History DethroningMoment / Literature

14th Feb '17 2:11:08 PM kenyastarflight
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* Tropers/{{Kenyastarflight}}: I had high hopes for Karen Russell's ''Literature/{{Swamplandia}}'', and was enchanted with her writing style and the setting of the novel -- less so with the characters, but I kept reading anyhow. But then, out of nowhere, our protagonist Ava -- a thirteen-year-old girl, mind you -- is [[GratuitousRape Gratituitously Raped]] clear out of the blue by the Bird Man. It sickens me to see rape used as a a cheap means to [[RapeAsDrama inject drama into a story]] or [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil vilify a character]], especially child rape. And worse, not only does the rapist [[KarmaHoudini get away scott-free]], but [[AngstWhatAngst the book makes no effort to show Ava suffering any ill effects from the assault]]. If you're going to include rape in a novel, you had damn well better treat it seriously and not as a cheap plot device, and you had better show just what kind of devastating effects it can have on the victim, not gloss over them and/or pretend it never happened. Ugh... why was this novel nominated for a Pulitzer again?
16th Jan '17 1:52:39 AM SenorCornholio
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Sometimes, when there's a [[DarthWiki/DethroningMomentOfSuck moment of awfulness]] in a book, you wish were the writer and edit that part out, or burn the book.

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Sometimes, when there's a [[DarthWiki/DethroningMomentOfSuck moment of awfulness]] in a book, you wish were the writer and could either edit that part out, out or burn the book.
book entirely.
11th Jan '17 9:45:15 PM Midna
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11th Jan '17 9:44:38 PM Midna
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** Tropers/ZeroHelix: For me the true nadir of the series is Literature/TheScienceOfDiscworld 4, something that reads like a complete 180 to the tone of the previous SODW books altogether. There was none of the parody, none of the humour, just the "science vs religion" Aesop that the first three SODW books had so delicately and masterfully deconstructed, instead now hammered home gratingly, anviliciously straight. It just didn't feel like Terry Pratchet at all... and you know what? I know we're not supposed to generalise in these entries but I feel like someone has to address the elephant in the room, the reason that so many fans have had to admit that there's been a definite decline in Mr Pratchet's work since ''Literature/{{Nation}}''. It's possible that, like Creator/{{Herge}} before him, with his magnum opus done, Mr Pratchet is simply using his twilight years to experiment with his characters... But there is [[CreatorBreakdown another possible explanation]] for the decline, something that nobody wants to admit we're all thinking, because if true, it would make these Dethroning Moments something to inspire [[TearJerker great sadness]] rather than anger.

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** Tropers/ZeroHelix: For me the true nadir of the series is Literature/TheScienceOfDiscworld 4, something that reads like a complete 180 to the tone of the previous SODW books altogether. There was none of the parody, none of the humour, just the "science vs religion" Aesop that the first three SODW books had so delicately and masterfully deconstructed, instead now hammered home gratingly, anviliciously straight. It just didn't feel like Terry Pratchet at all... and you know what? I know we're not supposed to generalise in these entries but I feel like someone has to address the elephant in the room, the reason that so many fans have had to admit that there's been a definite decline in Mr Pratchet's work since ''Literature/{{Nation}}''. It's possible that, like Creator/{{Herge}} before him, with his magnum opus done, Mr Pratchet is simply using his twilight years to experiment with his characters... But there is [[CreatorBreakdown another possible explanation]] for the decline, something that nobody wants to admit we're all thinking, because if true, it would make these Dethroning Moments something to inspire [[TearJerker great sadness]] rather than anger.all.
11th Jan '17 9:42:27 PM Midna
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** Tropers/shinymanaphy: I'm pro-choice, but I agree with the above. In fact, the entire pregnancy was just ''weird'' on that front. It seems as if Meyer is portraying the people who want Bella to abort the child as pro-choice and Bella herself as pro-life, right? Except... Edward tries to take the choice in the matter from Bella, repeatedly. His reaction to the pregnancy is to immediately decide she's getting an abortion, and then he constantly tries to persuade her to do it, even going so far as to get Jacob to offer to knock Bella up in Edward's place so she can have a baby anyway. What the FUCK? Most pro-choice people reading the book would agree that Edward's behaviour is completely shitty, because he's trying to override and take away Bella's ''choice'' to keep the baby. Then, when the baby is born, we get the most Gorn-tastic scene imaginable for it. Umm... does Meyer want her audience to think pregnancy is a wonderful thing or not? If Bella had been able to give birth safely, it would've been a dull cop-out but it might've given more weight to Meyer's argument. But instead she literally ''dies''! All I can think of is that Meyer was trying to make Bella into a martyr who we should want to be like, but... that's not exactly the way to do it, lady. Sheesh.

