History Headscratchers / AshestoAshes

23rd Feb '16 12:36:01 AM MisterNobody
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*Also, it could have been the smell, not the sight. The rabbit was dead long enough to have collected maggots, after all, and rotten meat is pretty foul.
2nd Feb '16 11:26:53 AM radvaq
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Shaz says they claim to be anti-revisitionists (which would mean they'd subscribe to some variety of Stalinism, Maoism, or Hoxhaism), but in her opinion they're actually Trotskyists. However, the RWF lady who ends up discussing feminism with Chris is clearly using rhetoric straight out of critical theory, which is associated with the Marx-influenced Frankfurt school, which is normally dismissed as revisionism by most Lenin-influenced Marxist circles - meaning she is almost certainly not an anti-revisitionist, a Trotskyist, or any kind of Marxist-Leninist at all. If she is a Marxist, she's a Western Marxist and probably views Leninists as authoritarian class traitors. The RWF are pure strawman so RuleOfFunny probably applies, but in-universe either the political science of Marxism makes absolutely no sense or Shaz was just talking bollocks.

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Shaz says they claim to be anti-revisitionists (which would mean they'd subscribe to some variety of Stalinism, Maoism, or Hoxhaism), but in her opinion they're actually Trotskyists. However, the RWF lady who ends up discussing feminism with Chris is clearly using rhetoric straight out of critical theory, which is associated with the Marx-influenced Frankfurt school, which and is normally dismissed as revisionism by most Lenin-influenced Marxist circles - meaning she is almost certainly not an anti-revisitionist, a Trotskyist, or any kind of Marxist-Leninist at all. If she is a Marxist, she's a Western Marxist and probably views Leninists as authoritarian class traitors. The RWF are pure strawman so RuleOfFunny probably applies, but in-universe either the political science of Marxism makes absolutely no sense or Shaz was just talking bollocks.
2nd Feb '16 11:22:30 AM radvaq
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!The ideological leanings of the RWF make no sense.
Shaz says they claim to be anti-revisitionists (which would mean they'd subscribe to some variety of Stalinism, Maoism, or Hoxhaism), but in her opinion they're actually Trotskyists. However, the RWF lady who ends up discussing feminism with Chris is clearly using rhetoric straight out of critical theory, which is associated with the Marx-influenced Frankfurt school, which is normally dismissed as revisionism by most Lenin-influenced Marxist circles - meaning she is almost certainly not an anti-revisitionist, a Trotskyist, or any kind of Marxist-Leninist at all. If she is a Marxist, she's a Western Marxist and probably views Leninists as authoritarian class traitors. The RWF are pure strawman so RuleOfFunny probably applies, but in-universe either the political science of Marxism makes absolutely no sense or Shaz was just talking bollocks.
21st Dec '15 8:05:54 AM dixons57
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!Why did Ray [[spoiler: go to heaven]]?
In [[spoiler: "real-life" he 1) beat a guy to death due to his own frustrations]]. In Life on Mars he [[spoiler: 2) tortured a teenager to death in police custody by forcing him to take cocaine, and tried to cover it up - attacking Sam in the process, 3) was a misogynistic, racist, homophobic thug throughout the entirety of Life on Mars]] and was just a general Jerkass all round to Sam and most others. In comparison Viv [[spoiler: smuggled a gun into a prison in an attempt to get his brother freed from his sentence, which is admittedly a fairly heinous crime (if still done for altruistic reasons), but he was also the only officer who protested against beating a restrained suspect to death. So in comparison to Ray seemed like a more "good" person, but is immediately condemned to hell after one mistake.]] Ray on the other hand doesn't seem to have done anything to [[spoiler: redeem himself]], other than maybe being less aggressive during Ashes to Ashes.
30th Apr '15 3:22:55 PM TigerHeart
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!Why was Shaz [[spoiler: in the 1980s]] in the first place?
In the finale, it's revealed that she [[spoiler: died in 1995, or thereabouts.]] Considering everything else we find out in that episode, it seems a bit odd that [[spoiler: she was sent back in time, instead of dealing with her traumatic death in a 1990s world. There didn't seem to be any previous unfinished business linking her to the early 80s.]] Wouldn't it have made just as much sense for the plot to just have [[spoiler: set her death in around 1980]]?
16th Dec '14 3:42:50 PM orangecathat
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Ok, so in reality it seems pretty clear that TheUnseen wife of Gene Hunt was largely there as a joke in ''Series/{{Life On Mars|2006}}'' and got written out of this series so Gene and Alex could have UnresolvedSexualTension. But given the reveals, it's interesting to wonder: [[spoiler:Did she exist at all? If so, was she a lost soul like Alex et al, or one of the imaginary people that it seems (?) most of the population are, possibly including all those in Gene's team who never get any lines. The latter seems a bit strange (are those people "real" enough to marry?), but the former would presumably imply she was in the police, which also seems doubtful. Gene having been married seems much more interesting in light of Keats mocking him for always being alone.]]

