Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Seth Kyros: The character Igor from this game is pretty much some kind of mentor to the main character, it doesn’t really have much to do with the trope The Igor. Sure, he has the name, but that's it.
Eakin: Not so sure Dysfunction Junction applies here, sure some people (mostly the persona users) have traumatic back stories, but a number of the social link people have problems like "Have a crush on my teacher," or "Plays MMOs because my job sucks" which aren't quite on the same level.

Also I nominate Mitsuru for a subentry under Break the Cutie

Specialist290: Point taken about Dysfunction Junction (I copied the original entry from the article; what's on that page was "boiled down" by another editor). However, I think it still fits overall, since there are a lot of messed-up people in this game. I'll fix it to "most of the Social Links."

<cut a bunch of useless discussion-type stuff since I realized you had already said the same thing in fewer words. ~Spec >

As for the other: You can go ahead and add it yourself if you want; no one's stopping you. (I would add it myself, since I think I know what you're getting at, but I'm a tad lazy tired right now and not really wanting to make any major (or semi-major) edits at the moment.)

Uknown Troper: This troper was the one who made the game's entry under Dysfunction Junction. I justify them thus: They're not major issues — but everyone, and I mean everyone has got one. Your teacher? Alchoholic. Leader of the sports team? Problems with motivation and a lack of direction. School's star athlete? Father's dead, he has to provide for his mother and five siblings or something. Old monk in the bar? Bitter and estranged from his family. And so on, and so on. At the time when Junpei said (I believe) "Oh, and my dad is an alcoholic" just suddenly out of the blue while discussing Nyx I actually groaned audibly. It was about the only thing that was missing.

I mean, come on. Name a major character or social link, any character (except Pharos). I think I've played enough of the social links to have figured it out, even if I didn't actually finish them all.

Eakin: Well, yeah, they do all have problems, but it would be tough to write ten scenes for each character if they didn't have SOMETHING to frame the narrative arc. They'd all turn out like the Devil social link, with the corrupt businessman lecturing MC for 10 days about how to screw people over and take their money. I guess having 80% of the links feature tragic backgrounds is enough to qualify for the entry.

I scoffed at that alcoholic bit too, though. Someone on the writing staff has some major father issues they need to work out.

Rebochan: Even the Devil Social Link had the problem of having grown up poor and loathed and instead of turning into a happy success story just became super rich and incredibly bitter. Though I was amused that his was the only one that didn't involve him changing for the better.

As for Junpei, I was just bothered that it came out of nowhere like that and never got addressed again. I was under the impression his parents were both dead just because he never once mentioned them until that scene. Kind of a nuisance when everyone else's issues were explored more thoroughly. Even the dog got more backstory than Junpei.
universalperson: For Yukari being the First Girl, the game eventually reveals that's not the case. Also, for the record, in a case of sheer irony, Aigis and the main character have the same Japanese voice actors for Azel and Edge in Panzer Dragoon Saga, Azel being kind of like Aigis. Furthermore, the main character's Japanese voice actor eventually does a role in this game that is extremely similar to [[Neon Genesis Evangelion Kaworu Nagisa}..., who had the same Japanese voice actor. Coincidence?

Uknown Troper: This troper, somewhat annoyed with that fact, actually added Aegis under the love interests tab through the Strangled by the Red String trope (with the addition of "bitter, me? perish the thought")... He removed it immediately afterwards. It was a bit too much of a Take That!.

Specialist290: I was mainly referring to the fact that Yukari's the first female character the player is introduced to in the game, rather than the first one the character actually met chronologically. Point taken, though—I suppose you could say it's Left Hanging exactly which of the two is the First Girl, even in the game itself.
  • Incidentally, it just occurred to me that it can also be considered inverted, after a fashion: Aigis is the last girl you talk to during "Operation Babe Hunt."

Specialist290: Incidentally, does anyone know how to align the pic to the right of the page instead of the left?