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** Tropers/shinymanaphy: I'm pro-choice, but I agree with the above. In fact, the entire pregnancy was just ''weird'' weird on that front. It seems as if Meyer is portraying the people who want Bella to abort the child as pro-choice and Bella herself as pro-life, right? Except... Edward tries to take the choice in the matter from Bella, repeatedly. His reaction to the pregnancy is to immediately decide she's getting an abortion, and then he constantly tries to persuade her to do it, even going so far as to get Jacob to offer to knock Bella up in Edward's place so she can have a baby anyway. What the FUCK? fuck? Most pro-choice people reading the book would agree that Edward's behaviour is completely shitty, because he's trying to override and take away Bella's ''choice'' choice to keep the baby. Then, when the baby is born, we get the most Gorn-tastic scene imaginable for it. Umm... does Meyer want her audience to think pregnancy is a wonderful thing or not? If Bella had been able to give birth safely, it would've been a dull cop-out but it might've given more weight to Meyer's argument. But instead she literally ''dies''! dies! All I can think of is that Meyer was trying to make Bella into a martyr who we should want to be like, but... that's not exactly the way to do it, lady. Sheesh.



* Pegase: I love ''Creator/TamoraPierce'' and own a copy of almost every book she's ever written. Some of her more recent books like Battle Magic and Melting Stones aren't quite up to par with the rest of them in my opinion, but they're still pretty good. However, I cannot bring myself to buy or reread Mastiff because [[spoiler: Tunstall betrays Beka and Farmer Cape and leaves them to be tortured. All because he has some weird delusion that the status upgrade the bad guys promise him will make him worthy of Lady Sabine, who already loves him just fine in a function relationship. The insecurity I understand, but leaving the girl he's trained since she was a Puppy, his friend, to be tortured? That destroys his character.]] I had trouble from the get-go with Mastiff because the main action plot starts too soon, which doesn't leave a lot of room in the plot for world building which has always been one of my favorite qualities about Tamora Pierce's books. But I really just couldn't handle that twist though because it ruined the character for me and retroactively cast a shadow on the series. It was an edgy move and a plausible twist, but I really hated it.

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* Pegase: I love ''Creator/TamoraPierce'' Creator/TamoraPierce and own a copy of almost every book she's ever written. Some of her more recent books like Battle Magic and Melting Stones aren't quite up to par with the rest of them in my opinion, but they're still pretty good. However, I cannot bring myself to buy or reread Mastiff because [[spoiler: Tunstall betrays Beka and Farmer Cape and leaves them to be tortured. All because he has some weird delusion that the status upgrade the bad guys promise him will make him worthy of Lady Sabine, who already loves him just fine in a function relationship. The insecurity I understand, but leaving the girl he's trained since she was a Puppy, his friend, to be tortured? That destroys his character.]] I had trouble from the get-go with Mastiff because the main action plot starts too soon, which doesn't leave a lot of room in the plot for world building which has always been one of my favorite qualities about Tamora Pierce's books. But I really just couldn't handle that twist though because it ruined the character for me and retroactively cast a shadow on the series. It was an edgy move and a plausible twist, but I really hated it.



* Tropers/PugBuddies: For the most part, I enjoyed the ''Literature/WelcomeToNightVale'' novel tie-in with the podcast. However, I lost nearly all sympathy for both protagonists at their final confrontation with [[spoiler: the Man in the Tan Jacket. Maybe it's because the podcast and most of the novel seemed to portray him in a more heroic light, but when he's finally revealed as a villain, I didn't quite buy it. Yes, luring three people to a strange town in hopes of making them stay to clean up someone else's mess is a {{Jerkass}} move, but as the book made abundantly clear, his options were limited. The real Dethroner, though, was when Diane said, without a hint of irony, "Maybe if you'd been a better mayor, none of this would have happened." Low blow, Diane. The Man would've been well within bounds to counter with, "And if you'd been a better girlfriend, maybe Troy wouldn't have left." ''That'' is the depth to which she sank, blaming the victim for a disaster he didn't cause and was not prepared for. I thought it couldn't get any worse, but when Jackie and Josh joined Diane in calling the Man names, I was proven wrong.]]

