the linguistic habits of the people around him really easily. [[/folder]]

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** Bodhan seems to have a Ferelden accent, so maybe he's just one of those people who picks up the linguistic habits of the people around him really easily.
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** As far as he's concerned about Hawke, they are a mage that only uses their power for the good of the city, and considering he joins in act 2 he's only with Hawke a short while before they become Champion in which case nobody can touch them (especially since their mage power helped in defeated the Arishok in the first place). Bethany, meanwhile, he can only encounter in DLC - where's she's either already part of the Circle, with permission from Meredith to accompany them, or she's a Warden, in which case she's exempt from Chantry law (presumably they allow Wardens to police their own mages, unless said Warden mage goes rogue like Anders). Or during the finale where the situation has already spiraled out of control and pro Mage Sebastian has (assuming Anders was killed) accused the Kirkwall Templars of corruption and turned on them. Merrill meanwhile is a Dalish and a trained First, and since the Chantry doesn't bother them regularly, presumably they allow the Dalish to police their own. Sebastian actually doesn't mind Merrill anyway aside from her recklessness with Demons she doesn't push his buttons with anti-Chantry ranting like Anders does. Anders meanwhile is technically an abomination. The Templar's will almost certainly execute him if turned in assuming he doesn't kill them first. They're be no peaceful way of sending him to the Circle. He'd be signing his death warrant if he turned him in and he presumably doesn't want Anders dead (until the finale anyway). Likewise with Merrill, in fact. She's a blood mage and has a demon pact. Templar's wouldn't take her alive.

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** As far as he's concerned about Hawke, they are a mage that only uses their power for the good of the city, and considering he joins in act 2 he's only with Hawke a short while before they become Champion in which case nobody can touch them (especially since their mage power helped in defeated the Arishok in the first place). Bethany, meanwhile, he can only encounter in DLC - where's she's either already part of the Circle, with permission from Meredith to accompany them, or she's a Warden, in which case she's exempt from Chantry law (presumably they allow Wardens to police their own mages, unless said Warden mage goes rogue like Anders). Or during the finale where the situation has already spiraled out of control and pro Mage Sebastian has (assuming Anders was killed) accused the Kirkwall Templars of corruption and turned on them. Merrill meanwhile is a Dalish and a trained First, and since the Chantry doesn't bother them regularly, presumably they allow the Dalish to police their own. Sebastian actually doesn't mind Merrill anyway aside from her recklessness with Demons she doesn't push his buttons with anti-Chantry ranting like Anders does. Anders meanwhile is technically an abomination. The Templar's Templars will almost certainly execute him if turned in assuming he doesn't kill them first. They're be no peaceful way of sending him to the Circle. He'd be signing his death warrant if he turned him in and he presumably doesn't want Anders dead (until the finale anyway). Likewise with Merrill, in fact. She's a blood mage and has a demon pact. Templar's Templars wouldn't take her alive.



** Well, Kirkwall is pretty crime-ridden. But still, it's a little bit bewildering to see [=NPCs=] stroll non-chalantly through bloody fights like nothing was going on.

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** Well, Kirkwall is pretty crime-ridden. But still, it's a little bit bewildering to see [=NPCs=] stroll non-chalantly nonchalantly through bloody fights like nothing was going on.



** The [=NPCs=] are, for the most part, completely part of the scenery. You can't interact with them in any way and they never register that you're there. They just go about the same motions. Now, not being a game developer I can't say how hard it would or wouldn't be to program [=NPCs=] who get freaked out and run away/cheer you on every time you put your sword to use in front of them, as that kind of thing is more the forte of sandbox games like GTA or Elder Scrolls. Still, rushed as this game is(they didn't have time to give darktown a night model), it's not particularly surprising.

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** The [=NPCs=] are, for the most part, completely part of the scenery. You can't interact with them in any way and they never register that you're there. They just go about the same motions. Now, not being a game developer I can't say how hard it would or wouldn't be to program [=NPCs=] who get freaked out and run away/cheer you on every time you put your sword to use in front of them, as that kind of thing is more the forte of sandbox games like GTA or Elder Scrolls. Still, rushed as this game is(they is (they didn't have time to give darktown Darktown a night model), it's not particularly surprising.



** Because he ''doesn't'' have the power to command an army. For all his talk he's made pretty much no effort to establish a powerbase in Starkhaven.

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** Because he ''doesn't'' have the power to command an army. For all his talk he's made pretty much no effort to establish a powerbase power base in Starkhaven.



** It's also worth noting Anders simply wanted to start all out war everywhere so the mages would be forced to fight the Chantry. Presumably he was hoping they'd win. He himself didn't seem particularly insistant on leading the revolution, just starting it. In fact he seemed to be counting on dying, being rather surprised if Hawke ends up sparing him. Since he'd been a Warden for almost 10 years by then (meaning a decade or two and it would be time for his Calling.) and him dying would allow Justice to be freed from his body to return to the Fade, it's likely he wanted death.

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** It's also worth noting Anders simply wanted to start all out war everywhere so the mages would be forced to fight the Chantry. Presumably he was hoping they'd win. He himself didn't seem particularly insistant insistent on leading the revolution, just starting it. In fact he seemed to be counting on dying, being rather surprised if Hawke ends up sparing him. Since he'd been a Warden for almost 10 years by then (meaning a decade or two and it would be time for his Calling.) and him dying would allow Justice to be freed from his body to return to the Fade, it's likely he wanted death.



** Sorry, the Fereldan Circle was better off than anyone but nobility? This would be the Circle that had a large scale infestation of Blood Mages and Abominations because they just couldn't stand it any more? The Circle whose Templars hunted down Anders even when he joined the Wardens, which is not only oppressive but illegal? That was going to make Jowan Tranquil against his will because they thought he ''might'' fail his Harrowing? That took Wynne's son away from her ''for no goddamn reason''? It might be better than Kirkwall but it's still an Orwellian nightmare. A gilded cage is still a cage. Anders' actions may have been rash and morally reprehensible but the injustices he was opposing are very real, not just his issues. Unwise, perhaps, horrible, sure, but not selfish.

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** Sorry, the Fereldan Circle was better off than anyone but nobility? This would be the Circle that had a large scale infestation of Blood Mages and Abominations because they just couldn't stand it any more? The Circle whose Templars hunted down Anders even when he joined the Wardens, which is not only oppressive but illegal? That was going to make Jowan Tranquil against his will because they thought he ''might'' fail his Harrowing? That took Wynne's son away from her ''for no goddamn reason''? It might be better than Kirkwall but it's still an Orwellian nightmare. A gilded cage is still a cage. Anders' Anders's actions may have been rash and morally reprehensible but the injustices he was opposing are very real, not just his issues. Unwise, perhaps, horrible, sure, but not selfish.



** Because the blood mage who tells you this really wants to live--she begs for her life ahead of time. You're right, but she wasn't supposed to. If a police officer shoots an unarmed prisoner, he is not ''correct'' in doing so, even if he has his buddies back him up. It does not necessarily reflects upon the precinct he comes from. Yes, he was. Did you never speak to Irving? He'll tell you Jowan was seen performing blood magic--''Jowan'' tries to tell you that it's because he's not doing good enough, and then if you confront him about the blood magic thing (notice how the mage here lies about his motivations?) he'll just say some Templar must have seen him sneaking around with Lily, and ''that's'' it--but we later find how he was completely lying to you. It wasn't a "few rumors"--they caught him, he ''was'' a blood mage. Yep, yes I am. The child can't stay at the Circle tower. Also, as I recall the new Dragon Age book is about Wynne's son--for all we know, she had the kid by a templar, and ''his'' family took the kid in. It's possible there were extenuating circumstances, who knows? Yes, there are very cruel aspects of the Circle, but it's not horrific. The Circle is a necessity. We don't have real world applications for mages. They can ''control minds''. What if one gets in good with a world leader? They, in their dreams, can be possessed, become a demon, and firebomb a neighborhood. There's no way to regulate that. There's no way to control it, except for account for them all and account for the magic they use. The best that can be done is give them, as you say, a gilded prison.
** The Blood Mage is doomed and she must know it. Spare her or not, the Templars will see her dead. And the motivation is hardly tough to accept. In and of itself the action of a police officer shooting an unarmed prisoner does not reflect on the precinct, but if the officer in question thinks this is OK and they have reached a high rank, lieutenant or captain, that does suggest a problem. Fine, you've got me on Jowan, I never spoke to Irving. Though personally I've never seen just using Blood Magic as evil. Some of my characters have used Blood Magic and been perfectly nice people. Jowan is not a bad person, he's just really, really stupid. You just assume that there are extenuating circumstances. I suppose we'll see in the new book but it is very odd to simply take the side of the people who stole a child from his mother without any evidence of such circumstances. Even if living in the Circle was not a possibility why is she never allowed to see him again? What possible reason could exist for that? Why are mage kids never allowed to see their parents? Why are they no allowed out ''ever''? All but the worst convicts are allowed occasional trips out under supervision. The Circle is ''not'' a necessity and in fact makes things worse. Plenty of examples exist of mages living outside the Circle, in society without either controling it or going mad. The Dalish, the Mage Collective, the Wardens. Whereas the Circle creates bitter, angry mages with no way out of their undeserved imprisonment but turning to the very things the Circle supposedly is there to prevent. There are other ways. There is a real world comparison for mages. They are called humans. We all have the potential to do terrible things but we don't punish everyone for what they ''might'' do, just what they ''do'' do. We try to make sure most people are taught to be people who won't do terrible things. The fact that mages potential terrible things are worse changes nothing. Account for mages, sure. Make sure they are trained properly, fine. But don't lock them up in a prison for no fault of their own, isolate them from everyone but other mages and the people who kill them if they screw up, never let them even see their families and constantly tell them that God hates them. Let them be a part of the society they are meant to serve ("Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him." Serve man, not be locked away. Andraste was smarter than her followers.) so they have reason to care about them and not fireball them. Let the Templars be a police force, not the SS. Treat mages like human beings (or elves), not bombs.

