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Finally, it must be mentioned that neither Rose nor any of her family appear in ''Fellowship'' at all, which renders Sam's first thoughts of her and her brothers in the middle of R.o.t.K.[[note]]Early in Book VI, when he resigns himself to [[SuicideMission practically certain death at Mount Doom]][[/note]] as a RememberTheNewGuy moment. It is likely that Tolkien was aware of the [[RelationshipWritingFumble fumble]] he had committed at the end of ''The Two Towers'' (the first quote above) and created Rosie [[HaveIMentionedIAmHeterosexualToday to counteract it]]. It should also be noted that Tolkien is sometimes considered to have fumbled with Eowyn in regards to Aragorn, but [[PairTheSpares the remedy for that case]] involved a character first mentioned in ''Fellowship'' and having a significant role in [[SimultaneousArcs Frodo & Sam's half of]] ''Towers''. The movies, to their credit, [[EarlyBirdCameo set up Rose]] by including a moment between her and Sam at Bilbo's party.[[note]]Which was required for the wedding scene due to the PostClimaxConfrontation, which had the first actual appearance of the Cottons, being AdaptedOut.[[/note]]

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Finally, it must be mentioned that neither Rose nor any of her family appear in ''Fellowship'' at all, which renders Sam's first thoughts of her and her brothers in the middle of R.o.t.K.[[note]]Early in Book VI, when he resigns himself to [[SuicideMission practically certain death at Mount Doom]][[/note]] as a RememberTheNewGuy moment. It is likely that Tolkien was aware of the [[RelationshipWritingFumble [[PlatonicWritingRomanticReading fumble]] he had committed at the end of ''The Two Towers'' (the first quote above) and created Rosie [[HaveIMentionedIAmHeterosexualToday to counteract it]]. It should also be noted that Tolkien is sometimes considered to have fumbled with Eowyn in regards to Aragorn, but [[PairTheSpares the remedy for that case]] involved a character first mentioned in ''Fellowship'' and having a significant role in [[SimultaneousArcs Frodo & Sam's half of]] ''Towers''. The movies, to their credit, [[EarlyBirdCameo set up Rose]] by including a moment between her and Sam at Bilbo's party.[[note]]Which was required for the wedding scene due to the PostClimaxConfrontation, which had the first actual appearance of the Cottons, being AdaptedOut.[[/note]]
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Finally, it must be mentioned that neither Rose nor any of her family appear in ''Fellowship'' at all, which renders Sam's first thoughts of her and her brothers in the middle of R.o.t.K.[[note]]Early in Book VI, when he resigns himself to [[SuicideMission practically certain death at Mount Doom]][[/note]] as a RememberTheNewGuy moment. It is likely that Tolkien was aware of the [[RelationshipWritingFumble fumble]] he had committed at the end of ''The Two Towers'' (the first quote above) and created Rosie [[HaveIMentionedIAmHeterosexualToday to counteract it]]. It should also be noted that Tolkien is considered to have fumbled with Eowyn in regards to Aragorn, but [[PairTheSpares the remedy for that case]] involved a character first mentioned in ''Fellowship'' and having a significant role in [[SimultaneousArcs Frodo & Sam's half of]] ''Towers''. The movies, to their credit, [[EarlyBirdCameo set up Rose]] by including a moment between her and Sam at Bilbo's party.[[note]]Which was required for the wedding scene due to the PostClimaxConfrontation, which had the first actual appearance of the Cottons, being AdaptedOut.[[/note]]

to:

Finally, it must be mentioned that neither Rose nor any of her family appear in ''Fellowship'' at all, which renders Sam's first thoughts of her and her brothers in the middle of R.o.t.K.[[note]]Early in Book VI, when he resigns himself to [[SuicideMission practically certain death at Mount Doom]][[/note]] as a RememberTheNewGuy moment. It is likely that Tolkien was aware of the [[RelationshipWritingFumble fumble]] he had committed at the end of ''The Two Towers'' (the first quote above) and created Rosie [[HaveIMentionedIAmHeterosexualToday to counteract it]]. It should also be noted that Tolkien is sometimes considered to have fumbled with Eowyn in regards to Aragorn, but [[PairTheSpares the remedy for that case]] involved a character first mentioned in ''Fellowship'' and having a significant role in [[SimultaneousArcs Frodo & Sam's half of]] ''Towers''. The movies, to their credit, [[EarlyBirdCameo set up Rose]] by including a moment between her and Sam at Bilbo's party.[[note]]Which was required for the wedding scene due to the PostClimaxConfrontation, which had the first actual appearance of the Cottons, being AdaptedOut.[[/note]]
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[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by [[Myth/NorseMythology Norse and (more broadly) Germanic mythology]], as well as various other sources (chief among them being Myth/CelticMythology, Myth/ClassicalMythology, Greek philosophy, and Literature/TheBible--i.e. the greatest sources and deepest roots of Western culture as a whole). There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from Literature/{{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves. And of course, Eru Ilúvatar is (explicitly) YHWH the Creator, the Valar and Maiar are angels, Morgoth is Satan, and Elves are Man before the Fall.

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[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by [[Myth/NorseMythology Norse and (more broadly) Germanic mythology]], as well as various other sources (chief among them being Myth/CelticMythology, Myth/ClassicalMythology, Greek philosophy, and Literature/TheBible--i.e. the greatest sources and deepest roots of Western culture as a whole). There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from Literature/{{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, Tír na nÓg *ahem* Valinor, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves. And of course, Eru Ilúvatar is (explicitly) YHWH the Creator, the Valar and Maiar are angels, Morgoth is Satan, and Elves are Man before the Fall.
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[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by [[Myth/NorseMythology Norse and (more broadly) Germanic mythology]], as well as various other sources (chief among them being Myth/CelticMythology, Myth/ClassicalMythology, Greek philosophy, and Literature/TheBible--i.e. the greatest sources and deepest roots of Western culture as a whole). There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from Literature/{{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves. And of course, Eru Ilúvatar is (explicitly) YHWH the Creator, while Morgoth is Satan, and Elves are Man before the Fall.

