History FlameWar / Music

27th Jun '16 10:05:52 AM longWriter
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*** The backlash against this by {{Yaoi Fangirl}}s can be just as heated and have so many bad UnfortunateImplications and improper behavior attached (e.g. claiming EveryoneIsBi, showing FanFic to artists, white knighting, etc.) so much that the reaction among actual LGBTQ artists/fans/groupies can be StopBeingStereotypical and StopHelpingMe along with accusations of being a CategoryTraitor being thrown back and forth by ''everyone'' in that [[{{Understatement}} little debate.]]

to:

*** The backlash against this by {{Yaoi Fangirl}}s can be just as heated and have so many bad UnfortunateImplications and improper behavior attached (e.g. claiming EveryoneIsBi, showing FanFic to artists, white knighting, etc.) so much that the reaction among actual LGBTQ artists/fans/groupies can be StopBeingStereotypical and StopHelpingMe "[[UnwantedAssistance stop helping me]]" along with accusations of being a CategoryTraitor being thrown back and forth by ''everyone'' in that [[{{Understatement}} little debate.]]
7th Jun '16 10:28:09 PM gewunomox
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* Music/GreenDay: Either anything after ''Dookie'' is bad, or only their new stuff is good, or anyone who likes ''Music/AmericanIdiot'' is a noob and a sell-out, or anyone who likes ''Music/TwentyOneFirstCenturyBreakdown'' is also a noob and a sell-out, or if you like the band period, you're a fag who doesn't listen to "real" rock music.

to:

* Music/GreenDay: Either anything after ''Dookie'' is bad, or only their new stuff is good, or anyone who likes ''Music/AmericanIdiot'' is a noob and a sell-out, or anyone who likes ''Music/TwentyOneFirstCenturyBreakdown'' ''Music/TwentyFirstCenturyBreakdown'' is also a noob and a sell-out, or if you like the band period, you're a fag who doesn't listen to "real" rock music.
7th Jun '16 10:27:09 PM gewunomox
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* Music/GreenDay: Either anything after ''Dookie'' is bad, or only their new stuff is good, or anyone who likes ''Music/AmericanIdiot'' is a noob and a sell-out, or anyone who likes ''Music/21stCenturyBreakdown'' is also a noob and a sell-out, or if you like the band period, you're a fag who doesn't listen to "real" rock music.

to:

* Music/GreenDay: Either anything after ''Dookie'' is bad, or only their new stuff is good, or anyone who likes ''Music/AmericanIdiot'' is a noob and a sell-out, or anyone who likes ''Music/21stCenturyBreakdown'' ''Music/TwentyOneFirstCenturyBreakdown'' is also a noob and a sell-out, or if you like the band period, you're a fag who doesn't listen to "real" rock music.



* MyChemicalRomance. Oh sweet, sweet God. To name just a few: Everything after ''Three Cheers For Sweet Revenge'' is lame and not rock music. No it isn't, ''The Black Parade'' is a fantastic album, but ''Danger Days'' is popularist trash. No it isn't, I haven't even bothered to listen to the first three albums, but ''Danger Days'' is amazing. MCR write rock music. MCR DO NOT WRITE REAL ROCK MUSIC, they are emos. MCR hate the emo label, they even say so themselves, they're really goths. MCR aren't goths, they're stupid posers. MCR aren't anything, they just write what they like when the mood takes them! MCR are a Goddamn suicide cult! MCR fanfiction is hot when it depicts everyone having sex all the time. MCR fanfiction is weird and creepy. MCR and everything about them sucks ass! MCR is the best band ever, ever, ever, period. And the list goes on.

to:

* MyChemicalRomance.Music/MyChemicalRomance. Oh sweet, sweet God. To name just a few: Everything after ''Three Cheers For Sweet Revenge'' is lame and not rock music. No it isn't, ''The Black Parade'' is a fantastic album, but ''Danger Days'' is popularist trash. No it isn't, I haven't even bothered to listen to the first three albums, but ''Danger Days'' is amazing. MCR write rock music. MCR DO NOT WRITE REAL ROCK MUSIC, they are emos. MCR hate the emo label, they even say so themselves, they're really goths. MCR aren't goths, they're stupid posers. MCR aren't anything, they just write what they like when the mood takes them! MCR are a Goddamn suicide cult! MCR fanfiction is hot when it depicts everyone having sex all the time. MCR fanfiction is weird and creepy. MCR and everything about them sucks ass! MCR is the best band ever, ever, ever, period. And the list goes on.
7th Jun '16 10:26:00 PM gewunomox
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* Music/GreenDay: Either anything after ''Dookie'' is bad, or only their new stuff is good, or anyone who likes ''AmericanIdiot'' is a noob and a sell-out, or anyone who likes ''21stCenturyBreakdown'' is also a noob and a sell-out, or if you like the band period, you're a fag who doesn't listen to "real" rock music.