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** Because the blood mage who tells you this really wants to live--she begs for her life ahead of time. You're right, but she wasn't supposed to. If a police officer shoots an unarmed prisoner, he is not ''correct'' in doing so, even if he has his buddies back him up. It does not necessarily reflects upon the precinct he comes from. Yes, he was. Did you never speak to Irving? He'll tell you Jowan was seen performing blood magic--''Jowan'' tries to tell you that it's because he's not doing good enough, and then if you confront him about the blood magic thing (notice how the mage here lies about his motivations?) he'll just say some Templar must have seen him sneaking around with Lily, and ''that's'' it--but we later find how he was completely lying to you. It wasn't a "few rumors"--they caught him, he ''was'' a blood mage. Yep, yes I am. The child can't stay at the Circle tower. Also, as I recall the new Dragon Age book is about Wynne's son--for all we know, she had the kid by a templar, Templar, and ''his'' family took the kid in. It's possible there were extenuating circumstances, who knows? Yes, there are very cruel aspects of the Circle, but it's not horrific. The Circle is a necessity. We don't have real world applications for mages. They can ''control minds''. What if one gets in good with a world leader? They, in their dreams, can be possessed, become a demon, and firebomb a neighborhood. There's no way to regulate that. There's no way to control it, except for account for them all and account for the magic they use. The best that can be done is give them, as you say, a gilded prison.
** The Blood Mage is doomed and she must know it. Spare her or not, the Templars will see her dead. And the motivation is hardly tough to accept. In and of itself the action of a police officer shooting an unarmed prisoner does not reflect on the precinct, but if the officer in question thinks this is OK and they have reached a high rank, lieutenant or captain, that does suggest a problem. Fine, you've got me on Jowan, I never spoke to Irving. Though personally I've never seen just using Blood Magic as evil. Some of my characters have used Blood Magic and been perfectly nice people. Jowan is not a bad person, he's just really, really stupid. You just assume that there are extenuating circumstances. I suppose we'll see in the new book but it is very odd to simply take the side of the people who stole a child from his mother without any evidence of such circumstances. Even if living in the Circle was not a possibility why is she never allowed to see him again? What possible reason could exist for that? Why are mage kids never allowed to see their parents? Why are they no allowed out ''ever''? All but the worst convicts are allowed occasional trips out under supervision. The Circle is ''not'' a necessity and in fact makes things worse. Plenty of examples exist of mages living outside the Circle, in society without either controling controlling it or going mad. The Dalish, the Mage Collective, the Wardens. Whereas the Circle creates bitter, angry mages with no way out of their undeserved imprisonment but turning to the very things the Circle supposedly is there to prevent. There are other ways. There is a real world comparison for mages. They are called humans. We all have the potential to do terrible things but we don't punish everyone for what they ''might'' do, just what they ''do'' do. We try to make sure most people are taught to be people who won't do terrible things. The fact that mages potential terrible things are worse changes nothing. Account for mages, sure. Make sure they are trained properly, fine. But don't lock them up in a prison for no fault of their own, isolate them from everyone but other mages and the people who kill them if they screw up, never let them even see their families and constantly tell them that God hates them. Let them be a part of the society they are meant to serve ("Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him." Serve man, not be locked away. Andraste was smarter than her followers.) so they have reason to care about them and not fireball them. Let the Templars be a police force, not the SS. Treat mages like human beings (or elves), not bombs.



** Merill doesn't use her power for evil, she just puts herself in dangerous situations, after first doing her utmost to protect others. Jowan does, but through stupidity, not malice. And the worst thing he does he does at the order of the regent of Fereldan. As for the rest, of course we meet the bad ones. We're adventuring. Be a dull story otherwise "the mighty adventurers encountered a powerful mage...who was a perfectly decent chap, so they passed the time of day and moved along." Mind control is pretty damn rare actually. In both games there are maybe three mages who can use it. In any case, my point stands. You are quite capable of killing lots of people, should you be locked up to prevent you from doing so? Because that is what you are saying should happen to mages, that they should be locked up to prevent what they ''might'' do. And you have yet to give a reason why separating them from their families entirely is needed. That said your argument that might just hold some water if the Circle actually ''worked.'' But it doesn't. By isolating mages and treating them like criminals it makes them bitter and angry and thus more likely to do the very things it claims to prevent. It's. Not. Working. The Dalish, Mages Collective and the Wardens are, for the most part, giving mages more freedom and getting better results. The only place where free mages are making a mess is Tevinter, which sucks because it's slave trading dictatorship, not because it has free mages. The Circle has had frequent uprisings, demon invasions and so on and has caused effectively a World War. How can you still suggest it's the way to go?

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** Merill Merrill doesn't use her power for evil, she just puts herself in dangerous situations, after first doing her utmost to protect others. Jowan does, but through stupidity, not malice. And the worst thing he does he does at the order of the regent of Fereldan. As for the rest, of course we meet the bad ones. We're adventuring. Be a dull story otherwise "the mighty adventurers encountered a powerful mage...who was a perfectly decent chap, so they passed the time of day and moved along." Mind control is pretty damn rare actually. In both games there are maybe three mages who can use it. In any case, my point stands. You are quite capable of killing lots of people, should you be locked up to prevent you from doing so? Because that is what you are saying should happen to mages, that they should be locked up to prevent what they ''might'' do. And you have yet to give a reason why separating them from their families entirely is needed. That said your argument that might just hold some water if the Circle actually ''worked.'' But it doesn't. By isolating mages and treating them like criminals it makes them bitter and angry and thus more likely to do the very things it claims to prevent. It's. Not. Working. The Dalish, Mages Collective and the Wardens are, for the most part, giving mages more freedom and getting better results. The only place where free mages are making a mess is Tevinter, which sucks because it's slave trading dictatorship, not because it has free mages. The Circle has had frequent uprisings, demon invasions and so on and has caused effectively a World War. How can you still suggest it's the way to go?



** Exactly. Since I got into this discussion I have never suggested that mages shouldn't be trained. It's the method of training that's the problem. To cover the points my compatriot above did not, Meredith made the jump from "a mage killed my family" to "all mages ''will'' kill people," an absurd logical fallacy. And then was willing to use a mysterious and highly dangerous artefact from the Deep Roads to empower herself against mages and provoked a World War. Not really an advert for the Circle there. As for the merchant's sister made Tranquil from the context it would seem she was one of Ser Alrick's victims. More to the point the merchant says "sweet and gentle" not "sweet, soft and utterly defenceless." A gentle person is very unlikely to fall to a demon because she doesn't want power like that. Unless of course she were backed into a corner by a fanatic in a tin can who wants to kill her for something that isn't her fault. The way forward is obvious; mages should be treated like the Dalish treat them. Have an more experienced mage train them, keep an eye on them, take them down if they do go Abomination, but don't treat them like criminals. Let them live with other people, let them still talk to their family and friends, allow them to feel part of the community. Give them reasons to care about other people. Outside the communal lives of the Dalish you are going to need a group like the Templars but, as I said earlier, let them be a police force not the SS. They don't need to hover over mages, hands on hilts, every day of their lives. Most people live fairly blameless lives without a policeman watching their every move, most mages will do the same. Treat mages like that and you'll have thousands, maybe tens of thousands of decent, well adjusted mages using their powers to make the lives of every person in Thedas better. And when one of them does go bad, the Templars can deal with it with help from other mages.
** The biggest flaw in the Mages Should Be Free argument is that we really meet VERY few Apostates who can serve as good examples of why mages don't need the Circle looking over their shoulders. First, there is the issue of Blood Magic that needs to be addressed before anything further can be gone into: why is Blood Magic inherently bad? The answer isn't necessarily what it can do (control minds, as an example), as any form of magic can be capable of abuse. There is a reason why Blood Mages very reliably turn into Abominations, that I think's been overlooked in this discussion: to become a Blood Mage, the Mage has to directly make a bargain with a demon for power. It's not like just cutting your wrist and spraying magic; it's a Faustian Pact that, more often than not, ends in possession. Blood Mages are Abominations-in-Training, even if they're naive enough not to realize it (Merrill comes to mind, and but for the intervention of Merethari, she would have been no different). With this in mind, who can really serve as a good example of apostates acting responsibly without Circle oversight? Merrill, who very nearly made an Abomination of herself and inadvertently destroyed her clan? Flemeth, an ancient Abomination who kills Templars for sport, feeds on people who wander into her grasp, and raises new hosts as children? Anders, an Abomination responsible for nuking the Chantry? The Mages' Collective, whose first task for the Warden is to warn away Blood Mages so they can flee from their pursuers? Jowan? Connor? Zathrian? Even Merethari took a Pride Demon into herself and potentially caused the genocide of her clan, out of love for Merrill. Bethany is just about the only Apostate I can think of that is not, whether deliberate or through ignorance, a knife to the throat of everyone around them. There certainly are Apostates who don't blow up and kill people, but from what we've seen, they're few and far between. If Mages really are so responsible that they don't need Templar oversight, then where are all the responsible Apostates? And don't say that there are none because the Templars' existence forces the issue; there is one place that Mages are truly free of all Chantry oversight, and that is the Tevinter Imperium, the most horrible place of all. Those with power inevitably seek to use their power. Mages are born with that power. It's given to them freely, and without the discipline that comes from earning something, it cries out for abuse.

