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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Probably should keep it to myself, but I preferred the subtitle: "Fear the finger!" more...


Since the Edgeworth game is a spinoff/interquel, should it have its own page or should we just lump it in with the rest of the AA games? I ask because Tales of Symphonia and its sequel/spinoff Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World were split, and I'm not sure what the consensus on such a thing is.


Since in the fifth game Phoenix isn't the lawyer I think the title should be shorted to just Ace Attorney

Man Called True: I don't agree with that, as that title has little to do with the series... but you raise a point. Maybe changing the page's name to "Gyakuten Saiban" (the Japanese name) would be a wise move. Then again, the third game won't be out in America until September...

Fast Eddie: Hating that idea. You want the English translation of "Gyakuten Saiban"?

"Do not read this one."

Andyroid: Fifth one? They're only up to the fourth. And they could just call it (Insert Whatever Name They Give For the Main Character of GS4 Here): Ace Attorney or something.

Morgan Wick: Wikipedia calls it Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney but I don't know why.

Jisu: Ace Attorney has been the Series Franchise's official shortened title since JFA. Personally, I think we should keep this page and make Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney when that game comes out next month, as we've done with other distant sequel spinoffs like Digimon Adventure 02 and Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Neko Incardine: It is my opinion, the game having been out for a while, that the tropes are not distinct enough between the two for them to be mentioned separately - especially given that by this logic, Miles Edgeworth will deserve yet ANOTHER article for the announced (actual!) fifth game, currently translated as Perfect Prosecutor (which has a subtle bit of Unexpected Genre Change). One larger list with the examples from each entry seems better here. The difference between this and the areforementioned examples is that Apollo Justice really does come across as a sequel to the previous games, and makes more sense to some extent when held as a whole, rather than as a unit like those two.

Rebochan: At the moment, we need a definitive answer on the question of whether to move all of the content and subpages to articles named "Ace Attorney", or move the one single Character Sheet and Fanfic page over to this one. Because for the time being, the wiki software is causing extra pages to start sprouting. Also, if this article is supposed to be the main page, the introduction needs to be changed to cover all four games - right now its just discussing the first game. I already tried to move the Character Sheet, only for someone to throw up a bunch of screwed-up redirects to try and preserve the Ace Attorney page, despite the lack of an actual Ace Attorney *article*. I don't feel that I can go through with fixing anything until there's consensus on where the pages go.


Fanti Sci: Quick question - why are all the references on the website to Ho Yay regarding Phoenix Wright being deleted? Agree or disagree with it, it's pretty valid to comment on it, IMHO. Some of the dialogue and scenarios strongly suggest that the creators were either pandering to the Boys Love fanbase, or just Playing with a Trope.

The person who had been deleting the Ho Yay references: I'd like to start by apologizing... didn't think about leaving a note in the discussion page. As for the Ho Yay... I really can't see it. The relationship between Phoenix and Edgeworth struck me as a close friendship (and that's after Edgeworth had the change of attitude), mixed with a bit of admiration for each other. Nothing more than "just good friends", which is what the trope about Ho Yay says. If anything, I'd classify it under Heterosexual Life-Partners. That said, maybe somebody could put here some of those parts that supposedly have subtext.

Fanti Sci: Been a while since I played PW. The scenes I can remember are Edgeworth's line that Phoenix causes him to have "unnecessary...feelings," the fact that Phoenix has based his life's vocation on tracking down Edgeworth (did anyone else think "stalker?"), Phoenix's protective attitude to Edgeworth in "Farewell, My Turnabout," and the fact that Phoenix behaved like a jilted boyfriend regarding Edgeworth's disappearance in PW 2. All of them have perfectly sound, non-romantic explanations, of course, but I know when Edgeworth's line about "feelings" came up, my first thought was "did he just say that?" Like I said - looks like someone was Playing with a Trope. And Ho Yay doesn't necessarily mean a canon relationship - just that the fans can find the grounds for one if they tilt their heads and squint a bit.

Cromage: The hallmark of Ho Yay (as opposed to Heterosexual Life-Partners) I feel is that the characters involved aren't "just friends." There's usually a rivalry factor going on, or some sort of other tension that leads to a perceived romantic tension ala Slap-Slap-Kiss.

Edgeworth is clearly a rival character in the first game and associated manga; I've always felt that the reason why they didn't play this up *more* in the games is that it would lead to a repetitive plotline (the important thing to remember is that in the original Gyakuten Saiban, the game ended with the idea that Edgeworth and Phoenix's rivalry would continue, which made the DS-only fifth case even more confusing). Anyway, they manage to keep the tension in both the second and third games decently enough, even after introducing a girlfriend for Phoenix out of nowhere)

Rebochan: Personally, while there's an easily understandable way to take a lot of Phoenix and Edgeworth's dialog and make it into Ho Yay, it's also perfectly valid to look at without any yaoi overtones. I've always gotten the impression that Capcom loves to screw with us on that, hence why I added the Ship Tease tropes a little while ago. Actually, the increasing number of Ho Yay jokes in the games makes me wonder if there's actually more in the English version than the Japanese version.


Cromage: Removed reference to the von Karmas under Control Freak; look under the discussion page there for reasoning


Redkun: Just out of curiosity, what is the "one particular Narm" referenced in the final paragraph of the opening description?

