History CelebrityParadox / Literature

2nd Sep '16 7:09:11 AM Malady
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* The ''Virgil Tibbs'' series by John Ball (which began with ''In the Heat of the Night'') used a variant of the literary agent hypothesis. In ''The Great Detectives'', edited by Otto Penzler, in which various creators of detective series contributed short articles on their creations (e.g. Chester Gould on Dick Tracy, Walter Gibson on the Shadow, etc.), John Ball took the literary agent hypothesis for his article on Virgil Tibbs. He writes "Ms. Diane Stone, secretary to Chief Robert [=McGowan=] of the Pasadena Police Department, was on the phone. "The chief has approved the release to you of the details concerning the Morales murder" she told me. He has authorized you to go ahead with it at any time, if you want to." Of course I wanted to: the unraveling of the case via the patient, intelligent investigation work of the department in general, and Virgil Tibbs in particular, would need no embellishment in the telling. As I always do in such instances, I called Virgil and suggested a meeting. Two nights later we sat down to dine together in one of Pasadena's very fine restaurants........By the time that the main course had been put down in front of us we had gone over the Morales case in detail and Virgil had filled me in on several points which had not previously been made public. As always, I agreed to publish nothing until the department had read the manuscript and had given it an official approval. This procedure helped to eliminate possible errors and also made sure that I had not unintentionally included information which was still confidential." Later Tibbs says "I have a letter from Otto Penzler" I said. Virgil nodded recognition. "The co-author with Steinbrunner of The Encyclopedia of Mystery and Detection? I have a copy." "Otto has asked me for a piece about your background. How much may I tell him?" I should insert a footnote here. Virgil Tibbs is basically a quiet, self-effacing man....He has mentioned to me more than once that my accounts of some of his cases have proved somewhat embarrassing to him. However, Chief [=McGowan=] feels that these books help explain the police function to the citizenry at large and to show how modern, enlightened police departments function."
* The Parker (featuring a ruthless thief) and Dortmunder (featuring a bumbling thief) series (both Donald Westlake, with the former series under the pen name Richard Stark) present a convoluted case. Namely, the Dortmunder novel ''Jimmy the Kid'' established that, in Dortmunder's world, Parker did not exist, and only represented a fictional creation of that world's counterpart of Donald Westlake. In ''Jimmy the Kid'', Dortmunder uses a novel called ''Child Heist'', by Richard Stark, one of Stark's series of novels about a hard-boiled crook named Parker, as a blueprint for how to run a kidnapping. However, Richard Stark is, in real life, as noted, the pseudonym under which Westlake writes the Parker novels. There wasn't a separate novel called ''Child Heist'' in real life, either. Anyway, the kidnapping falls apart and the kid in question, Jimmy, who's kind of a film buff, goes on to make a movie about his experience. There's a chapter at the end of the novel where Richard Stark (no mention of his real name as Westlake in the letter, by the way) and his lawyers are sending each other letters speculating about the possibility of suing the kid for using the plot of ''Child Heist'' in the movie. (The lawyer says no, he can make a movie about his experiences, but Stark can try suing the crooks if he can find them.) This would seem to suggest, that obviously, Dortmunder novels do not exist in Dortmunder's universe, and, as noted, Parker only existed in fiction in Dortmunders' world. However, in the first Dortmunder novel, ''The Hot Rock'', published in 1970, one of the members of Dortmunder's crew, Alan Greenwood, is forced to change his last name after his arrest. We learn in the book's penultimate chapter that he now uses the name Alan Grofield.