to:

* Music/GreenDay: Either anything after ''Dookie'' is bad, or only their new stuff is good, or anyone who likes ''AmericanIdiot'' ''Music/AmericanIdiot'' is a noob and a sell-out, or anyone who likes ''21stCenturyBreakdown'' ''Music/21stCenturyBreakdown'' is also a noob and a sell-out, or if you like the band period, you're a fag who doesn't listen to "real" rock music.
2nd May '16 3:19:02 PM TheOneWhoTropes
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*** The backlash against this by {{Yaoi Fangirl}}s can be just as heated and have so many bad UnfortunateImplications and improper behavior attached (e.g. claiming EveryoneIsBi, showing FanFic to artists, WhiteKnighting, etc.) so much that the reaction among actual LGBTQ artists/fans/groupies can be StopBeingStereotypical and StopHelpingMe along with accusations of being a CategoryTraitor being thrown back and forth by ''everyone'' in that [[{{Understatement}} little debate.]]

to:

*** The backlash against this by {{Yaoi Fangirl}}s can be just as heated and have so many bad UnfortunateImplications and improper behavior attached (e.g. claiming EveryoneIsBi, showing FanFic to artists, WhiteKnighting, white knighting, etc.) so much that the reaction among actual LGBTQ artists/fans/groupies can be StopBeingStereotypical and StopHelpingMe along with accusations of being a CategoryTraitor being thrown back and forth by ''everyone'' in that [[{{Understatement}} little debate.]]
9th Dec '15 6:41:06 AM Berrenta
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*** Hiroshi Matsumoto in general is a living BerserkButton. While he has his defenders, his obsession with turning hide into a CashCowFranchise has alienated ''much'' of the hide fandom from openly expressing support or admiration for him at the very least and has turned a fairly large portion of it (especially the English-speaking fandom) directly against him. It doesn't help his case that anyone who looks into hide's death and surrounding events at all will find Hiroshi to have at least been a negligent PointyHairedBoss of a manager (and some even allege him to have been the HeteronormativeCrusader who let hide's problems consume him on purpose since that was easier than dealing with him/managing his reputation somehow alive), and that he became most widely known for engaging in protracted and pointless legal battles over hide's image, while [[{{hypocrite}} stealing fan art to make it official LEMONED products]], with the lawsuits only stopping when he filed a FrivolousLawsuit against Yoshiki Hayashi for using hide's image in X Japan, the ''band that had made hide famous,'' and Yoshiki fought back rather than paid up. While not everyone hates him, ''any'' of the above can lead to a FlameWar, although one usually closer to an InternetCounterattack against him, and he arguably sports the one of the biggest {{Hatedom}}s of ''anyone'' in Visual Kei, to the extent that there's active campaigns to defund the CashCowFranchise by fans sick of the way he's managed hide's estate.

to:

*** Hiroshi Matsumoto in general is a living BerserkButton. While he has his defenders, his obsession with turning hide into a CashCowFranchise has alienated ''much'' of the hide fandom from openly expressing support or admiration for him at the very least and has turned a fairly large portion of it (especially the English-speaking fandom) directly against him. It doesn't help his case that anyone who looks into hide's death and surrounding events at all will find Hiroshi to have at least been a negligent PointyHairedBoss of a manager (and some even allege him to have been the HeteronormativeCrusader who let hide's problems consume him on purpose since that was easier than dealing with him/managing his reputation somehow alive), and that he became most widely known for engaging in protracted and pointless legal battles over hide's image, while [[{{hypocrite}} stealing fan art to make it official LEMONED products]], with the lawsuits only stopping when he filed a FrivolousLawsuit against Yoshiki Hayashi for using hide's image in X Japan, the ''band that had made hide famous,'' and Yoshiki fought back rather than paid up. While not everyone hates him, ''any'' of the above can lead to a FlameWar, although one usually closer to an InternetCounterattack a counterattack against him, and he arguably sports the one of the biggest {{Hatedom}}s of ''anyone'' in Visual Kei, to the extent that there's active campaigns to defund the CashCowFranchise by fans sick of the way he's managed hide's estate.
2nd Dec '15 9:54:00 AM Berrenta
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* [[TwoWordsObviousTrope One band:]] LinkinPark. To wit, [[TheyChangedItNowItSucks "Old Sound vs. New Sound"]], [[HateDumb "Manufactured Boy Band]] vs. [[FanDumb Badass Nu-Metal"]], [[AlternativeRap "Fort Minor]] vs. [[PostGrunge Dead by Sunrise"]], [[FandomRivalry "Linkin Park vs. Deftones", "Linkin Park vs. Limp Bizkit"]], [[ItsPopularNowItSucks "Singles vs. B-Sides"]], etc.
* GreenDay: Either anything after ''Dookie'' is bad, or only their new stuff is good, or anyone who likes ''AmericanIdiot'' is a noob and a sell-out, or anyone who likes ''21stCenturyBreakdown'' is also a noob and a sell-out, or if you like the band period, you're a fag who doesn't listen to "real" rock music.

to:

* [[TwoWordsObviousTrope One band:]] LinkinPark.Music/LinkinPark. To wit, [[TheyChangedItNowItSucks "Old Sound vs. New Sound"]], [[HateDumb "Manufactured Boy Band]] vs. [[FanDumb Badass Nu-Metal"]], [[AlternativeRap "Fort Minor]] vs. [[PostGrunge Dead by Sunrise"]], [[FandomRivalry "Linkin Park vs. Deftones", "Linkin Park vs. Limp Bizkit"]], [[ItsPopularNowItSucks "Singles vs. B-Sides"]], etc.
* GreenDay: Music/GreenDay: Either anything after ''Dookie'' is bad, or only their new stuff is good, or anyone who likes ''AmericanIdiot'' is a noob and a sell-out, or anyone who likes ''21stCenturyBreakdown'' is also a noob and a sell-out, or if you like the band period, you're a fag who doesn't listen to "real" rock music.
25th Jul '15 4:42:33 PM nombretomado
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* Some people think MichaelJackson was the greatest pop star the world had ever known, and a true humanitarian to boot. Others thought he was an overly-commercialized pop singer... and that he was a pedophile. How could any of this lead to a flame war?

to:

* Some people think MichaelJackson Music/MichaelJackson was the greatest pop star the world had ever known, and a true humanitarian to boot. Others thought he was an overly-commercialized pop singer... and that he was a pedophile. How could any of this lead to a flame war?
19th Jul '15 10:23:38 AM spirasen
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* Name any genre of music and associated subculture, any, and flame wars will ignite. Particularly volatile topics are: what is acceptable as heavy metal, which school of blackmetal is true/kvlt and how to 'define' goth.

to:

* Name any genre of music and associated subculture, any, and flame wars will ignite. Particularly volatile topics are: what What is acceptable as heavy metal, HeavyMetal, which school of blackmetal BlackMetal is true/kvlt and how to 'define' goth.{{Goth}}.