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** Exactly. Since I got into this discussion I have never suggested that mages shouldn't be trained. It's the method of training that's the problem. To cover the points my compatriot above did not, Meredith made the jump from "a mage killed my family" to "all mages ''will'' kill people," an absurd logical fallacy. And then was willing to use a mysterious and highly dangerous artefact from the Deep Roads to empower herself against mages and provoked a World War. Not really an advert for the Circle there. As for the merchant's sister made Tranquil from the context it would seem she was one of Ser Alrick's Alrik's victims. More to the point the merchant says "sweet and gentle" not "sweet, soft and utterly defenceless.defenseless." A gentle person is very unlikely to fall to a demon because she doesn't want power like that. Unless of course she were backed into a corner by a fanatic in a tin can who wants to kill her for something that isn't her fault. The way forward is obvious; mages should be treated like the Dalish treat them. Have an more experienced mage train them, keep an eye on them, take them down if they do go Abomination, but don't treat them like criminals. Let them live with other people, let them still talk to their family and friends, allow them to feel part of the community. Give them reasons to care about other people. Outside the communal lives of the Dalish you are going to need a group like the Templars but, as I said earlier, let them be a police force not the SS. They don't need to hover over mages, hands on hilts, every day of their lives. Most people live fairly blameless lives without a policeman watching their every move, most mages will do the same. Treat mages like that and you'll have thousands, maybe tens of thousands of decent, well adjusted mages using their powers to make the lives of every person in Thedas better. And when one of them does go bad, the Templars can deal with it with help from other mages.
** The biggest flaw in the Mages Should Be Free argument is that we really meet VERY few Apostates who can serve as good examples of why mages don't need the Circle looking over their shoulders. First, there is the issue of Blood Magic that needs to be addressed before anything further can be gone into: why is Blood Magic inherently bad? The answer isn't necessarily what it can do (control minds, as an example), as any form of magic can be capable of abuse. There is a reason why Blood Mages very reliably turn into Abominations, that I think's been overlooked in this discussion: to become a Blood Mage, the Mage has to directly make a bargain with a demon for power. It's not like just cutting your wrist and spraying magic; it's a Faustian Pact that, more often than not, ends in possession. Blood Mages are Abominations-in-Training, even if they're naive enough not to realize it (Merrill comes to mind, and but for the intervention of Merethari, Marethari, she would have been no different). With this in mind, who can really serve as a good example of apostates acting responsibly without Circle oversight? Merrill, who very nearly made an Abomination of herself and inadvertently destroyed her clan? Flemeth, an ancient Abomination who kills Templars for sport, feeds on people who wander into her grasp, and raises new hosts as children? Anders, an Abomination responsible for nuking the Chantry? The Mages' Collective, whose first task for the Warden is to warn away Blood Mages so they can flee from their pursuers? Jowan? Connor? Zathrian? Even Merethari took a Pride Demon into herself and potentially caused the genocide of her clan, out of love for Merrill. Bethany is just about the only Apostate I can think of that is not, whether deliberate or through ignorance, a knife to the throat of everyone around them. There certainly are Apostates who don't blow up and kill people, but from what we've seen, they're few and far between. If Mages really are so responsible that they don't need Templar oversight, then where are all the responsible Apostates? And don't say that there are none because the Templars' existence forces the issue; there is one place that Mages are truly free of all Chantry oversight, and that is the Tevinter Imperium, the most horrible place of all. Those with power inevitably seek to use their power. Mages are born with that power. It's given to them freely, and without the discipline that comes from earning something, it cries out for abuse.



** Really, the largest logically fallacy espoused by the Templars is that the mages will go bad if backed into a corner. Now, this may be true at least sometimes, but the people spouting it are usually the same guys who backed them into a corner in the first place. An apostate who meets with a templar is faced with, at best, lifetime imprisonment and, at worst, immediate execution. There's no such thing as due process for a mage: either you're serving the Chantry's whims or your a target. When you're facing an enemy that cannot be reasoned with, you can't really blame someone for defending themselves. The templars are basically running up to a wild animal, screaming and waving sticks, then get upset when they get bit. Any templar who thinks that maybe reasoning with an apostate might be a good idea is called an idealistic fool and essentially told to stand in the corner by their superiors who swear by the method that's barely functioned for over a thousand years. I'm not saying that an apostate ''isn't'' a potential danger or that there aren't numerous mages guilty of actual crimes beyond "being a mage", but the Templars really do bring a lot of this on themselves by treating ''every'' mage as if they're seconds away from tearing the blood out of an entire crowd and ripping the Veil out of spite. If they were really interested in reducing magic-related incidents, they'd learn to vary their tactics based on the mage's psychology. Maybe even bring Circle mages with them when they go after more impressionable apostates to take them without a fight or undue stress that could lead to possession. Sadly, their too attached to outdated religious doctrine to think of anything ''that'' logically. A peace keeping force should at least ''try'' not to be seen as the enemy of those they're supposed to deal with.

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** Really, the largest logically fallacy espoused by the Templars is that the mages will go bad if backed into a corner. Now, this may be true at least sometimes, but the people spouting it are usually the same guys who backed them into a corner in the first place. An apostate who meets with a templar Templar is faced with, at best, lifetime imprisonment and, at worst, immediate execution. There's no such thing as due process for a mage: either you're serving the Chantry's whims or your a target. When you're facing an enemy that cannot be reasoned with, you can't really blame someone for defending themselves. The templars Templars are basically running up to a wild animal, screaming and waving sticks, then get upset when they get bit. Any templar Templar who thinks that maybe reasoning with an apostate might be a good idea is called an idealistic fool and essentially told to stand in the corner by their superiors who swear by the method that's barely functioned for over a thousand years. I'm not saying that an apostate ''isn't'' a potential danger or that there aren't numerous mages guilty of actual crimes beyond "being a mage", but the Templars really do bring a lot of this on themselves by treating ''every'' mage as if they're seconds away from tearing the blood out of an entire crowd and ripping the Veil out of spite. If they were really interested in reducing magic-related incidents, they'd learn to vary their tactics based on the mage's psychology. Maybe even bring Circle mages with them when they go after more impressionable apostates to take them without a fight or undue stress that could lead to possession. Sadly, their too attached to outdated religious doctrine to think of anything ''that'' logically. A peace keeping force should at least ''try'' not to be seen as the enemy of those they're supposed to deal with.



** Also not all mages go bad when cornered. Notice the girl on Anders Act 2 quest, she was backed into a corner and didn't get possessed or go blood magic. Likewise the mages in the first wave of the Templar attack on the Circle. Granted we see a lot that do but we are playing a game, a game that is futhermore Varric telling a story. He's not gonna repeatedly tell Cassandra "We met this apostate and it all went fine" nor are the game designers going to do that. It's boring. Oh, and plenty of the Feredan Circle didn't turn even though backed into a corner and most of those that did had to be tortured into it. That there has to be a system that watches over mages in case they do go bad is fair enough but the Circle system simply doesn't work. Treating an entire group like criminals just for being them and then being surprised when some of them act like criminals is deeply foolish.
** The reverse problem still remains, however; the mages really are loaded guns from birth to death. Each one carries the potential for devastation on a global scale. Consider what could have happened if a possessed Connor hadn't been stopped by the Warden. The potential for destruction rivals that of a Blight. And the Blight itself was caused by mages who sought to increase their power - indeed, it's worth noting that people like Fenris garner their opinions from the fact that the Tivinter Imperium was run by mages who were some of the cruelest, most tyrannical people imaginable and used their magic to actively hurt others. The Circle system was established only after the overall defeat of the Tivinter Imperium liberated the better part of the continent from an equally oppressive and destructive system of rule by mages.

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** Also not all mages go bad when cornered. Notice the girl on Anders Anders's Act 2 quest, she was backed into a corner and didn't get possessed or go blood magic. Likewise the mages in the first wave of the Templar attack on the Circle. Granted we see a lot that do but we are playing a game, a game that is futhermore furthermore Varric telling a story. He's not gonna repeatedly tell Cassandra "We met this apostate and it all went fine" nor are the game designers going to do that. It's boring. Oh, and plenty of the Feredan Fereldan Circle didn't turn even though backed into a corner and most of those that did had to be tortured into it. That there has to be a system that watches over mages in case they do go bad is fair enough but the Circle system simply doesn't work. Treating an entire group like criminals just for being them and then being surprised when some of them act like criminals is deeply foolish.
** The reverse problem still remains, however; the mages really are loaded guns from birth to death. Each one carries the potential for devastation on a global scale. Consider what could have happened if a possessed Connor hadn't been stopped by the Warden. The potential for destruction rivals that of a Blight. And the Blight itself was caused by mages who sought to increase their power - indeed, it's worth noting that people like Fenris garner their opinions from the fact that the Tivinter Tevinter Imperium was run by mages who were some of the cruelest, most tyrannical people imaginable and used their magic to actively hurt others. The Circle system was established only after the overall defeat of the Tivinter Tevinter Imperium liberated the better part of the continent from an equally oppressive and destructive system of rule by mages.



** Except that 9 out of every 10 Templars we run into are violently psychotic fanatics ready to kill or tranqulise any mage that looks at them funny along with anyone who ever chatted with said mage. I'm sure most Templars aren't like that but again, it's a game, we need something to fight and often. The experiences shown in game are not indicative of large scale trends. How many of the average citzens of Kirkwall do you think run into dragons on a regular basis? And no, even if one in ten apostate mages were likely to go bad (which the survival of Dalish society and the Mages' Collective suggests is a massive over estimation anyway) it still wouldn't justify the Templar's treatment of them. First, if 1 in 10 people of any given group became criminals that would suggest a deep seated problem with that group, sure, but would you really suggest the other 9 out 10 be arrested and imprisoned as well, just in case? You really think that's a fair and just use of power? Second, as has been said, taking mages away from their families, treating them like criminals even though they've done nothing wrong, telling them that god hates them just for existing and putting them entirely under the control of a bunch of religious fanatics in tin cans who are trained almost exclusively to kill them is not a great way to get them on side. The Circle essentially teaches mages that humanity has no place for them. How is that supposed to make them hold onto their humanity (or elfanity for that matter)? By all means find and train them but the Templars' approach is only making it worse.

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** Except that 9 out of every 10 Templars we run into are violently psychotic fanatics ready to kill or tranqulise any mage that looks at them funny along with anyone who ever chatted with said mage. I'm sure most Templars aren't like that but again, it's a game, we need something to fight and often. The experiences shown in game are not indicative of large scale trends. How many of the average citzens of Kirkwall do you think run into dragons on a regular basis? And no, even if one in ten apostate mages were likely to go bad (which the survival of Dalish society and the Mages' Collective suggests is a massive over estimation anyway) it still wouldn't justify the Templar's Templars' treatment of them. First, if 1 in 10 people of any given group became criminals criminals, that would suggest a deep seated problem with that group, sure, but would you really suggest the other 9 out 10 be arrested and imprisoned as well, just in case? You really think that's a fair and just use of power? Second, as has been said, taking mages away from their families, treating them like criminals even though they've done nothing wrong, telling them that god hates them just for existing and putting them entirely under the control of a bunch of religious fanatics in tin cans who are trained almost exclusively to kill them is not a great way to get them on side. The Circle essentially teaches mages that humanity has no place for them. How is that supposed to make them hold onto their humanity (or elfanity for that matter)? By all means find and train them but the Templars' approach is only making it worse.



** It actually depends on what you did during the prologue. A note found on one of the assassins reveals they were hired by either the family of Friedrich (the noble you killed to gain membership in the Red Iron) or Cavril (the merchant you robbed/intimidated in order to join Athenril's gang).

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** *** It actually depends on what you did during the prologue. A note found on one of the assassins reveals they were hired by either the family of Friedrich (the noble you killed to gain membership in the Red Iron) or Cavril (the merchant you robbed/intimidated in order to join Athenril's gang).