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* Tropers/PugBuddies: For the most part, I enjoyed the ''Literature/WelcomeToNightVale'' novel tie-in with the podcast. However, I lost nearly all sympathy for both protagonists at their final confrontation with [[spoiler: the Man in the Tan Jacket. Maybe it's because the podcast and most of the novel seemed to portray him in a more heroic light, but when he's finally revealed as a villain, I didn't quite buy it. Yes, luring three people to a strange town in hopes of making them stay to clean up someone else's mess is a {{Jerkass}} move, but as the book made abundantly clear, his options were limited. The real Dethroner, though, was when Diane said, without a hint of irony, "Maybe if you'd been a better mayor, none of this would have happened." Low blow, Diane. The Man would've been well within bounds to counter with, "And if you'd been a better girlfriend, maybe Troy wouldn't have left." ''That'' That is the depth to which she sank, blaming the victim for a disaster he didn't cause and was not prepared for. I thought it couldn't get any worse, but when Jackie and Josh joined Diane in calling the Man names, I was proven wrong.]]
1st Jan '17 8:58:13 PM Iris
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** {{Tropers/Iris}}: Apparently RR decided to throw consequences and emotional heft out the window, because it's quite a theme in that book. Jason healing his sword wounds from the first couple chapters with ~the power of believing in yourself, Leo being brought back instantly, negating his HeroicSacrifice, Nico being able to overcome years of InternalizedCategorism just because a cute guy spoke to him-but the absolute nadir for me was the fight with Kym. Percy reveals that he's been [[DeathSeeker intentionally fighting poorly]] as a result of his guilt and trauma from Tartarus. Understandable. Good, even. After all, the first thing we learn about Percy is that he's a "troubled kid" by all accounts. So Jason tells him he gets that...and says nothing else, even when Percy is visibly looking to him for help/sympathy. And it's never brought up again. Not by the narration, or Percy, and certainly not Jason. WhatTheHellHero Not only is it depressingly neglectful writing when compared to the deft handling of Percy's abuse in the first series, it makes you want to punch Jason in the face. If this was Rick's attempt at proving Jason is a responsible leader and a caring friend, it failed miserably.
17th Dec '16 9:07:49 AM ShinyManaphy
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** Tropers/shinymanaphy: I'm pro-choice, but I agree with the above. In fact, the entire pregnancy was just ''weird'' on that front. It seems as if Meyer is portraying the people who want Bella to abort the child as pro-choice and Bella herself as pro-life, right? Except... Edward tries to take the choice in the matter from Bella, repeatedly. His reaction to the pregnancy is to immediately decide she's getting an abortion, and then he constantly tries to persuade her to do it, even going so far as to get Jacob to offer to knock Bella up in Edward's place so she can have a baby anyway. What the FUCK? Most pro-choice people reading the book would agree that Edward's behaviour is completely shitty, because he's trying to override and take away Bella's ''choice'' to keep the baby. Then, when the baby is born, we get the most Gorn-tastic scene imaginable for it. Umm... does Meyer want her audience to think pregnancy is a wonderful thing or not? If Bella had been able to give birth safely, it would've been a dull cop-out but it might've given more weight to Meyer's argument. But instead she literally ''dies''! All I can think of is that Meyer was trying to make Bella into a martyr who we should want to be like, but... that's not exactly the way to do it, lady. Sheesh.
7th Nov '16 2:50:25 PM PugBuddies
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to:

* Tropers/PugBuddies: For the most part, I enjoyed the ''Literature/WelcomeToNightVale'' novel tie-in with the podcast. However, I lost nearly all sympathy for both protagonists at their final confrontation with [[spoiler: the Man in the Tan Jacket. Maybe it's because the podcast and most of the novel seemed to portray him in a more heroic light, but when he's finally revealed as a villain, I didn't quite buy it. Yes, luring three people to a strange town in hopes of making them stay to clean up someone else's mess is a {{Jerkass}} move, but as the book made abundantly clear, his options were limited. The real Dethroner, though, was when Diane said, without a hint of irony, "Maybe if you'd been a better mayor, none of this would have happened." Low blow, Diane. The Man would've been well within bounds to counter with, "And if you'd been a better girlfriend, maybe Troy wouldn't have left." ''That'' is the depth to which she sank, blaming the victim for a disaster he didn't cause and was not prepared for. I thought it couldn't get any worse, but when Jackie and Josh joined Diane in calling the Man names, I was proven wrong.]]
25th Oct '16 4:01:45 PM nombretomado
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* Tropers/KilgoreTrout faithfully bought and read just about every StarWars Expanded Universe novel published that was set after ''ReturnOfTheJedi''. Did I read ''ComicBook/DarkEmpire''? Yes. ''[[JediAcademyTrilogy The Jedi Academy Trilogy?]]'' Indeed, I bought that. ''[[Literature/TheCallistaTrilogy Darksaber]]''? I didn't like it, but I still bought and read it. The only one I think I didn't read was ''Literature/TheCrystalStar'' and the ''Literature/YoungJediKnights'' series. I bought all those books, from mediocre to good to awesome to terrible, because no matter how much I disliked any of them nothing was enough to make me give up on the EU entirely. (''Darksaber'' was enough to make me give up on Anderson, though.) So what finally made me swear off the EU for the foreseeable future? ''Literature/LegacyOfTheForce''. One of my favourite characters, Jacen Solo, turns pure evil for the flimsiest of reasons and begins acting [[CharacterDerailment wildly out of character]]--and this wasn't just a single author getting him wrong, this was everybody. Then, he kills off another of my favourite characters, Mara Jade, which I felt was a MoralEventHorizon. You can blow up a Death Star, you can destroy Carida, but if you kill one of the EU's greatest characters how the hell are you supposed to atone for that even if you want to? Kyp Durron at least came to regret his actions and tried to atone for them. Jacen didn't. I stopped reading the books after the seventh one and read what happened next on Wookieepedia. Turns out that Jacen converted Tahiri into a Sith, so that she proceeded to become his [[TheDragon Dragon]] and does all sorts of horrible, evil shit. They kill off two of the biggest heroes in the story and top it off with a {{Retcon}}. They took Vergere, who made great points about how fucked up the Jedi philosophy was, and {{Retcon}}ed her into being a Sith because I guess GeorgeLucas got his panties in a knot over the idea of some moral ambiguity in his universe.