** Most of the most well-known figures of VisualKei and anything relating to them or their acts. Music/YoshikiHayashi, DynamiteTommy, and {{Gackt}} all have many associated flamewars, for example - and ''gods help you'' if you get into the meta-wars of who among them is the best artist in VisualKei. Yoshiki vs Gackt, specifically, will lead to outraged fans of both screaming at each other, spreading rumors, and a possible literal dick-measuring contest. Yoshiki vs. Dynamite Tommy actually once led to a ''literal'' FlameWar that burned down a bar. {{Gackt}} vs Mana is another big one here, where both sides in this one often think the other is an [[ItsAllAboutMe egotistical]] band-destroying {{Jerkass}}.
*** {{Gackt}}'s tabloid rumors have become a FlameWar industry almost. Dears arrive to insist the scandal is entirely false. While anti-fans will insist the story is true despite any evidence. The [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil scandal involving rape charges]] caused a huge flame war that eventually died out win he was found innocent of all charges.
*** ''Beneath The Skin.'' Who sings better, Gackt or Toshi? Is not including an uncredited vocalist "stealing his song?" How much work does a remix have to undergo to be considered a new song anyway? This song, if mentioned around a place where there are fanatical X Japan fans/Yoshiki fans and fanatical Gackt fans, is the FlameWar equivalent of ''thermite.''
** Music/DirEnGrey. ANYTHING related to DirEnGrey. Most Visual Kei bands (or ex- Visual Kei bands) have a specific set of BerserkButton that, as long as you don't touch them for any reason, you will be relatively unscathed. DirEnGrey has nearly ''everything'' as a potential BerserkButton for someone somewhere in the fandom. Individual fans aren't necessarily a problem, but almost every community for the band is a FlameWar minefield with some people who will see ''anything'' as [[ItsPersonal personally enraging]] enough to literally cyberstalk you for ''years,'' rain down the most venomous verbal abuse possible, and even go out of their way to attack other fans in RealLife at shows.
*** As of 2015, Dir en grey fandom has slightly become more peaceful, with many of the fans more prone to Flame War becoming fans of Nocturnal Bloodlust and making its fandom a similar battleground, or leaving jrock entirely for Kpop.
** The Tokyo Damage hit piece slamming VisualKei as a dead genre of sellouts and sexually confused people, citing one burnt-out person's experience as a producer, and accusing all VisualKei artists of being {{yakuza}} criminals. The piece was actually removed from Tokyo Damage itself when it failed a fact check (for, among other reasons, the lack of more than one source on its allegations), several of the parties named (including Music/YoshikiHayashi and DynamiteTommy) allegedly threatened libel suits, and the homophobic and transphobic nature of the snark began to be repeatedly called out, but it was uploaded elsewhere and took on a life of its own. Those who post the piece to troll (or who just find it and are unaware of its history) will insist that it is the utter, hard truth of the reality of VisualKei, and will spread [[ConspiracyTheory conspiracy theories]] that the removal of the piece was due to the Yakuza (and not due to [[OccamsRazor that it was a factually inaccurate, libelous, and offensive rant]]), which draws the expected reaction from the insulted parties and their fans. The ''real'' fireworks happen when it gets posted somewhere containing ''active indies VisualKei artists'' who actually do read English well enough to understand the English-only article.

to:

** Most of the most well-known figures of VisualKei and anything relating to them or their acts. Music/YoshikiHayashi, DynamiteTommy, Music/DynamiteTommy, and {{Gackt}} Music/{{Gackt}} all have many associated flamewars, flame wars, for example - -- and ''gods help you'' if you get into the meta-wars of who among them is the best artist in VisualKei. Yoshiki vs vs. Gackt, specifically, will lead to outraged fans of both screaming at each other, spreading rumors, and a possible literal dick-measuring contest. Yoshiki vs. Dynamite Tommy actually once led to a ''literal'' FlameWar that burned down a bar. {{Gackt}} vs Gackt vs. Mana is another big one here, where both sides in this one often think the other is an [[ItsAllAboutMe egotistical]] band-destroying {{Jerkass}}.
*** {{Gackt}}'s Gackt's tabloid rumors have become a FlameWar industry almost. Dears arrive to insist the scandal is entirely false. While anti-fans will insist the story is true despite any evidence. The [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil scandal involving rape charges]] caused a huge flame war that eventually died out win he was found innocent of all charges.
*** ''Beneath The Skin.'' Who sings better, Gackt or Toshi? Is not including an uncredited vocalist "stealing his song?" How much work does a remix have to undergo to be considered a new song anyway? This song, if mentioned around a place where there are fanatical X Japan Music/XJapan fans/Yoshiki fans and fanatical Gackt fans, is the FlameWar equivalent of ''thermite.''
** Music/DirEnGrey. ANYTHING related to DirEnGrey. Dir en grey. Most Visual Kei bands (or ex- Visual ex-Visual Kei bands) have a specific set of BerserkButton that, as long as you don't touch them for any reason, you will be relatively unscathed. DirEnGrey Dir en grey has nearly ''everything'' as a potential BerserkButton for someone somewhere in the fandom. Individual fans aren't necessarily a problem, but almost every community for the band is a FlameWar minefield with some people who will see ''anything'' as [[ItsPersonal personally enraging]] enough to literally cyberstalk you for ''years,'' rain down the most venomous verbal abuse possible, and even go out of their way to attack other fans in RealLife at shows.
*** As of 2015, Dir en grey fandom has slightly become more peaceful, with many of the fans more prone to Flame War becoming fans of Nocturnal Bloodlust and making its fandom a similar battleground, or leaving jrock Jrock entirely for Kpop.
** The Tokyo Damage hit piece slamming VisualKei Visual Kei as a dead genre of sellouts and sexually confused people, citing one burnt-out person's experience as a producer, and accusing all VisualKei Visual Kei artists of being {{yakuza}} criminals. The piece was actually removed from Tokyo Damage itself when it failed a fact check (for, among other reasons, the lack of more than one source on its allegations), several of the parties named (including Music/YoshikiHayashi Yoshiki Hayashi and DynamiteTommy) Dynamite Tommy) allegedly threatened libel suits, and the homophobic and transphobic nature of the snark began to be repeatedly called out, but it was uploaded elsewhere and took on a life of its own. Those who post the piece to troll (or who just find it and are unaware of its history) will insist that it is the utter, hard truth of the reality of VisualKei, Visual Kei, and will spread [[ConspiracyTheory conspiracy theories]] that the removal of the piece was due to the Yakuza (and not due to [[OccamsRazor that it was a factually inaccurate, libelous, and offensive rant]]), which draws the expected reaction from the insulted parties and their fans. The ''real'' fireworks happen when it gets posted somewhere containing ''active indies VisualKei Visual Kei artists'' who actually do read English well enough to understand the English-only article. article.