to:

[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by [[Myth/NorseMythology Norse and (more broadly) Germanic mythology]], as well as various other sources (chief among them being Myth/CelticMythology, Myth/ClassicalMythology, Greek philosophy, and Literature/TheBible--i.e. the greatest sources and deepest roots of Western culture as a whole). There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from Literature/{{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves. And of course, Eru Ilúvatar is (explicitly) YHWH the Creator, while the Valar and Maiar are angels, Morgoth is Satan, and Elves are Man before the Fall.
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[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by [[Myth/NorseMythology Norse and (more broadly) Germanic mythology]], as well as various other sources (chief among them being Myth/ClassicalMythology, Myth/CelticMythology, and Literature/TheBible--i.e. the greatest sources and deepest roots of Western culture as a whole). There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from Literature/{{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.

to:

[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by [[Myth/NorseMythology Norse and (more broadly) Germanic mythology]], as well as various other sources (chief among them being Myth/CelticMythology, Myth/ClassicalMythology, Myth/CelticMythology, Greek philosophy, and Literature/TheBible--i.e. the greatest sources and deepest roots of Western culture as a whole). There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from Literature/{{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.
elves. And of course, Eru Ilúvatar is (explicitly) YHWH the Creator, while Morgoth is Satan, and Elves are Man before the Fall.
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[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by Nordic mythology, as well as various other sources. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from Literature/{{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.

to:

[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by Nordic mythology, [[Myth/NorseMythology Norse and (more broadly) Germanic mythology]], as well as various other sources.sources (chief among them being Myth/ClassicalMythology, Myth/CelticMythology, and Literature/TheBible--i.e. the greatest sources and deepest roots of Western culture as a whole). There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from Literature/{{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.
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Nevertheless, many have commented that the term "friendship" isn't quite strong enough to describe Sam and Frodo's bond. Some have called it brotherly; others speculate that Sam is a [[UsefulNotes/ForTheLoveOfMany polyamorous]] [[{{UsefulNotes/Bisexual}} bisexual]], or believe that Frodo is [[SingleTargetSexuality Sam-sexual]], or ship [[{{OT3}} Sam/Frodo/Rosie]]. An example of a purely platonic relationship is that of Frodo and Merry or Pippin, who are described as Frodo's "closest friends" in FOTR, ch. 2. Note that this quote is from before the Quest kicks off. Frodo has undoubtedly been fond of Sam for some time, as shown at the end of this chapter, but at this point Sam is still his slightly dim-witted gardener. Later, as the journey grows more arduous and the two of them are forced to go on alone, the already unusual master-servant relationship (Frodo is never shown giving Sam orders, and calls him a friend, which implies equal status) will shift into something more, well, [[AmbiguouslyGay ambiguous]] as the two of them become more dependent on each other alone.

to:

Nevertheless, many have commented that the term "friendship" isn't quite strong enough to describe Sam and Frodo's bond. Some have called it brotherly; others speculate that Sam is a [[UsefulNotes/ForTheLoveOfMany polyamorous]] [[{{UsefulNotes/Bisexual}} bisexual]], polyamorous bisexual, or believe that Frodo is [[SingleTargetSexuality Sam-sexual]], or ship [[{{OT3}} Sam/Frodo/Rosie]]. An example of a purely platonic relationship is that of Frodo and Merry or Pippin, who are described as Frodo's "closest friends" in FOTR, ch. 2. Note that this quote is from before the Quest kicks off. Frodo has undoubtedly been fond of Sam for some time, as shown at the end of this chapter, but at this point Sam is still his slightly dim-witted gardener. Later, as the journey grows more arduous and the two of them are forced to go on alone, the already unusual master-servant relationship (Frodo is never shown giving Sam orders, and calls him a friend, which implies equal status) will shift into something more, well, [[AmbiguouslyGay ambiguous]] as the two of them become more dependent on each other alone.
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No longer a trope per TRS


Finally, it must be mentioned that neither Rose nor any of her family appear in ''Fellowship'' at all, which renders Sam's first thoughts of her and her brothers in the middle of R.o.t.K.[[note]]Early in Book VI, when he resigns himself to [[SuicideMission practically certain death at Mount Doom]][[/note]] as a RememberTheNewGuy moment. It is likely that Tolkien was aware of the [[RelationshipWritingFumble fumble]] he had committed at the end of ''The Two Towers'' (the first quote above) and created Rosie [[HaveIMentionedIAmHeterosexualToday to counteract it]]. It should also be noted that Tolkien is considered to have fumbled with Eowyn in regards to Aragorn, but [[PairTheSpares the remedy for that case]] involved a character first mentioned in ''Fellowship'' and having a significant role in [[SimultaneousArcs Frodo & Sam's half of]] ''Towers''. The movies, to their credit, [[EarlyBirdCameo set up Rose]] by including a moment between her and Sam at Bilbo's party.[[note]]Which was required for the [[WeddingDay Wedding Scene]] due to the PostClimaxConfrontation, which had the first actual appearance of the Cottons, being AdaptedOut.[[/note]]

to:

Finally, it must be mentioned that neither Rose nor any of her family appear in ''Fellowship'' at all, which renders Sam's first thoughts of her and her brothers in the middle of R.o.t.K.[[note]]Early in Book VI, when he resigns himself to [[SuicideMission practically certain death at Mount Doom]][[/note]] as a RememberTheNewGuy moment. It is likely that Tolkien was aware of the [[RelationshipWritingFumble fumble]] he had committed at the end of ''The Two Towers'' (the first quote above) and created Rosie [[HaveIMentionedIAmHeterosexualToday to counteract it]]. It should also be noted that Tolkien is considered to have fumbled with Eowyn in regards to Aragorn, but [[PairTheSpares the remedy for that case]] involved a character first mentioned in ''Fellowship'' and having a significant role in [[SimultaneousArcs Frodo & Sam's half of]] ''Towers''. The movies, to their credit, [[EarlyBirdCameo set up Rose]] by including a moment between her and Sam at Bilbo's party.[[note]]Which was required for the [[WeddingDay Wedding Scene]] wedding scene due to the PostClimaxConfrontation, which had the first actual appearance of the Cottons, being AdaptedOut.[[/note]]
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None






