Follow TV Tropes

Following

History Film / Kagemusha

Go To

OR

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ArmorPiercingQuestion: "I only stole a few coins. A petty thief. But you've killed hundreds and robbed whole domains. Who is wicked, you or I?"

to:

* ArmorPiercingQuestion: "I only stole a few coins. A petty thief. But you've killed ''killed hundreds and robbed whole domains.domains''. Who is wicked, you or I?"

Added: 544

Changed: 1558

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** The battle was supposed to be in rough terrain surrounded by forests and streams, and the ground was supposed to have been rained on--which gave Katsuyori a reasonable (if ultimately flawed) assumption that a) the Oda-Tokugawa army's gunpowder would have been wet and unusable; and b) the muddy terrain is as much of a disadvantage to the defenders as it is to his cavalry. The same flawed assumption tends to pop up in multiple battles of the Sengoku period.
*** The cavalry did what they were supposed to do given the terrain (which involved forests and streams), and were banking that the enemies were still scared/demoralized following a recent defeat at the previous Battle of Mikatagahara. The film ultimately ignored that what ultimately failed the Takeda cavalry was [[VictoryByEndurance the endurance of the Oda gunners]] [[{{Determinator}} even while being charged upon multiple directions]]. The Takeda cavalry was indeed doing what they should: they just happened to run against a sturdy wall that was firing back.

to:

*** Open plains were actually optimal ground for cavalry, and the Oda lines (beyond the large wooden stockades) were only one line deep. Despite the strength of musket fire, their effective penetrating distance could not have immediately halted and massacred the entire Takeda cavalry at a few distance paces. Indeed, the very strength of the Oda firing line was its depth and alternating fire (i.e. second and third lines firing while the first was reloading). The shallow Oda line as shown in the film would have been easily mowed by the amount of cavalry Katsuyori was shown to be throwing at it.
*** The battle was supposed to be have happened in rough terrain surrounded by forests and streams, and the ground was supposed to have been rained on--which gave Katsuyori does blunt/hamper cavalry charges. (This was why historians and his surviving retainers rightfully criticized Katsuyori). Katsuyori, nonetheless, had a reasonable (if ultimately flawed) assumption that a) the Oda-Tokugawa army's gunpowder would have been wet and unusable; and b) the muddy terrain is as much of a disadvantage to the defenders as it is to his cavalry. The same flawed assumption tends to pop up in multiple battles of the Sengoku period.
*** The cavalry did what they were supposed to do given the terrain (which involved forests and streams), and were banking that the enemies were still scared/demoralized following a recent previous defeat at the previous the Battle of Mikatagahara. The film ultimately ignored that what ultimately failed the Takeda cavalry was [[VictoryByEndurance the endurance of the Oda gunners]] [[{{Determinator}} even while being charged upon multiple directions]]. The Takeda cavalry was indeed doing what they should: they just happened to run against a sturdy wall that was firing back.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* RuleOfSymbolism: While likely ahistorical, it was invoked in [[https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wULv6KQcI7o/maxresdefault.jpg Shingen's battle armor helmet]]. The ''mon'' (emblem) installed is the stylized kanji for "mountain" (山, ''yama''/''zan''), which happened to be the last part of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C5%ABrinkazan the Takeda battle standard]]. Throughout the film, Shingen has been noted to prefer being "the immovable mountain" daring his enemies to bring the battle to him, and this has been the source of most of his victories. Part of the ''kagemusha'''s CharacterDevelopment in the role is in learning to embody it--even as he essentially sends off foot-soldiers to die for him even if he isn't the real Shingen anyway.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The film's [[https://s3.amazonaws.com/criterion-production/images/8393-6dc40105332fcf4aef4b226bf7008cc9/kagemusha_medium.jpg armor for Shingen/the Kagemusha]] explicitly avoided the traditional portrayal [[https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/00_top_takeda_mae-1.jpg of Shingen's armor late in life]], which was a striking [[RedIsHeroic red]], [[GoldColoredSuperiority gold]] and white ensemble]].

to:

** The film's [[https://s3.amazonaws.com/criterion-production/images/8393-6dc40105332fcf4aef4b226bf7008cc9/kagemusha_medium.jpg armor for Shingen/the Kagemusha]] explicitly avoided the traditional portrayal [[https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/00_top_takeda_mae-1.jpg of Shingen's armor late in life]], which was a striking [[RedIsHeroic red]], [[GoldColoredSuperiority gold]] and white ensemble]].ensemble. Contrast this to the later 1990 film ''Heaven and Earth'', [[https://64.media.tumblr.com/4118be3a8f2fb9d0ebe6348cfe14679a/tumblr_inline_p95057UTEg1sxj0nk_540.png which hews closer]] to [[https://japanonfilm.files.wordpress.com/2022/10/vlcsnap-2022-10-31-16h22m05s116.jpg this iconography of Shingen]].

