History DeconstructedTrope / ASongofIceandfire

17th Feb '17 8:06:47 PM qazwsx
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* WeAreStrugglingTogether: In the War of the Five Kings, Robb Stark, Renly, and Stannis Baratheon all have the common goal of removing Joffrey and the Lannisters from the throne. Furthermore, Robb and Balon Greyjoy also want to declare independence from the throne. Together, not even Tywin would have stood a chance of victory. Instead, they refuse to work together, and end up fighting each other as well as the crown: Balon isn't happy with being 'given' his crown, [[WhatAnIdiot and attacks the North instead of the Westerlands, despite the fact they have a common goal.]] Stannis refuses Robb's offer of an alliance in exchange for independence as he wants all the kingdoms to swear fealty, and Renly refuses Stannis' offer because he wants to be king, and isn't happy with being second in line behind Shireen. The result? [[spoiler: [[TheBadGuyWins The Lannisters win]], as all the factions are to busy fighting and weakening each other to focus on their common enemy. Renly, Robb, and Balon are dead, with the causes they fought for put in the ground, and Stannis, despite fighting on, is in ill of a position to win the throne.]]

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* WeAreStrugglingTogether: WeAreStrugglingTogether:
**
In the War of the Five Kings, Robb Stark, Renly, and Stannis Baratheon all have the common goal of removing Joffrey and the Lannisters from the throne. Furthermore, Robb and Balon Greyjoy also want to declare independence from the throne. Together, not even Tywin would have stood a chance of victory. Instead, they refuse to work together, and end up fighting each other as well as the crown: Balon isn't happy with being 'given' his crown, [[WhatAnIdiot and attacks the North instead of the Westerlands, despite the fact they have a common goal.]] Stannis refuses Robb's offer of an alliance in exchange for independence as he wants all the kingdoms to swear fealty, and Renly refuses Stannis' offer because he wants to be king, and isn't happy with being second in line behind Shireen. The result? [[spoiler: [[TheBadGuyWins The Lannisters win]], as all the factions are to busy fighting and weakening each other to focus on their common enemy. Renly, Robb, and Balon are dead, with the causes they fought for put in the ground, and Stannis, despite fighting on, is in ill of a position to win the throne.]]



* WhosLaughingNow: The Freys were among the least respected houses in Westeros, and Robb Stark's breaking of a marriage pact was TheLastStraw in a long string of humiliations. [[spoiler: So they killed him, his mother, and his bannerman during a wedding]] to show that they meant business. While [[spoiler:the Lannisters]] gave them new honors and good marriages, the Freys are actually worse off than before. Rather than merely being mocked, they're now ''[[NeverLiveItDown loathed]]'' by everyone, even their allies, [[spoiler: for breaking SacredHospitality]]. More Freys were killed in retaliation for this event than died in the war but no one bothers to help them, especially as many of the powerful figures around the Freys lost men and relatives in the Red Wedding.

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* WhosLaughingNow: WhosLaughingNow:
**
The Freys were among the least respected houses in Westeros, and Robb Stark's breaking of a marriage pact was TheLastStraw in a long string of humiliations. [[spoiler: So they killed him, his mother, and his bannerman during a wedding]] to show that they meant business. While [[spoiler:the Lannisters]] gave them new honors and good marriages, the Freys are actually worse off than before. Rather than merely being mocked, they're now ''[[NeverLiveItDown loathed]]'' by everyone, even their allies, [[spoiler: for breaking SacredHospitality]]. More Freys were killed in retaliation for this event than died in the war but no one bothers to help them, especially as many of the powerful figures around the Freys lost men and relatives in the Red Wedding.
13th Feb '17 4:58:29 PM Euodiachloris
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* TheQuest: This series goes out of its way to look hard at what a quest actually is. The answer? A complex ShaggyDogStory some wise-arse edited into bits to get smaller and more presentable chunks to shove into an existing narrative framework, attached AnAesop to... and, then put to music well after the dust settled and anybody who could complain about the hack job was in no position to. Because every last character who tries living their lives as if on a great quest finds out that events don't do narrative. Only people do.

