History HarsherInHindsight / RealLife

16th Jul '17 11:51:07 AM nombretomado
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*** This is a bit of an unusual example, however, if only because unlike most modern commentators, Ferdinand Foch's argument was not that the Treaty was too harsh but rather that ''it wasn't harsh enough''. Foch was among many French statesmen and military figures who believed that Germany after WWI should have been partitioned and forcibly disarmed. Incidentally, this is EXACTLY what Machiavelli proposed (roughly paraphrased): either destroy your enemies so utterly that they cannot seek revenge, or be lenient, so that any desire for revenge would be outweighed by fear of another defeat. After WW2 both happened: West Germany was treated leniently, and became a staunch NATO ally throughout the worst of the Cold War. East Germany was totally stripped of anything useful and lost almost all of its autonomy to the USSR. In other words, the Treaty managed to be EXACTLY wrong, proving practically all of its critics right. Of course, that treatment also resulted in [[UsefulNotes/ColdWar a bad side-effect...]]

to:

*** This is a bit of an unusual example, however, if only because unlike most modern commentators, Ferdinand Foch's argument was not that the Treaty was too harsh but rather that ''it wasn't harsh enough''. Foch was among many French statesmen and military figures who believed that Germany after WWI should have been partitioned and forcibly disarmed. Incidentally, this is EXACTLY what Machiavelli proposed (roughly paraphrased): either destroy your enemies so utterly that they cannot seek revenge, or be lenient, so that any desire for revenge would be outweighed by fear of another defeat. After WW2 [=WW2=] both happened: West Germany was treated leniently, and became a staunch NATO ally throughout the worst of the Cold War. East Germany was totally stripped of anything useful and lost almost all of its autonomy to the USSR. In other words, the Treaty managed to be EXACTLY wrong, proving practically all of its critics right. Of course, that treatment also resulted in [[UsefulNotes/ColdWar a bad side-effect...]]
10th Jul '17 9:43:43 PM Yalsaris63
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* During UsefulNotes/WorldWarI, the Entente frequently propagated that Germany and its allies were committing genocide in its occupied territories. And while the Germans were pretty trigger-happy when it came to executing civilians in reprisal for partisan attacks, especially in Belgium, it barely rose to the level of war crimes, let alone genocide, which didn't stop the British and French from propagating the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium 'Rape of Belgium']]. Thus, [[CryingWolf when the same accusation was made three decades later, not a lot of people believed it.]] Only after 1945 did these exact things came to light and they were revealed to have been a whole ''lot'' grander than imagined, not just in Belgium but in other parts of Europe as well. Guess who were the ones responsible? The facts speak for themselves in the most macabre and irrefutable manner possible and suddenly, the whole world collectively got nonplussed. An entire generation would forever be haunted after this [[UsefulNotes/TheForties particular decade]].

to:

* During UsefulNotes/WorldWarI, the Entente frequently propagated that Germany and its allies were committing genocide in its occupied territories. And while the Germans were pretty trigger-happy when it came to executing civilians in reprisal for partisan attacks, especially in Belgium, it barely rose to the level of war crimes, let alone genocide, which didn't stop the British and French from propagating the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium 'Rape of Belgium']]. Thus, [[CryingWolf when the same accusation was made three decades later, not a lot of people believed it.]] Only after 1945 did these exact things came to light and they were revealed to have been a whole ''lot'' grander than imagined, not just in Belgium but in other parts of Europe as well. Guess who were the ones responsible? The facts speak for themselves in the most macabre and irrefutable manner possible and suddenly, the whole world collectively got nonplussed. An entire generation would forever be haunted scarred after this [[UsefulNotes/TheForties particular decade]].
9th Jul '17 10:54:18 PM Yalsaris63
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* During UsefulNotes/WorldWarI, the Entente frequently propagated that Germany and its allies were committing genocide in its occupied territories. And while the Germans were pretty trigger-happy when it came to executing civilians in reprisal for partisan attacks, especially in Belgium, it barely rose to the level of war crimes, let alone genocide, which didn't stop the British and French from propagating the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium 'Rape of Belgium']]. Thus, [[CryingWolf when the same accusation was made three decades later, not a lot of people believed it.]] Only after 1945 did these exact things came to light and they were revealed to have been a whole ''lot'' grander than imagined. The facts speak for themselves in the most macabre and irrefutable manner possible and suddenly, the whole world collectively got nonplussed. An entire generation would forever be haunted after this [[UsefulNotes/TheForties particular decade]].

to:

