History Headscratchers / BlackButler

23rd Oct '17 3:51:50 AM doggolinguist
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* In the final page of Chapter 128, why does Ciel react the way he does in the final panel when Sebastian reaffirms that he "[does] not tell lies"? The horrified+terrified reaction felt out of place with the reply. Been rereading the previous panels leading up to it and I still can't figure out why, but perhaps a detail had slipped my mind. I imagine it's not a the biggest of Big Deals considering all that's happened and wham reveal later on, but I've just been scratching my head all day over it. Is it because (in the specific translation I'm reading anyway) Ciel asked, "You wouldn't lie to me, would you?" and, rather than a simple yes/no, Sebastian answered indirectly (while at the same time not lying) -- and it makes for a significant detail in how the situation unravels later on in the story? Maybe it's just the main reaction to the horror of all that is happening? That's just me speculating and making myself even more confused, so if anyone can give me their answer/analysis/comment for it, please do!
9th Jul '17 10:14:51 PM Miumia
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** Been years since I watched season 1 but to be fair the speech is coming from Ciel, a little kid who doesn't mind dying after getting revenge, has a lot of traumatic baggage and believes you are supposed to deal with your problems without the help of others (probably because he knows his problems would usually get everyone he cares about killed) and Sebastian, who's an amoral demon. They don't have anything resembling a good moral compass and Ciel himself has quite some nihilistic views. Souma was acting like a spoiled brat who believed everyone should love him just because he is who he is. He complains that Agni too is vanishing when he himself doesn't even try to figure out what's wrong with Agni; he expects people to give him stuff like love and loyalty (the same way his money, his servants, his name were all given to him) without trying to understand them in return. He just takes it for granted. Ciel's point wasn't so much "don't let anyone help you" (though I wouldn't pass that notion behind him) such as "Stop needing people for everything and walk on your own feet".
26th Jun '17 6:21:14 PM nombretomado
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*** It's a translation error. TheOtherWiki [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Butler]] says that Kuroshitsuji ended '''March 26, 2009''' and that Kuro II started '''July 1, 2010'''. Also Yana Toboso herself said: "1 year and 3 months have passed since the first TV anime finished" on her [[http://bleachasylum.com/threads/16001-Yana-Toboso-s-2010-7-3-quot-must-read-quot-entry-in-case-someone-missed-it blog]] (look under "Everything for the sake of that person").

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*** It's a translation error. TheOtherWiki Wiki/TheOtherWiki [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Butler]] says that Kuroshitsuji ended '''March 26, 2009''' and that Kuro II started '''July 1, 2010'''. Also Yana Toboso herself said: "1 year and 3 months have passed since the first TV anime finished" on her [[http://bleachasylum.com/threads/16001-Yana-Toboso-s-2010-7-3-quot-must-read-quot-entry-in-case-someone-missed-it blog]] (look under "Everything for the sake of that person").
1st May '17 9:09:19 PM Hong00
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*** Adding to this explanation. it's possible that he might have reasoned that being good-looking would be helpful for his master's purposes, so he took on some generally handsome features. While Vincent was canonically stated to be considered handsome, so he may have had similar features. Much like how modern actors, singers, and models considered good-looking seem like cookie cutter clones (Zoey Deschannel and Katy Perry, for example).
17th Jan '17 12:15:53 PM M4r4
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** It appears that they are getting away with this because of [[spoiler: [[TheFashionista Nina Hopkins's]] love for taking on progressive fashion, and the Phantom 5 are even utilizing [[ChildProdigy Sieglinde]] by having her make stuff like headphones, surround speakers, and floating podiums]]. It's still very weird, though.
2nd Jan '17 2:05:19 AM SeptimusHeap
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* The sex scene with Beast. He's doing it with her to get information on her father figure. And is doing the deed with her WHILE having a nice little conversation about her father figure. [[{{FreudWasRight}} Wait, what?]]