Uknown Troper: I consider Ryoji a non-example of affably evil — because he isn't in any way evil; the destruction he causes is due to his nature. He's, after all, unwilling to go through with The End of the World as We Know It.

Specialist290: I agree w/ you there (wasn't me that added that one). Personally, though, I'd rather change the reference than outright delete the entry, but I can't think of a good trope to match it to... I'll see what a little browsing turns up. EDIT: I'm reminded of Total Recall for some reason... Maybe a little judicious searching will turn up something.

Specialist290 (again): Changed it to Amnesiac Dissonance (my hunch was right). I rewrote the entry, then decided that the full version belonged better on that page, so I overwrote the original P3 entry there and typed up a new summary on this one.

Uknown Troper: Fair enough (I wrote the original entry). I put a few spoiler tags on it, though.

Specialist290: Ah. Sorry about that.
Tanto: So, um, shouldn't there be some discussion of this game as a game? I've heard this game is really good, but the main body of the entry doesn't even mention what genre it is, much less anything more detailed; just the plot. (It's a dungeon-crawler, from what I've been able to determine in my admittedly incurious observations.)

Specialist290: *smacks self on forehead* I'll get around to that... Yeah, you're half right; "dungeon crawler" is fairly accurate, at least for a good part of the game.
Redkun: I'm so tempted to delete Guide Dang It! (Try fusing a Lilith with Mabufudyne or Alice with Megido without consulting a guide. Go on, I dare you.) because I found it incredibly easy to do both of the above sans guide. You need to understand how the fusion system works but everything you need is spelled out in the in-game tutorials or is All There in the Manual. How much of a challenge did the Lilith/Alice tasks pose to other people?

Specialist290: To tell the truth, some of the earlier fusions were simple to do by themselves w/ a little experimentation, but I needed to use a GameFAQs guide to get a specific Persona using Triangle Fusion. It usually wasn't the Persona that got me, though, but getting the specific move on there, since it took me quite a while to figure out the move inheritance rules (although there were a few obvious ones regarding the elemental attacks). Therefore, I'd say let it be.
Redkun: Does You Killed My Father really apply here? Ikutsuki isn't killed by Mitsuru and Shinjiro dies at the hands of Takaya, not Ken.

Specialist290: It sets it up for that sort of situation, so I guess that counts as a subversion. (It's also proof that I need more sleep...) I'll note that in the entry. Thanks for pointing it out.

Specialist290: Trimmed down the Cosmic Horror entry and moved most of the relevant info over to the trope page. (Noting just in case...)

HappyCorner: I know this isn't Wikipedia, but I still wish there had been more objectivity in this entry. The troper who wrote this one up seems to think the series has "mature themes". Yeah, right. I played a Persona game once ("Eternal Punishment", maybe). I find absolutely nothing "mature" about kicking the game off with the police investigating the murder of a principal... and having absolutely no concern (or even awareness) about the random-encounter demons all over the school! Gameplay And Story Segregation to the max, and most irritating.

Redkun: Gee, how objective. "I played a Persona game once. I didn't like it. Hence, this entry is bad." Complaining About Games You Don't Like, much?

HappyCorner: Gee, put words in my mouth much? Try again if I ever DO make a trope mocking Persona. I didn't say the entry was BAD, just that it could've used more objectivity and I wondered why the troper considered the games "mature". (Having had a chance to play Persona 3 FES in the meantime, I still wonder.)

Rebochan: Because for starters, shooting oneself in the head repeatedly is *not* considered light and fluffy material. Nor is the constant questions of the meanings of existence in the face of an inevitable apocalypse. That said, the franchise is really only considered adult in America - Shin Megami Tensei and its spin-offs are aimed at and played by the general gaming public in Japan. Its just that while the occult and such is considered kosher in Japan, its not considered so here.

Silverevilchao: Ever watched Neon Genesis Evangelion? Is that show mature? Yes? Ok, then Persona 3 is mature, considering that both of them share some of the same themes.

Redkun: Took out the following under Nietzsche Wannabe.