* How do the templars get away with Tranquilizing dozens of Harrowed mages per week, something which is explicitly ILLEGAL under Chantry law? I mean, forget the whole mage vs. templar issue or even treating mages like human beings, this is a blatant violation of a law instated by the CHANTRY, the very institution that set up the Circle and the templars in the first place. It's especially jarring with Ser Alrick, who was not only operating his plans before Meredith was driven insane, but he took his plan to the effin' DIVINE. You'd think that he would get arrested on the spot. Even if Kirkwall is unusually barbaric when it came to the treatment of mages, one would think that the Chantry as a whole would have a problem with its branch in Kirkwall completely disregarding its rules. The Chantry doesn't seem like an institution that would let shit fly like that.
** Well, there's the problem that the one who's supposed to enforce chantry law in Kirkwall, Grand Cleric Elthina, doesn't have the guts to stand up to Meredith when she should. But where did you get that dozens of mages were made tranquil weekly? I got the impression it was one or two per week/month - whoever Alrik could lure away without arousing too much suspicion. As for why he wasn't arrested, perhaps they (Meredith and Elthina) figured he would drop the matter and continue on as usual after his request was turned down, and then when mages began getting tranquilized they began investigating but couldn't prove he was behind it (he may have been valuable in some way - like being exceptionally competent in hunting apostates, for example - so that Meredith was unwilling to persecute him without solid proof).
** For the dozens per week, I am probably wrong about it. I think I remember conversations with Anders on the subjects, but he may not be the most reliable or unbiased source. Regardless the Kirkwall templars are violating Chantry law by doing it. For the record, they did have proof. Neither Alrick nor Meredith near the end were really keeping it a secret. Anders claims that he keeps seeing more Tranquil appear in the Gallows, running shops no less, and that many of them had already passed their Harrowing. Whoever was behind the Tranquilizations was flaunting it. I can understand Kirkwall turning a blind eye on it. It just bugs me that Ser Alrick brought this to the Divine and the Chantry as a whole did not investigate this. One would think that, regardless of their opinions on mages, the Chantry would enforce its own laws.

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* How do the templars Templars get away with Tranquilizing dozens of Harrowed mages per week, something which is explicitly ILLEGAL under Chantry law? I mean, forget the whole mage vs. templar issue or even treating mages like human beings, this is a blatant violation of a law instated by the CHANTRY, the very institution that set up the Circle and the templars Templars in the first place. It's especially jarring with Ser Alrick, Alrik, who was not only operating his plans before Meredith was driven insane, but he took his plan to the effin' DIVINE. You'd think that he would get arrested on the spot. Even if Kirkwall is unusually barbaric when it came to the treatment of mages, one would think that the Chantry as a whole would have a problem with its branch in Kirkwall completely disregarding its rules. The Chantry doesn't seem like an institution that would let shit fly like that.
** Well, there's the problem that the one who's supposed to enforce chantry Xhantry law in Kirkwall, Grand Cleric Elthina, doesn't have the guts to stand up to Meredith when she should. But where did you get that dozens of mages were made tranquil weekly? I got the impression it was one or two per week/month - whoever Alrik could lure away without arousing too much suspicion. As for why he wasn't arrested, perhaps they (Meredith and Elthina) figured he would drop the matter and continue on as usual after his request was turned down, and then when mages began getting tranquilized they began investigating but couldn't prove he was behind it (he may have been valuable in some way - like being exceptionally competent in hunting apostates, for example - so that Meredith was unwilling to persecute him without solid proof).
** For the dozens per week, I am probably wrong about it. I think I remember conversations with Anders on the subjects, subject, but he may not be the most reliable or unbiased source. Regardless the Kirkwall templars Templars are violating Chantry law by doing it. For the record, they did have proof. Neither Alrick nor Meredith near the end were really keeping it a secret. Anders claims that he keeps seeing more Tranquil appear in the Gallows, running shops no less, and that many of them had already passed their Harrowing. Whoever was behind the Tranquilizations was flaunting it. I can understand Kirkwall turning a blind eye on it. It just bugs me that Ser Alrick brought this to the Divine and the Chantry as a whole did not investigate this. One would think that, regardless of their opinions on mages, the Chantry would enforce its own laws.



** Also after reading "Asunder" it becomes a bit clearer: ''The Divine is pro-mage.'' Not exactly close-down-the-Circle-and-let-them-all-free pro-mage but overall her sympathies are with them. She was trying to reform the Circle before everything went sour, the only reason it didn't work was templar resistance.

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** Also after reading "Asunder" it becomes a bit clearer: ''The Divine is pro-mage.'' Not exactly close-down-the-Circle-and-let-them-all-free pro-mage but overall her sympathies are with them. She was trying to reform the Circle before everything went sour, the only reason it didn't work was templar Templar resistance.



** I can see three explanations here. First: Hawke's friend/lover/sibling is right over there, still groggy from mind control. A big knock down fight would put them at serious risk. Second, Cullen almost certainly informed Meredith before acting on his tip off, so killing him would probably spark off the mage-templar war right there. Third, while anti mage freedom Cullen does not say "Templars have an inherent right to do whatever they please with mages," he's just rather quick on the judgement for mages. The guy is probably Meredith's last stabilising influence. If he dies, Meredith will likely call the Right of Annulment the next time a mage looks at her funny.

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** I can see three explanations here. First: Hawke's friend/lover/sibling is right over there, still groggy from mind control. A big knock down fight would put them at serious risk. Second, Cullen almost certainly informed Meredith before acting on his tip off, so killing him would probably spark off the mage-templar mage-Templar war right there. Third, while anti mage freedom Cullen does not say "Templars have an inherent right to do whatever they please with mages," he's just rather quick on the judgement for mages. The guy is probably Meredith's last stabilising stabilizing influence. If he dies, Meredith will likely call the Right Rite of Annulment the next time a mage looks at her funny.



* ... that Merrill was coming for the demon and get up there in time to do it first? It's fair to assume the Dalish have scouts who would have seen her and Hawke coming but that could have been for any number of reasons. How did she know what they were planning? Did she have someone spying on Merrill's house who overheard her intentions?

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* ... that Merrill was coming for the demon and get up there in time to do it first? It's fair to assume the Dalish have scouts who would have seen her and Hawke coming but that could have been for any number of reasons. How did she know what they were planning? Did she have someone spying on Merrill's house who overheard her intentions?



*** Yeah, exactly. I think the player is supposed to have noticed this and put the pieces together to realize that Marethari's been possessed by Audacity for a couple of years. That's also why she allowed the rumors about Merrill to spread in the clan.



* Ok so the templars invoke the rite of annulment, got that. Orsino begs Meredith not to, and says they'll submit to all her rules, just don't kill them all. She says no, rite of annulment, which has been established means every single mage will be purged from the circle. Orsino even says again later that Meredith can end this by calling off the rite, the mages won't fight unless she tries to murder them all. Meredith says no and the templars don't object. I don't see a problem with this. The problem is like 2 minutes after the second time Orsino makes this offer, Bethany and some mages run up and say they won't fight so long as the templars agree not to kill them and the templars-.....spare them? Shouldn't the fight have ended right then and there with the other mages going "we don't want to die, we want to surrender like we tried twice already". The only reason this fight was happening was because Meredith invoked the rite that said she would be murdering every single one of them, once that obviously wasn't going to happen..why did the fight not stop? Or why didn't the templars just say to Bethany "we've told you people twice already it doesn't matter if you surrender, we're going to kill you"?
** Meredith was the one who rejected the surrender. The other templars were willing to accept one, but only get the courage to do so if Hakwe is allied with them and speaks on their behalf. As for why the other mages keep fighting: 1) some are pissed off about the injustice of it all (including those who lost friends to templars hours ago), 2) some see this as their one chance to escape Meredith and the Circle that's become ridiculously oppressive recently, 3) some actually ''are'' blood mages who have nothing to lose, 4) they have no reason to trust the templars after this massacre, and 5) mages who surrender during the Rite are to be made [[FateWorseThanDeath Tranquil]] according to Chantry law.

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* Ok so the templars invoke the rite of annulment, got that. Orsino begs Meredith not to, and says they'll submit to all her rules, just don't kill them all. She says no, rite Rite of annulment, Annulment, which has been established means every single mage will be purged from the circle.Circle. Orsino even says again later that Meredith can end this by calling off the rite, the mages won't fight unless she tries to murder them all. Meredith says no and the templars Templars don't object. I don't see a problem with this. The problem is like 2 minutes after the second time Orsino makes this offer, Bethany and some mages run up and say they won't fight so long as the templars Templars agree not to kill them and the templars-.....Templars... spare them? Shouldn't the fight have ended right then and there with the other mages going "we don't want to die, we want to surrender like we tried twice already". The only reason this fight was happening was because Meredith invoked the rite that said she would be murdering every single one of them, once that obviously wasn't going to happen..why did the fight not stop? Or why didn't the templars Templars just say to Bethany "we've Bethany, "We've told you people twice already it doesn't matter if you surrender, we're going to kill you"?
** Meredith was the one who rejected the surrender. The other templars Templars were willing to accept one, but only get the courage to do so if Hakwe is allied with them and speaks on their behalf. As for why the other mages keep fighting: 1) some are pissed off about the injustice of it all (including those who lost friends to templars Templars hours ago), 2) some see this as their one chance to escape Meredith and the Circle that's become ridiculously oppressive recently, 3) some actually ''are'' blood mages who have nothing to lose, 4) they have no reason to trust the templars Templars after this massacre, and 5) mages who surrender during the Rite are to be made [[FateWorseThanDeath Tranquil]] according to Chantry law.



** One possible reason why the average templar might be willing to accept surrenders, despite orders, is because the knight-commander doesn't have the right to annul the Circle in the first place. A knight-commander can only request the Rite of Annulment, and the nearest Grand Cleric must first approve of it. Granted, the nearest Grand Cleric just got blown up by a mage, but the fact remains that Meredith's actions are still illegal. If Hawke tags along with the templars and openly accepts surrenders in spite of Meredith's proclamation, the more level-headed templars gain the courage to defy her more openly (which further contributes to her insanity).

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** One possible reason why the average templar Templar might be willing to accept surrenders, despite orders, is because the knight-commander doesn't have the right to annul the Circle in the first place. A knight-commander can only request the Rite of Annulment, and the nearest Grand Cleric must first approve of it. Granted, the nearest Grand Cleric just got blown up by a mage, but the fact remains that Meredith's actions are still illegal. If Hawke tags along with the templars Templars and openly accepts surrenders in spite of Meredith's proclamation, the more level-headed templars Templars gain the courage to defy her more openly (which further contributes to her insanity).



