History Headscratchers / BabylonFive

11th Oct '17 12:02:09 PM AFP
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** Clarke had bigger fish to fry consolidating his power base closer to home, it was shown that [=EarthGov=] and elements thereof were fairly routinely sneaking spies and informants onto the station to keep an eye on what Sheridan was doing. Also, Clarke was firmly in the pocket of the Shadows, who probably wanted to keep traffic open so that they had another window into the nucleus of the enemy headquarters.

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** Clarke had bigger fish to fry consolidating his power base closer to home, it was shown that [=EarthGov=] and elements thereof were fairly routinely sneaking spies and informants onto the station to keep an eye on what Sheridan was doing. Also, Clarke was firmly in the pocket of the Shadows, who probably wanted to keep traffic open so that they had another window into the nucleus of the enemy headquarters.headquarters.
** B5's location means that it is likely on or near many trade routes connecting the different sectors of space. The family could have been officially traveling to the Centauri Republic (something of an ally to the Earth Alliance), for instance. We don't ever see how closely the Earth government does or doesn't examine folks' travel itineraries once they leave Earth space. Further, Clark's control of the government is implied to be pretty tenuous, aside from factions of [=EarthForce=] and the Psi Corps moving in their own separate directions, the Postal Service is explicitly shown to maintain an office on B5 and presumably ships mail back and forth, even if through back channels. There's no reason to assume their version of Customs and Border Patrol is any more consistent in enforcing Clark's policies than literally every other Earther agency we've seen.
11th Oct '17 11:56:55 AM AFP
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** The burden of responsibility associated with the post is shown when Sheridan is stressing out early on trying to deal with it all. It's only made worse when Garibaldi chats with him about some minor case his men had been working that day, a level of detail Sheridan doesn't even begin to think he can cope with on a station with a quarter of a million residents. Ivanova suggests that the style of management which suited him well on a starship isn't going to be the best approach on Babylon 5.
11th Oct '17 11:41:30 AM AFP
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\n*** And even the heroes of ''Star Trek'' have made no shortage of morally dubious choices. Bejamin Sisko, TheCaptain on B5's [[Series/DeepSpaceNine rival show]], for one famous example, who willingly did all sorts of bad things, up to and including being an accessory for murder and assassination in order to lure a neutral power into a major war in order to save the Federation. Compare to some of Londo's costlier decisions and his own motives for them. Sometimes folks do terrible things for what (they think and hope) are good reasons. Sometimes it even works out for them, and sometimes it just blows up in their face.

11th Oct '17 9:39:07 AM AFP
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*** Fun historical note: During the UsefulNotes/SpanishAmericanWar, an American cruiser fired on a Spanish fort in Guam. The Spanish fort sent a messenger out in a boat to apologize for not being equipped to return what they thought was a salute. Take this information and make whatever judgments you wish about the [[ImperialStormtrooperMarksmanshipAcademy competence of American naval gunnery in the 1890s.]]
11th Oct '17 9:01:23 AM AFP
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** If you'd like to see a point of view that downplays the crew's achievements, there is the [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA-omGPUwBE "100 years after the Civil War" part of the aforementioned Season 4 finale]]

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** If you'd like to see a point of view that downplays the crew's achievements, there is the [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA-omGPUwBE "100 years after the Civil War" part of the aforementioned Season 4 finale]]finale]]. Even then, the dissenting opinion gets the piss taken out of it in the end by Delenn.
1st Sep '17 3:04:48 AM HalcyonDayz
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** Not to mention the suspicions that [=DS9=] was, to some degree, copied from his original treatment of B5, his outrage at the Star Trek comparisons becomes even more evident.

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** Not to mention the suspicions that [=DS9=] Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine was, to some degree, copied from his original treatment of B5, his outrage at the Star Trek comparisons becomes even more evident.



* Why do some B5 fans accuse ''[[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine [=DS9=]]]'' of ripping it of when B5 used quite a few elements from LotR? I'm not criticizing JMS for borrowing elements of other works, lots of great artists do that. I just think it's kinda hypocritical for people to criticize ''[[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine [=DS9=]]]'' for allegedly doing that.
** JMS went to Paramount to pitch the show as early as 1989. They turned him down - and then as soon as B5 was going somewhere, they announced ''[[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine [=DS9=]]]''. It may have been honest coincidence (I certainly think the Dukat/Dukhat thing is one since the two characters are so dissimilar), but it's much sketchier than borrowing from already published fiction that you didn't personally turn down.