  • Arguably, the final boss falls under this as well, slowly reciting a story about the Tarot in his creepy, echoing voice every time he shifts his Arcana.
    Nyx Avatar: The moment man devoured the fruit of knowledge, he sealed his fate. Entrusting his future to the cards, man clings to a dim hope. Yet, the Arcana is the means by which all is revealed...

If anything should be allowed to talk about the futility of life without being accused of being a poser, it should be the literal manifestation of Death.

Redkun: Nuked most of the examples under Game-Breaker. Things like the Omnipotent Orb and Orpheus Telos are not Game Breakers purely because you get them at the very last stage of the game and have to put in a crapload of work before you can use them. By that point they count more as a Bragging Rights Reward.

  • Shout Out - Innocent Sin Online (and the accompanying player names Maya and Tatsuya) is one big Shout Out to Persona 2 (and was originally a Shout Out to Megami Tensei, the game that started it all). Also, several fusions (particularly the ones that Elizabeth requests) are those of key characters from other Mega Ten games; Alice and Lilith, for example, were important characters in Shin Megami Tensei.

Nezumi: I don't want to edit his page for fear of spoilers — I've already accidentally uncovered at least one, although it was one I'd already guessed before reading it — but all the ones under this bullet point are actually Mythology Gags, since they're all part of the same series, just different continuities.

Uknown Troper: Fear not, citizen, I have solved your spoilery problems with my ninja-like editing! Uknown Troper, away!

Sigh: About Love Makes You Crazy, only Yukari applies here because Mitsuru wasn't in love with the MC.

Red Viking: She had the same motivation as Yukari and she was if the player dated her.

Sigh: She wasn't canon, though... and Mitsuru was only acting out of friendship to Yukari. Perhaps you can add that instead?

Red Viking: I added Mitsuru because it's subjective. If we were talking about the Official Couple, I'd agree with you. But in this case, one can always assume she had feelings for the MC as well, especially since she is one of the potential love interests.

Sigh: Even so, I don't think she should be added to the trope unless there's definite proof that her actions were motivated by love. Though I will settle on this entry:

  • Love Makes You Crazy - Yukari's attempt to win the key and go back in time to see the Main Character again even if it might undo his victory over Nyx and doom the world. Mitsuru aids Yukari in this endeavor, but it's never specified whether or not she doing it out of her feelings for the Main Character.

Of course, she could always count because of her love for Yukari, even though that's not the kind of "love" the trope is talking about. :P

Red Viking: It's fine. I think you're being a bit too technical about the entries considering the informality of this site, but I'm willing to drop it.

Sigh:^_^;; It's fine, I'll keep it. I'm just...sorta weird about these things, sorry.

Mew seeker : about that part in the Answer where you have to fight your teammates, which trope does fit that part best? Took a Level in Badass ? Or maybe something else as they are much stronger, having 2000 Hps, no weaknesses, being immune to instant death, Ken having some super evading skill, Koromaru having Brave Blade, Junpei having Power Charge, Yukari having Rain of Arrows, Primal force, Megidolaon, Mitsuru having Vorpal Blade, Mind charge and Megidolaon. And on top of that, they're back to normal when they come back with Aigis.

Dalantia: Probably Good Is Dumb and/or Evil Is Cool. (Mitsuru always had Mind Charge in the game I played, I point out.)

Rebochan: I replaced the references to "Episode Yourself" and "Episode Aegis/Aigis" with their English names where appropriate. Most people looking at this page are going to play the US localization, so I think its appropriate in this case that the information be clear to the majority of viewers and also so future trope entries that will probably end up using the American names don't break up the flow of the page.

Unknown Troper: The summary of the game at the top of the page is excessive. It sounds more like it could pass for a review of the game than a summary of the game. It could probably do with some serious compaction and deletion of unnecessary details. Tropers looking to read about the game don't need to know every detail of the game's workings. Perhaps a separate character page could be made as well.