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* The ''Virgil Tibbs'' ''Series/VirgilTibbs'' series by John Ball (which began with ''In the Heat of the Night'') used a variant of the literary agent hypothesis. In ''The Great Detectives'', edited by Otto Penzler, in which various creators of detective series contributed short articles on their creations (e.g. Chester Gould on Dick Tracy, Walter Gibson on the Shadow, etc.), John Ball took the literary agent hypothesis for his article on Virgil Tibbs. He writes "Ms. Diane Stone, secretary to Chief Robert [=McGowan=] of the Pasadena Police Department, was on the phone. "The chief has approved the release to you of the details concerning the Morales murder" she told me. He has authorized you to go ahead with it at any time, if you want to." Of course I wanted to: the unraveling of the case via the patient, intelligent investigation work of the department in general, and Virgil Tibbs in particular, would need no embellishment in the telling. As I always do in such instances, I called Virgil and suggested a meeting. Two nights later we sat down to dine together in one of Pasadena's very fine restaurants........By the time that the main course had been put down in front of us we had gone over the Morales case in detail and Virgil had filled me in on several points which had not previously been made public. As always, I agreed to publish nothing until the department had read the manuscript and had given it an official approval. This procedure helped to eliminate possible errors and also made sure that I had not unintentionally included information which was still confidential." Later Tibbs says "I have a letter from Otto Penzler" I said. Virgil nodded recognition. "The co-author with Steinbrunner of The Encyclopedia of Mystery and Detection? I have a copy." "Otto has asked me for a piece about your background. How much may I tell him?" I should insert a footnote here. Virgil Tibbs is basically a quiet, self-effacing man....He has mentioned to me more than once that my accounts of some of his cases have proved somewhat embarrassing to him. However, Chief [=McGowan=] feels that these books help explain the police function to the citizenry at large and to show how modern, enlightened police departments function."
* The Parker (featuring a ruthless thief) and Dortmunder (featuring a bumbling thief) series (both Donald Westlake, Creator/DonaldWestlake, with the former series under the pen name Richard Stark) present a convoluted case. Namely, the Dortmunder novel ''Jimmy the Kid'' established that, in Dortmunder's world, Parker did not exist, and only represented a fictional creation of that world's counterpart of Donald Westlake. In ''Jimmy the Kid'', Dortmunder uses a novel called ''Child Heist'', by Richard Stark, one of Stark's series of novels about a hard-boiled crook named Parker, as a blueprint for how to run a kidnapping. However, Richard Stark is, in real life, as noted, the pseudonym under which Westlake writes the Parker novels. There wasn't a separate novel called ''Child Heist'' in real life, either. Anyway, the kidnapping falls apart and the kid in question, Jimmy, who's kind of a film buff, goes on to make a movie about his experience. There's a chapter at the end of the novel where Richard Stark (no mention of his real name as Westlake in the letter, by the way) and his lawyers are sending each other letters speculating about the possibility of suing the kid for using the plot of ''Child Heist'' in the movie. (The lawyer says no, he can make a movie about his experiences, but Stark can try suing the crooks if he can find them.) This would seem to suggest, that obviously, Dortmunder novels do not exist in Dortmunder's universe, and, as noted, Parker only existed in fiction in Dortmunders' world. However, in the first Dortmunder novel, ''The Hot Rock'', published in 1970, one of the members of Dortmunder's crew, Alan Greenwood, is forced to change his last name after his arrest. We learn in the book's penultimate chapter that he now uses the name Alan Grofield.



* In the novel ''Psycho II'', Norman Bates flees the asylum when he hears that [[Film/{{Psycho}} a film of his murder of Mary Crane]] has started filming. In the book ''Ed Gein -- Psycho!!'' by Paul A. Woods, the author Robert Bloch stated that ''Psycho II'' takes place in a universe where Alfred Hitchcock never made his film adaptation.

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* In the novel ''Psycho ''Literature/{{Psycho}} II'', Norman Bates flees the asylum when he hears that [[Film/{{Psycho}} a film of his murder of Mary Crane]] has started filming. In the book ''Ed Gein -- Psycho!!'' by Paul A. Woods, the author Robert Bloch stated that ''Psycho II'' takes place in a universe where Alfred Hitchcock never made his film adaptation.



* Somewhat subverted in John Ajvide Lindqvist's serial ''Tindalos''. The protagonist in the story is haunted by the horrifying chewing sounds made by a time-twisting EldritchAbomination. She instinctively knows the entity to be named 'Tindalos' which implies that the story takes place in the universe of the CthulhuMythos. At one point in the story hovever, she stumbles over and reads Frank Belknap Long's short-story ''The Hounds of Tindalos'', implying that the story takes place in a world were the the CthulhuMythos is (falsely) considered fictional.

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* Somewhat subverted in John Ajvide Lindqvist's serial ''Tindalos''.''Literature/{{Tindalos}}''. The protagonist in the story is haunted by the horrifying chewing sounds made by a time-twisting EldritchAbomination. She instinctively knows the entity to be named 'Tindalos' which implies that the story takes place in the universe of the CthulhuMythos. At one point in the story hovever, she stumbles over and reads Frank Belknap Long's short-story ''The Hounds of Tindalos'', implying that the story takes place in a world were the the CthulhuMythos is (falsely) considered fictional.
23rd Jul '16 2:25:40 PM nombretomado
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* The novel ''Literature/{{Glamorama}}'' by BretEastonEllis has a [[TheCameo cameo]] by [[Literature/AmericanPsycho Patrick Bateman]] at a party that one of the characters is throwing. On the list of various celebrities who are said to be attending the same party, none other then Creator/ChristianBale is on the list, who played Patrick Bateman in the film adaptation of ''American Psycho''. To be fair, Glamorama did come out a few years before that movie was released, so the author probably didn't intend for this to happen, but it's still a jarring coincidence.