** There's some discrepancies on this point. Aside from Anders' comment, Asunder suggests that any mage can figure out the most basic application of blood magic -- the use of blood for power. But the more complicated stuff -- mind control, summoning demons, etc.; can only be learned from another maleficar or a demon.

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** There's some discrepancies on this point. Aside from Anders' Anders's comment, Asunder suggests that any mage can figure out the most basic application of blood magic -- the use of blood for power. But the more complicated stuff -- mind control, summoning demons, etc.; can only be learned from another maleficar or a demon.



** eh, while i agree that blood magic has a very high potential for danger, i disagree with merrill being successfully "seduced" by the pride demon. whether or not you agree with her "understanding what's going on", the game makes it pretty clear that you could have avoided the death if only the keeper didn't decide to "save" merrill (after all, your party can straight up kill it). I think, in the end, the blood magic thing is more of a stigma originating from the tevinter imperium's magister lords than anything else. After all, they probably did some pretty horrible things to subjects to fuel more "ambitious" projects.

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** eh, Eh, while i I agree that blood magic has a very high potential for danger, i I disagree with merrill Merrill being successfully "seduced" by the pride demon. whether or not you agree with her "understanding what's going on", the game makes it pretty clear that you could have avoided the death if only the keeper didn't decide to "save" merrill Merrill (after all, your party can straight up kill it). I think, in the end, the blood magic thing is more of a stigma originating from the tevinter imperium's Tevinter Imperium's magister lords than anything else. After all, they probably did some pretty horrible things to subjects to fuel more "ambitious" projects.



** Marethari was successfully seduced by the demon. NOT Merrill. Could she have been? Absolutely, maybe. That goes with theme of ambiguity in DAII. But, first I have to point out that 1. Merrill knows the dangerous nature of demons; she says it to Anders all the time 2. Where does it say that Merrill would absolutely would have gotten possessed? That info comes for a [==Demon Possessed Marethari==]. The demon told her so! Demons are not notoriously reliable. So a demon, a PRIDE demon, told Marethar that she was the only one who could save Merrill, hell her entire clan. Also, on a side note: Demons can only possess the willing. Recall Mouse (another pride demon) says at the very beginning of the Mage origin "You just have to let me in."

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** Marethari was successfully seduced by the demon. NOT Merrill. Could she have been? Absolutely, maybe. That goes with theme of ambiguity in DAII. But, first I have to point out that 1. Merrill knows the dangerous nature of demons; she says it to Anders all the time time, and 2. Where does it say that Merrill would absolutely would have gotten possessed? That info comes for from a [==Demon Possessed Marethari==].''demon possessed Marethari''. The demon told her so! Demons are not notoriously reliable. So a demon, a PRIDE demon, told Marethar Marethari that she was the only one who could save Merrill, hell her entire clan. Also, on a side note: Demons can only possess the willing. Recall Mouse (another pride demon) says at the very beginning of the Mage origin "You just have to let me in."



** Plus there are instances in which Blood Magic is the only way, witness the Grey Wardens Joining and the binding of Corypheaus. Oh, and the Chantry uses a low grade version of Blood Magic all the time; the Phylacteries.

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** Plus there are instances in which Blood Magic is the only way, witness the Grey Wardens Joining and the binding of Corypheaus. Corypheus. Oh, and the Chantry uses a low grade version of Blood Magic all the time; time - the Phylacteries.



** Exactly. Using Blood Magic is not a switch that instantly turns you evil, it's just that certain things it can do, such as draining another's life or mind control, are terrible temptations that might eventually corrupt even the most well intentioned types. An (obvious massively toned down) comparison might be owning a gun. Having a gun is not going to force you to shoot someone. But if you ever find yourself wanting to shoot someone (without self-defense or such being involved), well, the gun is right there. Most people with guns won't end up shooting someone but someone without a gun simply ''can't.'' Similarly without the oppression involved I'd imagine most Blood Mages wouldn't drain the life out of people to fuel spells or mind control people for their own power but they'll always have the option to do so.

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** Exactly. Using Blood Magic is not a switch that instantly turns you evil, it's just that certain things it can do, such as draining another's life or mind control, are terrible temptations that might eventually corrupt even the most well intentioned well-intentioned types. An (obvious massively toned down) comparison might be owning a gun. Having a gun is not going to force you to shoot someone. But if you ever find yourself wanting to shoot someone (without self-defense or such being involved), well, the gun is right there. Most people with guns won't end up shooting someone but someone without a gun simply ''can't.'' Similarly without the oppression involved I'd imagine most Blood Mages wouldn't drain the life out of people to fuel spells or mind control people for their own power but they'll always have the option to do so.



** As Seneschal Bran points out, for better or worse, the templars are now the ultimate power in Kirkwall as they represent security within the city. Other candidates put themselves forward for the position of viscount and Meredith re-buffed them all. As well-liked as Hawke may be, s/he cannot take the throne without the templars' support.
** Also, by opposing the templars at the end game, Hawke has become a wanted fugitive. If s/he hung around in Kirkwall, the templars would hunt Hawke down.

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** As Seneschal Bran points out, for better or worse, the templars Templars are now the ultimate power in Kirkwall as they represent security within the city. Other candidates put themselves forward for the position of viscount and Meredith re-buffed them all. As well-liked as Hawke may be, s/he cannot take the throne without the templars' Templars' support.
** Also, by opposing the templars Templars at the end game, Hawke has become a wanted fugitive. If s/he hung around in Kirkwall, the templars Templars would hunt Hawke down.



** They're likely the same thing. Avaraad are specialist roles. In tactical combat, an Avaraad likely has other tactical duties beyond caretaking Sarebaas. More likely than not, the Stens and Ashaad and other Qunari foot troops are Avaraad, or the Avaraad handlers were kille din battle before you arrived and the Sarebaas are "loose" (which likely means just following the orders of other Qunari until the conflict is over and they can be put down.)

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** They're likely the same thing. Avaraad are specialist roles. In tactical combat, an Avaraad likely has other tactical duties beyond caretaking taking care of Sarebaas. More likely than not, the Stens and Ashaad and other Qunari foot troops are Avaraad, or the Avaraad handlers were kille din killed in battle before you arrived and the Sarebaas are "loose" (which likely means just following the orders of other Qunari until the conflict is over and they can be put down.)



** She might be well likes because of her passivity. An authority figure who's not taking a stand is a blank canvas for projection. If she did pick a side all hel would break loose for her, but in stalling she could both keep the conflict away from herself and gain sympathy from those who were tired of it.

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** She might be well likes because of her passivity. An authority figure who's not taking a stand is a blank canvas for projection. If she did pick a side all hel hell would break loose for her, but in stalling she could both keep the conflict away from herself and gain sympathy from those who were tired of it.



Now obviously none of this means that Meredith was right all along or that purging the entire Circle after Anders' little terrorist attack was justified. What it does mean is that if you put yourself in Elthina's shoes, account for the limited information she has access to as well as the misinformation she is undoubtedly receiving from Meredith, and remember to look at the whole situation through the lens of ''her personal perspective'' on how things ought to be, the question of who she should or should not side with ''or whether she should even take a side at all'' becomes ''extremely'' complicated. It's easy for the ''player'' to say what she should or should not have done, because we know how everything turns out. She doesn't. You can say she failed to prevent a disaster, and you'd be right. You can say things would have gone better if she had done X instead of Y, and again you would (probably) be right. But the one thing you ''cannot'' do is accuse her of not caring, not giving her best effort, or not having good reasons for doing what she did.\\

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Now obviously none of this means that Meredith was right all along or that purging the entire Circle after Anders' Anders's little terrorist attack was justified. What it does mean is that if you put yourself in Elthina's shoes, account for the limited information she has access to as well as the misinformation she is undoubtedly receiving from Meredith, and remember to look at the whole situation through the lens of ''her personal perspective'' on how things ought to be, the question of who she should or should not side with ''or whether she should even take a side at all'' becomes ''extremely'' complicated. It's easy for the ''player'' to say what she should or should not have done, because we know how everything turns out. She doesn't. You can say she failed to prevent a disaster, and you'd be right. You can say things would have gone better if she had done X instead of Y, and again you would (probably) be right. But the one thing you ''cannot'' do is accuse her of not caring, not giving her best effort, or not having good reasons for doing what she did.\\



** (OP here for reference) First, thank you for your well thought out and articulate response. I always like decent debate. However I'd like to contest a few points. First, the comparision with Pius, while apt, is not entirely fair. Pius had no direct authority over the Nazis or any other government. All he could do was publicly condem this or that action. Ethina is actually Meredith's superior (a point that was made in Origins, speaking with Alistair reveals the Templars in an area answer to that area's Grand Cleric). She has the authority to tell Meredith and Orsino what to do. Second, while Ethina may not be aware of Meredith's increasing mistreatment of the mages she is well aware, indeed she couldn't be unaware, that Meredith is holding illegal control over the secular authority of Kirkwall and that this is causing increasing unrest amoung the populace, yet still does nothing. Also Orsino is apparantly giving public speeches about how his people are being mistreated so she can't be completely clueless. Even if Orsino were overdoing it, where there's smoke there's fire and a good authority figure really should investigate serious claims made against those working for them. Finally I take issue with the idea that I only want to her to take a stand on my side of the issue. Obviously I would have prefered she support the mages to some extent (I hardly expected her to disolve the Circle but holding Meredith back from atrocity would have been nice) but even if she had come down on the Templar's side I would have respected her far more. As a figure of great respect amoung the populace, as you noted, even amoung the mages, such an act might have quietened rebellion, certainly more than doing nothing would. Or it might have done nothing. But it would at least indicate an attempt to actually take up the responsbilties she is supposed to embody. I wouldn't agree with her decision in such a case but I would respect her integrity, as I do with Cullen, someone on the other side of the debate from me but one who seems rational (unlike Meredith) and is actually trying to improve the situation (unlike Elthina).
** "Ethina is actually Meredith's superior" Only on paper. Elthina's ability to actually control Meredith became more uncertain as she became more and more unstable. Whether Meredith would have actually listened if Elthina actively opposed her is an open question. And don't forget that ''Elthina herself'' has to answer to a higher authority, and we're given no indication that Val Royeaux disapproves of Meredith's actions. Her hands may simply have been tied. "Also Orsino is apparantly giving public speeches about how his people are being mistreated" Not true. He gave ''one'' speech where he alleges some outlandish Templar conspiracy to rule Kirkwall with an iron fist. Elthina has little reason to give any credibility to this accusation. And remember that at that point in the game, the biggest Templar crimes were committed by people ''other'' than Meredith. Ser Alrik and Sister Patrice were both rogue agents pursuing their own unsanctioned agendas ''without'' the knowledge or permission of their superiors, and when they were found out they were both put down. Apart from that, the worst the Templars ever did was things like keeping the mages locked up for longer than they should and denying them access to their staffs and spellbooks. And given the massive Blood Mage problem in Kirkwall, they could easily justify that as a necessary security measure. Templars are, after all, experts on the subject of safely controlling mages, and Elthina is not. "[E]ven if she had come down on the Templar's side I would have respected her far more." Would you? Did you respect Meredith and Alrik for their unflinching commitment to their radical anti-mage beliefs? Because those are the people that Elthina would be supporting if she sided with the Templars.
** Sure, Meredith might ignore Elthina if she told her to stand down but that's hardly a point in Ethina's favour. Saying you didn't try to rein in someone under your command because they might not listen is not a valid excuse. That's an argument as to why Ethina intervening might not have worked, not as to why she shouldn't do it. As for Val Royeaux, we have evidence of the Divine opinions on such matters from other sources and there is no way in hell she'd support Meredith's actions so orders from above are unlikely. On evidence, Osino's speech does not seem to be an isolated incident, based on others reactions to it and even if it was the fact that Meredith has in effect declared herself dictator of Kirkwall is no secret. Even if Elthina doesn't believe the abuses heaped on the mages, that issue will definately be known to her, so the idea she's unaware of a problem still doesn't hold water. And yes, I would respect her more. I already said I respect Cullen more than her even though he's on the other side from me. Apart from anything else one can pick a side without condoning the actions of everyone on that side. I support the mages side of the issue, doesn't mean I have to like or agree with Grace.