* During UsefulNotes/WorldWarI, the Entente frequently propagated that Germany and its allies were committing genocide in its occupied territories. And while the Germans were pretty trigger-happy when it came to executing civilians in reprisal for partisan attacks, especially in Belgium, it barely rose to the level of war crimes, let alone genocide, which didn't stop the British and French from propagating the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium 'Rape of Belgium']]. Thus, [[CryingWolf when the same accusation was made three decades later, not a lot of people believed it.]] Only after 1945 did these exact things came to light and they were revealed to have been a whole ''lot'' grander than imagined. imagined, not just in Belgium but in other parts of Europe as well. Guess who were the ones responsible? The facts speak for themselves in the most macabre and irrefutable manner possible and suddenly, the whole world collectively got nonplussed. An entire generation would forever be haunted after this [[UsefulNotes/TheForties particular decade]].
9th Jul '17 10:02:58 PM Yalsaris63
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** In fact, something of a subversion: ''The Great Illusion'' argued that any war would be too costly to be considered logical, making peace between all the major nations the best possible choice...and that proved right: after both world wars, the European powers (and Japan) went on to lose ALL of their colonies, gained no territory, accrued debt that took DECADES to pay off, and ended up trapped in a Cold War that terrified EVERYONE who lived through it with the possibility of nuclear extinction and forced military spending up so high for the US/NATO and the USSR/PACT countries that both ended up in a massive number of proxy wars in an attempt to justify the cost of their militarism, for fear that the civilians would undermine the military budget and lead either power unable to face the other. If neither war had occurred, the 20th century could very well have been the most prosperous in history; instead, it became the most terrifying. Specifically, if World War I hadn't occurred, the Great Depression and the later wars would never had occurred either. [[SarcasmMode Thanks]], [[HumansAreMorons humanity]]...

to:

** In fact, something of a subversion: ''The Great Illusion'' argued that any war would be too costly to be considered logical, making peace between all the major nations the best possible choice...and that proved right: after both world wars, the European powers (and Japan) went on to lose ALL of their colonies, gained no territory, accrued debt that took DECADES to pay off, and ended up trapped in a Cold War that terrified EVERYONE who lived through it with the possibility of nuclear extinction and forced military spending up so high for the US/NATO and the USSR/PACT countries that both ended up in a massive number of proxy wars in an attempt to justify the cost of their militarism, for fear that the civilians would undermine the military budget and lead either power unable to face the other. If neither war had occurred, the 20th century could very well have been the most prosperous in history; instead, it became the most terrifying. Specifically, if World War I hadn't occurred, the Great Depression and the later wars would never had occurred either. [[SarcasmMode Thanks]], [[HumansAreMorons humanity]]...
9th Jul '17 10:00:57 PM Yalsaris63
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** In fact, something of a subversion: ''The Great Illusion'' argued that any war would be too costly to be considered logical, making peace between all the major nations the best possible choice...and that proved right: after both world wars, the European powers (and Japan) went on to lose ALL of their colonies, gained no territory, accrued debt that took DECADES to pay off, and ended up trapped in a Cold War that terrified EVERYONE who lived through it with the possibility of nuclear extinction and forced military spending up so high for the US/NATO and the USSR/PACT countries that both ended up in a massive number of proxy wars in an attempt to justify the cost of their militarism, for fear that the civilians would undermine the military budget and lead either power unable to face the other. If neither war had occurred, the 20th century could very well have been the most prosperous in history; instead, it became the most terrifying.

to:

** In fact, something of a subversion: ''The Great Illusion'' argued that any war would be too costly to be considered logical, making peace between all the major nations the best possible choice...and that proved right: after both world wars, the European powers (and Japan) went on to lose ALL of their colonies, gained no territory, accrued debt that took DECADES to pay off, and ended up trapped in a Cold War that terrified EVERYONE who lived through it with the possibility of nuclear extinction and forced military spending up so high for the US/NATO and the USSR/PACT countries that both ended up in a massive number of proxy wars in an attempt to justify the cost of their militarism, for fear that the civilians would undermine the military budget and lead either power unable to face the other. If neither war had occurred, the 20th century could very well have been the most prosperous in history; instead, it became the most terrifying. Specifically, if World War I hadn't occurred, the Great Depression and the later wars would never had occurred either. [[SarcasmMode Thanks]], [[HumansAreMorons humanity]]...
9th Jul '17 9:53:29 PM Yalsaris63
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* During UsefulNotes/WorldWarI, the Entente frequently propagated that Germany and its allies were committing genocide in its occupied territories. And while the Germans were pretty trigger-happy when it came to executing civilians in reprisal for partisan attacks, especially in Belgium, it barely rose to the level of war crimes, let alone genocide, which didn't stop the British and French from propagating the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium 'Rape of Belgium']]. Thus, [[CryingWolf when the same accusation was made three decades later, not a lot of people believed it.]] Only after 1945 did these exact things came to light and they were revealed to have been a whole ''lot'' grander than imagined. An entire generation would forever be haunted after this [[UsefulNotes/TheForties particular decade]].