Added: 1029

Changed: 1759

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ArtisticLicenseHistory: This film, including many other series, helped popularize the image of the Battle of Nagashino as a massive case of TooDumbToLive for Takeda Katsuyori--sending wave after wave of his lightly-armored cavalry against volleys of fire in a dry, open plain--guaranteeing the Takeda cavalry were open season to the enemy gunners. In reality, however:
** The battle was supposed to be in rough terrain surrounded by forests and streams, and the ground was supposed to have been rained on--which gave Katsuyori a reasonable (if ultimately flawed) assumption that a) the Oda-Tokugawa army's gunpowder would have been wet and unusable; and b) the muddy terrain is as much of a disadvantage to the defenders as it is to his cavalry. The same flawed assumption tends to pop up in multiple battles of the Sengoku period.
** The cavalry did what they were supposed to do given the terrain (which involved forests and streams), and were banking that the enemies were still scared/demoralized following a recent defeat at the previous Battle of Mikatagahara. The film ultimately ignored that what ultimately failed the Takeda cavalry was [[VictoryByEndurance the endurance of the Oda gunners]] [[{{Determinator}} even while being charged upon multiple directions]]. The Takeda cavalry was indeed doing what they should: they just happened to run against a sturdy wall that was firing back.

to:

* ArtisticLicenseHistory: This film, despite being Kurosawa's closest-to-history work, still takes a significant amount of liberties (starting of course with the very conceit of the ''kagemusha''. In addition, however:
** The film's [[https://s3.amazonaws.com/criterion-production/images/8393-6dc40105332fcf4aef4b226bf7008cc9/kagemusha_medium.jpg armor for Shingen/the Kagemusha]] explicitly avoided the traditional portrayal [[https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/00_top_takeda_mae-1.jpg of Shingen's armor late in life]], which was a striking [[RedIsHeroic red]], [[GoldColoredSuperiority gold]] and white ensemble]].
**
This film, including many other series, helped popularize the image of the Battle of Nagashino as a massive case of TooDumbToLive for Takeda Katsuyori--sending wave after wave of his lightly-armored cavalry against volleys of fire in a dry, open plain--guaranteeing the Takeda cavalry were open season to the enemy gunners. In reality, however:
** *** The battle was supposed to be in rough terrain surrounded by forests and streams, and the ground was supposed to have been rained on--which gave Katsuyori a reasonable (if ultimately flawed) assumption that a) the Oda-Tokugawa army's gunpowder would have been wet and unusable; and b) the muddy terrain is as much of a disadvantage to the defenders as it is to his cavalry. The same flawed assumption tends to pop up in multiple battles of the Sengoku period.
** *** The cavalry did what they were supposed to do given the terrain (which involved forests and streams), and were banking that the enemies were still scared/demoralized following a recent defeat at the previous Battle of Mikatagahara. The film ultimately ignored that what ultimately failed the Takeda cavalry was [[VictoryByEndurance the endurance of the Oda gunners]] [[{{Determinator}} even while being charged upon multiple directions]]. The Takeda cavalry was indeed doing what they should: they just happened to run against a sturdy wall that was firing back.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Excessive blue linking, sometimes to non-applicable tropes.


-->'''Nobukado:''' I often [[DareToBeBadass wanted to be myself, to be free]]. [[SubvertedTrope But now I think it was selfish of me]]. [[TheRemnant The shadow of a man can never stand up and walk on its own]]. [[HappinessInSlavery I was my brother's shadow. Now that I have lost him... I don't know what to do]].

to:

-->'''Nobukado:''' I often [[DareToBeBadass wanted to be myself, to be free]]. [[SubvertedTrope free. But now I think it was selfish of me]]. [[TheRemnant me. The shadow of a man can never stand up and walk on its own]]. [[HappinessInSlavery own. I was my brother's shadow. Now that I have lost him... I don't know what to do]].do.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The battle was supposed to be in rough terrain surrounded by forests and streams, and the ground was supposed to have been rained on--which gave Katsuyori a reasonable (if ultimately flawed) assumption that a) the Oda-Tokugawa army's gunpowder would have been wet and unusable; and b) the muddy terrain would nonetheless be as much of a disadvantage to the defenders as it is to his cavalry. The same flawed assumption tends to pop up in multiple battles of the Sengoku period.
** The cavalry did what they were supposed to do given the terrain (which involved forests and streams), and were banking that the enemies were still scared/demoralized following a recent defeat at the previous Battle of Mikatagahara. The film ultimately ignored that what ultimately did in the Takeda cavalry was [[VictoryByEndurance the endurance of the Oda gunners]] [[{{Determinator}} through discipline and being charged upon multiple directions]].

to:

** The battle was supposed to be in rough terrain surrounded by forests and streams, and the ground was supposed to have been rained on--which gave Katsuyori a reasonable (if ultimately flawed) assumption that a) the Oda-Tokugawa army's gunpowder would have been wet and unusable; and b) the muddy terrain would nonetheless be is as much of a disadvantage to the defenders as it is to his cavalry. The same flawed assumption tends to pop up in multiple battles of the Sengoku period.
** The cavalry did what they were supposed to do given the terrain (which involved forests and streams), and were banking that the enemies were still scared/demoralized following a recent defeat at the previous Battle of Mikatagahara. The film ultimately ignored that what ultimately did in failed the Takeda cavalry was [[VictoryByEndurance the endurance of the Oda gunners]] [[{{Determinator}} through discipline and even while being charged upon multiple directions]].directions]]. The Takeda cavalry was indeed doing what they should: they just happened to run against a sturdy wall that was firing back.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The cavalry did what they were supposed to do given the terrain (which involved forests and streams), and were banking that the enemies were still scared/demoralized following a recent defeat at the previous Battle of Mikatagahara. The film ultimately ignored that what ultimately did in the Takeda cavalry was [[VictoryThroughEndurance the endurance of the Oda gunners]] [[Determinator through discipline and being charged upon multiple directions]].

to:

** The cavalry did what they were supposed to do given the terrain (which involved forests and streams), and were banking that the enemies were still scared/demoralized following a recent defeat at the previous Battle of Mikatagahara. The film ultimately ignored that what ultimately did in the Takeda cavalry was [[VictoryThroughEndurance [[VictoryByEndurance the endurance of the Oda gunners]] [[Determinator [[{{Determinator}} through discipline and being charged upon multiple directions]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* ArtisticLicenseHistory: This film, including many other series, helped popularize the image of the Battle of Nagashino as a massive case of TooDumbToLive for Takeda Katsuyori--sending wave after wave of his lightly-armored cavalry against volleys of fire in a dry, open plain--guaranteeing the Takeda cavalry were open season to the enemy gunners. In reality, however:
** The battle was supposed to be in rough terrain surrounded by forests and streams, and the ground was supposed to have been rained on--which gave Katsuyori a reasonable (if ultimately flawed) assumption that a) the Oda-Tokugawa army's gunpowder would have been wet and unusable; and b) the muddy terrain would nonetheless be as much of a disadvantage to the defenders as it is to his cavalry. The same flawed assumption tends to pop up in multiple battles of the Sengoku period.
** The cavalry did what they were supposed to do given the terrain (which involved forests and streams), and were banking that the enemies were still scared/demoralized following a recent defeat at the previous Battle of Mikatagahara. The film ultimately ignored that what ultimately did in the Takeda cavalry was [[VictoryThroughEndurance the endurance of the Oda gunners]] [[Determinator through discipline and being charged upon multiple directions]].

Changed: 462

Removed: 76

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
The previous quote is more ilustrative and a gives a good overview of the movie ,the other one is just poetic and adds little context


->''Swift as the wind.\\
Quiet as a forest.\\
Fierce as fire.\\
Immovable as a mountain.''
-->-- '''Takeda Shingen's ''furinkazan'' banner'''

to:

->''Swift as ->''"To occupy Kyoto, to fly my flags in the wind.\\
Quiet as
capital, has been my long-cherished dream. But... if something should happen to me, do not pursue that dream. Remember: my death must not be made known. Keep it a forest.\\
Fierce as fire.\\
Immovable as a mountain.''
secret, for at least three years. Guard our domain. Never move from it. Do not move! If you ignore my order and set out to attack, our Takeda clan will be no more. Heed my words! This... is my final wish."''
-->-- '''Takeda Shingen's ''furinkazan'' banner'''
'''Shingen Takeda'''

Added: 441

Removed: 440

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Disambiguated


* AnyoneCanDie: [[spoiler:The Takeda clan perishes under [[GloryHound Katsuyori's]] poor leadership in the final battle. Kagemusha dies too. It's implied some of the leaders [[ScrewThisImOuttaHere fled in time]], however.]] Serving as TruthInTelevision as well, as the Battle of Nagashino was the pivotal battle heralding the downward spiral of the Takeda clan. The Takeda would be finished off seven years later at the Battle of Tenmokuzan.



* KillThemAll: [[spoiler:The Takeda clan perishes under [[GloryHound Katsuyori's]] poor leadership in the final battle. Kagemusha dies too. It's implied some of the leaders [[ScrewThisImOuttaHere fled in time]], however.]] Serving as TruthInTelevision as well, as the Battle of Nagashino was the pivotal battle heralding the downward spiral of the Takeda clan. The Takeda would be finished off seven years later at the Battle of Tenmokuzan.

Top