History Headscratchers / CivilWar

19th Jun '16 8:14:03 PM nombretomado
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** I guess his plan was to free the unjustly arrested heroes and defeat pro-registration forces, thus showing the government that they have no power to effectively enforce the law, leading to its cancellation or at least negotiations to make it more acceptable (without indefinite incarceration and [[{{Thunderbolts}} hero-hunting murder squads]]). If only he wasn't hit by IdiotBall at the last second...

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** I guess his plan was to free the unjustly arrested heroes and defeat pro-registration forces, thus showing the government that they have no power to effectively enforce the law, leading to its cancellation or at least negotiations to make it more acceptable (without indefinite incarceration and [[{{Thunderbolts}} [[ComicBook/{{Thunderbolts}} hero-hunting murder squads]]). If only he wasn't hit by IdiotBall at the last second...
28th May '16 11:48:48 AM syrusdark
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** "Reed Richards is a genius and thinks this side is right, so it must be right" is a classic example of AppealToAuthority. He's a genius scientist, yes, but this is a socio-political issue, way different from his area of expertise. He may think it's right, he may even come up with formulas and projections to prove his point right, but that doesn't make his view the only or most valid one.
18th May '16 3:14:52 PM AndyLA
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*** Another point in favor of the MCU, where all the damage caused by the large-scale battles, from the Chitauri Invasion in New York all the way to [[spoiler:Scarlet Witch accidentally redirecting Crossbones' suicide bombing into a crowded building in Nigeria]], compounded to allow for the elaboration of the Sokovia Accords, rather than an isolated incident. Note that I used the word "accidentally" in the latter, but that doesn't necessarily soften the blow. Also, with regards to the superhero identities: since most of them already have a public identity in the MCU, that's kind of a moot point, but at no point in ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'' does Tony say that Peter (who, while younger, still doesn't feel safe about sharing his double identity with anyone) has to reveal himself to anyone, implying that you don't need to shout to the world who you are under the mask, as long as you agree to be on call at the United Nations' request.

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*** Another point in favor of the MCU, where all the damage caused by the large-scale battles, from the Chitauri Invasion in New York all the way to [[spoiler:Scarlet Witch accidentally redirecting Crossbones' suicide bombing into a crowded building in Nigeria]], compounded to allow for the elaboration of the Sokovia Accords, rather than an isolated incident. Note that I used the word "accidentally" in the latter, but that doesn't necessarily soften the blow. Also, with regards to the superhero identities: since most of them already have a public identity in the MCU, that's kind of a moot point, but at no point in ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'' does Tony say that Peter (who, while younger, still doesn't feel safe about sharing his double identity with anyone) has to reveal himself to anyone, implying that you don't need to shout to the world who you are under the mask, as long as you agree to be on call at the United Nations' request.request, which was the whole point of the Accords: if the Avengers agreed to sign, they would simply be subscribed to the UN as a global task force, and it's implied that those who don't could do some small-scale crime-fighting on the side with no need to reveal their identities and no legal penalty, unlike with the SHRA.



-->'''Nightthrasher:''' Okay everybody, we're going in. Stay frosty.

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-->'''Nightthrasher:''' -->'''Night Thrasher:''' Okay everybody, we're going in. Stay frosty.



-->'''Nightthrasher:''' Quick! Someone take him out before he- '''*KABOOOOOOOOOM*'''

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-->'''Nightthrasher:''' -->'''Night Thrasher:''' Quick! Someone take him out before he- '''*KABOOOOOOOOOM*'''