There were, though, some tropes Creator/JRRTolkien couldn't justify to his satisfaction, not helped by the fact that he updated his mythos constantly over a period of decades, creating a minor ContinuitySnarl at times but never quite reaching the ShrugOfGod. He spent years trying to decide how orcs could be AlwaysChaoticEvil without being born evil or soulless -- since Eru would not give creatures inherently evil souls, on moral grounds, Morgoth was unable to create souls, and Tolkien believed anything without a soul would be a mere animal -- but he never found any answer he liked. It was philosophical niggles like this that stopped him from publishing ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'' in his lifetime. His son Christopher did it posthumously, to the delight of all Tolkien scholars, and most of his readers.

to:

There were, though, some tropes Creator/JRRTolkien couldn't justify to his satisfaction, not helped by the fact that he updated his mythos constantly over a period of decades, creating a minor ContinuitySnarl at times but never quite reaching the ShrugOfGod. He spent years trying to decide how orcs could be AlwaysChaoticEvil without being born evil or soulless -- since Eru would not give creatures inherently evil souls, on moral grounds, Morgoth was unable to create souls, and Tolkien believed anything without a soul would be a mere animal -- but he never found any answer he liked. It was philosophical niggles like this that stopped him from publishing ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'' in his lifetime. His son Christopher did it posthumously, to the delight of all Tolkien scholars, and most of his readers.readers.
----
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None



to:

Finally, it must be mentioned that neither Rose nor any of her family appear in ''Fellowship'' at all, which renders Sam's first thoughts of her and her brothers in the middle of R.o.t.K.[[note]]Early in Book VI, when he resigns himself to [[SuicideMission practically certain death at Mount Doom]][[/note]] as a RememberTheNewGuy moment. It is likely that Tolkien was aware of the [[RelationshipWritingFumble fumble]] he had committed at the end of ''The Two Towers'' (the first quote above) and created Rosie [[HaveIMentionedIAmHeterosexualToday to counteract it]]. It should also be noted that Tolkien is considered to have fumbled with Eowyn in regards to Aragorn, but [[PairTheSpares the remedy for that case]] involved a character first mentioned in ''Fellowship'' and having a significant role in [[SimultaneousArcs Frodo & Sam's half of]] ''Towers''. The movies, to their credit, [[EarlyBirdCameo set up Rose]] by including a moment between her and Sam at Bilbo's party.[[note]]Which was required for the [[WeddingDay Wedding Scene]] due to the PostClimaxConfrontation, which had the first actual appearance of the Cottons, being AdaptedOut.[[/note]]
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None


[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by Nordic mythology, as well as various other sources. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.

to:

[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by Nordic mythology, as well as various other sources. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}} Literature/{{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by Nordic mythology, as well as various other sources. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.

to:

[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by Nordic mythology, as well as various other sources. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} Myth/{{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.

Added: 1421

Changed: 8

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!!The Nature Of Evil in Middle-Earth

to:

!!The Nature Of Evil nature of evil in Middle-Earth
Middle-earth



Note that both Sauron and Saruman were originally servants of Aule before they turned to evil. They were both craftsmen, skilled at making things. The temptation to enslave others, to take a creature with a will of its own and bend it into a mere ''thing'' to be controlled, is particularly strong in those who are builders. Aule himself is able to resist this temptation, because as a pure Artist he takes joy in the act of creation, and has no desire to impose his will over anything or anyone. It's not evil to create, even to create life. But it is evil to assume that once you create something, it belongs to you forever.

to:

Note that both Sauron and Saruman were originally servants of Aule before they turned to evil. They were both craftsmen, skilled at making things. The temptation to enslave others, to take a creature with a will of its own and bend it into a mere ''thing'' to be controlled, is particularly strong in those who are builders. Aule himself is able to resist this temptation, because as a pure Artist he takes joy in the act of creation, and has no desire to impose his will over anything or anyone. It's not evil to create, even to create life. But it is evil to assume that once you create something, it belongs to you forever.forever.

!!Tropes in LOTR



The majority of tropes used in ''The Lord of the Rings'' are well-explained, unlike in the majority of its [[TheThemeParkVersion imitators]]. For instance, Mordor has large fertile areas offstage where food is grown, thus explaining how Sauron's armies survive in the volcanic hellscape around Barad-dûr. The [[ArtifactOfDoom Ring]] is also more than just a convenient MacGuffin -- its effects matter too much for that. This is largely due to the immensely elaborated BackStory and Tolkien's life-defining experiences in [[http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-tolkiene.html The Great War.]]

There were, though, some tropes Creator/JRRTolkien couldn't justify to his satisfaction, not helped by the fact that he updated his mythos constantly over a period of decades, creating a minor ContinuitySnarl at times but never quite reaching the ShrugOfGod. He spent years trying to decide how orcs could be AlwaysChaoticEvil without being born evil or soulless -- since Eru would not give creatures inherently evil souls, on moral grounds, Morgoth was unable to create souls, and Tolkien believed anything without a soul would be a mere animal -- but he never found any answer he liked. It was philosophical niggles like this that stopped him from publishing ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'' in his lifetime. His son Christopher did it posthumously, to the delight of all Tolkien scholars, and most of his readers.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by Nordic mythology, as well as various other sources. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.

to:

[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather fanfiction of a sort inspired by Nordic mythology, as well as various other sources. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.elves.

!!The Nature Of Evil in Middle-Earth

Ownership is the root of evil in Middle-Earth. Melkor's fall was not based on his desire to create life, but his desire to control the life he created. Compare his experience with that of Aule, who also sought to create life, but since he did it without selfish intent, he was forgiven and his creations, the Dwarves, were give true life of their own. Evil intent is defined by the attempt to bend life to your own individual will.