Rebochan: I agree. Actually, the insanely long summaries are a problem on several pages for specific shows/games/etc. and I've tried to clean them up where I can. They really shouldn't be reviewing the game, they just need to cover the basics. This game definitely would benefit from a Character page. I don't have the time to put one together right now or I'd volunteer.

Silverevilchao: I rewrote the summary. It's still a bit long, but it doesn't blatantly detail the first half-hour of the game anymore. What do you think?

Untuned Strings: I like the shortened summary a lot better than the old one. But I'm curious as to your reasoning for changing the page quote. Personally I liked the old one better.

Silverevilchao: I thought the general idea of what Aigis said was something that was really, really Anvilicious by the end of the game. The game in the last few months is like "EVERYONE DIES NO MATTER WHAT, JUST DEAL WITH IT AND MOVE ON!!!!", what with the important characters dropping like flies, the entire last month of the game, not to mention the constant stream of Memento Mori in the game's original intro (and don't even get me started on The Answer). I thought her quote really epitomized that. xD;;

Zef: No, I think "Memento Mori" represents the game and its theme better than anything. Aigis' quote comes off as needlessly downbeat, and even Pharos' creepy foreshadowing is a LOT more memorable. Even with the events in the last few months of the game, the message at the end of the game is very positive! (Which is kind of the point.) Anyone else think the quote should be reverted?

Untuned Strings: I also think it should be reverted.

BritBllt: Same here, and since that's three people, I'll change the quote back.

Silverevilchao: No prob. ;) I'm glad you guys at least liked the summary - that was something that had been bothering me for quite a bit. xD;;

BritBllt: Oh, definitely great job on the summary! And the Pharos and Aigis quotes both carry the same theme, so it still works for the new article. ^_^

Rocket Science: Do you guys reckon Anvilicious applies here? After all, the intro is basically nothing but memento mori over and over again, there's craploads of random symbolism, Ikutsuki's Motive Rant is all about how the world must die, both endings illustrate why it's important to live life to the fullest (and all of the ultimate Personas are awakened by realising this), etc. etc.
Tofu: I only have one question: WHY IS THERE NO Tear Jerker ENTRY?! The game damn near broke my heart at the end! And don't even get me started on the LP... *bawl*
  • Rebochan: It's a wiki. You don't need permission.

Pocketwatch: In Shout-Out, is the tea really called Cylon tea, or did someone miss-spell Ceylon? (Which is a normal variety of tea...) I'm afraid I can't quite remember.

Removed the following:

Mitsuru is by no means any kind of Aloof Ally; she's an integral member of SEES from the beginning.

Rogue 7: By my reading of the trope page, being an Aloof Ally is optional- the trope in this case is almost Exactly What It Says on the Tin. And if you don't think Mitsuru's hot...

Ramidel: To quote the page: "It should be noted that not all traits apply, but most generally do. It should also be noted that not all girls who wield swords would be a Hot Chick With A Sword. To use an example with a commonly known character, Kamiya Kaoru from Rurouni Kenshin would NOT be of this trope."

So I don't think Exactly What It Says on the Tin fits; there at least has to at least be some point where Mitsuru is either aloof to the party, hostile to it, or otherwise screwing with their heads, and just not revealing a personal trauma doesn't count. Instead, she's the Team Mom and one of those working hardest to save the world.
Mogster: Under Nightmare Fuel, there's an entry that reads "After Yukari fails to summon her persona, the Protagonist calls his own, Orpheus (the legendary Greek poet and master of the lyre)." From what I can tell Yukari does in fact summon her persona twice in that scene; it's just that the persona doesn't materialize the way MC's does. Have a look at the scene: at 00:40 a couple of air columns attack the shadows, and again a few seconds later. It's not possible for her to use her air attack without her persona.

Alexlayer: Those attacks weren't from her. They were from the Shadow, and they attacked Yukari. Yukari never reached to pull the trigger, and the Protagonist ended up using her Evoker.

Mogster: I'm not so sure. Since it's the first full moon it'd have to be of the Magician arcana, and don't Magicians use fire spells?

