History Fridge / BatmanBeyondReturnOfTheJoker

14th Oct '17 8:54:06 AM Sharlee
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** Which is still pretty darn ugly, when you think about it. Presumably Woof the hyena, as an ordinary animal, would've been innocent of evil, [[ScavengingAnimalsAreScum however distasteful hyenas' habits might seem to humans]]. Had he been Uplifted by people with better motives, he could easily have been taught to be a ''good'', if exotic and mute, individual. But he was granted semi-human qualities by a bunch of teenage psychopaths...

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** Which is still pretty darn ugly, when you think about it. Presumably Woof the hyena, as an ordinary animal, would've been innocent of evil, [[ScavengingAnimalsAreScum [[ScavengersAreScum however distasteful lone hyenas' habits might seem to humans]]. Had he been Uplifted by people with better motives, he could easily have been taught to be a ''good'', if exotic and mute, individual. But he was granted semi-human qualities by a bunch of teenage psychopaths...
14th Oct '17 8:53:13 AM Sharlee
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** He might have come from the other direction--a hyena that was spliced toward being humanoid. (This was established as a possibility in a late episode.)

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** He might have come from the other direction--a [[UpliftedAnimal hyena that was spliced toward being humanoid.humanoid]]. (This was established as a possibility in a late episode.))
** Which is still pretty darn ugly, when you think about it. Presumably Woof the hyena, as an ordinary animal, would've been innocent of evil, [[ScavengingAnimalsAreScum however distasteful hyenas' habits might seem to humans]]. Had he been Uplifted by people with better motives, he could easily have been taught to be a ''good'', if exotic and mute, individual. But he was granted semi-human qualities by a bunch of teenage psychopaths...
10th Oct '17 5:32:54 PM nombretomado
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*** According to BruceTimm, Epilogue's revelation was partly motivated by the staff realizing Terry and Matt's black hair is genetically improbable given Mary is a redhead and Warren's hair is light brown - in turn opening the possibility that [[spoiler: Warren had suspected infidelity]].

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*** According to BruceTimm, Creator/BruceTimm, Epilogue's revelation was partly motivated by the staff realizing Terry and Matt's black hair is genetically improbable given Mary is a redhead and Warren's hair is light brown - in turn opening the possibility that [[spoiler: Warren had suspected infidelity]].
13th May '17 7:56:24 AM Nakuyabi
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** Bruce Wayne [[spoiler: successfully kept both versions of the Joker from divulging his secret about being Batman to anyone else, and is still living with his biological son there to take up his legacy by the time "Epilogue" rolls around]].
** Tim Drake [[spoiler: killed the Joker and managed to shake off his brainwashing - twice]].

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** Bruce Wayne [[spoiler: successfully kept both versions of the Joker from divulging his secret about being Batman to anyone else, and is still living at a ripe old age with his biological son there to take up his legacy by the time "Epilogue" rolls around]].
** Tim Drake [[spoiler: killed the Joker the first time and managed to shake off his brainwashing - twice]].both times]].



** Terry McGinness [[spoiler: heckled the Joker into a humiliating defeat, and killed him off for good with ''his own joy buzzer'']].
** Harley Quinn [[spoiler: got over her abusive relationship with the Joker, married, settled down, and now has granddaughters; and she's even won them back from him and got them under her disciplinary care again at the end. On a meta-level, she also stole his JokerImmunity away from him as she's still alive at the end and he isn't]].
** His Jokerz [[spoiler: are out from under his thumb, and probably reconsidering their career choices at the end, while his very final death avenges Bonk's untimely demise]].

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** Ace (the dog) [[spoiler: helped Terry against the Joker at a crucial moment, thereby avenging his injuries]].
** Terry McGinness [=McGinness=] [[spoiler: heckled the Joker into a one final humiliating defeat, got the very last laugh on him, and killed him off for good with ''his own joy buzzer'']].
** Harley Quinn [[spoiler: got over her abusive relationship with the Joker, married, married somebody else, settled down, and now has granddaughters; and she's even won them back from him and got them under her disciplinary care again at by the end. On a meta-level, she also stole his JokerImmunity away from him as she's still alive at the end and he isn't]].
** His Jokerz [[spoiler: are out from under his thumb, and probably reconsidering their career choices at the end, while his very final death avenges Bonk's untimely demise]].demise]].
** Amanda Waller [[spoiler: succeeded in her plan to engineer a biological son for Batman to carry on his legacy, and thereby indirectly avenged the telepathic girl Ace for the way Joker manipulated her by having someone there to put a stop to his second incarnation]].
** As noted in parts above, ''nobody'' ever voluntarily laughed at his jokes, only at ''him''; to the Joker, that was the very ''worst'' kind of humiliation he could possibly suffer, even worse than defeat and death. In the final analysis, he's an abject failure at ''everything''.
13th May '17 7:36:43 AM Nakuyabi
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* For all the hellish torments Joker brought to every life he touched, this movie amounts to a long-term HumiliationConga for him: ''everybody'' ultimately defeated, upstaged, or otherwise achieved some form of retribution on him, good and bad alike.