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* The novel ''Literature/{{Glamorama}}'' by BretEastonEllis Creator/BretEastonEllis has a [[TheCameo cameo]] by [[Literature/AmericanPsycho Patrick Bateman]] at a party that one of the characters is throwing. On the list of various celebrities who are said to be attending the same party, none other then Creator/ChristianBale is on the list, who played Patrick Bateman in the film adaptation of ''American Psycho''. To be fair, Glamorama did come out a few years before that movie was released, so the author probably didn't intend for this to happen, but it's still a jarring coincidence.
16th Jun '16 7:57:53 PM PaulA
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** Another example, is the problem of how to deal with Creator/ArthurConanDoyle in a universe where Franchise/SherlockHolmes is a real person. A common idea is making him a {{literary agent|hypothesis}}, but if that was true, he likely wouldn't be as wealthy and famous in that universe as in reality. Another idea is to have one of his other lesser known characters have become incredibly popular.

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** * Another example, is the problem of how to deal with Creator/ArthurConanDoyle in a universe where Franchise/SherlockHolmes is a real person. A common idea is making him a {{literary agent|hypothesis}}, but if that was true, he likely wouldn't be as wealthy and famous in that universe as in reality. Another idea is to have one of his other lesser known characters have become incredibly popular.
16th Jun '16 7:57:30 PM PaulA
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* Arguably, this can occur in literature when characters are based around real people. For example, in Creator/AnthonyTrollope's ''Palliser'' series, there are characters clearly based on real people like Gladstone and Disraeli, but on at least one occasion, the real people were referenced. Another example, is the problem of how to deal with Creator/ArthurConanDoyle in a universe where SherlockHolmes is a real person. A common idea is making him a {{literary agent|hypothesis}}, but if that was true, he likely wouldn't be as wealthy and famous in that universe as in reality.
** Another idea is to have one of his other lesser known characters have become incredibly popular.

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* Arguably, this can occur in literature when characters are based around real people. For example, in Creator/AnthonyTrollope's ''Palliser'' ''Literature/{{Palliser}}'' series, there are characters clearly based on real people like Gladstone UsefulNotes/WilliamGladstone and Disraeli, UsefulNotes/BenjaminDisraeli, but on at least one occasion, the real people were referenced. referenced.
**
Another example, is the problem of how to deal with Creator/ArthurConanDoyle in a universe where SherlockHolmes Franchise/SherlockHolmes is a real person. A common idea is making him a {{literary agent|hypothesis}}, but if that was true, he likely wouldn't be as wealthy and famous in that universe as in reality.
**
reality. Another idea is to have one of his other lesser known characters have become incredibly popular.
4th Apr '16 6:39:45 AM ChronoLegion
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* Played around with in every way possible in ''Literature/{{Redshirts}}''. [[spoiler: The main characters are all characters in a television show who time travel into the "real world" that the show is airing in. As a result, they all have doppelgangers in that real world: the actors who play them. Most of the resolution to the book's plot consists of them finding various ways to exploit this.]]

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* Played around with in every way possible in ''Literature/{{Redshirts}}''. [[spoiler: The main characters are all characters in a television show who time travel into the "real world" that the show is airing in. As a result, they all have doppelgangers in that real world: the actors who play them. Most of the resolution to the book's plot consists of them finding various ways to exploit this. The ending manages to turn even ''that'' on its head, by the protagonist realizing that he's actually in a book (i.e. the one you're reading), which is why everything they did was even possible. One of the guesses is that a character, who should've died as a {{Redshirt}} many times over due to his unimportance to the show's plot, is still alive at the end. The character confirms that his only purpose is to confirm the protagonist's guess about being in a book.]]
26th Mar '16 9:41:54 AM freesefan
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* In the novelization of the 1976 version of ''Film/AStarIsBorn'', John Norman Howard muses that the type of cafe he goes to early on in the story is the kind 'where any wannabe Joni Mitchell or Kris Kristofferson lets themself go up on stage'. Kristofferson portrayed Howard in the film.