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** (OP here for reference) First, thank you for your well thought out and articulate response. I always like decent debate. However I'd like to contest a few points. First, the comparision comparison with Pius, while apt, is not entirely fair. Pius had no direct authority over the Nazis or any other government. All he could do was publicly condem condemn this or that action. Ethina Elthina is actually Meredith's superior (a point that was made in Origins, speaking with Alistair reveals the Templars in an area answer to that area's Grand Cleric). She has the authority to tell Meredith and Orsino what to do. Second, while Ethina Elthina may not be aware of Meredith's increasing mistreatment of the mages she is well aware, indeed she couldn't be unaware, that Meredith is holding illegal control over the secular authority of Kirkwall and that this is causing increasing unrest amoung among the populace, yet still does nothing. Also Orsino is apparantly apparently giving public speeches about how his people are being mistreated so she can't be completely clueless. Even if Orsino were overdoing it, where there's smoke there's fire and a good authority figure really should investigate serious claims made against those working for them. Finally I take issue with the idea that I only want to her to take a stand on my side of the issue. Obviously I would have prefered preferred she support the mages to some extent (I hardly expected her to disolve dissolve the Circle but holding Meredith back from atrocity would have been nice) but even if she had come down on the Templar's Templars' side I would have respected her far more. As a figure of great respect amoung among the populace, as you noted, even amoung among the mages, such an act might have quietened rebellion, certainly more than doing nothing would. Or it might have done nothing. But it would at least indicate an attempt to actually take up the responsbilties responsibilities she is supposed to embody. I wouldn't agree with her decision in such a case but I would respect her integrity, as I do with Cullen, someone on the other side of the debate from me but one who seems rational (unlike Meredith) and is actually trying to improve the situation (unlike Elthina).
** "Ethina "Elthina is actually Meredith's superior" Only on paper. Elthina's ability to actually control Meredith became more uncertain as she became more and more unstable. Whether Meredith would have actually listened if Elthina actively opposed her is an open question. And don't forget that ''Elthina herself'' has to answer to a higher authority, and we're given no indication that Val Royeaux disapproves of Meredith's actions. Her hands may simply have been tied. "Also Orsino is apparantly apparently giving public speeches about how his people are being mistreated" Not true. He gave ''one'' speech where he alleges some outlandish Templar conspiracy to rule Kirkwall with an iron fist. Elthina has little reason to give any credibility to this accusation. And remember that at that point in the game, the biggest Templar crimes were committed by people ''other'' than Meredith. Ser Alrik and Sister Patrice were both rogue agents pursuing their own unsanctioned agendas ''without'' the knowledge or permission of their superiors, and when they were found out they were both put down. Apart from that, the worst the Templars ever did was things like keeping the mages locked up for longer than they should and denying them access to their staffs and spellbooks. And given the massive Blood Mage problem in Kirkwall, they could easily justify that as a necessary security measure. Templars are, after all, experts on the subject of safely controlling mages, and Elthina is not. "[E]ven if she had come down on the Templar's Templars' side I would have respected her far more." Would you? Did you respect Meredith and Alrik for their unflinching commitment to their radical anti-mage beliefs? Because those are the people that Elthina would be supporting if she sided with the Templars.
** Sure, Meredith might ignore Elthina if she told her to stand down but that's hardly a point in Ethina's Elthina's favour. Saying you didn't try to rein in someone under your command because they might not listen is not a valid excuse. That's an argument as to why Ethina Elthina intervening might not have worked, not as to why she shouldn't do it. As for Val Royeaux, we have evidence of the Divine opinions on such matters from other sources and there is no way in hell she'd support Meredith's actions so orders from above are unlikely. On evidence, Osino's speech does not seem to be an isolated incident, based on others reactions to it and even if it was the fact that Meredith has in effect declared herself dictator of Kirkwall is no secret. Even if Elthina doesn't believe the abuses heaped on the mages, that issue will definately definitely be known to her, so the idea she's unaware of a problem still doesn't hold water. And yes, I would respect her more. I already said I respect Cullen more than her even though he's on the other side from me. Apart from anything else one can pick a side without condoning the actions of everyone on that side. I support the mages side of the issue, doesn't mean I have to like or agree with Grace.



** You are correct, a lie of ommission is still a lie. The Qun, however, do not consider it as such...but, yes. The Arishok was deliberately decieving everyone he spoke to. He is not forbidden to decieve. He is simply forbidden to speak an untruth. It is hypocrisy, and it is a VERY common trope.

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** You are correct, a lie of ommission omission is still a lie. The Qun, however, do not consider it as such... but, yes. The Arishok was deliberately decieving deceiving everyone he spoke to. He is not forbidden to decieve.deceive. He is simply forbidden to speak an untruth. It is hypocrisy, and it is a VERY common trope.



** To go back to the original question, the qunari aren't trying to fix their society because their doctrine is that their society is already perfect and the problem is with the people who become Tal-Vashoth, and noticing problems in qunari society is a good way to get anyone below the Triumvirate a session with the reeducators or a dose of qamek. Which means that qunari reform is facing three issues. One, the people with enough power to do so are dependent upon people thinking they know everything to ''keep'' that power, and admitting you fucked up kind of goes against that goal. Two, most of the people who fit well into it are so indoctrinated into its ways that the concept of thinking otherwise is almost impossible for them to understand (see also: Sten). Three, anyone who notices that there are problems and dares say anything about them gets a visit from the secret police, who ''also'' depend upon the official dogma being followed for their power. Basically, they can't fix it because nobody is allowed to realise that it's broken, and anyone who does is killed, brainwashed or drugged into idiocy.

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** To go back to the original question, the qunari Qunari aren't trying to fix their society because their doctrine is that their society is already perfect and the problem is with the people who become Tal-Vashoth, and noticing problems in qunari Qunari society is a good way to get anyone below the Triumvirate a session with the reeducators re-educators or a dose of qamek. Which means that qunari Qunari reform is facing three issues. One, the people with enough power to do so are dependent upon people thinking they know everything to ''keep'' that power, and admitting you fucked up kind of goes against that goal. Two, most of the people who fit well into it are so indoctrinated into its ways that the concept of thinking otherwise is almost impossible for them to understand (see also: Sten). Three, anyone who notices that there are problems and dares say anything about them gets a visit from the secret police, who ''also'' depend upon the official dogma being followed for their power. Basically, they can't fix it because nobody is allowed to realise that it's broken, and anyone who does is killed, brainwashed or drugged into idiocy.



** It is just theft. It's theft with very serious consequences but the actual crime is theft. If you steal something from someone and they commit suicide over losing it that's tragic but you are not now guilty of theft and murder. Lying to Hawke is A Bad Thing but it's not an actual crime. As for extradition, the Qunari have no extradition treaty with any country in Thedas. They're effectively in an armed truce with all of them. Plus the theft was from Orlesians, not the Qunari. She never stole anything from the Qunari themselves so even if they did have such treaties it wouldn't apply. The real world parallel would be suggesting that stealing a mummy from the British Museum should get you extradited to Egypt. She also is hardly solely responsible for the resulting loss of life, that lets the Arishok off. Y'know, the guy who actually orders his men to kill those people. The guy who you let go free if you give him Isabela, making ''him'' the KarmaHoudini. In a choice between punishing a minor criminal who provoked a war criminal and punishing the war criminal himself I know which one I'd pick. Hawke may not know the specifics of what the Qunari would do but he knows the Qunari; it is going to be horrible. Sure, Isabela behaved selfishly to save her own life but most human beings would. It's called survival instinct; much as we might like to think otherwise few of us would willing die to save others. If you're in the position to make the decision that means she's overcome that and ''is'' willing putting herself in a likely fatal position (on several levels) to save others. It doesn't redeem her right then and there but it means she's on the path to redemption and responded to that with "too late, go be tortured" is hardly moral. Also while Isabela is a selfish criminal she's hardly the only one in the group with innocent blood on her hands. Fenris killed the Fog Warriors who'd looked after him remember and Hawke is unlikely to get to the end of Act 2 without a few unlawful deaths in his past. It's a morally murky game set in a morally murky world, this kind of absolutist approach to crime and punishment doesn't really fit.

