History Characters / ASongOfIceAndFireHouseBaratheonOfKingsLanding
Correcting Example Indentation and streamlining example text per the Discussion thread. Please bring any corrections there before changing. Thank you.
11th Nov '15 10:35:27 AM JulianLapostat
Any further changes on the issue of Robert's Marital Rape License will come here in this link on the discussion page of this character:
11th Nov '15 10:29:50 AM JulianLapostat
There is a Discussion page, there are other readers and there is a thing called consensus...this topic is already being discussed currently in the Discussion page, please contribute your views there.
That's not your call: I say the evidence in the books arn't enough to reach a forgone conclusion yet. People really do lie to themselves in both real life and in fiction. Now I left an edit that I think is suficcient, so please leave it as is. What you are doing is the same as putting "Serial Rapist" under Michael Jackson's page; there needs to be evidence before accusations can be thrown around, and the thoughts of a single character (one who is out of touch with reality) is NOT conclusive evidence on it's own. If you insist on demonizing, than I will keep correcting this.
11th Nov '15 1:25:21 AM JulianLapostat
There is absolutely no need for any Rule Of Judgment. Because what you are doing is against the standards of citation and inclusion. Literary analysis and interpretation is not supposed to come here. A Wild Mass Guessing exists for that. Especially since the trope page is citing relevant information from the books and is backed by texts. You cannot delete stuff like this solely because you want to think well of Robert. Cersei by the way doesn't tell what happened to her to anyone. It's solely in her own thoughts. She doesn't say this to other characters or anybody else. If you want to persist in including this, please, as I have written below, take this to the Discussion page, and nowhere else.
Cersei never says the word "rape", nor is the scene in question in real time. It is remembered over a decade after it allegedly occurred, and at zero points does the Book show Cersei's thought patterns as being in touch with reality (she justifies Joffery's brutality as "strengh", she likewise refuses to believe that her father slept with a prostitute even after finding one naked in his bed, sheout-of-left-field accuses Eddard of raping Jon Snow's mother, and she sees Tyrion in every shadow). False Rape Accusation happens in real life, so saying "Every Woman's accusation must be taken at face value without having to withstand any scrutiny" is not a reasonable policy. No other character backs up Cersei's claim, there's no physical evidence, and it didn't happen in real time. As a compromise, I made a edit that states what Cersei describes without saying whether it was true or false. It even ends with Ruleof Cautious Editing Judgement because this topic will lead to arguments like this one unless a warning is left.
10th Nov '15 11:38:58 PM JulianLapostat
Changed line(s) 102 (click to see context) from:
10th Nov '15 11:38:22 PM JulianLapostat
What you are suggesting is closer to an entry in the Wild Mass Guessing page than on the trope page. Here we are concerned with what is actually supported in the text. This isn't the same as Cersei killing her childhood friend, Melara Heatherspoon. There is textual support for that and Cersei doesn't lie about it, she simply doesn't think about what happened or voice it (in the same way Eddard doesn't think about Lyanna's promise beyond the fact that it happened). Saying otherwise, is essentially saying a woman is faking being raped which I do not think should be considered. Bring this to the WMG page but not on this, unless you can use actual text, words, parapraphs and the like that says she lied.
Actually, the books drop hints that she's lying to herself about having not murdered her childhood friend; Cersei isn't just a badguy for no reason, it's because she lies and deludes herself and thinks everyone she dislikes is evil. At one point Cersei even verbally accused Eddard of raping Jon Snow's mother, despite Eddard's impeccable reputation. Read "A Telltale Heart" if you still think that a character thinking something automatically makes it 100% true without any room for debate. While there are some who wish to whitewash Robert, there are also a lot of people who want to make him appear as evil as possible. And don't say "He hit her so therefore he would be ok with raping her", hitting and raping are not even similar, and to suggest they're the same thing is disgusting. Now I'm not removing the entire trope, I'm just acknowledging that there is some room for debate.
10th Nov '15 6:47:37 PM JulianLapostat
Let's take this to Discussion please...because I have noticed that a lot of people want to absolve Robert Baratheon of raping Cersei and simply don't want to consider Cersei because she's a bad guy. They forget which book they are reading. Besides Unreliable Narrator only applies to words related by one character to another, it does not refer to the character's own thoughts. Cersei never tells anybody about being raped by Robert. Not Jaime, not Taena no one. We had seen Robert slap Cersei earlier in the first book so there's no reason for us to see that Robert would not do that. This is about the books not YMMV...and from the books there is no implication that Cersei is lying to herself about being raped at all.
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