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* For all the hellish torments Joker brought to every life he touched, this movie amounts to a long-term HumiliationConga for him: ''everybody'' ultimately defeated, upstaged, or otherwise achieved some form of retribution on him, good and bad alike.alike:
** Bruce Wayne [[spoiler: successfully kept both versions of the Joker from divulging his secret about being Batman to anyone else, and is still living with his biological son there to take up his legacy by the time "Epilogue" rolls around]].
** Tim Drake [[spoiler: killed the Joker and managed to shake off his brainwashing - twice]].
** Barbara Gordon [[spoiler: finally broke up Harley Quinn's abusive relationship with the Joker for good and succeeded at making a career of fighting crime and helped Terry overcome the Joker long after Bruce made her hang up her Batgirl costume]].
** Terry McGinness [[spoiler: heckled the Joker into a humiliating defeat, and killed him off for good with ''his own joy buzzer'']].
** Harley Quinn [[spoiler: got over her abusive relationship with the Joker, married, settled down, and now has granddaughters; and she's even won them back from him and got them under her disciplinary care again at the end. On a meta-level, she also stole his JokerImmunity away from him as she's still alive at the end and he isn't]].
** His Jokerz [[spoiler: are out from under his thumb, and probably reconsidering their career choices at the end, while his very final death avenges Bonk's untimely demise]].
13th May '17 7:17:36 AM Nakuyabi
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*** One fan theory of why they were divorced was the fact that both sons looked nothing like the father.

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*** One fan theory of why they were divorced was the fact that both sons looked nothing like the father.



** He might have come from the other direction--a hyena that was spliced toward being humanoid.
* Bruce Wayne falls victim to Joker's toxin at one point in the film. Given his advanced age, there's no telling how much the excessive laughter has shortened his lifespan.

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** He might have come from the other direction--a hyena that was spliced toward being humanoid.
humanoid. (This was established as a possibility in a late episode.)
* Bruce Wayne falls victim to Joker's toxin at one point in the film. Given his advanced age, there's no telling how much the excessive laughter has shortened his lifespan.
lifespan (though he's still alive at the end of "Epilogue" thanks - most likely - to having the best futuristic medical care).



* The brilliance comes when tying in another Paul Dini work Mad Love. Mad Love's key factor is playing on the irony that Harley succeeds at everything the Joker fails at. In the climax of the movie, Terry mocks Joker by saying that his fixation to Batman was because he never could get him to laugh. In Mad Love, Harley gets him to laugh completely unintentionally and effortlessly.
** Another detail that ties in - at the end of the movie, it's revealed that [[spoiler:after the Joker was killed, Harley moved on and started a family, apparently abandoning her life of crime and being angry at the thought of her granddaughters becoming criminals]]. In Mad Love, we see that much like real life abusive couples, Harley is continuously lured back to crime and the Joker by his little PetTheDog moments towards her, which keep her from realizing what a horrible person he is (at the end of the episode, for example, she was cursing his name before seeing he sent her a flower). [[spoiler:It's likely that with the Joker dead, there was nothing to interrupt Harley's next doubts about him, leading to her rejecting his memory and ideals.]]

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* The brilliance comes when tying in another Paul Dini work Mad Love. Mad Love's work: ''Mad Love''. ''Mad Love'''s key factor is playing on the irony that Harley succeeds at everything the Joker fails at.to achieve. In the climax of the movie, Terry mocks Joker by saying that his fixation to Batman was because he never could get him to laugh. In Mad Love, Harley gets him to laugh completely unintentionally and effortlessly.
** Another detail that ties in - at the end of the movie, it's revealed that [[spoiler:after the Joker was killed, Harley moved on and started a family, apparently abandoning her life of crime and being angry at the thought of her granddaughters becoming criminals]]. In Mad Love, we see that much like real life abusive couples, Harley is continuously lured back to crime and the Joker by his little PetTheDog moments towards her, which keep her rationalizing everything else he does to keep from realizing what a horrible person he is (at the end of the adapted episode, for example, she was cursing she's mentally calling him out for all of his name worst traits before seeing he sent her a flower). flower and a get-well-soon card). [[spoiler:It's likely that with the Joker dead, there was nothing to interrupt Harley's next doubts about him, him the next time they arose, leading to her rejecting his memory and ideals.]]