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Ok, so in reality it seems pretty clear that TheUnseen wife of Gene Hunt was largely there as a joke in ''Series/{{Life On Mars|2006}}'' and got written out of this series so Gene and Alex could have UnresolvedSexualTension. But given the reveals, it's interesting to wonder: [[spoiler:Did she exist at all? If so, was she a lost soul like Alex et al, or one of the imaginary people that it seems (?) most of the population are, possibly including all those in Gene's team who never get any lines. The latter seems a bit strange (are those people "real" enough to marry?), but the former would presumably imply she was in the police, which also seems doubtful. Gene having been married seems much more interesting in light of Keats mocking him for always being alone.]]
* I took the Missus as [[spoiler:being a part of the grizzled middle-aged copper identity that 19-year old Gene Hunt took on, since a wife and an unexciting marriage largely irrelevant to his duties is something a middle-aged copper in the 1970s would have. The reason she isn't seen could be because Gene's life literally consists of his duties as a policeman. This would also nicely explain her "leaving him", also part of the bitter, grouchy old copper fantasy. Which, incidentally, allows him to have a more exciting, if caustic, relationship with the real Alex.
]]
25th Jan '13 5:06:28 PM DonTriezieme
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\n** This is fairly obviously a case of hallucinations within hallucinations; [[spoiler: he simply imagined the comment about him being a lunatic]] Or alternatively [[spoiler: The guy was allways a lunatic, and Sam inadvertantly TrickedOutTime]]
9th Nov '12 10:00:39 PM nombretomado
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!In the first episode, Alex mentions everyone from LifeOnMars excepts Annie but no-one mentions Annie. Did Sam never mention her?

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!In the first episode, Alex mentions everyone from LifeOnMars ''Series/{{Life On Mars|2006}}'' excepts Annie but no-one mentions Annie. Did Sam never mention her?



Look, writers: I know Marshall Lancaster is adorable, and DC Chris Skelton's lovable naivete is a great source of comic relief, but: ''as of mid-1982, he has been a detective for '''at least ten years.''''' (He was on the 1972 investigation of the teenager killed in the "Camberwick Green" episode of ''LifeOnMars'', albeit as a rookie.) He should ''not'' be vomiting uncontrollably at the sight of a dead rabbit. Come on, writers: this strains credibility just a tad.

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Look, writers: I know Marshall Lancaster is adorable, and DC Chris Skelton's lovable naivete is a great source of comic relief, but: ''as of mid-1982, he has been a detective for '''at least ten years.''''' (He was on the 1972 investigation of the teenager killed in the "Camberwick Green" episode of ''LifeOnMars'', ''Series/{{Life On Mars|2006}}'', albeit as a rookie.) He should ''not'' be vomiting uncontrollably at the sight of a dead rabbit. Come on, writers: this strains credibility just a tad.