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** It is just theft. It's theft with very serious consequences but the actual crime is theft. If you steal something from someone and they commit suicide over losing it that's tragic but you are not now guilty of theft and murder. Lying to Hawke is A Bad Thing but it's not an actual crime. As for extradition, the Qunari have no extradition treaty with any country in Thedas. They're effectively in an armed truce with all of them. Plus the theft was from Orlesians, not the Qunari. She never stole anything from the Qunari themselves so even if they did have such treaties it wouldn't apply. The real world parallel would be suggesting that stealing a mummy from the British Museum should get you extradited to Egypt. She also is hardly solely responsible for the resulting loss of life, that lets the Arishok off. Y'know, the guy who actually orders his men to kill those people. The guy who you let go free if you give him Isabela, making ''him'' the KarmaHoudini. In a choice between punishing a minor criminal who provoked a war criminal and punishing the war criminal himself I know which one I'd pick. Hawke may not know the specifics of what the Qunari would do but he knows the Qunari; it is going to be horrible. Sure, Isabela behaved selfishly to save her own life but most human beings would. It's called survival instinct; much as we might like to think otherwise few of us would willing die to save others. If you're in the position to make the decision that means she's overcome that and ''is'' willing putting herself in a likely fatal position (on several levels) to save others. It doesn't redeem her right then and there but it means she's on the path to redemption and responded to that with "too late, go be tortured" is hardly moral. Also Also, while Isabela is a selfish criminal criminal, she's hardly the only one in the group with innocent blood on her hands. Fenris killed the Fog Warriors who'd looked after him remember him, remember, and Hawke is unlikely to get to the end of Act 2 without a few unlawful deaths in his his/her past. It's a morally murky game set in a morally murky world, this kind of absolutist approach to crime and punishment doesn't really fit.



** Ok, I'm going to dispute the points, beacuse I'm enjoying the debate, but beforehand I'm going to say that I agree that it is YMMV situation and I bare you no ill will for merely holding a different opinion regarding a fictional dilemma. So 1)I agree that she has a moral responsibility but I don't think that handing her over to the Qunari is a fair punishment for what she did. 2)Actually no. Her story makes it fairly clear that, while she knew it was a Qunari relic when she stole it, she had no idea how important it was to them. She was just given the order "Steal this relic before it's sold to the Qunari." She could be lying about that of course but given that even when she's 'fessing up she's still puzzled as to why the Qunari care so much I'm inclined to believe her. 3) The thing here is that she's not just at risk from the Qunari. If it was only the Arishok after her I think by that point an Isabela high enough on relationship values to decide to come back later would be willing to go with Hawke and trust him to protect her if the Arishok demanded to take her. However if she did that she'd still be being hunted by the people who hired her, so her life would still be in constant deadly danger. Which is what happens if you spare her; only Hawke's later help sorts that. So again, few people are really willing to actually die for others. 4)Yes, Fenris and Hawke have excuses but they still did it. Fenris might have been badly mentaly beaten down but he was still a free willed individual. He could have said no, he didn't. Isabela is facing her death. That may be cowardice but it is a cowardice most of us would suffer from. If I knew hundreds would die and I could save them by dying myself I'm aware the moral choice is to die but I can't honestly say with any certainty that I could actually do that. 5) Well, the real reason is of course "Because that's how it's written" but in universe it's more of a philisophical issue with the Qunari. After all they seem incapable of iniative with the Arishok; with him dead they can't take any action but retreat, including taking Isabela. Just a WMG really but it fits.

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** Ok, I'm going to dispute the points, beacuse I'm enjoying the debate, but beforehand I'm going to say that I agree that it is YMMV situation and I bare you no ill will for merely holding a different opinion regarding a fictional dilemma. So 1)I agree that she has a moral responsibility but I don't think that handing her over to the Qunari is a fair punishment for what she did. 2)Actually no. Her story makes it fairly clear that, while she knew it was a Qunari relic when she stole it, she had no idea how important it was to them. She was just given the order "Steal this relic before it's sold to the Qunari." She could be lying about that of course but given that even when she's 'fessing up she's still puzzled as to why the Qunari care so much I'm inclined to believe her. 3) The thing here is that she's not just at risk from the Qunari. If it was only the Arishok after her I think by that point an Isabela high enough on relationship values to decide to come back later would be willing to go with Hawke and trust him to protect her if the Arishok demanded to take her. However if she did that she'd still be being hunted by the people who hired her, so her life would still be in constant deadly danger. Which is what happens if you spare her; only Hawke's later help sorts that. So again, few people are really willing to actually die for others. 4)Yes, Fenris and Hawke have excuses but they still did it. Fenris might have been badly mentaly beaten down but he was still a free willed individual. He could have said no, he didn't. Isabela is facing her death. That may be cowardice but it is a cowardice most of us would suffer from. If I knew hundreds would die and I could save them by dying myself I'm aware the moral choice is to die but I can't honestly say with any certainty that I could actually do that. 5) Well, the real reason is of course "Because that's how it's written" but in universe it's more of a philisophical philosophical issue with the Qunari. After all they seem incapable of iniative with the Arishok; with him dead they can't take any action but retreat, including taking Isabela. Just a WMG really but it fits.



** One point me and a friend thought of, simply due to order of events as I played them, is bringing up the Arishoks refusal to turn over those elves for crimes they committed against Kirkwall, not to mention the act of assassinating a fairly high ranking person who was already under arrest for crimes because "the Qun looks after their own". It just reeks of hypocrisy for the Arishok to make these demands but not even try to answer why HIS rules somehow excuse the exact same actions he wants to call out Hawke for. Of course, the answer is that he's basically a Supremacist, but I think making him answer those contradictions and more explicitly expose his view point would have helped.

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** One point me and a friend thought of, simply due to order of events as I played them, is bringing up the Arishoks Arishok's refusal to turn over those elves for crimes they committed against Kirkwall, not to mention the act of assassinating a fairly high ranking person who was already under arrest for crimes because "the Qun looks after their own". It just reeks of hypocrisy for the Arishok to make these demands but not even try to answer why HIS rules somehow excuse the exact same actions he wants to call out Hawke for. Of course, the answer is that he's basically a Supremacist, but I think making him answer those contradictions and more explicitly expose his view point would have helped.



** That's where they start, sure, but they go to strange places with it. While most collectivists would state that the individual's needs are subordinate to the needs of society few would go so far as to refer to each other only by job titles and believe that the individual does not exist outside that role. And almost none would think of a tool as their soul. While more relatable than an EldritchAbomination, TheFairFolk or similar types that normally gain the BlueAndOrangeMorality label their morality is wierd enough to count.

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** That's where they start, sure, but they go to strange places with it. While most collectivists would state that the individual's needs are subordinate to the needs of society few would go so far as to refer to each other only by job titles and believe that the individual does not exist outside that role. And almost none would think of a tool as their soul. While more relatable than an EldritchAbomination, TheFairFolk TheFairFolk, or similar types that normally gain the BlueAndOrangeMorality label label, their morality is wierd weird enough to count.



** For Merrill's clan it could make sense, since Dalish tend to move a lot but even then they stay around Kirkwall for seven years! And that's not counting the fact that, if you played a dalish and took a certain option at the end of Origins, the dalish could very well have their own land now.

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** For Merrill's clan it could make sense, since Dalish tend to move a lot but even then they stay around Kirkwall for seven years! And that's not counting the fact that, if you played a dalish Dalish and took a certain option at the end of Origins, ''Origins'', the dalish Dalish could very well have their own land now.



** Yeah. [[SarcasmMode Go and hide in the same town as the army of giants who are after you, that's really a smart move.]] As for Anders it make sense but not if he had a maximum friendship with the Warden (but I won't go into IIDAII screw ups, they've already been discussed). But what about Cullen?

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** Yeah. [[SarcasmMode Go and hide in the same town as the army of giants who are after you, that's really a smart move.]] As for Anders it make sense but not if he had a maximum friendship with the Warden (but I won't go into IIDAII DAII screw ups, they've already been discussed). But what about Cullen?



** I imagine that she considers the Qunari to be a more distant and obvious threat. She doesn't appear to be all that familiar with what they could really do to her and assumes that so long as she stays away from their territory and any horned giants, she'd be fine. Castillion, on the other hand, is a slaver with a large area of influence. If she crosses him, she'd have to watch her back for the rest of her life, never knowing who could be one of his flunkies. Given their similar livelihoods, she'd be far more likely to come into contact than him than any Qunari ship. I guess she assumes that she can run away from Qunari and other threats, but she can't run from Castillion forever.
** Also Castillion knows her name, what she looks like and the sort of thing she's likely to be doing with her days, all things the Qunari don't have a clue of. They just know someone stole the Tome before the Orlesians could sell it to them. Also while he and his goons are not that impressive that's because he was coming to pick up an imprisoned, tied up Isabela, not a freed Isabela with friends. If he'd known where she was he'd likely have sent a large team of assassins, loaded for bear, to kill her while she was alone and, hopefully, sleeping, while not showing up in person at all. And she'd never know when it was coming.

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** I imagine that she considers the Qunari to be a more distant and obvious threat. She doesn't appear to be all that familiar with what they could really do to her and assumes that so long as she stays away from their territory and any horned giants, she'd be fine. Castillion, Castillon, on the other hand, is a slaver with a large area of influence. If she crosses him, she'd have to watch her back for the rest of her life, never knowing who could be one of his flunkies. Given their similar livelihoods, she'd be far more likely to come into contact than him than any Qunari ship. I guess she assumes that she can run away from Qunari and other threats, but she can't run from Castillion Castillon forever.
** Also Castillion Castillon knows her name, what she looks like and the sort of thing she's likely to be doing with her days, all things the Qunari don't have a clue of. They just know someone stole the Tome before the Orlesians could sell it to them. Also while he and his goons are not that impressive that's because he was coming to pick up an imprisoned, tied up Isabela, not a freed Isabela with friends. If he'd known where she was he'd likely have sent a large team of assassins, loaded for bear, to kill her while she was alone and, hopefully, sleeping, while not showing up in person at all. And she'd never know when it was coming.
8th Mar '18 9:10:37 PM LadyNorbert
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* It's not a major deal, but I've never quite understood this. I've only played with Bethany as the surviving twin, so I don't know if it happens with Carver too; but when the four women get to Kirkwall in the prologue, Leandra talks about Gamlen coming to get them into the city, and Bethany comments, "Let's hope he received your letter." When the heck did Leandra have the chance to write to Gamlen?! They didn't decide to go to Kirkwall until after they fled Lothering, and they fled Lothering so close to the darkspawn's arrival that they literally only made it out with the clothes on their backs. They ran into Flemeth, who got them to Gwaren, where they (presumably) used whatever coin they had to purchase their passage to the Free Marches. Sure, she could have written to him then, but how would a letter have reached him sooner than they themselves did?