** The point is not that Reed reviewed his position on registration (he had shot down the same idea years before), but the lengths they had gone to to enforce it. It's one thing to give a lecture and explain the potential benefits of registering, and yet another encouraging MightMakesRight. Plus, from all that has been seen before, the idea of registering wouldn't work for everyone. See the X-Men for example: registration for superpowered individuals would end up helping enforce anti-mutant sentiment, because - here's assuming Scarlet Witch didn't go ga-ga bonkers - if you were found out as a mutant, registering would be roughly the same as having "MUTIE" stamped on your forehead, and if your townspeople still acts like pre-Civil Rights DeepSouth, you're utterly screwed. Also, for non-mutant heroes, there are other risks, like what happened to Spider-Man: Aunt May took a bullet that was intended for him. But it could've been another supervillain: as you should know, the line of people who want Spider-Man's head on a silver platter goes around the block. And if it weren't her, it could be MJ. Imagine either one of them being trampled by the Rhino; getting fried by Electro and/or the Shocker; drowned by Hydro-Man; smothered by Sandman... The list goes on. Of course, there's the point "supervillains could potentially know about the superheroes' closest individuals" (even though some of them would only have found out after Peter unmasked on live TV), but what about friends and associates? What if they took on a pre-Venom Flash Thompson (who became a ''wheelchair-bound amputee'' after returning from foreign service, lest we forget)? Finally, speaking of this, the idea of supervillains playing ball with the government. The ones who would accept would be only to take a shot at people with whom they have a personal vendetta - and if the hero is an anti-reg, all the best (in a manner of speaking). Example: the Thunderbolts were a pro-reg team with Green Goblin and Bullseye in their roster. Spider-Man and Daredevil were anti-reg, even with Cap's Secret Avengers. From there you can do the math. In short, the problem lay mainly in the old Machiavellian "ends justify the means" philosophy Reed and Tony adopted for the whole debacle.

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** The point is not that Reed reviewed his position on registration (he had shot down the same idea years before), but the lengths they had gone to to enforce it. It's one thing to give a lecture and explain the potential benefits of registering, and yet another encouraging MightMakesRight. Plus, from all that has been seen before, the idea of registering wouldn't work for everyone. See the X-Men for example: registration for superpowered individuals would end up helping enforce anti-mutant sentiment, because - here's assuming Scarlet Witch didn't go ga-ga bonkers - if you were found out as a mutant, registering would be roughly the same as having "MUTIE" stamped on your forehead, and if your townspeople still acts like pre-Civil Rights DeepSouth, you're utterly screwed. Also, for non-mutant heroes, there are other risks, like what happened to Spider-Man: Aunt May took a bullet that was intended for him. But it could've been another supervillain: as you should know, the line of people who want Spider-Man's head on a silver platter goes around the block. And if it weren't her, it could be MJ. Imagine either one of them being trampled by the Rhino; getting fried by Electro and/or the Shocker; drowned by Hydro-Man; smothered by Sandman... The list goes on. Of course, there's the point "supervillains could potentially know about the superheroes' closest individuals" (even though some of them would only have found out after Peter unmasked on live TV), but what about friends and associates? What if they took on a pre-Venom Flash Thompson (who became a ''wheelchair-bound amputee'' after returning from foreign service, lest we forget)? Finally, speaking of this, the idea of supervillains playing ball with the government. The ones who would accept would be only to take a shot at people with whom they have a personal vendetta - and if the hero is an anti-reg, all the best (in a manner of speaking). Example: the Thunderbolts were a pro-reg team with Green Goblin and Bullseye in their roster. Spider-Man (after his defection) and Daredevil were anti-reg, even with Cap's Secret Avengers.anti-reg. From there you can do the math. In short, the problem lay mainly in the old Machiavellian "ends justify the means" philosophy Reed and Tony adopted for the whole debacle.
17th May '16 9:10:31 AM GrigorII
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*** Actually, that was just an AccidentalHero victory, not a result of his strategy. Norman Osbourne fell from power solely because of the disaster caused by trying to attack Asgard. Which was not a problem of the pro-registration doctrine ''per se'', but just of the guy in charge. If he hadn't attempted that, if he had stayed doing what he was already doing, the so-called "Dark Reign" would still be in place, and the fugitive Avengers would have been all captured by now.
17th May '16 7:28:43 AM AndyLA
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**** Another point in favor of the MCU, where all the damage caused by the large-scale battles, from the Chitauri Invasion in New York all the way to [[spoiler:Scarlet Witch accidentally redirecting Crossbones' suicide bombing into a crowded building in Nigeria]], compounded to allow for the elaboration of the Sokovia Accords, rather than an isolated incident. Note that I used the word "accidentally" in the latter, but that doesn't necessarily soften the blow. Also, with regards to the superhero identities: since most of them already have a public identity in the MCU, that's kind of a moot point, but at no point in ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'' does Tony say that Peter (who, while younger, still doesn't feel safe about sharing his double identity with anyone) has to reveal himself to anyone, implying that you don't need to shout to the world who you are under the mask, as long as you agree to be on call at the United Nations' request.
17th May '16 7:17:17 AM AndyLA
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*** This is a point that [[Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar the movie]] touched upon pretty well. The Sokovia Accords (the MCU's equivalent of the SHRA) were only drawn up because of the large-scale damage incurred by the battles between heroes and villains. And none of them are untrained in the slightest, all things considered. Sure, what happened to Sokovia was a result of Ultron's genocidal plan, but the heroes shouldered the responsibility to stop him, and a bad judgement ended up leading the Avengers to make the proverbial omelette in order to prevent a bigger catastrophe, so they ''are'' held accountable (especially considering that [[spoiler:Ultron was completely destroyed]], so he logically wouldn't be able to stand trial even if he could). It sure sounds better than "everybody who can do something fancy must register because a bunch of noobs blew up schoolkids in a suburbia in Connecticut".
15th May '16 8:46:27 PM nombretomado
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* Granted I haven't read this for myself and most of my experience with Marvel comes from the Earth's Mightiest Heroes TV shows and the MarvelCinematicUniverse, so maybe those were kind of inaccurate to the comics characterization or this was explained in story... but isn't Tony being pro-registration [[OutOfCharacterMoment kind of bass-ackwards?]] Someone who spends so much time whining about people touching his stuff and showing open contempt for SHIELD and the government in general doesn't seem like the person who would become an enforcer for said government forcing everyone to give up their stuff... unless he's just a massive hypocritical douche.