** Any discussion of bandslash or sexuality of artists at all. And yes, this applies ''even if'' the artist(s) are out and proud as gay or bisexual - [[UnfortunateImplications somehow]] it is seen that out GLBTQ artists need more [[GetBackInTheCloset "privacy"]] and [[HideYourLesbians "discretion"]] in discussion than heterosexual ones, and that GLBTQ groupies or fanboys/fangirls are [[UnfortunateImplications somehow more offensive or "disrespectful"]] to the artist for expressing feelings that would be ''at worst'' giggled at if expressed by cisgendered heterosexuals. Even ''if'' the artist and other artist or groupie/fan's orientations are compatible.
*** And a very, very nasty meta-flamewar can be started by mentioning those exact applications of the DoubleStandard for expressions of heterosexual desire versus expressions of same-sex desire, and/or by mentioning that perhaps some people involved in VisualKei may not be fully and entirely cisgender off the stage.
*** The backlash against this by YaoiFangirls can be just as heated and have so many bad UnfortunateImplications and improper behavior attached (e.g. claiming EveryoneIsBi, showing FanFic to artists, WhiteKnighting, etc) so much that the reaction among actual GLBTQ artists/fans/groupies can be StopBeingStereotypical and StopHelpingMe along with accusations of being a CategoryTraitor being thrown back and forth by ''everyone'' in that [[{{Understatement}} little debate.]]
** The circumstances of the death of pretty much any VisualKei artist that has died. [[Music/HidetoMatsumoto hide]], [[Music/{{Versailles}} Jasmine You]], [[{{Music/Kaggra}} Isshi]], and [[Music/TaijiSawada Taiji]] especially attract this as in their deaths were mysterious and/or suspicious, and if people who think they were murdered/there was negligence around their deaths end up in the same place as people who are insistent on their deaths being uncomplicated suicides, there will be FlameWar.
** Visual Shock/Veteran Kei OR Black Kote Kei or Eroguro Kei vs. Oshare Kei. The former three genres are mostly made up of varying forms of HardRock and HeavyMetal to, in the case of Eroguro Kei, extreme metal and black metal. Oshare is pop, pop-punk, with some lighter EDM. The metalheads tend to hate the poppy, light, commercial-friendly sound of Oshare and the "cuteness" of the style, and loathe it for invading a style founded in hard rock and heavy metal, where the Oshare fans tend to see the metalheads as holding onto the past and negative/dark/not cute and cool, and often think VisualKei should be more "cool kawaii Japan."
*** This one can go UpToEleven when the Oshare band is obviously unskilled/untalented and yet has a ton of expensive costuming/gear/production/etcetera, because then it becomes class warfare and jealousy as well - since as of TheNewTens most of the HR/HM leaning bands and artists (aside from the obvious exceptions like Music/XJapan and Music/DirEnGrey) are nowhere near rich. The reaction of people who can barely afford their gear or paying for a venue to a band that can barely play despite their top of the line gear getting top billing and tons of press is... often [[{{Understatement}} slightly angry.]]
** In a similar but worse vein, KoreanPop versus VisualKei. This one can draw a wide variety of flames ranging the entire SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism - on the more "idealistic" side (or the more sympathetic one) you have the same situation as the metal subgenres versus Oshare - a simple conflict over genre. On the more cynical side, you have UnfortunateImplications gone wild, with Japanese, other Japanese, Westerners, and Koreans all flinging ''extreme'' racist abuse at each other and denouncing whatever side they hate not out of genre distaste but out of overt racism and MisplacedNationalism.
** Hiroshi Matsumoto giving the rights to cover [[HidetoMatsumoto hide]]'s image song ''Pink Spider'' to Music/KodaKumi produced a short FlameWar mostly directed at him and/or Koda Kumi for the result being generally recognized as crappy. It also slowed the crossover between Visual Kei and pop to some degree.
*** Hiroshi Matsumoto in general is a living BerserkButton. While he has his defenders, his obsession with turning hide into a CashCowFranchise has alienated ''much'' of the hide fandom from openly expressing support or admiration for him at the very least and has turned a fairly large portion of it (especially the English-speaking fandom) directly against him. It doesn't help his case that anyone who looks into hide's death and surrounding events at all will find Hiroshi to have at least been a negligent PointyHairedBoss of a manager (and some even allege him to have been the HeteronormativeCrusader who let hide's problems consume him on purpose since that was easier than dealing with him/managing his reputation somehow alive), and that he became most widely known for engaging in protracted and pointless legal battles over hide's image, while [[{{hypocrite}} stealing fan art to make it official LEMONED products]], with the lawsuits only stopping when he filed a FrivolousLawsuit against Music/YoshikiHayashi for using hide's image in Music/XJapan, the ''band that had made hide famous,'' and Yoshiki fought back rather than paid up. While not everyone hates him, ''any'' of the above can lead to a FlameWar, although one usually closer to an InternetCounterattack against him, and he arguably sports the one of the biggest {{Hatedom}}s of ''anyone'' in VisualKei, to the extent that there's active campaigns to defund the CashCowFranchise by fans sick of the way he's managed hide's estate.
* Old school rap [[TheEighties 80s]] and [[TheNineties 90s]] vs. The new stuff. The discussion starts off civil enough, then everything goes to hell. Exemplified by fans of the new stuff calling the other group a bunch of old out of touch whiners with a NostalgiaFilter, and the former calling the latter group a bunch of white kids pretending to be black over the internet, or a bunch of suburban/dumb girls/uncle toms etc who like popcorn GlamRap cause they can't hack real serious HipHop. It has gotten real personal in some cases, even outside the internet.
** Don't forget East Coast vs. West Coast. Or more cynically New York vs. everyone else that isn't New York. New Jersey might be an exception..maybe.
** Or rap vs. other genres of music in general.
* There's also those who judge artists solely on [[QualityByPopularVote "relevance"]] rather than talent and credentials. This applies to music ingeneral as ewll.This also further divides fans.
* Whether or not SouljaBoy is real HipHop...So many poor souls.