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* Why do some B5 fans accuse ''[[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine [=DS9=]]]'' ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'' of ripping it of when B5 used quite a few elements from LotR? I'm not criticizing JMS for borrowing elements of other works, lots of great artists do that. I just think it's kinda hypocritical for people to criticize ''[[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine [=DS9=]]]'' for allegedly doing that.
** JMS went to Paramount to pitch the show as early as 1989. They turned him down - and then as soon as B5 was going somewhere, they announced ''[[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine [=DS9=]]]''.''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine''. It may have been honest coincidence (I certainly think the Dukat/Dukhat thing is one since the two characters are so dissimilar), but it's much sketchier than borrowing from already published fiction that you didn't personally turn down.



** ''Trek'' fans can definitely be annoying, but I think the claims about the show's influence aren't totally baseless. For example, Martin Cooper, who conceived and led the development of the first cell phone, said he based his idea on ''Trek'''s communicators. The show may not have invented all those sci-fi ideas, but I think it did have a significant impact simply by popularizing them. Anyway, my main point was that I think it's ironic that ''[[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine [=DS9=]]]'' gets accused of ripping off B5 when IMO B5 wasn't especially original to begin with. I think it was original for American TV in its use of story arcs, but IMO the story itself wasn't especially original.

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** ''Trek'' fans can definitely be annoying, but I think the claims about the show's influence aren't totally baseless. For example, Martin Cooper, who conceived and led the development of the first cell phone, said he based his idea on ''Trek'''s communicators. The show may not have invented all those sci-fi ideas, but I think it did have a significant impact simply by popularizing them. Anyway, my main point was that I think it's ironic that ''[[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine [=DS9=]]]'' ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'' gets accused of ripping off B5 when IMO B5 wasn't especially original to begin with. I think it was original for American TV in its use of story arcs, but IMO the story itself wasn't especially original.



** Mostly it's just FandomRivalry. People tend to get upset when they love Thing A, and you claim Thing B is far and away better, or that Thing A was a shameless ripoff of Thing B. There are definite similarities between B5 and DS9, but not enough to conclusively prove that one ripped off the other (which just adds fuel to the fire. . . "DS9 is a ripoff!" "Nuh-uh!" "Uh-huh!") JMS has made a few spiteful jibes at Trek in general, but most of the rivalry is just among the fans. B5 fans saying that it's a better-told story and Trek was starting to get old hat, DS9 fans retorting that B5 stole all of its ideas from earlier Trek, and a sci-fie TV show wouldn't even exist without Trek in the first place, B5 fans retorting that DS9 just stole all their plot from B5. . . the above quote actually sums it up perfectly.

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** Mostly it's just FandomRivalry. People tend to get upset when they love Thing A, and you claim Thing B is far and away better, or that Thing A was a shameless ripoff of Thing B. There are definite similarities between B5 and DS9, Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine, but not enough to conclusively prove that one ripped off the other (which just adds fuel to the fire. . . "DS9 "[=DS9=] is a ripoff!" "Nuh-uh!" "Uh-huh!") JMS has made a few spiteful jibes at Trek in general, but most of the rivalry is just among the fans. B5 fans saying that it's a better-told story and Trek was starting to get old hat, DS9 Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine fans retorting that B5 stole all of its ideas from earlier Trek, and a sci-fie TV show wouldn't even exist without Trek in the first place, B5 fans retorting that DS9 Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine just stole all their plot from B5. . . the above quote actually sums it up perfectly.
1st Sep '17 2:47:54 AM Luppercus
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** If you watch carefully among the group of ambassadors and other unspecified workers in the meetings you can see some human extras, so probably one of them is Earth’s ambassador or at least some sort of representative, just doesn’t have a high profile as Sheridan.