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* Granted Granted, I haven't read this for myself and most of my experience with Marvel comes from the Earth's Mightiest Heroes TV shows and the MarvelCinematicUniverse, Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse, so maybe those were kind of inaccurate to the comics characterization or this was explained in story... but isn't Tony being pro-registration [[OutOfCharacterMoment kind of bass-ackwards?]] Someone who spends so much time whining about people touching his stuff and showing open contempt for SHIELD and the government in general doesn't seem like the person who would become an enforcer for said government forcing everyone to give up their stuff... unless he's just a massive hypocritical douche.
14th May '16 12:08:00 AM LBHills
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** Guerrilla warfare is a just a type of combat; it can be used for whatever purpose. Perhaps it's true that most guerrillas attempt to overthrow governments, but if so then that simply means that Cap was an exception to the general trend. All he wanted to do was resist and unjust law until it was overturned. It would be ''ridiculously'' out of character for Cap to install himself as a dictator of any kind.

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** Guerrilla warfare is a just a type of combat; it can be used for whatever purpose. Perhaps it's true that most guerrillas attempt to overthrow governments, but if so then that simply means that Cap was an exception to the general trend. All he wanted to do was resist and an unjust law until it was overturned. It would be ''ridiculously'' out of character for Cap to install himself as a dictator of any kind.



** Good luck with that. Unfortunately for cap, the people genuinely thought that the registration act was the best thing (see the ending of the story). Resisting it just for the sake of being seen resisting it just [[NotHelpingYourCase does not help his case]]. If anything, the average joe will feel more enraged with him as the situation continues, not less.