Ok, so in reality it seems pretty clear that TheUnseen wife of Gene Hunt was largely there as a joke in ''LifeOnMars'' and got written out of this series so Gene and Alex could have UnresolvedSexualTension. But given the reveals, it's interesting to wonder: [[spoiler:Did she exist at all? If so, was she a lost soul like Alex et al, or one of the imaginary people that it seems (?) most of the population are, possibly including all those in Gene's team who never get any lines. The latter seems a bit strange (are those people "real" enough to marry?), but the former would presumably imply she was in the police, which also seems doubtful. Gene having been married seems much more interesting in light of Keats mocking him for always being alone.]]

to:

Ok, so in reality it seems pretty clear that TheUnseen wife of Gene Hunt was largely there as a joke in ''LifeOnMars'' ''Series/{{Life On Mars|2006}}'' and got written out of this series so Gene and Alex could have UnresolvedSexualTension. But given the reveals, it's interesting to wonder: [[spoiler:Did she exist at all? If so, was she a lost soul like Alex et al, or one of the imaginary people that it seems (?) most of the population are, possibly including all those in Gene's team who never get any lines. The latter seems a bit strange (are those people "real" enough to marry?), but the former would presumably imply she was in the police, which also seems doubtful. Gene having been married seems much more interesting in light of Keats mocking him for always being alone.]]
1st Mar '12 9:28:17 AM CrypticMirror
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** Gene isn't entirely unaware of his status as a psychopomp though. He chooses not to remember a lot of it, presumably for the sake of his own sanity, but he is aware of it at some level. Presumably with Bevan he chose to stop forgetting enough to tell Bevan and then afterwards went back to his choosing to forget.




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* If you got fired you probably ended up like poor Viv, this is the last chance saloon for coppers souls after all. You get to fix whatever it is you've not dealt with, fail to fix and that's it. Quitting would probably result in a trip to the pub. You've dealt with your issue, you aren't a copper anymore and its time to move on. Getting killed, I suppose it depends how you get killed. If it is by going against the coppers code, then it is probably a trip downstairs, or if it is in line of duty you probably moved on (or just started again in another squadroom, like a series of russian dolls).
21st Feb '12 7:23:46 PM Nitro378
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*** [[spoiler: I always took Gene taking young Alex's hand to be just the afterlife universe overwriting her real memories. (as is seen more later on in the Series 2 and 3) And if the woman in the red dress really is murdered and really is Annie, it's arguably Fridge Brilliance as that seems exactly the kind of trauma that could get coppers sent to Gene's world. You could even say that Annie's relationship with Sam is her version of 'making peace', like Shaz, Chris, and Ray do, with their death and in her case the Tyler family (from what we know of his character, Vic probably only became a crime lord because he wanted to give Sam a better future than a cleaning supplies salesman could give). It doesn't matter that Vic couldn't attack Annie in Gene's world, because we know it's not really time travel and it's not the same timeline.]]




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!With what we know about [[spoiler: the unreal nature of Gene's World]] from Ashes to Ashes, how can the Casino owner in Life on Mars be explained?
In Life on Mars (I forget which episode), a dirty Casino owner/crime lord that Sam knows from 2006(?), tries to kill him in the hospital. Sam remembers making a watertight case against him after he kills his wife Eve, and he was set to be sent down when Sam goes into a coma. Sam manages to have him declared insane in 1972(?) through some hijinks after telling him about the future, and he then hears nurses talking about the person who attacked him in the hospital being a lunatic kept there since 1972(?). At the time it seemed that Sam had altered the future through his actions in the past, [[spoiler: but since we now know from Ashes to Ashes that he was not time travelling but was in Gene's world, and could not affect the future because he wasn't in the real world,]] it stands out at the most significant plot hole in the duality, in a universe that is otherwise surprisingly well wrapped up (considering the complexity of the story).

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