Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Triple Factorial: After seeing & hearing the commentary on this Let's Play of Lotus Land Story, I almost want to say that Deathbombing is an Ascended Glitch or something. I don't want to add it without some verification though, so I figured I'd mention the possibility here before I do so. Does anyone else think this or am I just full of it?
  • While my knowledge is somewhat lacking of the PC-98 era, the explanation of the games' plots only applies to Embodiment of Scarlet Devil, Perfect Cherry Blossom, and Imperishable Night out of the Windows era. Phantasmagoria of Flower View has a different number of (seemingly random) stages, and both Mountain of Faith and Subterranean Animism actually involve the protagonist knowing where she's going from the beginning—or at least Mountain of Faith does, while Subterranean Animism shakes the formula in other ways. Three out of six isn't "nearly all," though this would have been true had it been said before the last three games. On a tangential note, it is now properly stated that the third boss (in the three games where the formula applies) points toward the Big Bad, and not the fourth.
    • If memory serves, the crew has no idea where to go in Subterranean Animism, only that the problem is underground. It isn't until the meet Yuugi, the standard third boss character that they're pointed in the direction of the Palace of the Earth Spirits, so SA follows the pattern as well.

Madacaek: What's the origin of the article image? Is there a higher res version anywhere and if so, does anyone have it?

  • This Troper notes that Tou Hou is not accurate at all, and would like to suggest that this article be renamed Touhou Project, which is not only the technical name for the series but also fits into a proper Wiki Word.
    • Seconded, besides ?? touhou is a single word that means "oriental" or "eastern".

  • why is Touhou an Audience Sucker Punch? Just because the characters are agile and dodge each others attacks doesn't mean they're not still fighting.
    • Seconded. Audience Sucker Punch refers to the fact that something is going on, but the audience can't see it. This is mostly not true of Touhou, unless you happen to believe (as some do) that danmaku is merely a visual analogue for an invisible battle of elemental forces.

fyi, Aya Syameimaru is not a "fan-nominated" crow girl. She's listed in the Phantasmagoria of Flower View instruction manual as a Crow Tengu (see, and says she's shocked at seeing animal abuse because of her crowness in Yukari's interview from Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red ( ).

  • touhou doesn't fit the Serious Business trope. The idea behind spell card rules was so that humans and Youkai could resolve disputes without destroying the border between Gensokyo and the real world. i.e. Reimu Hakurei is the one who maintains and manages the border, so if she dies, the border ends up falling apart and there's no more gensokyo for any of the Youkai there. Nevertheless, they still want to be able to fight her if they want something from her, so they follow spell card rules. Not following Spell Card Rules would end up with Gensokyo ceasing to exist, and since this is a Clap Your Hands If You Believe scenario, it would probably also result in a lot of Youkai ceasing to exist as well.

Kimiko Muffin: True ... I suppose the "Youkai 'extermination'" bit falls under Non-Lethal K.O., then ...
  • By thinking of how friendly both sights treat each other and the fact that there are no injuries during those battles, you could also go with Go Karting with Bowser
    • Wraith_Magus: Go-Karting with Bowser refers to when fierce rivals will play a friendly game with one another before going back to "fierce" rivalry. Since most of this stuff is Defeat Means Friendship on the first try, it's not really rivalry. If you want to put a Go-Karting with Bowser refernce in, it should be about something that characters like Kaguya and Mokou having more friendly competition once in a while. (I'm sure you could find a Fan Fic somewhere showing that to throw in if you wanted.) Non-Lethal K.O. is a good description of the Spellcard system.

Sparrowhawk: For Bonus Level Of Hell, the trope specifically refers to going to Hell and back, so it doesn't apply to the Extra stage. It does, however, apply to Perfect Cherry Blossom, Po FV, and at least two of the PC-98 games. Added Bonus Dungeon and Bonus Boss to pick up the slack.

Kimiko Muffin: On the subject of The Wesley: I may just be hanging out with the wrong Touhou fans, but I haven't really seen any of the "hate" for the Watatsuki sisters. I also have trouble seeing them as fitting many other of the other aspects of The Wesley; it isn't a case of them being "dragged into the spotlight just because the author likes them," they were created specifically to be central characters of Silent Sinner in Blue and Cage in Lunatic Runagate in the first place, so it makes sense that they'd be showing up quite a bit in those (at least in that respect), they haven't shown up at all in any other Touhou games or media, and I find it highly doubtful that anyone has actually left the Touhou fandom (or at least, the series hasn't started "hemorrhaging fans" as the Wesley article states).