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** Good luck with that. Unfortunately for cap, Cap, the people genuinely thought that the registration act Registration Act was the best thing (see the ending of the story). Resisting it just for the sake of being seen resisting it just [[NotHelpingYourCase does not help his case]]. If anything, the average joe Joe will feel more enraged with him as the situation continues, not less. less.
*** Fortunately for Cap, the people ''eventually'' realized that living in terror of their protectors wasn't making their world safer (see the epilogue of ''Dark Reign'' and most events since.) Resisting it publicly because it was incompatible with ethical treatment of Americans helped speed this realization. And the average Joe doesn't seem to hold Cap's willful non-compliance with that discredited Act against him anymore.
25th Apr '16 10:27:22 AM AnoSa
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*** That's actually a huge part of why the entire arc is flawed ''from the start''. Really, the best way to have kicked it off if they had really wanted it to be GrayAndGrayMorality would have been to have no villains (super or otherwise) involved: make it [[CouldHaveAvoidedThisPlot a completely avoidable disaster]] that deconstructs just how wrong things could go with very new, very powerful superheroes who get the traditional (total lack of) training and have the relatively common PowerIncontinence problems. It'd even be the easiest time ever to invoke NothingIsTheSameAnymore and do it truthfully: after something like that it'd be reasonable for everybody to agree that the old status quo is no longer acceptable, and the disagreement would then be entirely over what should replace it. No matter who'd win, there ''would'' be changes, and you wouldn't even need to kill off any extra characters to do it.
1st Apr '16 11:11:55 AM ObsidianFire
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*** This. When people go paranoid, sometimes they don't look straight at the usual suspect, they go linking the more plainly-placed pieces instead. Why did Nitro explode? Because he was fighting the New Warriors; that's what he does to have an edge. Why were the New Warriors there? Because they were filming their TV show. Were the villains causing trouble in the streets? No, they were minding their own business. Who was the only survivor of that disaster? Speedball. These score some serious points against the heroes, but the people there are probably GenreBlind enough to not know that Nitro was never that powerful, and that he had taken something like MGH to make such a huge mess. And not just the people, also: it still amazes me that Wolverine was the only one to see this!

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*** This. When people go paranoid, sometimes they don't look straight at the usual suspect, they go linking the more plainly-placed pieces instead. Why did Nitro explode? Because he was fighting the New Warriors; that's what he does to have an edge. Why were the New Warriors there? Because they were filming their TV show. Were the villains causing trouble in the streets? No, they were minding their own business. Who was the only survivor of that disaster? Speedball. These score some serious points against the heroes, but the people there are probably GenreBlind not smart enough to not know that Nitro was never that powerful, and that he had taken something like MGH to make such a huge mess. And not just the people, also: it still amazes me that Wolverine was the only one to see this!



*** The most Wall Bangery thing about this is that you only have to look back to ''ComicBook/FantasticFour #336'' for Reed Richards'[[note]]and here's a Wall Banger inside of a Wall Banger![[/note]] complete, concise, and simple smackdown of the idea of a SHRA as basically "this idea is dumb, racist, makes no sense, can't be enforced, and will never work anyway." There may be good reasons for why people would want a SHRA, many of them in fact, but the truth is that none of them will ever work out with comic book logic. Ergo, Reed Richards [[strike: is]] was GenreSavvy, which in the Marvel Universe is far, far, ''far'' more important than theories of ethics and law.

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*** The most Wall Bangery thing about this is that you only have to look back to ''ComicBook/FantasticFour #336'' for Reed Richards'[[note]]and here's a Wall Banger inside of a Wall Banger![[/note]] complete, concise, and simple smackdown of the idea of a SHRA as basically "this idea is dumb, racist, makes no sense, can't be enforced, and will never work anyway." There may be good reasons for why people would want a SHRA, many of them in fact, but the truth is that none of them will ever work out with comic book logic. Ergo, Reed Richards [[strike: is]] was GenreSavvy, smart, which in the Marvel Universe is far, far, ''far'' more important than theories of ethics and law.
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