Note that both Sauron and Saruman were originally servants of Aule before they turned to evil. They were both craftsmen, skilled at making things. The temptation to enslave others, to take a creature with a will of its own and bend it into a mere ''thing'' to be controlled, is particularly strong in those who are builders. Aule himself is able to resist this temptation, because as a pure Artist he takes joy in the act of creation, and has no desire to impose his will over anything or anyone. It's not evil to create, even to create life. But it is evil to assume that once you create something, it belongs to you forever.
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None


Nevertheless, many have commented that the term "friendship" isn't quite strong enough to describe Sam and Frodo's bond. Some have called it brotherly; others speculate that Sam is a [[UsefulNotes/ForTheLoveOfMany polyamorous]] [[UsefulNotes/Bisexual bisexual]], or believe that Frodo is [[SingleTargetSexuality Sam-sexual]], or ship [[{{OT3}} Sam/Frodo/Rosie]]. An example of a purely platonic relationship is that of Frodo and Merry or Pippin, who are described as Frodo's "closest friends" in FOTR, ch. 2. Note that this quote is from before the Quest kicks off. Frodo has undoubtedly been fond of Sam for some time, as shown at the end of this chapter, but at this point Sam is still his slightly dim-witted gardener. Later, as the journey grows more arduous and the two of them are forced to go on alone, the already unusual master-servant relationship (Frodo is never shown giving Sam orders, and calls him a friend, which implies equal status) will shift into something more, well, [[AmbiguouslyGay ambiguous]] as the two of them become more dependent on each other alone.

to:

Nevertheless, many have commented that the term "friendship" isn't quite strong enough to describe Sam and Frodo's bond. Some have called it brotherly; others speculate that Sam is a [[UsefulNotes/ForTheLoveOfMany polyamorous]] [[UsefulNotes/Bisexual [[{{UsefulNotes/Bisexual}} bisexual]], or believe that Frodo is [[SingleTargetSexuality Sam-sexual]], or ship [[{{OT3}} Sam/Frodo/Rosie]]. An example of a purely platonic relationship is that of Frodo and Merry or Pippin, who are described as Frodo's "closest friends" in FOTR, ch. 2. Note that this quote is from before the Quest kicks off. Frodo has undoubtedly been fond of Sam for some time, as shown at the end of this chapter, but at this point Sam is still his slightly dim-witted gardener. Later, as the journey grows more arduous and the two of them are forced to go on alone, the already unusual master-servant relationship (Frodo is never shown giving Sam orders, and calls him a friend, which implies equal status) will shift into something more, well, [[AmbiguouslyGay ambiguous]] as the two of them become more dependent on each other alone.
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Interestingly enough, Sam is the only one of the five prominently featured hobbits to show any attraction towards a female during the course of the novel. Frodo and Bilbo are never in any openly romantic relationships whatsoever; Merry and Pippin get hitched later in life to two hobbits we know nothing about. Sam's love for Rosie, rather than being subtext, is plainly obvious to himself and to everyone around him, to the point where even Rosie's father has caught on. He thinks about her wistfully as his strength wanes on the slopes of Mount Doom, and later blushes mightily when Frodo talks about how brave and famous he is in front of her. Eventually she bears him a grand total of thirteen children, and only after her death does he leave Middle-earth to see Frodo.

Nevertheless, many have commented that the term "friendship" isn't quite strong enough to describe Sam and Frodo. Some have called it brotherly; others speculate that Sam is a polyamorous bisexual, believe Frodo is [[SingleTargetSexuality Sam-sexual]], or ship [[{{OT3}} Sam/Frodo/Rosie]]. An example of a purely platonic relationship is that of Frodo and Merry or Pippin, who are described as Frodo's "closest friends" in FOTR, ch. 2. Note that this quote is from before the Quest kicks off. Frodo has undoubtedly been fond of Sam for some time, as shown at the end of this chapter, but at this point Sam is still his slightly dim-witted gardener. Later, as the journey grows more arduous and the two of them are forced to go on alone, the already unusual master-servant relationship (Frodo is never shown giving Sam orders, and calls him a friend, which implies equal status) will shift into something more, well, [[AmbiguouslyGay ambiguous]] as Sam matures and takes on more responsibility.

to:

Interestingly enough, Sam is the only one of the five prominently featured hobbits to show any attraction towards a female during the course of the novel. Frodo and Bilbo are never in any openly romantic relationships whatsoever; Merry and Pippin get hitched later in life to two hobbits we know nothing about. Sam's love for Rosie, rather than being subtext, is plainly obvious to himself and to everyone around him, to the point where even Rosie's father has caught on. He thinks about her Rosie wistfully as his strength wanes on the slopes of Mount Doom, and later blushes mightily when Frodo talks about how brave and famous he is in front of her. Eventually she bears him a grand total of thirteen children, and only after her death does he leave Middle-earth to see Frodo.

Nevertheless, many have commented that the term "friendship" isn't quite strong enough to describe Sam and Frodo. Frodo's bond. Some have called it brotherly; others speculate that Sam is a polyamorous bisexual, [[UsefulNotes/ForTheLoveOfMany polyamorous]] [[UsefulNotes/Bisexual bisexual]], or believe that Frodo is [[SingleTargetSexuality Sam-sexual]], or ship [[{{OT3}} Sam/Frodo/Rosie]]. An example of a purely platonic relationship is that of Frodo and Merry or Pippin, who are described as Frodo's "closest friends" in FOTR, ch. 2. Note that this quote is from before the Quest kicks off. Frodo has undoubtedly been fond of Sam for some time, as shown at the end of this chapter, but at this point Sam is still his slightly dim-witted gardener. Later, as the journey grows more arduous and the two of them are forced to go on alone, the already unusual master-servant relationship (Frodo is never shown giving Sam orders, and calls him a friend, which implies equal status) will shift into something more, well, [[AmbiguouslyGay ambiguous]] as Sam matures and takes on the two of them become more responsibility.
dependent on each other alone.
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Interestingly enough, Sam is the only one of the five prominently featured hobbits to show any attraction towards a female during the course of the novel. Frodo and Bilbo are never in any openly romantic relationships whatsoever; Merry and Pippin get hitched later in life to two hobbits we know nothing about. Sam's love for Rosie is, rather than being subtext, plainly obvious to himself and to everyone around him, to the point where even Rosie's father has caught on. He thinks about her wistfully as his strength wanes on the slopes of Mount Doom, and later blushes mightily when Frodo talks about how brave and famous he is in front of her. Eventually she bears him a grand total of thirteen children, and only after her death does he leave Middle-earth to see Frodo.