BritBllt: I'm pretty sure Yukari did summon Io in that fight. The sequence of events (which plays out so fast that you can only really catch it once you know how the battle mechanics work) is that she used her evoker and cast Garu twice, but the Magician dodged them and then attacked her, knocking her down. That's when the MC grabbed her evoker and joined the battle. It's a minor point that could be fixed just by rephrasing it as "after Yukari fails to hurt the shadow", which is equally true whichever way the scene's taken.
Kalle: re: P3 on PSP — Man-Elizabeth. DISCUSS. (lol resemblance to Kanji)

Alexlayer: I'm personality excited about this P 3 P (The apparent codename for the P3 for PSP), but while this design looks interesting, I hope they won't screw it by just changing everyone's gender and making that the only difference in the whole game.

Rogue 7: Holy shit, it is Kanji!

Jaabi: I suspect the genders are player-chosen (or Elizabeth is the opposite to the chosen gender for the MC). I'm more concerned it's download only, because that cause problems for me in NZ or simply too 'large'. Not all of us have super-broadband Atlus! (If they change their minds, it'll make deciding between PSP+P1 and PS2+P3+P4 so much easier...)

Alexlayer: What!? It's been really said to be download-only?! I mean, I know it's been seen in the latest PSP model, which is Download only type, but they are not even gonna release it in any other form?!

Jaabi: Well, maybe, maybe not. Can anyone read this to clear it up?

Alexlayer: Yay! ^_^

BritBllt: The social links alone will make this fascinating. I can't wait to see how the story's changed, with the male Theodore getting introduced to the human world, and with the heroine being friends with Mitsuru and Yukari while dating guys like Kaz and Kenji. And does that mean Ryoji might become "Ryoko", a popular new girl that the guys are all swooning over? Or that Pharos might become "Phara", a spooky little girl who appears in the heroine's room at night? I might have to cave in and buy a PSP just to give this a try...

Kalle: Actually, it's recently been confirmed that male Ryoji will still be in the female MC's route. AND he's the Fortune S.Link for her. ... I have to see how this plays out, it just sounds like it's going to end messily.

BritBllt: That's ...disappointing. :( I guess they can justify it by saying his form comes from the female MC's animus, but when they make such a big deal about Pharos/Ryoji gaining his humanity by being a part of the hero, it's a shame we don't get to see that with the female MC. But a romantic social link with the amnesiac Anthropomorphic Personification of Death? Yeah, that's gotta take doomed romances to a whole new level...
  • Or I guess another way to think of it is that Death is just naturally male. It doesn't seem like the shadows would have any real gender, but some of them do take on male or female forms, and Thanatos looks male and is described as Nyx's son, so I guess that makes sense. I just always liked the idea that Pharos/Ryoji looks like so much like the MC because his human form came from the MC's self-image...

BritBllt: Okay, I'd read here that the song Kimi no Kioku totally makes the ending clear and that explains the whole story and everything, and so I'd avoided hearing or reading the lyrics until I'd finished the game. Well, I finished the game... and I'm not seeing it, at all. Here's the trope listing...

And here are the lyrics from Anime

The voice of the wind sheds drops of light onto you as you doze off
I won't forget your kind smile or your eyes hidden with sorrow

Even though it hurts (to make a wish), I received the courage to fight from you, so I will go
If I awaken (from a dream), I'll be able to see you again

I will hide my distant memories in my breast and sing

Because you protected this ephemerally floating world by your own hand
Now simply fold your wings and sleep restfully
Be wrapped up in an eternal tranquility, and love through all eternity

Sleep, by this hand of mine that gently watches over you
I remember you laughing, you crying, you angry
I will never forget for all time until my life is exhausted

At a crosswalk, I heard a voice very similar to yours
I turned around and looked up at the sky, holding my tears back from overflowing

Tomorrow for sure (one of these days), I believe I can see you once more as I wander alone
Through rainy nights (and sunny mornings), I keep on waiting

I won't forget the night we ran through

That brightly shining moment, I was with everyone
I spent that time without knowing it was irreplaceable
Now, so that I'll just recall it fondly, I will embrace the feeling

You were definitely by my side back then, you know
You were always, always, always smiling right next to me
Even if I lose you, I'll get you back. I will never leave you.