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* In the novelization of the 1976 version of ''Film/AStarIsBorn'', John Norman Howard muses that the type of cafe he goes to early on in the story is the kind 'where any wannabe Joni Mitchell or Kris Kristofferson lets themself go up on stage'. Kristofferson portrayed Howard in the film.film.
* ''Literature/ThePoet'' is a mystery thriller written by Creator/MichaelConnelly, starring IntrepidReporter Jack [=McEvoy=]. Later Connelly novels ''Literature/TheNarrows'' and ''Literature/TheScarecrow'' establish that in-universe, ''The Poet'' is a non-fiction true crime book written by [=McEvoy=].
15th Nov '15 8:06:47 AM Morgenthaler
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--> "....it's probably the most interesting philosophical question ever asked about film grammar. Could Creator/HarrisonFord's character in ''WhatLiesBeneath'' rent ''Film/RaidersOfTheLostArk''? Could [[{{Rambo}} John Rambo]] draw personal inspiration from ''Film/{{Rocky}}''? In ''Film/DesperatelySeekingSusan'', what is Music/{{Madonna}} hearing when she goes to a club and dances to her own song? Within the reality of one specific fiction, how do other fictions exist?

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--> "....it's probably the most interesting philosophical question ever asked about film grammar. Could Creator/HarrisonFord's character in ''WhatLiesBeneath'' ''Film/WhatLiesBeneath'' rent ''Film/RaidersOfTheLostArk''? Could [[{{Rambo}} John Rambo]] draw personal inspiration from ''Film/{{Rocky}}''? In ''Film/DesperatelySeekingSusan'', what is Music/{{Madonna}} hearing when she goes to a club and dances to her own song? Within the reality of one specific fiction, how do other fictions exist?
27th Sep '15 8:45:51 PM MissSally
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** Or maybe in this universe the role of the Fourth Doctor was given to one of the other actors considered, such as Fulton Mackay.

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** Or maybe in this universe the role of the Fourth Doctor was given to one of the other actors considered, such as Fulton Mackay.Mackay.
* In the novelization of the 1976 version of ''Film/AStarIsBorn'', John Norman Howard muses that the type of cafe he goes to early on in the story is the kind 'where any wannabe Joni Mitchell or Kris Kristofferson lets themself go up on stage'. Kristofferson portrayed Howard in the film.
24th Sep '15 1:13:50 PM VVK
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* In ''Literature/{{Thinner}}'', the protagonist is said that he's "starting to sound a little like a Stephen King novel." However, King published that book under his PenName Richard Bachman, and made this reference to throw people off.

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* ** In ''Literature/{{Thinner}}'', the protagonist is said that he's "starting to sound a little like a Stephen King novel." However, King published that book under his PenName Richard Bachman, and made this reference to throw people off.
24th Sep '15 1:12:23 PM VVK
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* In one ''Franchise/TheDarkTower'' book (''Literature/TheWasteLands'') Eddie Dean compares a haunted house the characters escaped to the one in Kubrick's ''Literature/TheShining''.
** Considering the fact that Stephen King himself appears in later books in the series, and is basically told by the main characters that he has to write their story, it seems a safe bet that Celebrity Paradox isn't strictly at work here. In their universe (which is also our universe, but also not -- the whole thing is crazy metaphysical and twisted), Stephen King exists, and has written every single book we know him to have written -- and the fact that nearly everything he's written relates back to the very real world of the Dark Tower in some way is caused by the fact that it was his destiny to write about those very real events, even if everyone (including him) thought he was writing fiction.
** King believes that the movie is different enough from his original work for it to be considered its own work. Presumably Kubrick made the movie in Eddie's world without the source material.
*** Considering his opinions on the subject, if you asked Stephen King, he might suggest that Kubrick made the movie in OUR world without the source material as well.

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* A number of Creator/StephenKing's books reference him or things related to him, which gets complicated especially in ''The Dark Tower''.
**
In one ''Franchise/TheDarkTower'' book (''Literature/TheWasteLands'') Eddie Dean compares a haunted house the characters escaped to the one in Kubrick's ''Literature/TheShining''.
** Considering
''Literature/TheShining''. Of course, later in the fact that Stephen series King himself appears as a character in later books in one of the series, and is basically told by worlds who's been writing about the main characters that he has to write their story, it seems a safe bet that Celebrity Paradox isn't strictly at work here. In their universe (which is also our universe, but also not -- the whole thing is crazy metaphysical and twisted), Stephen King exists, and has written every single book we know him to have written -- and the fact that nearly everything other characters. But he's written relates back to the very real from a different world of the Dark Tower in some way is caused by the fact that it was his destiny to write about those very real events, even if everyone (including him) thought he was writing fiction.
** King believes that
than Eddie, so how did the movie get made there? It's not explained, but one might say, half tongue in cheek, that since King thinks Kubrik's film is so different enough from his original work for it to be considered its own work. Presumably Kubrick the original, maybe Kubrik made the movie in Eddie's world film there without the source material.
*** Considering his opinions on the subject, if you asked Stephen King, he might suggest that Kubrick made the movie in OUR world without the source material as well.
material.
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