Hourai Rabbit: Certain imageboards are more vocal about the subject than others (the Pooshlmer board comes to mind), mainly stemming from the fact that Watatsuki no Yorihime is able to upstage or utterly annihilate many of the fan favorites and generally agreed "powerful" characters. Blade prisons, summoning the power of the Japanese gods (and doing it better than Reimu out of nowhere), actually finding a weakness in Sakuya's time-stopping power, and EATING Marisa's magical bullets, no one knows what new trick she'll pull out next. Needless to say this can grate on peoples' nerves a fair bit because power levels are Serious Business. I personally see it as more of a repeated use of the Worf Effect combined with Internet Backdraft against Aki Eda and a dash of Mary Sue traits. There was also an image nitpicking all of the "canonical" errors in the party scene at the Scarlet Devil Mansion (HUEG Chen! Hahaha...)
  • Just sayin': I'm thinking it was also partially Mook Chivalry that took place here (might be justified though), Yorihime is sure stronger than every single of her opponents, but not all of them at once.

Kimiko Muffin: Yeah, now that I've actually conversed with some of these people, I'd say they're closer to straight-up Mary Sue than The Wesley. I mean, to me, it made sense that they'd be God Mode Sues ... at least, as far as that goes ...

  • It's my experience that most of us have too many other things to spend our time obsessing over. That is, I've encountered only apathy (and perhaps mild disappointment) concerning Silent Sinner in Blue. With a cast (and a fandom) like this, it's easy to ignore any character you don't especially like, and the characters in question don't even appear in the games.

Kalle: I have officially made a page for MAIKAZE's Fanime! Here. Help fleshing it out and clarifying / changing things would be much appreciated!
Shouldn't Convection Schmonvection be added due to A.) flame shots and B.) the Blazing Hells and C.) NUCLEAR FIRE. I mean, you're grazing SUNS.

Kimiko Muffin: Add it, then. This is a wiki.
Ace Of Scarabs: That's odd, the Fetish Fuel page for Touhou isn't in the little quick-links at the top of this page (or the other Touhou sub-pages).

Kalle: Because the Fetish Fuel section doesn't have an icon anymore, I think. I miss the little Catwoman head. :(

C Banana: Why did the picture quote get deleted? I found it funny.
Reimu: Would it be all right to compile a list of some of Touhou's better-known memes (i.e. yukkuris) under the Memetic Mutation entry? Also, I'm fairly certain the thing about the D&D cards isn't really memetic.

Ace Of Scarabs: Go for it, I'll put a redlink for your page here.

Reimu: Okay, Memetic Mutation/Touhou has been unofficially launched. However, it still needs some more examples and some cleaning up, so if anyone can help out, feel free. Additionally, it probably needs a better introductory sentence.
Is it pronounced "toh-hoh" or "too-hoo?"

copycatzero: Um... do we really know enought about Unthinkable Natural Law to label it "an addon to Scarlet Weather Rhapsody"? That DOES seem to be the current theory being knocked around, but unless someone has an OFFICIAL statement that that's what it is, it seems pretty premature to add that Expansion Pack entry. I take it back. It says it right there on Tasogare's page that Scarlet Weather Rhapsody is required for installation...
  • Flandreization Flanderization: Fanon is particularly fond of this. Several characters are commonly reduced to a single character quirk which may or may not have been a major part of their character in the original games. Reimu is a lazy bum, Marisa is nothing but a thief, Alice is a lonely and creepy Yandere, Yuyuko eats everything in sight, Suika does nothing but drink, Suwako goes ribbit-ribbit...

fhqwhgads: The only one I see there that's not in an official game is Alice being a Yandere. Reimu is indeed lazy, Marisa is a kleptomaniac, Yuyuko eats everything in sight in Imperishable Night. Suika has a bottomless gourd of sake, and Suwako has frog imagery.

Anon Editor: Flanderization doesn't mean creating new character traits, it means emphasizing one trait to such an extent that it dwarfs everything else and changes the character. Reimu's lazy, but not only lazy; Marisa steals but that's not all she ever does, Yuyuko had one game full of eating jokes compared to all her other appearances, Suika has more to her than her undeniable constant drinking, and Suwako, for all her frog imagery, has never once ribbited in official material.
Kalle: Regarding the issue of what happened to the giant shadow thing, apparently it was a giant action figure built by Nitori. Or at least, that's what people who've beat the game are saying.