to:

* During UsefulNotes/WorldWarI, the Entente frequently propagated that Germany and its allies were committing genocide in its occupied territories. And while the Germans were pretty trigger-happy when it came to executing civilians in reprisal for partisan attacks, especially in Belgium, it barely rose to the level of war crimes, let alone genocide, which didn't stop the British and French from propagating the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium 'Rape of Belgium']]. Thus, [[CryingWolf when the same accusation was made three decades later, not a lot of people believed it.]] Only after 1945 did these exact things came to light and they were revealed to have been a whole ''lot'' grander than imagined. The facts speak for themselves in the most macabre and irrefutable manner possible and suddenly, the whole world collectively got nonplussed. An entire generation would forever be haunted after this [[UsefulNotes/TheForties particular decade]].
9th Jul '17 9:37:18 PM Yalsaris63
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* An American journalist, [[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,764628,00.html Eugene P. Lyle Jr.]], wrote that by 1938 a defeated Germany would rise again to start [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarII a war of "monstrous proportions"]]. This was in 1918, ''two months'' before the end of [=WW1=] (which caused everyone to forget about the article, according to the link).

to:

* An American journalist, [[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,764628,00.html Eugene P. Lyle Jr.]], wrote that by 1938 [[TemptingFate a defeated Germany would rise again to start start]] [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarII a war of "monstrous proportions"]]. This was in 1918, ''two months'' before the end of [=WW1=] (which caused everyone to forget about the article, according to the link).
9th Jul '17 9:32:59 PM Yalsaris63
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* During UsefulNotes/WorldWarI, the Entente frequently propagated that Germany and its allies were committing genocide in its occupied territories. And while the Germans were pretty trigger-happy when it came to executing civilians in reprisal for partisan attacks, especially in Belgium, it barely rose to the level of war crimes, let alone genocide, which didn't stop the British and French from propagating the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium 'Rape of Belgium']]. Thus, [[CryingWolf when the same accusation was made three decades later, not a lot of people believed it.]]

to:

* During UsefulNotes/WorldWarI, the Entente frequently propagated that Germany and its allies were committing genocide in its occupied territories. And while the Germans were pretty trigger-happy when it came to executing civilians in reprisal for partisan attacks, especially in Belgium, it barely rose to the level of war crimes, let alone genocide, which didn't stop the British and French from propagating the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium 'Rape of Belgium']]. Thus, [[CryingWolf when the same accusation was made three decades later, not a lot of people believed it.]]]] Only after 1945 did these exact things came to light and they were revealed to have been a whole ''lot'' grander than imagined. An entire generation would forever be haunted after this [[UsefulNotes/TheForties particular decade]].
23rd Jun '17 9:33:29 AM jmic419
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** Don't forget that the US government was [[http://www.globalresearch.ca/court-decision-u-s-government-agencies-found-guilty-in-martin-luther-kings-assassination/5320024 found guilty of his assassination]] in a civil suit several decades later. It's quite likely that there was some inkling of knowledge involved.
13th Jun '17 11:54:22 PM Dingbot
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** About the foundation of a german state 1871: ''"Let us lift Germany, so to speak, into the saddle. Surely when that is achieved, it will succeed at riding as well."'' It didn't. After 1900, Germany spended the first 45 years of the century starting,fighting and losing two world wars,had three different goverments who all failed in the end, and was divided into two different countries after that. It took another 45 years until Germany was reunited.

to:

** About the foundation of a german German state in 1871: ''"Let us lift Germany, so to speak, into the saddle. Surely when that is achieved, it will succeed at riding as well."'' It didn't. After 1900, Germany spended spent the first 45 years of the century starting,fighting starting, fighting, and losing two world wars,had wars, had three different goverments governments who all failed in the end, and was divided into two different countries after that. It took another 45 years until Germany was reunited.



** ''"Hit the Poles so hard that they despair of their life; I have full sympathy with their condition, but if we want to survive, we can only exterminate them."'' During UsefulNotes/WorldWarII, Poland was one of the first victims of german aggression, and the country with the highest casualties[[note]]In proportion to pre-war population. Highest overall casualties belongs to the citizens of the Soviet Union[[/note]], half of the jews killied during TheHolocaust were Polish.

to:

** ''"Hit the Poles so hard that they despair of their life; I have full sympathy with their condition, but if we want to survive, we can only exterminate them."'' During UsefulNotes/WorldWarII, Poland was one of the first victims of german German aggression, and the country with the highest casualties[[note]]In proportion to pre-war population. Highest overall casualties belongs to the citizens of the Soviet Union[[/note]], half of the jews killied Jews killed during TheHolocaust were Polish.
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