to:

** Any discussion of bandslash band slash or sexuality of artists at all. And yes, this applies ''even if'' the artist(s) are out and proud as gay or bisexual - -- [[UnfortunateImplications somehow]] it is seen that out GLBTQ LGBTQ artists need more [[GetBackInTheCloset "privacy"]] and [[HideYourLesbians "discretion"]] in discussion than heterosexual ones, and that GLBTQ LGBTQ groupies or fanboys/fangirls are [[UnfortunateImplications somehow more offensive or "disrespectful"]] to the artist for expressing feelings that would be ''at worst'' giggled at if expressed by cisgendered heterosexuals. Even ''if'' the artist and other artist or groupie/fan's orientations are compatible.
compatible.
*** And a very, very nasty meta-flamewar can be started by mentioning those exact applications of the DoubleStandard for expressions of heterosexual desire versus expressions of same-sex desire, and/or by mentioning that perhaps some people involved in VisualKei Visual Kei may not be fully and entirely cisgender off the stage.
*** The backlash against this by YaoiFangirls {{Yaoi Fangirl}}s can be just as heated and have so many bad UnfortunateImplications and improper behavior attached (e.g. claiming EveryoneIsBi, showing FanFic to artists, WhiteKnighting, etc) etc.) so much that the reaction among actual GLBTQ LGBTQ artists/fans/groupies can be StopBeingStereotypical and StopHelpingMe along with accusations of being a CategoryTraitor being thrown back and forth by ''everyone'' in that [[{{Understatement}} little debate.]]
** The circumstances of the death of pretty much any VisualKei Visual Kei artist that has died. [[Music/HidetoMatsumoto hide]], [[Music/{{Versailles}} Jasmine You]], [[{{Music/Kaggra}} Isshi]], and [[Music/TaijiSawada Taiji]] especially attract this as in their deaths were mysterious and/or suspicious, and if people who think they were murdered/there was negligence around their deaths end up in the same place as people who are insistent on their deaths being uncomplicated suicides, there will be FlameWar.
** Visual Shock/Veteran Kei OR Black Kote Kei or Eroguro Kei vs. Oshare Kei. The former three genres are mostly made up of varying forms of HardRock and HeavyMetal to, in the case of Eroguro Kei, extreme metal and black metal. Oshare is pop, pop-punk, with some lighter EDM. The metalheads tend to hate the poppy, light, commercial-friendly sound of Oshare and the "cuteness" of the style, and loathe it for invading a style founded in hard rock and heavy metal, where the Oshare fans tend to see the metalheads as holding onto the past and negative/dark/not cute and cool, and often think VisualKei Visual Kei should be more "cool kawaii Japan.UsefulNotes/{{Japan}}."
*** This one can go UpToEleven when the Oshare band is obviously unskilled/untalented and yet has a ton of expensive costuming/gear/production/etcetera, because then it becomes class warfare and jealousy as well - -- since as of TheNewTens most of the HR/HM leaning bands and artists (aside from the obvious exceptions like Music/XJapan X Japan and Music/DirEnGrey) Dir en grey) are nowhere near rich. The reaction of people who can barely afford their gear or paying for a venue to a band that can barely play despite their top of the line gear getting top billing and tons of press is... often [[{{Understatement}} slightly angry.]]
angry]].
** In a similar but worse vein, KoreanPop versus VisualKei. Visual Kei. This one can draw a wide variety of flames ranging the entire SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism - -- on the more "idealistic" side (or the more sympathetic one) you have the same situation as the metal subgenres versus Oshare - -- a simple conflict over genre. On the more cynical side, you have UnfortunateImplications gone wild, with Japanese, other Japanese, Westerners, and Koreans all flinging ''extreme'' racist abuse at each other and denouncing whatever side they hate not out of genre distaste but out of overt racism and MisplacedNationalism.
** Hiroshi Matsumoto giving the rights to cover [[HidetoMatsumoto hide]]'s hide's image song ''Pink Spider'' to Music/KodaKumi produced a short FlameWar mostly directed at him and/or Koda Kumi for the result being generally recognized as crappy. It also slowed the crossover between Visual Kei and pop to some degree.
degree.
*** Hiroshi Matsumoto in general is a living BerserkButton. While he has his defenders, his obsession with turning hide into a CashCowFranchise has alienated ''much'' of the hide fandom from openly expressing support or admiration for him at the very least and has turned a fairly large portion of it (especially the English-speaking fandom) directly against him. It doesn't help his case that anyone who looks into hide's death and surrounding events at all will find Hiroshi to have at least been a negligent PointyHairedBoss of a manager (and some even allege him to have been the HeteronormativeCrusader who let hide's problems consume him on purpose since that was easier than dealing with him/managing his reputation somehow alive), and that he became most widely known for engaging in protracted and pointless legal battles over hide's image, while [[{{hypocrite}} stealing fan art to make it official LEMONED products]], with the lawsuits only stopping when he filed a FrivolousLawsuit against Music/YoshikiHayashi Yoshiki Hayashi for using hide's image in Music/XJapan, X Japan, the ''band that had made hide famous,'' and Yoshiki fought back rather than paid up. While not everyone hates him, ''any'' of the above can lead to a FlameWar, although one usually closer to an InternetCounterattack against him, and he arguably sports the one of the biggest {{Hatedom}}s of ''anyone'' in VisualKei, Visual Kei, to the extent that there's active campaigns to defund the CashCowFranchise by fans sick of the way he's managed hide's estate.
* Old school rap [[TheEighties 80s]] '80s]] and [[TheNineties 90s]] '90s]] vs. The new stuff. The discussion starts off civil enough, then everything goes to hell. Exemplified by fans of the new stuff calling the other group a bunch of old out of touch whiners with a NostalgiaFilter, and the former calling the latter group a bunch of white kids pretending to be black over the internet, or a bunch of suburban/dumb girls/uncle toms etc etc. who like popcorn GlamRap cause they can't hack real serious HipHop. It has gotten real personal in some cases, even outside the internet.
** Don't forget East Coast vs. West Coast. Or more cynically New York vs. everyone else that isn't New York. New Jersey might be an exception..maybe.
exception... Maybe.
** Or rap vs. other genres of music in general.
general.
* There's also those who judge artists solely on [[QualityByPopularVote "relevance"]] rather than talent and credentials. This applies to music ingeneral in general as ewll.well. This also further divides fans.
fans.
* Whether or not SouljaBoy Music/SouljaBoy is real HipHop...HipHop... So many poor souls.