That's all pretty much what Aigis said in the ending: she'll never leave him, they've fought through so much together, those days meant everything to her, they saved the world and so now he should rest. Any hint of his death, such as the "at a crosswalk, I heard a voice" lines, is no stronger than all the hints that were already in the ending anyway. I'm just not seeing these lyrics as adding anything that the ending itself didn't already have - I mean sheesh, it goes to credits with the hero too weak to move, closing his eyes, and fading away into a bright light! Anyone who's determined to not take it as the hero dying after that could turn these lyrics around to mean he's alive too ("Aigis is just lonely in the song, because he went off to college without her, yeah, that's it!"). :)

Space Drake: Well, "explains the whole story" might be a bit much, although a few lines are really rather explicit about the death (such as the aforementioned crosswalk, not to mention "wandering alone". The big thing is the second refrain, though, which in another translation runs as: "In dazzling, shining moments we were all together/I spent them without realizing how precious they were/Now, to remember them fondly I will embrace the feeling/You were right there with me/Always, always, always you were smiling there beside me/Even if I lose you, I'll get you back, I will never leave you".

In addition to driving the game's point home, a lightbulb should be going off over the last line, as (Answer spoilers) that line more or less establishes what happens in The Answer and sets up the inner turmoil Aigis feels during the Tournament Arc. Without this, some of the characterizations in The Answer can seem a little... random.

I'll hold off on edit warring the entry in question back in for now, but it's generally agreed that the song enhances the ending a lot and that leaving it untranslated in the English release was a rather big mistake.

BritBllt: I'm not sure I'd go as far as wallbanger, since it might've been included with the soundtrack disc, and Atlus must've known fans would be translating and posting the lyrics online in a hurry. But yeah, those are all good points as far as Bilingual Bonus goes. I've re-added it as this...

  • Also, "Kimi no Kioku", the ending theme song, which elaborates on the game's ending sequence and foreshadows Aigis and the rest of the team's emotional development during "The Answer"). Since there are no subtitles, it's up to the player to find out what the song's about.

Looking back over it, I'm not even sure the spoiler tag's needed, but it could be a spoiler for anyone who's read the lyrics but not yet played "The Answer".

Space Drake: Edited in a little more to split the difference. :V As a rule, Answer stuff is spoilered since it's fairly "deep" in the game and ruins some of the surprises new players may have. Otherwise, looks solid!
BritBllt: Somebody keeps adding in references to evokers being real guns in Japan, but I'm gonna need some serious proof to accept that the Kirijo Group hands out real guns for the students to shoot themselves in the head, and that somehow having a persona protects you from fatal headshots and turns actual suicide attempts into a harmless summoning mechanism. That's just way too much to swallow for me, and the whole Nyx's Feather thing in "The Answer" seems to contradict it as well. All I could find online in reference to this idea was an unsourced one-sentence entry on an SMT wiki that could just be part of this same rumor. I'll do some research later to see if there's any truth to it, but it just raises so many Voodoo Shark questions that I'm skeptical.

Rebochan: Atlus said they censored nothing from the Japanese version. They were even explicitly asked about whether the suicide imagery would be replaced and they explained it was staying in unaltered. Whoever is suggesting that the guns should be "real" guns is sorely mistaken or spreading a rumor.
Silverevilchao: Does anyone know what Arisato Minato (有里湊) translates to? It's driving me insane!

Space Drake: Roughly speaking, "home port". Which isn't symbolic at all, really! That translation probably loses a little subtlety, but that's more or less what it means.

Silverevilchao: Ahaha, I knew "Minato" meant "port", but I thought that maybe it was a homonym for something else. Really, really cheesy name. xD