Kayube: Probably "The miracle never happen" from the second game.

—-

Neko Incardine: The Chessmaster listing shows Phoenix being pretty expert at this art... When out of player control. Could this be an indirect form of Cutscene Power to the Max as well?

—- Really I'd say Dahlia and Kristoph go under evil is sexy and both have good twins with Iris and Klavier respectively. Not what I'd call a full inversion of Beauty equals goodness(which are very rare) with handsome men like Phoenix Wright, Apollo Justice and Edgeworth. There are ugly villains as well.

I feel Franziska fits Mad scientests beautiful daughter. As she is more concerned about Edgeworth(who her father despised) then her dad and she gradually befriends Phoenix another enemy of her dad.

The Yandere entry implies that it describes most of the female killers, but I really think only Dahlia qualifies. AA:Dee Vasquez killed Jack Hammer accidentally and tried to cover it up, JFA: Mimi Miney was desperate to conceal her true identity, and AJ:Alita Tiala feared for her life if the Kitakis discovered that she was trying to marry her way into the family fortune. None of them really fit the definition.
  • Rebochan: Merely wishing for survival shouldn't be enough to knock Alita off the list when she still fits the trope. She plays up a Yamato Nadeshiko personality while hiding a cold hearted killer underneath. Even Dahlia killed more out of necessity than pure malice. You are right about the other two though - none of them even come close to the Yamato Nadeshiko personality that Yanderes appear to possess.
  • Not going to get into an edit war with you, but that's not really the definition of the term. According to the page, a Yandere is "literally crazy about someone" — normally with love, but in Dahlia's case with hatred for Mia Fey. Alita doesn't care about anyone but herself, and she only kills Dr. Meraktis to save her own hide. Come to think of it, that would make Franziska something of a Yandere as well, although unlike most examples she's able to think and act rationally despite her obsession.

Rebochan: I took out Bloodless Carnage because it is easily proven wrong. There's plenty of blood...though it's a bit muted in many of them. And there are cases where there's no blood when you'd expect it, but many of these instances actually had a different cause of death than earlier established that would either produce less blood or establish a way to ensure the player never sees the blood because the murder scene was altered.

In the character page, how about a list of tropes for each case? I know it's a little unusual, but these are unusual games, and it would help take clutter off the main page.


Where... where did the article go? There's no record of it being cleared in the page history, but for some reason, it's gone?
  • Lime: Dunno, but some moron went and replaced it with the character sheet. What the hell?
    • I've worked on wikis before, but to be honest, this site's system confuses the heck out of me. Does this wiki have any sort of option to view old versions of the page? Or rollbacks, or anything? Is there someone who we can flag down for help, or at least investigate what caused the disappearing article in the first place?
      • Lime: You can look at the page history to see older versions of the article, but unfortunately it doesn't list all of the edits HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I apparently can't read the word "all." Don't know about the other stuff; I'm still not completely used to using TV Tropes myself.
  • Mouser: Whoever just put the page back Stealthyboy deserves love.
    • Stealthyboy: Thanks, it took awhile, and its still far from perfect. I didn't put in italics or bolds, and the picture's not up. If anyone wants to put their hand to that, be my guest. I'm off to bed!
    • Rebochan: Thanks for your hard work. Apparently there's pages all over the site getting eaten like this one was...hopefully you don't have to do it *again*.
      • *high fives Stealthyboy!*

Idler: Where did it say that Gumshoe is retired by the time of Apollo Justice? I'm fairly sure that's not true.
Rebochan: Is Franziska really a Tsundere? Because I have trouble thinking of any moment in the series where she showed an ounce of the "Dere"....

Game: At the end of JFA, there is a secret ending that occurs if you give Fraziska's whip to Edgeworth after the case is over, where Edgey returns the whip to her in the airport as she is leaving the country, followed by her breaking down and crying. Come to think about it, it isn't really very Dere of her, but I am sure that is what the source for her being called sometimes Dere is.
Mike: removed the following:
  • The Khan: If the criminals don't bust out the Big No when they're finally cornered, bets are they'll do this.
Reason: It does not sound like an example of the Camera Trick in question. If I am mistaken (I don't have the games), and they DO actually scream at the sky while the camera looks down and spins while pulling away, please add it back as "Skyward Scream"
I readded Dahlia to the Yandere entry, see the Yandere Discussion page for my justification.
Vampire Buddha: Pulled natter (00:29 GMT, 6/5/2009)

    Natter 


@Ho Yay in the article: ...When Word Of God was asked what kinda of girl Edgeworth likes, he did reply that "He doesn't like girls". I don't want to go all Wikipedia over it, but... can I get some sauce on this? I'm really curious.


  • Eponymous Kid: For the record, urutapu, Caphi used the Japanese names because he's hardcore weeaboo like that. It's just one of his things.


I don't think the Guide Dang It regarding JFA case 2 is quite fair — for one, the relevant difference between American and British cars is explicitly mentioned in the game seconds before you have to make the relevant Objection, so previous player knowledge isn't required. What more, we can't really blame this on the designers of the game, as this puzzle makes much more sense as originally designed, where the game takes place in Japan, cars are like similar to the British version, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone over 6 years old who doesn't know that in most places elsewhere in the world cars are different, and exactly how.