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** If you watch carefully among the group of ambassadors and other unspecified workers in the meetings you can see some human extras, extras ([[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JN4nJ5EIJI for example]]), so probably one of them is Earth’s Earth's ambassador or at least some sort of representative, just doesn’t doesn't have a high profile as Sheridan.
1st Sep '17 1:54:10 AM Luppercus
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** Lorien also openly says in the show that "A Vorlon's body is '''mostly''' energy"[[note]] This could be the Spanish version dub though[[/note]], thus they do have still some organic parts.


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** It's also realistic; most likely humans won't stand a chance against a more advance alien species in RealLife. Also as a viewer from a country that is not a military power it was kind of refreshing to see Earth losing a war against aliens for a change, I really never buy the idea that humans will kick alien buts so easily as it's often shown *cough* Film/IndependenceDay *cough*.
1st Sep '17 1:15:02 AM Luppercus
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** In the RPG guide books (which are great by the way, but hard to find now) particularly in Wars of the Ancients, is explained that the grudge between the Vorlons and the Walkers of Cygma started when eons ago a recently ascended race name Kishiaks started to conquest younger races and also took the then esentially abandoned Walkers's space because they were exploring other dimension. The Vorlon found out but did nothing to avoid it. In case you wonder how it ended, the Walkers and the Shadows and other First One go to war against the Kishiaks and defeat them, but they become part of the First Ones' club. That's also the reason why the Jumpgates exists, the Kishiaks discover hyperspace by their own and was until then that they become noticeable for the other First Ones. The Vorlons theorize that the level of development to understand, reverse-engineer and use the Jumpgates is high, but much lower than the level needed to develop them on their own so the First One place the Jumpgates as a way to know when a Younger Race has certain level of evolution. Also the Walkers are obsessed with cataloguing ''everything'', they have like a collective OCD, thus that may explain their still lasting obsession with their Vorlon grudge, is an alien psychology after all.

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** In the RPG guide books (which are great by the way, but hard to find now) particularly in Wars of the Ancients, is explained that the grudge between the Vorlons and the Walkers of Cygma started when eons ago a recently ascended race name Kishiaks started to conquest younger races and also took the then esentially abandoned Walkers's space because they were exploring other dimension. The Vorlon found out but did nothing to avoid it. In case you wonder how it ended, the Walkers and the Shadows and other First One Ones go to war against the Kishiaks and defeat them, but they become part of the First Ones' club. That's also the reason why the Jumpgates exists, the Kishiaks discover hyperspace by their own and was until then that they become noticeable for the other First Ones. The Vorlons theorize that the level of development to understand, reverse-engineer and use the Jumpgates is high, but much lower than the level needed to develop them on their own so the First One Ones place the Jumpgates as a way to know when a Younger Race has certain level of evolution. Also the Walkers are obsessed with cataloguing ''everything'', they have like a collective OCD, thus that may explain their still lasting obsession with their Vorlon grudge, is an alien psychology after all.
1st Sep '17 1:12:47 AM Luppercus
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** In the RPG guide books (which are great by the way, but hard to find now) particularly in Wars of the Ancients, is explained that the grudge between the Vorlons and the Walkers of Cygma started when eons ago a recently ascended race name Kishiaks started to conquest younger races and also took the then esentially abandoned Walkers's space because they were exploring other dimension. The Vorlon found out but did nothing to avoid it. In case you wonder how it ended, the Walkers and the Shadows and other First One go to war against the Kishiaks and defeat them, but they become part of the First Ones' club. That's also the reason why the Jumpgates exists, the Kishiaks discover hyperspace by their own and was until then that they become noticeable for the other First Ones. The Vorlons theorize that the level of development to understand, reverse-engineer and use the Jumpgates is high, but much lower than the level needed to develop them on their own so the First One place the Jumpgates as a way to know when a Younger Race has certain level of evolution. Also the Walkers are obsessed with cataloguing ''everything'', they have like a collective OCD, thus that may explain their still lasting obsession with their Vorlon grudge, is an alien psychology after all.


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** Also I think the Minbari had a different concept of war, at least the warrior caste, that you whether win or surrender, no middle point. Is an alien culture after all. That or maybe they didn't really get any word that could properly explain that they meant: "Look, we are not going to anihilate you after all", this has no universal translators ala Star Trek, they probably just found a word that was the closest of what they meant.
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