** There's a problem with the whole Harley besting the Joker in Mad Love interpretation, though: she only succeeded because she followed one of the Joker's plans, a fact she admitted. The Joker had previously rejected it for not being funny, which he considers a requirement for a successful plan: just defeating Batman isn't enough, he must be funny while doing it. Even after the plan succeeded in catching Batman, it still wasn't funny, so the Joker still thought of it as a failure. The Joker had no reason to consider Harley to have succeeded.
*** Joker didn't know how to make the fish smile. Harley succeeds in making them appear to be smiling. Joker has never caught Batman in a death trap that he couldn't escape from. Harley did on her first solo try. Harley is able to devise a plan all on her own that is far more effective than anything the Joker has ever done. Joker would never consider Harley to have succeed but the readers definitely (probably even ''Batman'') would.

to:

** There's a problem with the whole Harley besting the Joker in Mad Love interpretation, though: she only succeeded because she followed one of the Joker's plans, a fact something she admitted. The Joker had previously rejected it for not being funny, which he considers a requirement for a successful plan: just defeating Batman isn't enough, he must be funny while doing it. Even after the plan succeeded in catching Batman, it still wasn't funny, so the Joker still thought of it as a failure. The Joker had no reason to consider Harley to have succeeded.
*** Joker didn't know how to make the fish smile. Harley succeeds in making them appear to be smiling. Joker has never caught Batman in a death trap that he couldn't escape from. Harley did on her first solo try. Harley is able to devise a plan all on her own that is far more effective than anything the Joker has ever done. Joker would never consider Harley to have succeed but the readers definitely (probably even ''Batman'') would.
succeeded.



*** Joker didn't know how to make the fish smile. Harley succeeds in making them appear to be smiling. Joker has never caught Batman in a death trap that he couldn't escape on his own. Harley did that on her first solo try. Harley is able to devise a plan all on her own that is far more effective at killing Batman than anything the Joker has ever done. Joker would never consider Harley to have succeeded, but the readers (and probably even ''Batman'') definitely would.



** This is especially notable when one considers Terry's snide comment about how the Joker might get a laugh if he dropped his pants or something of the like. In the ''Batman: The Animated Series'' episode "Make 'Em Laugh", he gets the biggest and only laugh out of Gotham as the Joker when he unintentionally drops his pants after being beaten by Batman.
*** But it was also shown in "Make 'Em Laugh" that the Joker ''is'' funny, at least to the citizens of Gotham, and the thing that keeps people from laughing at his jokes is the fact that he's recognized as one of the most dangerous criminals in the entire city. When he was disguised, he had the entire room in stitches. It was ''only'' when they realized he was the Joker that they didn't laugh. Although, for his second act, he revealed himself immediately, so that may not be the best gauge of his comedic talent.
*** But even then, that falls under the above list of "jokes made outside of his persona." For all we know, the Joker stole those lines from a basic comedian list. Which, again, underscores the point that the Joker himself is a good Supervillain...but an absolutely terrible comedian.
** The movie could be seen as a deconstruction of the character as a clown at all. As much as The Joker bills himself as the Clown Prince of Crime, he's not really a clown beyond his superficial gimmicks as see in the ''Batman: The Animated Series'' episode "To Be a Clown" where he impersonates a party clown: he can do some impressive "magic" tricks and slight of hand, but he never actually makes anyone laugh or find anything funny (beyond one clown-obsessed boy who is really more awed than anything). The clown thing is more a convenient theme than anything else, since despite not being ''funny'' the Joker is a competent showman in regards to getting and keeping attention and so would choose a theme to let him do that on some level. T
*** The classic clown tricks he uses as weapons, like the joybuzzer, flower, and so on, are only funny as clown tricks when ''acted'' properly, something the Joker doesn't do (he loves drama and terror too much to manage to get laughs), or with a partner who reacts, which the Joker does not have in his chosen partner of Batman. Thus showing how the Joker failed to even see how the items he was using were supposed to be thought of as funny in the first place.

to:

** This is especially notable when one considers Terry's snide comment about how the Joker might get a laugh if he dropped his pants or something of the like. sort. In the ''Batman: The Animated Series'' episode "Make 'Em Laugh", he gets the biggest and only laugh out of Gotham as the Joker when he unintentionally drops his pants after being beaten by Batman.
Batman beats him again.
*** But Yet it was also shown in "Make 'Em Laugh" that the Joker ''is'' funny, at least to the citizens of Gotham, and the thing that keeps people from laughing at his jokes is the fact that he's recognized as one of the most dangerous criminals in the entire city. When he was disguised, he had the entire room in stitches. It was ''only'' when they realized he was the Joker that they didn't laugh. Although, laugh; although for his second act, he revealed himself immediately, so that may not be the best gauge of his comedic talent.
*** But Yet even then, that falls under the above list of "jokes made outside of his persona." For all we know, the Joker stole those lines from a basic comedian list. Which, again, list; which again underscores the point that the Joker himself is a good Supervillain...super-villain... but an absolutely terrible comedian.
** The movie could be seen as a deconstruction of the character as a clown at all. As much as The Joker bills himself as the Clown Prince of Crime, he's not really a clown beyond his superficial gimmicks as see in the ''Batman: The Animated Series'' episode "To Be "Be a Clown" where he impersonates a party clown: he can do some impressive "magic" tricks and slight sleight of hand, but he never actually makes anyone laugh or find anything funny (beyond one clown-obsessed boy who is really more awed than anything). The clown thing is more a convenient theme gimmick than anything else, since despite not being ''funny'' the Joker is a competent showman in regards to getting and keeping attention and so would choose a theme to let him do that on some level. T
level.
*** The classic clown tricks he uses as weapons, like the joybuzzer, joy buzzer, flower, and so on, are only funny as clown tricks when ''acted'' properly, something the Joker doesn't do (he loves drama and terror too much to manage to get laughs), or with a partner who reacts, which the Joker does not have in his chosen partner of Batman. Thus Batman; thus showing how the Joker failed to even see to comprehend how the items he was using were supposed to be thought of as funny in the first place.



* During Joker's fight with Bruce, he misdirected Batman with his right hand while flicking the knife into his left. It's a very basic magic trick, and probably would never have worked if Batman wasn't so upset. It also symbolizes how what he did appeared to just be brainwashing Tim, but he was ''actually'' making a backup of himself.
** If you listen closely, he even makes a joke about it. "I/eye on the other hand..."

to:

* During Joker's fight with Bruce, he misdirected Batman with his right hand while flicking the knife into his left. It's a very basic magic trick, and probably would never have worked if Batman wasn't so upset. It also symbolizes how what he did appeared to be just be brainwashing Tim, but [[spoiler: he was ''actually'' making a backup of himself.
himself as well]].
** If you listen closely, he even makes a joke about it. "I/eye on the other hand...""
* For all the hellish torments Joker brought to every life he touched, this movie amounts to a long-term HumiliationConga for him: ''everybody'' ultimately defeated, upstaged, or otherwise achieved some form of retribution on him, good and bad alike.
16th Sep '16 12:19:57 PM MrDeath
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*** The coda also makes Harley's motivation somewhere between HarsherInHindsight, HeartwarmingInHindsight, and Fridge Brilliance/Horror all at once. Remember that her primary motive in "adopting" Tim to become JJ was that she wanted a family with "Mister J" [[spoiler: If the Deedee twins are her grandkids? Harley was likely ''pregnant with Joker's kid'' at the time of Joker's first death. Her reforming was likely EvilParentsWantGoodKids coming into play. Unfortunately, her granddaughters are unfortunately taking after Grandpa's worst tendencies.]]
15th Sep '16 1:57:22 PM Allronix
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Added DiffLines:

*** The coda also makes Harley's motivation somewhere between HarsherInHindsight, HeartwarmingInHindsight, and Fridge Brilliance/Horror all at once. Remember that her primary motive in "adopting" Tim to become JJ was that she wanted a family with "Mister J" [[spoiler: If the Deedee twins are her grandkids? Harley was likely ''pregnant with Joker's kid'' at the time of Joker's first death. Her reforming was likely EvilParentsWantGoodKids coming into play. Unfortunately, her granddaughters are unfortunately taking after Grandpa's worst tendencies.]]
31st May '16 10:37:07 AM GrecoRomanGuy
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Added DiffLines:

*** But even then, that falls under the above list of "jokes made outside of his persona." For all we know, the Joker stole those lines from a basic comedian list. Which, again, underscores the point that the Joker himself is a good Supervillain...but an absolutely terrible comedian.
31st May '16 8:43:10 AM GrecoRomanGuy
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*** Furthermore, Terry not only has a sense of humor, he doesn't have the same sense of storied "tradition" that the Joker holds towards the famed Batman-Joker rivalry: it's not that Terry doesn't ''understand'' the "rules" (ie. fighting dirty, attempting to bring the Joker in instead of letting him run off to plot the next stupidly complicated EvilPlan, etc.) that Joker thinks exist, it's that he ''doesn't give a shit.'' So he has no scruples about insulting his enemy, because he isn't really ''his'' enemy. He's Bruce Wayne's.

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*** Furthermore, Terry not only has a sense of humor, he doesn't have the same sense of storied "tradition" that the Joker holds towards the famed Batman-Joker rivalry: it's not that Terry doesn't ''understand'' the "rules" (ie. no fighting dirty, no attempting to bring the Joker in instead of letting him run off to plot the next stupidly complicated EvilPlan, etc.) that Joker thinks exist, it's that he ''doesn't give a shit.'' So he has no scruples about insulting his enemy, because he isn't really ''his'' enemy. He's Bruce Wayne's.
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