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* The sex scene with Beast. He's doing it with her to get information on her father figure. And is doing the deed with her WHILE having a nice little conversation about her father figure. [[{{FreudWasRight}} Wait, what?]]what?
29th Dec '16 10:55:53 AM DustSnitch
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*** Fine, exclude the YaoiFangirl and we still got the FanDumb of character bashing. Really, it makes sense, especially considering what our fellow Tropers have pointed with the above. And to make this not become a RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment, I'll say my {{Headscratchers}} for this: ''What'' bugs me is how in the world Ciel, being Elizabeth's fiance, ''doesn't know'' his fiancee is [[spoiler: a rapier-wielding BadAss.]] She has entered ''tournaments'' before. Tournaments most likely held by the Queen herself (seeing there's Earl Grey there) and (maybe) posted in newspaper. And this become more like a FridgeLogic than a HeadScratchers.
*** I don't think it'd be good to be stereotyping everyone who hates Lizzy as a YaoiFangirl, and we shouldn't bring who exactly this person is to begin with. The troper's identity is irrelevant. What matters is his opinion. And I'll try to justify why Ciel didn't know about Elizabeth being [[spoiler: a DualWielding BadAss.]] As we ''all'' know, Ciel has a very busy life. He's either managing his company, studying/practicing the violin, or out solving cases for the Queen. I don't think he has the time to look through the daily newspaper and read about Elizabeth. And he's not one for social gatherings, unless he's hosting it or he's snooping around for evidence for the Queen's sake. And everyone else would probably assume that he'd know about Lizzy's... talents, so they didn't bother to tell him.
*** This is my first edit on the Black Butler page so I'm not one of the people who talked previously, but I... kind of agree. I was awfully disappointed when the truth about Elizabeth was revealed. Not because I have something against her backstory or reasons or whatever in particular, but--I'm just so ''tired'' of having every single character be secretly [[spoiler: BadAss.]] I mean, come on. First [[spoiler: the hired help, then the cutesy girlfriend, then the Undertaker... not to mention the extras]]. I'm not going to stop reading or anything because of it, but it is a little tiring to not have any just... normal people, if that makes sense. If only as a basis of comparison to make the mains seem more competent! ...Just my own experience with it; I'm sure some/a lot of people enjoyed seeing everybody being generally awesome, haha.
*** Okay, I can understand that. The fact that [[spoiler: practically everyone is a badass now]] ''does'' ruin the fact that they're supposed to be ''normal''. But then again, WorldOfBadass. I suppose our lovely author is trying to slowly shape the Kuroshitsuji world into a WorldOfBadass. But [[spoiler: Lizzy]] being a [[spoiler: DualWielding BadAss]] does make sense. And even [[spoiler: Undertaker]] ''did'' always seemed to be a bit... unusual, dont you think? I like the [[spoiler: rouge Shinigami thing]] better than what they did with the anime. And the fact that there's no eyeglasses, a nice touch. I didn't like how [[spoiler: Meyrin, Baldroy and Finny became badass]] though, I can give you that for being an AssPull.

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*** Fine, exclude the YaoiFangirl and we still got the FanDumb of character bashing. Really, it makes sense, especially considering what our fellow Tropers have pointed with the above. And to make this not become a RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment, I'll say my {{Headscratchers}} for this: ''What'' bugs me is how in the world Ciel, being Elizabeth's fiance, ''doesn't know'' his fiancee is [[spoiler: a [[spoiler:a rapier-wielding BadAss.badass.]] She has entered ''tournaments'' before. Tournaments most likely held by the Queen herself (seeing there's Earl Grey there) and (maybe) posted in newspaper. And this become more like a FridgeLogic than a HeadScratchers.
*** I don't think it'd be good to be stereotyping everyone who hates Lizzy as a YaoiFangirl, and we shouldn't bring who exactly this person is to begin with. The troper's identity is irrelevant. What matters is his opinion. And I'll try to justify why Ciel didn't know about Elizabeth being [[spoiler: a DualWielding BadAss.Dual Wielding badass.]] As we ''all'' know, Ciel has a very busy life. He's either managing his company, studying/practicing the violin, or out solving cases for the Queen. I don't think he has the time to look through the daily newspaper and read about Elizabeth. And he's not one for social gatherings, unless he's hosting it or he's snooping around for evidence for the Queen's sake. And everyone else would probably assume that he'd know about Lizzy's... talents, so they didn't bother to tell him.
*** This is my first edit on the Black Butler page so I'm not one of the people who talked previously, but I... kind of agree. I was awfully disappointed when the truth about Elizabeth was revealed. Not because I have something against her backstory or reasons or whatever in particular, but--I'm just so ''tired'' of having every single character be secretly [[spoiler: BadAss.[[spoiler:badass.]] I mean, come on. First [[spoiler: the hired help, then the cutesy girlfriend, then the Undertaker... not to mention the extras]]. I'm not going to stop reading or anything because of it, but it is a little tiring to not have any just... normal people, if that makes sense. If only as a basis of comparison to make the mains seem more competent! ...Just my own experience with it; I'm sure some/a lot of people enjoyed seeing everybody being generally awesome, haha.
*** Okay, I can understand that. The fact that [[spoiler: practically [[spoiler:practically everyone is a badass now]] ''does'' ruin the fact that they're supposed to be ''normal''. But then again, WorldOfBadass. I suppose our lovely author is trying to slowly shape the Kuroshitsuji world into a WorldOfBadass. But [[spoiler: Lizzy]] being a [[spoiler: DualWielding BadAss]] [[spoiler:Dual Wielding badass]] does make sense. And even [[spoiler: Undertaker]] ''did'' always seemed to be a bit... unusual, dont you think? I like the [[spoiler: rouge Shinigami thing]] better than what they did with the anime. And the fact that there's no eyeglasses, a nice touch. I didn't like how [[spoiler: Meyrin, [[spoiler:Meyrin, Baldroy and Finny became badass]] though, I can give you that for being an AssPull.
29th Dec '16 10:42:24 AM Morgenthaler
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* Am I the only one who find the household staff being [[spoiler:uber-{{Badass}}]] something of an AssPull or at the very best, CerebusRetcon? Especially annoying is [[spoiler:Maylene. If she is a ColdSniper on crack, why does she keep breaking all the dishes? Why acting so idiotic? What's the point? ObfuscatingStupidity does not explain it because everyone already knows that anyway]]. Seriously, if all they were good for was [[spoiler:to guard the house]], why do they even bother [[spoiler:being a housework staff that they are so incompetent at being at]]?