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* It's not a major deal, but I've never quite understood this. I've only played with Bethany as the surviving twin, so I don't know if it happens with Carver too; but when Aveline and the four women three surviving Hawkes get to Kirkwall in the prologue, Leandra talks about Gamlen coming to get them into the city, and Bethany comments, "Let's hope he received your letter." When the heck did Leandra have the chance to write to Gamlen?! They didn't decide to go to Kirkwall until after they fled Lothering, and they fled Lothering so close to the darkspawn's arrival that they literally only made it out with the clothes on their backs. They ran into Flemeth, who got them to Gwaren, where they (presumably) used whatever coin they had to purchase their passage to the Free Marches. Sure, she could have written to him then, but how would a letter have reached him sooner than they themselves did?



* So, Magister McAsshole turns up in Kirkwall, lays a trap to get Fenris to show up, then.... what? Danarius put himself in an incredibly vulnerable position by walking up to the guy that wants to kill him more than just about anything else and has the skills to back it all up. Sure he had forces with him, but Fenris has killed almost overwhelming groups of people before and never backs down (as shown in his short story). Was there any outcome that was likely other than glowy hand through the face? Especially now that Fenris has allies. I know you can turn Fenris over, but Danarius acts surprised if you do, so that couldn't have been what he was expecting.

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* So, Magister McAsshole turns up in Kirkwall, lays a trap to get Fenris to show up, then....then... what? Danarius put himself in an incredibly vulnerable position by walking up to the guy that wants to kill him more than just about anything else and has the skills to back it all up. Sure he had forces with him, but Fenris has killed almost overwhelming groups of people before and never backs down (as shown in his short story). Was there any outcome that was likely other than glowy hand through the face? Especially now that Fenris has allies. I know you can turn Fenris over, but Danarius acts surprised if you do, so that couldn't have been what he was expecting.
8th Mar '18 9:04:28 PM LadyNorbert
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* This is the argument most often brought up against Anders' actions at the end...but the attack takes place at nightfall, when the Chantry is closed or closing, and the Kirkwall chantry is repeatedly shown to be almost deserted even during daytime. During the cutscene of the Chantry Boom, we see only Templars and the Grand Cleric inside, all of whom are party to the abuses of the Gallows and thus legitimate targets. Where, then, are all these alleged innocent people?
** First the Chantry's doors are always open (hence why so much happens there at night in the game) so there likely were others there, the priests doing the "night shift" if no-one else. Second debris rained down on much of the city so deaths beyond the Chantry itself seem very likely. Third plenty of people would count the Grand Cleric as innocent as she merely failed to stop the Templar abuses rather than being an active part, something that applies to many Templars as well. Finally many feel that the actions taken by most of the Templars who did act wrongly were not enough to merit a death sentence (and unlike Inquisition there is not an open state of war between Templars and mages) so it's not as if their deaths don't count. For reference I an decidedly anti-Templar in my general stance but still agree with much of the above.

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* This is the argument most often brought up against Anders' actions at the end... but the attack takes place at nightfall, when the Chantry is closed or closing, and the Kirkwall chantry Chantry is repeatedly shown to be almost deserted even during daytime. During the cutscene of the Chantry Boom, we see only Templars and the Grand Cleric inside, all of whom are party to the abuses of the Gallows and thus legitimate targets. Where, then, are all these alleged innocent people?
** First the Chantry's doors are always open (hence why so much happens there at night in the game) so there likely were others there, the priests doing the "night shift" if no-one else. Second Second, debris rained down on much of the city so deaths beyond the Chantry itself seem very likely. Third Third, plenty of people would count the Grand Cleric as innocent as she merely failed to stop the Templar abuses rather than being an active part, something that applies to many Templars as well. Finally Finally, many feel that the actions taken by most of the Templars who did act wrongly were not enough to merit a death sentence (and unlike Inquisition ''Inquisition'' there is not an open state of war between Templars and mages) so it's not as if their deaths don't count. For reference I an am decidedly anti-Templar in my general stance but still agree with much of the above.


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[[folder:Kelder and his father]]
* Okay, so Kelder (whom I believe it's generally understood is mentally ill) is the son of a Kirkwall magistrate who hires Hawke to collect an escaped prisoner. Said prisoner ''is'' Kelder, but the magistrate neglects to explain that the escaped prisoner is his son. Kelder knows he can't stop hurting the beautiful elven children, so he's sealed himself in an abandoned tunnel and hopes that the giant spiders or whatever will kill him. Unless the player decides to give him back to his father, Hawke (or Fenris) then kills him, and the party exits the tunnel and Hawke has to interact with the father one more time back in Kirkwall to properly end the quest. The magistrate then threatens to destroy Hawke's life in Kirkwall, though nothing ever comes of this. So, I have two questions.
** Kelder had gone into the tunnel so that the giant spiders could kill him, right? Why didn't Hawke have the option to ''say that''? "I would have brought him out alive, but by the time I found him, the spiders had gotten him. I'm terribly sorry." Or let Varric do the explaining, if he's in the party at the time - I'm sure he could come up with a perfectly good story that everyone would have believed.
** Since the magistrate never makes good on his threat to ruin Hawke, ''what even was the point of the quest''? Except for the fact that Lia (the rescued elf girl) joins the city guard later if Hawke kills Kelder, this quest has absolutely no bearing on the rest of the game whatsoever. I don't think it even affects companion approval levels. Why was it in there at all?
[[/folder]]
7th Mar '18 7:31:34 PM LadyNorbert
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** As far as he's concerned about Hawke, they are a mage that only uses their power for the good of the city, and considering he joins in act 2 he's only with Hawke a short while before they become Champion in which case nobody can touch them (especially since their mage power helped in defeated the Arishok in the first place). Bethany meanwhile he can only encounter in DLC, where's she's already part of the circle, with permission by Meredith to accompany them, or she's a Warden in which case she's exempt from Chantry law (presumably they allow Warden's to police their own mages, unless said Warden mage goes rogue like Anders). Or during the finale where the situation has already spiraled out of control and pro Mage Sebastian has (assuming Anders was killed) accused the Kirkwall Templars of corruption and turned on them. Merrill meanwhile is a Dalish and a trained First, and since the Chantry doesn't bother them regularly, presumably they allow the Dalish to police their own. Sebastian actually doesn't mind Merrill anyway aside from her recklessness with Demons she doesn't push his buttons with anti Chantry ranting like Anders does. Anders meanwhile is technically an abomination. The Templar's will almost certainly execute him if turned in assuming he doesn't kill them first. They're be no peaceful way of sending him to the Circle. He'd be signing his death warrant if he turned him in and he presumably doesn't want Anders dead (until the finale anyway). Likewise with Merrill, in fact. She's a blood mage and has a demon pact. Templar's wouldn't take her alive.

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** As far as he's concerned about Hawke, they are a mage that only uses their power for the good of the city, and considering he joins in act 2 he's only with Hawke a short while before they become Champion in which case nobody can touch them (especially since their mage power helped in defeated the Arishok in the first place). Bethany meanwhile Bethany, meanwhile, he can only encounter in DLC, DLC - where's she's either already part of the circle, Circle, with permission by from Meredith to accompany them, or she's a Warden Warden, in which case she's exempt from Chantry law (presumably they allow Warden's Wardens to police their own mages, unless said Warden mage goes rogue like Anders). Or during the finale where the situation has already spiraled out of control and pro Mage Sebastian has (assuming Anders was killed) accused the Kirkwall Templars of corruption and turned on them. Merrill meanwhile is a Dalish and a trained First, and since the Chantry doesn't bother them regularly, presumably they allow the Dalish to police their own. Sebastian actually doesn't mind Merrill anyway aside from her recklessness with Demons she doesn't push his buttons with anti Chantry anti-Chantry ranting like Anders does. Anders meanwhile is technically an abomination. The Templar's will almost certainly execute him if turned in assuming he doesn't kill them first. They're be no peaceful way of sending him to the Circle. He'd be signing his death warrant if he turned him in and he presumably doesn't want Anders dead (until the finale anyway). Likewise with Merrill, in fact. She's a blood mage and has a demon pact. Templar's wouldn't take her alive.
22nd Jan '18 4:25:54 AM GriffinPilgrim
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** First the Chantry's doors are always open (hence why so much happens there at night in the game) so there likely were others there, the priest doing the "night shift" if no-one else. Second debris rained down on much of the city so deaths beyond the Chantry itself seem very likely. Third plenty of people would count the Grand Cleric as innocent as she merely failed to stop the Templar abuses rather than being an active part, something that applies to many Templars as well. Finally many feel that the actions taken by most of the Templars who did act wrongly were not enough to merit a death sentence (and unlike Inquisition there is not an open state of war between Templars and mages) so it's not as if their deaths don't count. For reference I an decidedly anti-Templar in my general stance but still agree with much of the above.

to:

** First the Chantry's doors are always open (hence why so much happens there at night in the game) so there likely were others there, the priest priests doing the "night shift" if no-one else. Second debris rained down on much of the city so deaths beyond the Chantry itself seem very likely. Third plenty of people would count the Grand Cleric as innocent as she merely failed to stop the Templar abuses rather than being an active part, something that applies to many Templars as well. Finally many feel that the actions taken by most of the Templars who did act wrongly were not enough to merit a death sentence (and unlike Inquisition there is not an open state of war between Templars and mages) so it's not as if their deaths don't count. For reference I an decidedly anti-Templar in my general stance but still agree with much of the above.
22nd Jan '18 4:25:10 AM GriffinPilgrim
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** First the Chantry's doors are always open (hence why so much happens there at night in the game) so there likely were others there, the priest doing the "night shift" if no-one else. Second debris rained down on much of the city so deaths beyond the Chantry itself seem very likely. Third plenty of people would count the Grand Cleric as innocent as she merely failed to stop the Templar abuses rather than being an active part, something that applies to many Templars as well. Finally many feel that the actions taken by most of the Templars were not enough to merit a death sentence (and unlike Inquisition there is not an open state of war between Templars and mages) so it's not as if their deaths don't count. For reference I an decidedly anti-Templar but still agree with much of the above.

to:

** First the Chantry's doors are always open (hence why so much happens there at night in the game) so there likely were others there, the priest doing the "night shift" if no-one else. Second debris rained down on much of the city so deaths beyond the Chantry itself seem very likely. Third plenty of people would count the Grand Cleric as innocent as she merely failed to stop the Templar abuses rather than being an active part, something that applies to many Templars as well. Finally many feel that the actions taken by most of the Templars who did act wrongly were not enough to merit a death sentence (and unlike Inquisition there is not an open state of war between Templars and mages) so it's not as if their deaths don't count. For reference I an decidedly anti-Templar in my general stance but still agree with much of the above.
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