** There's also what inevitably happens if a male idol gets a girlfriend - one side will flame her, send her hate letters/death threats and hurl abuse at the male idol. The other side will say "Hey, why not let them be happy?" The flamers will then retort "Well, you're OBVIOUSLY not a TRUE FAN", and things will degenerate from there.

to:

** There's also what inevitably happens if a male idol gets a girlfriend - -- one side will flame her, send her hate letters/death threats and hurl abuse at the male idol. The other side will say "Hey, why not let them be happy?" The flamers will then retort "Well, you're OBVIOUSLY not a TRUE FAN", and things will degenerate from there.



* My favorite violinist vs. yours. ''Period!'' Go to any Youtube video on any virtuoso and just see the comments unfold below.

to:

* My favorite violinist vs. yours. ''Period!'' Go to any Youtube YouTube video on any virtuoso and just see the comments unfold below.



* In the {{Vocaloid}} fandom Kagamine fans are known for really long arguments over whether the two are twins, lovers, [[BrotherSisterIncest both]], or each other's reflection in the mirror.

to:

* In the {{Vocaloid}} Music/{{Vocaloid}} fandom Kagamine fans are known for really long arguments over whether the two are twins, lovers, [[BrotherSisterIncest both]], or each other's reflection in the mirror.



* ''Jazz.'' The entire fanbase [[BrokenBase more or less split wide open]] in the 80s, with one side embracing the more commercialized aspects of jazz-rock fusion and smooth jazz introduced in the 70s, while the purists vehemently hating them. These days, smooth jazz generates ire from [[DeadHorseGenre either side of the fence]], but the purist debate on what jazz is supposed to be rages on.
** Jazz split many times before the 80s. Bebop was controversial when it first came out, and Bossa Nova made jazz safe again for the mainstream. Then you have free jazz, which still has its detractors. And jazz fusion...
* Indian music - Tradition vs. Innovation. Religious vs. Non-religious themes. "Authentic Performance" of ragas and compositions. Commercialization. Raise any of these and you're just asking for it.

to:

* ''Jazz.'' {{Jazz}}. The entire fanbase [[BrokenBase more or less split wide open]] in the 80s, '80s, with one side embracing the more commercialized aspects of jazz-rock fusion and smooth jazz introduced in the 70s, '70s, while the purists vehemently hating them. These days, smooth jazz generates ire from [[DeadHorseGenre either side of the fence]], but the purist debate on what jazz is supposed to be rages on.
** Jazz split many times before the 80s.'80s. Bebop was controversial when it first came out, and Bossa Nova made jazz safe again for the mainstream. Then you have free jazz, which still has its detractors. And jazz fusion...
* Indian music - music: Tradition vs. Innovation. Religious vs. Non-religious themes. "Authentic Performance" of ragas and compositions. Commercialization. Raise any of these and you're just asking for it.



** Tradition vs Innovation is staple of any form of classical music.

to:

** Tradition vs vs. Innovation is staple of any form of classical music.ClassicalMusic.
30th Apr '15 6:18:39 PM RevolutionStone
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Added DiffLines:

*** As of 2015, Dir en grey fandom has slightly become more peaceful, with many of the fans more prone to Flame War becoming fans of Nocturnal Bloodlust and making its fandom a similar battleground, or leaving jrock entirely for Kpop.
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