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* Am I the only one who find the household staff being [[spoiler:uber-{{Badass}}]] [[spoiler:uber-badass]] something of an AssPull or at the very best, CerebusRetcon? Especially annoying is [[spoiler:Maylene. If she is a ColdSniper on crack, why does she keep breaking all the dishes? Why acting so idiotic? What's the point? ObfuscatingStupidity does not explain it because everyone already knows that anyway]]. Seriously, if all they were good for was [[spoiler:to guard the house]], why do they even bother [[spoiler:being a housework staff that they are so incompetent at being at]]?



*** And ''there'' is the entire thing that defines your problem. The above troper just plain ''hates'' Elizabeth. Despite the evidence provided in-story and pointed out by other Tropers, you insist it's an AssPull. Given how you openly admit you hate her, it wouldn't have mattered ''what'' they did with Elizabeth - [[spoiler: revealed her to be a {{Badass}} or remain a plucky little girl]], you would've hated it cause you don't like the character.

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*** And ''there'' is the entire thing that defines your problem. The above troper just plain ''hates'' Elizabeth. Despite the evidence provided in-story and pointed out by other Tropers, you insist it's an AssPull. Given how you openly admit you hate her, it wouldn't have mattered ''what'' they did with Elizabeth - [[spoiler: revealed her to be a {{Badass}} badass or remain a plucky little girl]], you would've hated it cause you don't like the character.
8th Dec '16 11:12:26 AM M4r4
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** This troper actually does recall her telling him to stop at the beginning ("No, stop... you'll make impure!") and she did look a bit nervous before, so it normally would fall under NotIfTheyEnjoyedItRationalization and was even listed as an example there. However, since she ended up genuinely enjoying it and not having any signs of distress after it becomes a little more YMMV.

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** This troper actually does recall her telling Actually, she did tell him to stop at the beginning ("No, stop... ("No... you'll make me impure!") and she did look a bit nervous before, so it normally would fall under NotIfTheyEnjoyedItRationalization and was even listed as an example there. However, since because she ended up genuinely enjoying it and not having any signs of distress after it becomes a little more YMMV.
8th Dec '16 11:08:45 AM M4r4
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** Given how both of Sebastian's "interrogation" scenes went, this troper would not be surprised if they were meant to pay homage to early spy movies where women would be interrogated in a similar manner and sometimes with some iffy implications/execution.



** I don't have any confirmation for either, but I'm pretty sure both rumors are correct. Their relationship is intended to be toxic at best, and in the original hardcore-yaoi version they were supposed to have a destructive, manipulative, toxic relationship where the sex makes the entire thing even more fucked up. So originally it was going to be a story about a manipulative sexual relationship, until Yana Tobos wrote out the sex and made it a destructive, manipulative, toxic relationship without sexual tension. Read the manga chapter where Beast sleeps with Sebastian- you'll see what I mean.
** As it turns out, there was never any real confirmation found on this and this idea supposedly doesn't even exist in the Japanese fandom. So unless something legitimate actually pops up it's probably safe to view this as merely a rumor (albeit a pretty convincing one, given all the HoYay and Toboso's past works).

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** I don't have any confirmation for either, but I'm pretty sure both rumors are correct. Their relationship is intended to be toxic at best, and in the original hardcore-yaoi version they were supposed to have a destructive, manipulative, toxic relationship where the sex makes the entire thing even more fucked up. So originally it was going to be a story about a manipulative sexual relationship, until Yana Tobos wrote out the sex and made it a destructive, manipulative, toxic relationship without sexual tension. Read the manga chapter chapters where Beast Sebastian seduces and sleeps with Sebastian- Beast- you'll see what I mean.
** As it turns out, there was never any real confirmation found on this and this idea supposedly doesn't even exist in the Japanese fandom.fandom (you know, Black Butler's home fandom). So unless something legitimate actually pops up it's probably safe to view this as merely a rumor (albeit a pretty convincing one, given all the HoYay and Toboso's past works).
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