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* Tropers/KilgoreTrout faithfully bought and read just about every StarWars Expanded Universe novel published that was set after ''ReturnOfTheJedi''. Did I read ''ComicBook/DarkEmpire''? Yes. ''[[JediAcademyTrilogy The Jedi Academy Trilogy?]]'' Indeed, I bought that. ''[[Literature/TheCallistaTrilogy Darksaber]]''? I didn't like it, but I still bought and read it. The only one I think I didn't read was ''Literature/TheCrystalStar'' and the ''Literature/YoungJediKnights'' series. I bought all those books, from mediocre to good to awesome to terrible, because no matter how much I disliked any of them nothing was enough to make me give up on the EU entirely. (''Darksaber'' was enough to make me give up on Anderson, though.) So what finally made me swear off the EU for the foreseeable future? ''Literature/LegacyOfTheForce''. One of my favourite characters, Jacen Solo, turns pure evil for the flimsiest of reasons and begins acting [[CharacterDerailment wildly out of character]]--and this wasn't just a single author getting him wrong, this was everybody. Then, he kills off another of my favourite characters, Mara Jade, which I felt was a MoralEventHorizon. You can blow up a Death Star, you can destroy Carida, but if you kill one of the EU's greatest characters how the hell are you supposed to atone for that even if you want to? Kyp Durron at least came to regret his actions and tried to atone for them. Jacen didn't. I stopped reading the books after the seventh one and read what happened next on Wookieepedia. Turns out that Jacen converted Tahiri into a Sith, so that she proceeded to become his [[TheDragon Dragon]] and does all sorts of horrible, evil shit. They kill off two of the biggest heroes in the story and top it off with a {{Retcon}}. They took Vergere, who made great points about how fucked up the Jedi philosophy was, and {{Retcon}}ed her into being a Sith because I guess GeorgeLucas Creator/GeorgeLucas got his panties in a knot over the idea of some moral ambiguity in his universe.
25th Oct '16 2:55:26 PM Pysiewicz
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* Tropers/{{Pysiewicz}}: ''[[Franchise/TheWitcher The Witcher saga]]'' has its ups and downs over the course of five books and the preceded antologies of short stories. But then the ending is finally there. Every single character that somehow survived till that point, including Geralt and Yennefer, is unceremoniously killed off or at least badly maimed. If you had a name - you are dead by the end. If you were nameless, then you die by the dozen. This includes even incredibly minor characters. And not for dramatic effect, nor for the shock value, but simply for the sake of it. The entire setting shares this fate - there is inevitable ice age incoming and some sort of superplague, combining traits of the Black Death and ebola, is brought back with Ciri by accident from another world. Within final 50 pages, everyone is dead and the world is extra-doomed. All of it, because the author opelny claimed boredom with the series and its characters. In the same time, he was equally open about destroying and killing everything, so nobody will be able pick up the verse to continue. This just came out as petty and spiteful, robbing the saga from having any real ending or sense of closure, while in the same time being simply mean-spiritied. At least newer generations of readers can always indulge in games' continuity, but back when the saga ended, there was nothing saving readers from the bleak GainaxEnding, earned after having read through almost 3000 pages in total. One of the ultimate cases of ShaggyDogStory in Polish literature, as all the events of the saga meant almost nothing and are fully undermined by the end.
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