to:

Interestingly enough, Sam is the only one of the five prominently featured hobbits to show any attraction towards a female during the course of the novel. Frodo and Bilbo are never in any openly romantic relationships whatsoever; Merry and Pippin get hitched later in life to two hobbits we know nothing about. Sam's love for Rosie is, Rosie, rather than being subtext, is plainly obvious to himself and to everyone around him, to the point where even Rosie's father has caught on. He thinks about her wistfully as his strength wanes on the slopes of Mount Doom, and later blushes mightily when Frodo talks about how brave and famous he is in front of her. Eventually she bears him a grand total of thirteen children, and only after her death does he leave Middle-earth to see Frodo.
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Although any HoYay was certainly unintentional on Tolkien's part - being a devout Catholic writing in the 40s and 50s, he would most likely have disapproved of queer relationships - there are two relevant quotes from the books that actually liken their relationship both to a marriage and to an animal partnership. One appears in ''The Two Towers'', during the passage where Sam battles [[EldritchAbomination Shelob]] to save Frodo. There Sam is described as "''a small creature [...] that stands above its fallen mate.''"

The second is written in the epilogue ([[AllThereInTheManual published posthumously]]), where Sam tells his daughter that Celeborn lost his wife, Galadriel, when she sailed west. Elanor responds by likening Sam and Frodo's relationship to theirs, noting that Frodo also left Sam behind when he departed for Valinor. She tells Sam, "''He knew that [...] Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad.''" Sam does not, as might be expected, correct her comments as a childish misunderstanding. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature; instead he says that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.


to:

Although any HoYay was certainly unintentional on Tolkien's part - being a devout Catholic writing in the 40s and 50s, he would most likely have disapproved of queer relationships - there are two relevant quotes from the books that actually liken their relationship both to a marriage and to an animal partnership. One appears in ''The Two Towers'', during the passage where Sam battles [[EldritchAbomination Shelob]] to save Frodo. There Sam is described as "''a small creature [...] that stands above its fallen mate.''"

The second is written in the epilogue ([[AllThereInTheManual published posthumously]]), where Sam tells his daughter that Celeborn lost and his wife, Galadriel, were separated when she sailed west. Elanor responds by likening Sam and Frodo's relationship to theirs, noting that Frodo also left Sam behind when he departed for Valinor. She tells Sam, "''He knew that [...] Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad.''" Sam does not, as might be expected, not correct her comments as a childish misunderstanding. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature; instead he says that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.

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None


The [[HoYay somewhat ambiguous nature]] of Sam and Frodo's relationship has long been a topic of discussion among scholars and fans alike. Most people agree that the bond between them is very close, whether they consider it platonic or not; the two spend most of the story in each other's company, share many thoughtful conversations, trust each other with their lives, and end up living together even after Sam's marriage. Sam also sleeps with Frodo's head in his lap several times during their journey, kisses his hand on numerous occasions, and feels torn between his master and his wife.

to:

The [[HoYay somewhat ambiguous nature]] of Sam and Frodo's relationship has long been a topic of discussion among scholars and fans alike. Most people agree that the bond between them is very close, whether they consider it platonic or not; the two spend most of the story in each other's company, share many thoughtful conversations, trust each other with their lives, and end up living together even after Sam's marriage. Sam also sleeps with Frodo's head in his lap several times during their journey, kisses his hand or cheek on numerous occasions, and feels torn between his master and his wife.

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!!Frodo and Sam's relationship

The [[HoYay somewhat ambiguous nature]] of Sam and Frodo's relationship has long been a topic of discussion among scholars and fans alike. Most people agree that the bond between them is very close, whether they consider it platonic or not; the two spend most of the story together, share many conversations, and trust each other with their lives.

Despite the fact that [[Creator/JRRTolkien J. R. R. Tolkien]] described Frodo and Sam's relationship as brotherly, the bond between them raised a lot of questions and arguments about the range and meaning of eroticism in his works. Their gestures and acts towards each other were indeed intended to be interpreted as brotherly. However, there two relevant quotes that actually liken their relationship both to a marriage and to an animal partnership that bear some rather sexual implications. One appears in ''The Two Towers'', during the passage where Sam battles [[EldritchAbomination Shelob]] to save Frodo. There Sam is described as "''a small creature [...] that stands above its fallen mate.''"

The second is written in the epilogue ([[AllThereInTheManual published posthumously]]), where Sam tells his daughter that Celeborn lost his wife, Galadriel, when she sailed west, and that Celeborn told Aragorn that he hoped Aragorn would never be separated from Arwen in the same way. Elanor responds by likening Sam and Frodo's relationship to that of these two married couples. She tells Sam, "''He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad.''" Sam does not, as might be expected, correct her comments as a childish misunderstanding. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature; instead he says that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.


to:

!!Frodo and Sam's relationship

Sam: ho or no?

The [[HoYay somewhat ambiguous nature]] of Sam and Frodo's relationship has long been a topic of discussion among scholars and fans alike. Most people agree that the bond between them is very close, whether they consider it platonic or not; the two spend most of the story together, in each other's company, share many thoughtful conversations, and trust each other with their lives.

Despite the fact that [[Creator/JRRTolkien J. R. R. Tolkien]] described Frodo
lives, and end up living together even after Sam's marriage. Sam also sleeps with Frodo's head in his lap several times during their journey, kisses his hand on numerous occasions, and feels torn between his master and his wife.

