History Fridge / TheSilmarillion

20th Dec '15 4:44:53 PM nombretomado
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* The elves are described dwelling far beyond the sea, on the other side of impassable mountains, beneath the earth in elaborate underground palaces, and in the deep, enchanted forests. In other words, in exactly the places where the Celts used to believe TheFairFolk to dwell. This is most definitely not a coincidence, but a deliberate attempt to tie ''TheSilmarillion'' to the real world mythology.

to:

* The elves are described dwelling far beyond the sea, on the other side of impassable mountains, beneath the earth in elaborate underground palaces, and in the deep, enchanted forests. In other words, in exactly the places where the Celts used to believe TheFairFolk to dwell. This is most definitely not a coincidence, but a deliberate attempt to tie ''TheSilmarillion'' ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'' to the real world mythology.



* It is mentioned that Elrond kept and compiled the stories of the Elves in Middle-Earth in Rivendell, and that Bilbo translated works from Elvish to the Common Tongue while he was in Rivendell. Presumably, ''TheSilmarillion'' was written by Elrond, translated into the Common Tongue by Bilbo, and then translated into English by Tolkien. That would explain why it is told from an Elvish point of view, though with a very generous regard for select humans.

to:

* It is mentioned that Elrond kept and compiled the stories of the Elves in Middle-Earth in Rivendell, and that Bilbo translated works from Elvish to the Common Tongue while he was in Rivendell. Presumably, ''TheSilmarillion'' ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'' was written by Elrond, translated into the Common Tongue by Bilbo, and then translated into English by Tolkien. That would explain why it is told from an Elvish point of view, though with a very generous regard for select humans.
13th Dec '15 10:14:23 AM akanesarumara
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** Some editions of TheChildrenOfHurin include some explanation on this matter in the form of a short prologue by Christopher Tolkien. According to this, Húrin was semi-forced to look into Morgoth's eyes, and then either saw with his own eyes what happened or had visions of it. How much Húrin saw and how accurate that was is still a question though, but the explanation adds that Húrin indeed could have looked away himself and wouldn't have had to beg, he was just that desperate for infos, even from an unreliable source... and he was just that confident that he would be able to tell truth from lies.
21st Jan '15 11:02:20 AM ChrisDen
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* All the valar come in pairs, with three exceptions: Ulmo, who chose to live alone, Nienna, and Melkor. It is stated that Nienna is sorrowful and patient, and weeps for the wounds of the world. Could it possibly be that Melkor is her lost love? That would make her sorrow even more poignant. Her patience seems infinite, also when we remember that Melkor actually wanted Varda for a spouse, but she rejected him. So Nienna can`t do anything but weep.

to:

* All the valar come in pairs, with three exceptions: Ulmo, who chose to live alone, Nienna, and Melkor. It is stated that Nienna is sorrowful and patient, and weeps for the wounds of the world. Could it possibly be that Melkor is her lost love? That would make her sorrow even more poignant. Her patience seems infinite, also when we remember that Melkor actually wanted Varda for a spouse, but she rejected him. So Nienna can`t can't do anything but weep.



** When Melkor tried to destroy the realm of Ulmo with cold he inadvertently created all beautiful and marvelous shapes of ice and snow, and a new enviroment for Yavanna's creatures. When he tried to evaporate the sea, he created clouds that carried water inland. When he destroyed the Lamps he forced the Valar to replace them with even more beautiful creations (the Two Trees), and when he destroyed them in turn, the Valar created the Sun and the Moon... whatever evil Melkor does, it eventually has also good results that enhance the World. It is impossible having those good things without the evil that causes them and the eternal struggle between good and evil, so even though evil is and must be fought, its existence is necessary in the great scheme.

to:

** When Melkor tried to destroy the realm of Ulmo with cold he inadvertently created all beautiful and marvelous shapes of ice and snow, and a new enviroment environment for Yavanna's creatures. When he tried to evaporate the sea, he created clouds that carried water inland. When he destroyed the Lamps he forced the Valar to replace them with even more beautiful creations (the Two Trees), and when he destroyed them in turn, the Valar created the Sun and the Moon... whatever evil Melkor does, it eventually has also good results that enhance the World. It is impossible having those good things without the evil that causes them and the eternal struggle between good and evil, so even though evil is and must be fought, its existence is necessary in the great scheme.
13th Oct '14 7:54:57 AM MachRider1985
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Not sure if this was intentional on Tolkien's part or not, but while Morgoth is BigBad for the overall story, each of the three "Great Tales" which form the most significant arcs of the mythology features a significant role from one of his three [[CoDragons chief lieutenants]]- Sauron in "Beren and Lúthien", Glaurung in "Children of Húrin", and Gothmog in "The Fall of Gondolin".

to:

* Not sure if this was intentional on Tolkien's part or not, but while Morgoth is BigBad for the overall story, each of the three "Great Tales" which form the most significant arcs of the mythology features a significant role from one of his three [[CoDragons chief lieutenants]]- Sauron in "Beren and Lúthien", Glaurung in "Children of Húrin", "Literature/TheChildrenOfHurin", and Gothmog in "The Fall of Gondolin".



* In ''TheSilmarillion'', the Dark Lord Morgoth imprisons Húrin and forces him to watch from afar his family be destroyed by Morgoth's curse. Among other misfortunes, Húrin's two surviving children unknowingly marry and conceive a child. Just how much did Morgoth show Húrin, exactly? It makes it even more amazing that Húrin never screamed once.

to:

* In ''TheSilmarillion'', ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'', the Dark Lord Morgoth ''[[Literature/TheChildrenOfHurin imprisons Húrin and forces him to watch from afar his family be destroyed by Morgoth's curse.curse]]''. Among other misfortunes, Húrin's two surviving children unknowingly marry and conceive a child. Just how much did Morgoth show Húrin, exactly? It makes it even more amazing that Húrin never screamed once.
13th Oct '14 7:52:14 AM MachRider1985
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Eru's flame of creation, the only thing capable of giving free will and true life would be pointless if living things didn't have evil to choose apart from good. Melkor's deepest desire, of having that flame, which eventually drove him to madness actually stems from his existence being complementary to it.

to:

** Eru's flame of creation, the only thing capable of giving free will and true life would be pointless if living things didn't have evil to choose apart from good. Melkor's deepest desire, of having that flame, which eventually drove him to madness actually stems from his existence being complementary to it.it.
** When Melkor tried to destroy the realm of Ulmo with cold he inadvertently created all beautiful and marvelous shapes of ice and snow, and a new enviroment for Yavanna's creatures. When he tried to evaporate the sea, he created clouds that carried water inland. When he destroyed the Lamps he forced the Valar to replace them with even more beautiful creations (the Two Trees), and when he destroyed them in turn, the Valar created the Sun and the Moon... whatever evil Melkor does, it eventually has also good results that enhance the World. It is impossible having those good things without the evil that causes them and the eternal struggle between good and evil, so even though evil is and must be fought, its existence is necessary in the great scheme.
----
2nd Oct '14 4:59:55 AM CaptainSilver
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Eru's flame of creation, the only thing capable of giving free will and true life would be pointless if living things didn't have evil to choose apart from good. Melkor's deepest desire, of having that flame, which eventually drove him to madness actually stems from his existence being complementary to it.
** The whole nature of the Gift of Men along with the above might actually move Eru to [[{{GodisEvil}} YHVH]] [[{{ShinMegamiTensei}} status. Apart from probably deliberately driving Melkor to become Morgoth, the Gift of Men i.e. free will might actually be meaningless if they're still supposed to abide by the way the world is meant to be as opposed to them choosing the way it should be.

to:

** Eru's flame of creation, the only thing capable of giving free will and true life would be pointless if living things didn't have evil to choose apart from good. Melkor's deepest desire, of having that flame, which eventually drove him to madness actually stems from his existence being complementary to it.
** The whole nature of the Gift of Men along with the above might actually move Eru to [[{{GodisEvil}} YHVH]] [[{{ShinMegamiTensei}} status. Apart from probably deliberately driving Melkor to become Morgoth, the Gift of Men i.e. free will might actually be meaningless if they're still supposed to abide by the way the world is meant to be as opposed to them choosing the way it should be.
it.
2nd Oct '14 4:59:01 AM CaptainSilver
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** Except that the whole destruction of Numenor and the changing of the world was described to be the work of Illuvatar and not the Valar.



** Eru's flame of creation, the only thing capable of giving free will and true life would be pointless if living things didn't have evil to choose apart from good. Melkor's deepest desire, of having that flame, which eventually drove him to madness actually stems from his existence being complementary to it.

to:

** Eru's flame of creation, the only thing capable of giving free will and true life would be pointless if living things didn't have evil to choose apart from good. Melkor's deepest desire, of having that flame, which eventually drove him to madness actually stems from his existence being complementary to it.it.
** The whole nature of the Gift of Men along with the above might actually move Eru to [[{{GodisEvil}} YHVH]] [[{{ShinMegamiTensei}} status. Apart from probably deliberately driving Melkor to become Morgoth, the Gift of Men i.e. free will might actually be meaningless if they're still supposed to abide by the way the world is meant to be as opposed to them choosing the way it should be.
19th Aug '14 6:31:24 AM akanesarumara
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** A good question, since Morgoth's claim that Húrin will see "through [his] eyes" can mean two things, either that he can see everything - for example, Húrin could see Morwen going to Thingol and soon leaving and Túrin trying to look for her a bit later while Finduilas was dragged away and killed as well - or that everything Húrin saw was distorted to give him more pain, focusing on the tragedy and loss and mistakes.
11th Aug '14 2:45:10 AM MrThorfan64
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** It's more likely that Sauron called his master by his original name because of the meaning. Melkor, meaning [[AwesomeMcCoolname He Who Arises In Might]] - awesome. Morgoth, meaning [[NamesToRunAwayFromReallyFast The Dark Enemy Of The Workd]] - not so much. It is as if some dark cultist would introduce Satan as "Lord of Lies" or something like that instead of "Lightbearer". Of course, some people fall for the more sinister name, but if you want to go for numbers, pick the one that sounds more appealing.

to:

** It's more likely that Sauron called his master by his original name because of the meaning. Melkor, meaning [[AwesomeMcCoolname He Who Arises In Might]] - awesome. Morgoth, meaning [[NamesToRunAwayFromReallyFast The Dark Enemy Of The Workd]] World]] - not so much. It is as if some dark cultist would introduce Satan as "Lord of Lies" or something like that instead of "Lightbearer". Of course, some people fall for the more sinister name, but if you want to go for numbers, pick the one that sounds more appealing.




to:

** Or Manwe wanted to know how the Valar should act against Numenor. Should they just destroy the armies or the whole island?
11th Aug '14 2:41:58 AM MrThorfan64
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Meta-example: ''The Silmarillion'' itself was compiled from Tolkien's notes, many of which were not entirely consistent with one another... just like different versions of real-world mythology.

to:

* Meta-example: ''The Silmarillion'' itself was compiled from Tolkien's notes, many of which were not entirely consistent with one another... just like different versions of real-world mythology.mythology.
** Or even real-world history.



** Finwë was called ''Finn'' in the early drafts. Wayland the smith is the son of the Finn king in the norse poem, and is called "Visi alfa" (elven lord). The noldor are master smiths, as wayland was.

to:

** Finwë was called ''Finn'' in the early drafts. Wayland the smith is the son of the Finn king in the norse Norse poem, and is called "Visi alfa" (elven lord). The noldor Noldor are master smiths, as wayland Wayland was.
This list shows the last 10 events of 34. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Fridge.TheSilmarillion