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* TheQuest: This series goes out of its way to look hard at what a quest actually is. The answer? A complex ShaggyDogStory some wise-arse edited into bits to get smaller and more presentable chunks to shove into an existing narrative framework, attached AnAesop to... and, then put to music well after the dust settled and anybody who could complain about the hack job was in no position to. Because every last character who tries living their lives as if on a great quest quest, or with an eye to having songs sung about their deeds, finds out that events don't do narrative. Only the people do.describing them do. And, it won't go well if, for example, you're on the losing side. Just ask the Golden Company how great their "quest" is going, for one.
13th Feb '17 4:49:37 PM Euodiachloris
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** Many lords aren't concerned with the death toll among smallfolk except in how it affects them (e.g. how many are left to give orders to). Only the deaths of the famous and powerful inspire strong reactions. As a result, wars are started without a single thought to how it will affect the common people. Even the "good" guys carelessly ruin countless lives with this mentality. Tired of their lords constantly brushing off their suffering, the smallfolk eventually revolt and take over King's Landing in hopes of being able to help themselves, since no one else is going to help them.

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** Many lords aren't concerned with the death toll among smallfolk except in how it affects them (e.g. how many are left to give orders to).to... like "grow the food"). Only the deaths of the famous and powerful inspire strong reactions. As a result, wars are started without a single thought to how it will affect the common people. Even the "good" guys carelessly ruin countless lives with this mentality. Tired of their lords constantly brushing off their suffering, the smallfolk eventually revolt and take over King's Landing in hopes of being able to help themselves, since no one else is going to help them.



* TheQuest:

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* TheQuest: This series goes out of its way to look hard at what a quest actually is. The answer? A complex ShaggyDogStory some wise-arse edited into bits to get smaller and more presentable chunks to shove into an existing narrative framework, attached AnAesop to... and, then put to music well after the dust settled and anybody who could complain about the hack job was in no position to. Because every last character who tries living their lives as if on a great quest finds out that events don't do narrative. Only people do.
13th Feb '17 12:38:15 PM Euodiachloris
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* EqualOpportunityEvil: In a society that values privilege, hierarchy and blood status, any one who tries to make attempts at equality, or insist on some form of it, will come off as "evil" or be considered evil by the powers-to-be who define the values of society:
** Aegon V the Unlikely a.k.a. Egg attempted to be an InternalReformist who wanted to put into effect legal reforms that provided rights to the smallfolk and better improve their lot. To do so he had to curb some of the rights of his vassals. How did they respond, they criticized Egg for being "a bloody-handed tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties", i.e. their liberty to oppress their own subjects. The Iron Islands led by the Drowned Priests rose and brutally massacred any King who sought to improve the rights of thralls.

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* EqualOpportunityEvil: In a society that values privilege, hierarchy and blood inherited status, any one anyone who tries vaguely moves to make attempts at equality, or insist on some form of it, will come off as "evil" or be considered evil by the powers-to-be who powers-that-be who, in turn, define the values and opinions of society:
** Aegon V the Unlikely Unlikely, a.k.a. Egg Egg, attempted to be an InternalReformist who wanted to put into effect legal reforms that provided would provide greater rights to the smallfolk and better improve their lot. To do so he had to curb some of the rights of his more powerful vassals. How did they respond, they respond? They criticized Egg for being "a bloody-handed tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties", i.e. their liberty to oppress their own subjects. The Iron Islands led by the Drowned Priests rose and brutally massacred any King who sought to improve the rights of thralls.
12th Feb '17 11:42:41 PM JulianLapostat
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Added DiffLines:

* EqualOpportunityEvil: In a society that values privilege, hierarchy and blood status, any one who tries to make attempts at equality, or insist on some form of it, will come off as "evil" or be considered evil by the powers-to-be who define the values of society:
** Aegon V the Unlikely a.k.a. Egg attempted to be an InternalReformist who wanted to put into effect legal reforms that provided rights to the smallfolk and better improve their lot. To do so he had to curb some of the rights of his vassals. How did they respond, they criticized Egg for being "a bloody-handed tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties", i.e. their liberty to oppress their own subjects. The Iron Islands led by the Drowned Priests rose and brutally massacred any King who sought to improve the rights of thralls.
** Stannis Baratheon is feared and disliked by many partly because he believes in equality before the law and that those in power who abuse their posts should submit to the same justice doled out on those below them. This makes him come across as unlikable and tyrannical but it also makes him meritocratic and fair, and the first King-claimant in Westerosi history to allow Wildlings to immigrate into the Seven kingdoms and settle on the land with the same rights and dues as any Westerosi of their station.
** Daenerys Targaryen is painted as a violent and terrible queen by people in Volantis and across Essos for her abolitionist crusade, while the slaveowning Qartheen see her leveling attempts as an example of a prized guest turned FallenHero.
** Ser Jorah Mormont hates Ned Stark for driving him away from the North and sees him as a HangingJudge for his crime of selling poachers into slavery. Within Westeros, SlaveryIsASpecialKindOfEvil but Mormont expected a man of his rank and privilege to receive leniency especially since he did it for love. Ned Stark didn't buy it, arriving at Bear Island with his Sword in hand to personally chop his head off at which point Jorah became a fugitive from justice perennially hating and blaming Ned for treating him like any criminal in Westeros.
27th Jan '17 4:11:45 PM qazwsx
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** Robert's Rebellion took place because Mad King Aerys finally took too many liberties with his vassals, and declared open season on three of his biggest ones. But the Targaryen removal from the throne didn't really improve the situation because the usurpers weren't really up to the task of taking the Targaryen position of ruling an entire continent, which is unsuprising since Robert just wanted Lyanna back and take revenge on Rhaegar: Being king ''really'' wasn't on his mind. The after effects of Aerys' {{Tyrannicide}} lays the groundwork of much of the conflict the story records.
** [[spoiler: Tywin betrayed his king and the formerly ruling dynasty, wiped out the family of IdealHeroes, and organised the gang rape of his daughter-in-law for being a peasant amongst other crimes, so Tyrion's {{Patricide}} is completely understandable, yet it doesn't change the fact that as a [[PragmaticVillainy brutal but effective administrator,]] [[NecessarilyEvil his death plunges the realm further into chaos,]] especially since the [[StupidEvil insane ''and'' incompetent]] Cersei takes control of the regime.]]

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** Robert's Rebellion took place because Mad King Aerys finally took too many liberties with his vassals, and declared open season on three of his biggest ones. But the Targaryen removal from the throne didn't really improve the situation because the usurpers weren't really up to the task of taking the Targaryen position of ruling an entire continent, which is unsuprising unsurprising since Robert just wanted Lyanna back and take revenge on Rhaegar: Rhaegar. Being king ''really'' wasn't on his mind. The after effects aftereffects of Aerys' {{Tyrannicide}} lays the groundwork of much of the conflict the story records.
** [[spoiler: Tywin betrayed his king and the formerly ruling dynasty, wiped out the family of IdealHeroes, [[IdealHero ideal heroes]], and organised the gang rape of his daughter-in-law for being a peasant amongst other crimes, so Tyrion's {{Patricide}} is completely understandable, yet it understandable. Yet that doesn't change the fact that as a [[PragmaticVillainy brutal but effective administrator,]] [[NecessarilyEvil his death plunges the realm further into chaos,]] especially since the [[StupidEvil insane ''and'' and incompetent]] Cersei takes control of the regime.]]
27th Jan '17 4:08:43 PM qazwsx
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** In the show, [[spoiler: [[FauxAffablyEvil Euron]] openly admits to kinslaying his own brother, [[LeeroyJenkins Balon,]] and justifies himself on the grounds that [[StupidEvil Balon's rule brought nothing but grief to the Ironborn.]] [[VillainHasAPoint Which may be true,]] but doesn't change the fact that, in the books especially, [[EvilerThanThou Euron is all kinds of worse than Balon could ever be,]] with one tyrant replaced with a more malicious one.]]
26th Jan '17 4:24:27 AM TheFLL
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Added DiffLines:

** [[spoiler: [[RoyalBrat Joffrey]] ends up being gruesomely assassinated at his own wedding, to the cues of AndThereWasMuchRejoicing. Tyrion, however, is made TheScapegoat, and goes through a repulsive HumiliationConga because Joffrey was still the King, and if Tyrion's guilty, he's both a traitor and a kinslayer. In reality, the Tyrells and Littlefinger were responsible for Joffrey's murder, but their reasons for doing so were less about doing a public service, [[PragmaticVillainy and more about furthering their own agendas,]] [[YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness and ridding themselves of a unstable, unpredictable pawn,]] showing how seemingly justified actions can be done with ill intent, and much like Aerys, with disastrous consequences.]]
** In the show, [[spoiler: [[FauxAffablyEvil Euron]] openly admits to kinslaying his own brother, [[LeeroyJenkins Balon,]] and justifies himself on the grounds that [[StupidEvil Balon's rule brought nothing but grief to the Ironborn.]] [[VillainHasAPoint Which may be true,]] but doesn't change the fact that, in the books especially, [[EvilerThanThou Euron is all kinds of worse than Balon could ever be,]] with one tyrant replaced with a more malicious one.]]
16th Jan '17 3:03:24 PM Spookongo
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** Tyrion's demonisation by the commons in King's Landing wouldn't have helped his case with his father after Blackwater when Cersei was able to convince Tywin that most of the preparation and defensive work was her doing. Had the blame for most of the Lannister mistakes been applied to the correct people in the popular mind instead of reaching for the easy "Demon Monkey" scapegoat role they loaded him with, Tywin might have actually taken note and taken pains to include him in later reconstructive efforts. [[TheUnfavourite Well, maybe]]. At the very least, Cersei would not have come out of it quite so glowingly and a whole raft of problems might have been avoided. As it was, Tyrion's perceived failures at curbing the Crown's self-inflicted chaos during the siege using financially and verbally harsh means come back to bite him time and again, [[TheScapegoat blown up out of all proportion]] and scuppering any attempt by all half-competent Lannisters to stabilise the boat ''without'' reaching for the even bigger crackdown-and-take-hostages option. [[spoiler: Tywin, Kevin and Jaime have to resort to this when the wheels start to fall off, if in slightly different ways -- Jaimie and Tywin picking the rather direct versions; Kevin attempting the more diplomatically disguised route.]]

to:

** Tyrion's demonisation by the commons in King's Landing wouldn't have helped his case with his father after Blackwater when Cersei was able to convince Tywin that most of the preparation and defensive work was her doing. Had the blame for most of the Lannister mistakes been applied to the correct people in the popular mind instead of reaching for the easy "Demon Monkey" scapegoat role they loaded him with, Tywin might have actually taken note and taken pains to include him in later reconstructive efforts. [[TheUnfavourite Well, maybe]]. At the very least, Cersei would not have come out of it quite so glowingly and a whole raft of problems might have been avoided. As it was, Tyrion's perceived failures at curbing the Crown's self-inflicted chaos during the siege using financially and verbally harsh means come back to bite him time and again, [[TheScapegoat blown up out of all proportion]] and scuppering any attempt by all half-competent Lannisters to stabilise the boat ''without'' reaching for the even bigger crackdown-and-take-hostages option. [[spoiler: Tywin, Kevin Kevan and Jaime have to resort to this when the wheels start to fall off, if in slightly different ways -- Jaimie and Tywin picking the rather direct versions; Kevin Kevan attempting the more diplomatically disguised route.]]
9th Jan '17 9:05:22 AM johnnye
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* GirlInTheTower: Ned ''thinks'' he's rescuing Lyanna from her kidnapper Prince Rhaegar who's locked her in a remote tower... but when he gets to her, she's already [[DeathByChildbirth dying from bearing Rhaegar's child]], and there are ambiguous implications that her disappearance may have been [[{{Elopement}} voluntary]].

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* GirlInTheTower: GirlInTheTower:
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Ned ''thinks'' he's rescuing Lyanna from her kidnapper Prince Rhaegar who's locked her in a remote tower... but when he gets to her, she's already [[DeathByChildbirth dying from bearing Rhaegar's child]], and there are ambiguous implications that her disappearance may have been [[{{Elopement}} voluntary]].voluntary]].
** Val, the so-called "[[TheChiefsDaughter wildling princess]]", is held prisoner in one of the towers of Castle Black -- even guarded by a (sentient and friendly) giant. When a knight vying for her hand is told that a wildling will [[BestHerToBedHer only respect a man who can "steal" her]], Ser Patrek attacks the giant unprovoked, gets promptly ripped to pieces, and causes a hugely consequential increase in tensions between [[PowderKegCrowd the wildlings, the queen's men, and the Watch.]]
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=DeconstructedTrope.ASongofIceandfire