Interestingly enough, Sam is the only one of the five prominently featured hobbits to show any attraction towards a female during the course of the novel. Frodo and Bilbo are never in any openly romantic relationships whatsoever; Merry and Pippin get hitched later in life to two hobbits we know nothing about. Sam's love for Rosie is, rather than being subtext, plainly obvious to himself and to everyone around him, to the point where even Rosie's father has caught on. He thinks about her wistfully as his strength wanes on the slopes of Mount Doom, and later blushes mightily when Frodo talks about how brave and famous he is in front of her. Eventually she bears him a grand total of thirteen children, and only after her death does he leave Middle-earth to see Frodo.

Nevertheless, many have commented that the term "friendship" isn't quite strong enough to describe Sam and Frodo. Some have called it brotherly; others speculate that Sam is a polyamorous bisexual, believe Frodo is [[SingleTargetSexuality Sam-sexual]], or ship [[{{OT3}} Sam/Frodo/Rosie]]. An example of a purely platonic
relationship is that of Frodo and Merry or Pippin, who are described as brotherly, Frodo's "closest friends" in FOTR, ch. 2. Note that this quote is from before the bond between Quest kicks off. Frodo has undoubtedly been fond of Sam for some time, as shown at the end of this chapter, but at this point Sam is still his slightly dim-witted gardener. Later, as the journey grows more arduous and the two of them raised a lot of questions are forced to go on alone, the already unusual master-servant relationship (Frodo is never shown giving Sam orders, and arguments about calls him a friend, which implies equal status) will shift into something more, well, [[AmbiguouslyGay ambiguous]] as Sam matures and takes on more responsibility.

Although any HoYay was certainly unintentional on Tolkien's part - being a devout Catholic writing in
the range 40s and meaning 50s, he would most likely have disapproved of eroticism in his works. Their gestures and acts towards each other were indeed intended to be interpreted as brotherly. However, queer relationships - there are two relevant quotes from the books that actually liken their relationship both to a marriage and to an animal partnership that bear some rather sexual implications.partnership. One appears in ''The Two Towers'', during the passage where Sam battles [[EldritchAbomination Shelob]] to save Frodo. There Sam is described as "''a small creature [...] that stands above its fallen mate.''"

The second is written in the epilogue ([[AllThereInTheManual published posthumously]]), where Sam tells his daughter that Celeborn lost his wife, Galadriel, when she sailed west, and that Celeborn told Aragorn that he hoped Aragorn would never be separated from Arwen in the same way. west. Elanor responds by likening Sam and Frodo's relationship to theirs, noting that of these two married couples. Frodo also left Sam behind when he departed for Valinor. She tells Sam, "''He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that [...] Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad.''" Sam does not, as might be expected, correct her comments as a childish misunderstanding. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature; instead he says that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.




[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather [[{{Fanfiction}} inspired by Nordic mythology]]. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}}; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.
* Tolkien was drawing on Norse sources, that is true, but hardly on Norse sources ''alone''. The One Ring was inspired at least as much by Plato's Ring of Gyges as by anything else. Gandalf may have some similarity to Odin, but the concept of a divine being who comes to earth to guide or save humanity, and who dies and is resurrected, is hardly unique to Norse myth.

to:

[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather [[{{Fanfiction}} fanfiction of a sort inspired by Nordic mythology]]. mythology, as well as various other sources. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}}; {{Nibelungenlied}} and Plato's Ring of Gyges; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.
* Tolkien was drawing on Norse sources, that is true, but hardly on Norse sources ''alone''. The One Ring was inspired at least as much by Plato's Ring of Gyges as by anything else. Gandalf may have some similarity to Odin, but the concept of a divine being who comes to earth to guide or save humanity, and who dies and is resurrected, is hardly unique to Norse myth.
elves.
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Added DiffLines:

The [[HoYay somewhat ambiguous nature]] of Sam and Frodo's relationship has long been a topic of discussion among scholars and fans alike. Most people agree that the bond between them is very close, whether they consider it platonic or not; the two spend most of the story together, share many conversations, and trust each other with their lives.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Despite the fact that [[Creator/JRRTolkien J. R. R. Tolkien]] described Frodo and Sam's relationship as brotherly, the bond between them raised a lot of questions and arguments about the range and meaning of eroticism in his works. Their gestures and acts towards each other were indeed intended to be interpreted as brotherly. However, there two relevant quotes that actually liken their relationship both to a marriage and to an animal partnership that bear some rather sexual implications. One appears in ''The Two Towers'', during the passage where Sam battles [[EldritchAbomination Shelob]] to save Frodo. There Sam is described as ''a small creature [...] that stands above its fallen mate''.

The second is written in the epilogue ([[AllThereInTheManual published posthumously]]), where Sam tells his daughter that Celeborn lost his wife and "treasure", Galadriel, when she sailed west, and that Celeborn told Aragorn that he hoped Aragorn would never be separated from Arwen in the same way. Elanor responds by likening Sam and Frodo's relationship to that of these two married couples. She tells Sam: ''He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad.'' Sam does not, as might be expected, correct her comments as a childish misunderstanding. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature; instead he says that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.


to:

Despite the fact that [[Creator/JRRTolkien J. R. R. Tolkien]] described Frodo and Sam's relationship as brotherly, the bond between them raised a lot of questions and arguments about the range and meaning of eroticism in his works. Their gestures and acts towards each other were indeed intended to be interpreted as brotherly. However, there two relevant quotes that actually liken their relationship both to a marriage and to an animal partnership that bear some rather sexual implications. One appears in ''The Two Towers'', during the passage where Sam battles [[EldritchAbomination Shelob]] to save Frodo. There Sam is described as ''a "''a small creature [...] that stands above its fallen mate''.

mate.''"