Wraith_Magus: I had to remove the following:
  • Lawful Evil (Most youkai fit this trope in some form as they will obey the rules of the Spell Card system, but they also live only for themselves and see humans as prey.)
This is why Alignments need to be kept out of pages like this... OK, someone needs to brush up on their understanding of both Touhou and Order Versus Chaos. Let's deal with "Evil" first; Virtually none of the characters in Touhou see humans as nothing but prey, even the canon work that most villifies youkai says they've actually turned into a pretty nice bunch during the time period that the games take place, and that she hopes to make friends with many of them. Even if some of the AlternativeCharacterInterpretations in the Fan Fics might portray them as somewhat unpredictable, the canon world is a relatively peaceful and A World Half Full place where just about every youkai is Good All Along. Regarding "Lawful", following a code of conduct in and of itself does not make someone lawful (how can someone be Chaotic Good if they do not follow a code of conduct that would make them good?), especially when it is a Restraining Bolt which is pushed upon most of the characters whether they want it or not. In actuality, many of the youkai take advantage of this to pick fights and cause chaos simply because they are bored. That is textbook chaotic behavior, to the point of Chaotic Stupid if it were not for the damage-controlling properties of the spellcard system. In truth, the overwhelming majority of Touhou characters are morally neutral (see Grey and Grey Morality), and many are either Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral, depending on whether they proactively cause a ruckus, or simply react when one spills over onto their lap. Only a few characters (Shiki Eiki, Youmu) can be considered clearly lawful, and I can think of no character that can be definitively declared "good", and maybe only Rumia can be definitively "evil" in the series.
  • Umm, killing a deity and using it's power to cause mass destruction is not Evil? Although Utsuho might just be tempted to do it, something extreme like that is evil.
    • There's no indication that said deity was actually killed (as opposed to dying of natural causes), and even if it was, Okuu wasn't the one that killed it. She never actually got around to causing any mass destruction, and it's debatable if she actually realized the amount of destruction that turning Gensokyo into a second hell would entail.

    Flame War over Fan Dumb 

Wraith_Magus: I don't think Meimu has ever been seriously considered to have her own role in a game. If the Mo F and SA thing was where people were suggesting ahead of the game's release that it might have Phantasm Bosses, it's Epileptic Trees. If it's after the game has come out, people have played it, and suddenly, a good chunk of players start believing that something's there when it isn't, it's Urban Legend of Zelda / Schala Lives.
  • I've heard the fans were saying for sure that Meimu's gonna be in. There's even concept art on Gelbooru. Which Trope fits to describe things that are claimed to be included and simply get Jossed?
    • If it's something that's supposedly going to happen, then it's Epileptic Trees. If it's a supposed easter egg in a game already released (I.E. hidden content that's just bogus), then it's an Urban Legend of Zelda. As a total aside, ...Or So I Heard is meant for when you want to deny that you actually read/watched/played a given work (because it's humiliating or just plain porn), not when it's an actual rumor.

copycatzero: Any thoughts about taking some of the broad character-related tropes that are on the main page (like Really 700 Years Old and You Gotta Have Blue Hair) and moving them to a "general character tropes" entry on the character page? Not that the character page isn't long enough already (and only prone to get longer as new characters are introduced and people find things to say about old characters), but it still does seem a little weird to have those character tropes on the main page.
  • Okay, so, it's been two weeks since I posted this and no one has deigned to respond. I'm just going to go ahead and do it, and if the rest of you don't like it, you can just put it back the way it was...

TsundeRay: Really? Most fans I know don't bother to buy the games (some even outright opposing buying them), with one going as far as to say "who the hell buys a Touhou game?" It's as if being a true Touhou fan means owning no legit copies of the games.
  • copycatzero: I did see an argument on that subject the other day (on some random Touhou-related YouTube video's page, surprise surprise), so I can vouch for there actually being an opposing side to that particular point. For my part, I'd like to consider myself a fan even though I don't legitimately own any of the games, but, as a weak defense, that's because I suck at them (can't even get past stage 3 on Normal without continuing in any of the ones I've tried) and keep quitting in frustration...

  • Someone deleted the entry about "Gengetsu Rape Time" because it's supposedly a fan nickname. I thought that was the actual name of the spellcard.
    • Copycat Zero: Not to sound rude, but do you honestly think either Amusement Makers or ZUN would have named a spellcard that? Besides, we're not even sure what the spellcard would be called, since there's no entry on Touhou Wiki for it. Actually... for that matter, Lotus Land Story shouldn't even have HAD spellcards, because the system was implemented with Embodiment of Scarlet Devil. So, well, in the end, the entry is wrong on a number of levels... (not that I was the one who deleted it).
      • Do I think that the people who added penis missiles to SA Extra would name a card "Gengetsu Rape Time"? yes.
      • Hylarn: Which is itself named Rekindled "The Embers of Love". And, honestly, it only looks like that if you're looking for it.

Kalle: Double Spoiler. Sequel to Shoot The Bullet. Looks like Aya's trying to reclaim her place as ZUN's girlfriend! 8Db (kidding, kidding~)