The second is written in the epilogue ([[AllThereInTheManual published posthumously]]), where Sam tells his daughter that Celeborn lost his wife and "treasure", wife, Galadriel, when she sailed west, and that Celeborn told Aragorn that he hoped Aragorn would never be separated from Arwen in the same way. Elanor responds by likening Sam and Frodo's relationship to that of these two married couples. She tells Sam: ''He Sam, "''He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad.'' ''" Sam does not, as might be expected, correct her comments as a childish misunderstanding. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature; instead he says that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


In spite of the fact that [[Creator/JRRTolkien Tolkien]] described Frodo and Sam's relationship as brotherly, the bond between them raised a lot of questions and arguments about the range and meaning of eroticism in his works. Their gestures and acts towards each other are indeed brotherly, even though many people misinterpret them due to different beliefs, culture and prejudices. The reader is not supposed to see something else in their connection, because, according to the WordOfGod, they are like brothers. But if the author didn't want to be other UnfortunateImplications, then why are there two relevant quotes that actually liken their relationship both to a marriage and to the animal partnership that exists for mating purposes? He could easily have used less ambiguous metaphors that bear no sexual implications whatsoever. One quote is remarked in the passage where Sam battles Shelob to save Frodo. There Sam is described as ''a small creature(...)that stands above its fallen mate''.

The other one is written in the epilogue, when Elanor, Sam's daughter, hears that Celeborn and Galadriel have separated and that Celeborn tells Aragorn that he hopes Aragorn will not be separated from Arwen like he has been from Galadriel. And Celeborn uses the word ''treasure'' to describe his true love, Galadriel. By picking up on the key word ''treasure'' Elanor's response likens Sam and Frodo's relationship to that of at least one, if not two, married couples (Celeborn/Galadriel and Aragorn/Arwen). Not only that, Celeborn's comment and feelings become understandable for Elanor through her father's feelings for Frodo, because she tells Sam these words: ''He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad. (...) For your treasure went too. I am glad Frodo of the Ring saw me, but I wish I could remember seeing him.'' Sam does not, as might be expected, [[UnfortunateImplications correct his daughter's comments as a childish misunderstanding]]. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature. He does not contest or modify the comparison at all; instead he tells Elanor that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.

So, no matter how much Tolkien denied it, he still framed Frodo and Sam's bond in terms of ''marriage and animal mating''.

to:

In spite of Despite the fact that [[Creator/JRRTolkien J. R. R. Tolkien]] described Frodo and Sam's relationship as brotherly, the bond between them raised a lot of questions and arguments about the range and meaning of eroticism in his works. Their gestures and acts towards each other are were indeed brotherly, even though many people misinterpret them due to different beliefs, culture and prejudices. The reader is not supposed to see something else in their connection, because, according to the WordOfGod, they are like brothers. But if the author didn't want intended to be other UnfortunateImplications, then why are interpreted as brotherly. However, there two relevant quotes that actually liken their relationship both to a marriage and to the an animal partnership that exists for mating purposes? He could easily have used less ambiguous metaphors that bear no some rather sexual implications whatsoever. implications. One quote is remarked appears in ''The Two Towers'', during the passage where Sam battles Shelob [[EldritchAbomination Shelob]] to save Frodo. There Sam is described as ''a small creature(...)that creature [...] that stands above its fallen mate''.

The other one second is written in the epilogue, when Elanor, Sam's daughter, hears epilogue ([[AllThereInTheManual published posthumously]]), where Sam tells his daughter that Celeborn lost his wife and Galadriel have separated "treasure", Galadriel, when she sailed west, and that Celeborn tells told Aragorn that he hopes hoped Aragorn will not would never be separated from Arwen like he has been from Galadriel. And Celeborn uses in the word ''treasure'' to describe his true love, Galadriel. By picking up on the key word ''treasure'' Elanor's response likens same way. Elanor responds by likening Sam and Frodo's relationship to that of at least one, if not two, these two married couples (Celeborn/Galadriel and Aragorn/Arwen). Not only that, Celeborn's comment and feelings become understandable for Elanor through her father's feelings for Frodo, because she couples. She tells Sam these words: Sam: ''He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad. (...) For your treasure went too. I am glad Frodo of the Ring saw me, but I wish I could remember seeing him.'' Sam does not, as might be expected, [[UnfortunateImplications correct his daughter's her comments as a childish misunderstanding]]. misunderstanding. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature. He does not contest or modify the comparison at all; nature; instead he tells Elanor says that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.

So, no matter how much Tolkien denied it, he still framed Frodo and Sam's bond in terms of ''marriage and animal mating''.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather [[{{Fanfiction}} inspired by Nordic mythology]]. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}}; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.

to:

[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather [[{{Fanfiction}} inspired by Nordic mythology]]. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}}; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.elves.
* Tolkien was drawing on Norse sources, that is true, but hardly on Norse sources ''alone''. The One Ring was inspired at least as much by Plato's Ring of Gyges as by anything else. Gandalf may have some similarity to Odin, but the concept of a divine being who comes to earth to guide or save humanity, and who dies and is resurrected, is hardly unique to Norse myth.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
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[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather [[{{Fanfiction}} inspired by Nordic mythology]]. The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}}; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.

to:

[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather [[{{Fanfiction}} inspired by Nordic mythology]]. There are too many references to ignore: The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}}; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
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So, no matter how much Tolkien denied it, he still framed Frodo and Sam's bond in terms of ''marriage and animal mating''.

to:

So, no matter how much Tolkien denied it, he still framed Frodo and Sam's bond in terms of ''marriage and animal mating''.mating''.

!!Interpretation

[[WordofGod The Lord of the Rings is no allegory of any kind]], but rather [[{{Fanfiction}} inspired by Nordic mythology]]. The One Ring is from {{Nibelungenlied}}; Gandalf is {{Merlin}} ''and'' Odin who were powerful sorcerers and made sacrifices to be reborn; when the elves travel across the ocean they go to Tir Na Nog, which lies to the west and to which you can only go with the elves.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Namespace stuff change.


In spite of the fact that [[JRRTolkien Tolkien]] described Frodo and Sam's relationship as brotherly, the bond between them raised a lot of questions and arguments about the range and meaning of eroticism in his works. Their gestures and acts towards each other are indeed brotherly, even though many people misinterpret them due to different beliefs, culture and prejudices. The reader is not supposed to see something else in their connection, because, according to the WordOfGod, they are like brothers. But if the author didn't want to be other UnfortunateImplications, then why are there two relevant quotes that actually liken their relationship both to a marriage and to the animal partnership that exists for mating purposes? He could easily have used less ambiguous metaphors that bear no sexual implications whatsoever. One quote is remarked in the passage where Sam battles Shelob to save Frodo. There Sam is described as ''a small creature(...)that stands above its fallen mate''.
The other one is written in the epilogue, when Elanor, Sam's daughter, hears that Celeborn and Galadriel have separated and that Celeborn tells Aragorn that he hopes Aragorn will not be separated from Arwen like he has been from Galadriel. And Celeborn uses the word ''treasure'' to describe his true love, Galadriel. By picking up on the key word ''treasure'' Elanor's response likens Sam and Frodo's relationship to that of at least one, if not two, married couples (Celeborn/Galadriel and Aragorn/Arwen). Not only that, Celeborn's comment and feelings become understandable for Elanor through her father's feelings for Frodo, because she tells Sam these words: ''He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad. (...) For your treasure went too. I am glad Frodo of the Ring saw me, but I wish I could remember seeing him.'' Sam does not, as might be expected, [[UnfortunateImplications correct his daughter's comments as a childish misunderstanding]]. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature. He does not contest or modify the comparison at all; instead he tells Elanor that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.
So, no matter how much Tolkien denied it, he still framed Frodo and Sam's bond in terms of ''marriage and animal mating''.

to:

In spite of the fact that [[JRRTolkien [[Creator/JRRTolkien Tolkien]] described Frodo and Sam's relationship as brotherly, the bond between them raised a lot of questions and arguments about the range and meaning of eroticism in his works. Their gestures and acts towards each other are indeed brotherly, even though many people misinterpret them due to different beliefs, culture and prejudices. The reader is not supposed to see something else in their connection, because, according to the WordOfGod, they are like brothers. But if the author didn't want to be other UnfortunateImplications, then why are there two relevant quotes that actually liken their relationship both to a marriage and to the animal partnership that exists for mating purposes? He could easily have used less ambiguous metaphors that bear no sexual implications whatsoever. One quote is remarked in the passage where Sam battles Shelob to save Frodo. There Sam is described as ''a small creature(...)that stands above its fallen mate''.
mate''.
The other one is written in the epilogue, when Elanor, Sam's daughter, hears that Celeborn and Galadriel have separated and that Celeborn tells Aragorn that he hopes Aragorn will not be separated from Arwen like he has been from Galadriel. And Celeborn uses the word ''treasure'' to describe his true love, Galadriel. By picking up on the key word ''treasure'' Elanor's response likens Sam and Frodo's relationship to that of at least one, if not two, married couples (Celeborn/Galadriel and Aragorn/Arwen). Not only that, Celeborn's comment and feelings become understandable for Elanor through her father's feelings for Frodo, because she tells Sam these words: ''He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad. (...) For your treasure went too. I am glad Frodo of the Ring saw me, but I wish I could remember seeing him.'' Sam does not, as might be expected, [[UnfortunateImplications correct his daughter's comments as a childish misunderstanding]]. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature. He does not contest or modify the comparison at all; instead he tells Elanor that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.
insights.
So, no matter how much Tolkien denied it, he still framed Frodo and Sam's bond in terms of ''marriage and animal mating''.
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* "Framed it in terms of"? When you have to look through the whole book to find these total of two wordings that could also be interpreted without any such implications, especially the first one? No text can survive such a determined search for unintended meanings.

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The other one is written in the epilogue, when Elanor, Sam's daughter, hears that Celeborn and Galadriel have separated and that Celeborn tells Aragorn that he hopes Aragorn will not be separated from Arwen like he has been from Galadriel. And Celeborn uses the word ''treasure'' to describe his true love, Galadriel. By picking up on the key word ''treasure'' Elanor's response likens Sam and Frodo's relationship to that of at least one, if not two, married couples( Celeborn/Galadriel and Aragorn/Arwen). Not only that, Celeborn's comment and feelings become understandable for Elanor through her father's feelings for Frodo, because she tells Sam these words: ''He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad. (...) For your treasure went too. I am glad Frodo of the Ring saw me, but I wish I could remember seeing him.'' Sam does not, as might be expected, [[UnfortunateImplications correct his daughter's comments as a childish misunderstanding]]. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature. He does not contest or modify the comparison at all; instead he tells Elanor that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.
So, no matter how much Tolkien denied it, he still framed Frodo and Sam's bond in terms of ''marriage and animal mating''.

to:

The other one is written in the epilogue, when Elanor, Sam's daughter, hears that Celeborn and Galadriel have separated and that Celeborn tells Aragorn that he hopes Aragorn will not be separated from Arwen like he has been from Galadriel. And Celeborn uses the word ''treasure'' to describe his true love, Galadriel. By picking up on the key word ''treasure'' Elanor's response likens Sam and Frodo's relationship to that of at least one, if not two, married couples( Celeborn/Galadriel couples (Celeborn/Galadriel and Aragorn/Arwen). Not only that, Celeborn's comment and feelings become understandable for Elanor through her father's feelings for Frodo, because she tells Sam these words: ''He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad. (...) For your treasure went too. I am glad Frodo of the Ring saw me, but I wish I could remember seeing him.'' Sam does not, as might be expected, [[UnfortunateImplications correct his daughter's comments as a childish misunderstanding]]. Neither does he explain to Elanor that he is in fact married to Rose Cotton, or that the two relationships are of a different nature. He does not contest or modify the comparison at all; instead he tells Elanor that his sadness has lessened and confides that he hopes to see Frodo again, thereby implicitly validating his daughter's insights.
So, no matter how much Tolkien denied it, he still framed Frodo and Sam's bond in terms of ''marriage and animal mating''. mating''.

* "Framed it in terms of"? When you have to look through the whole book to find these total of two wordings that could also be interpreted without any such implications, especially the first one? No text can survive such a determined search for unintended meanings.

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