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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Noxshade: We got ourselves a quote war going on here, don't we?
Needs Hype Backlash. Not everyone loves this show. Any objections?

Mr Wednesday: Hype Backlash is something individual people experience, it doesn't really belong on the main page for a work.


David Tennant quits 2010... whed did this became facts?

The Admiral: Um, a while ago, actually. The BBC said so.
Seth: Image Hotlinked (And from wikipedia - for shame)
// Regarding the new series- All trope discussion will go here:

Doctor Who New Series Tropes

Anywhere else and it will be removed by me as a spoiler due to not yet being shown in the US- Silent Hunter

Red Shoe: At the risk of sounding like a, well, jerk, there's a pretty good chance that the new series will never be shown in the US. The first time the original series was ever shown nationally in the US was in the mid 90s. Would you consider lifting the restriction once it's released on DVD?

Looney Toons: Um, actually, the series was being shown in the US on PBS at least as early as 1981, if not earlier.

Red Shoe: That's a misnomer. Doctor Who was never shown on PBS. It was shown on individual public television stations which also happened to be PBS affiliates. It wasn't part of PBS's programming package: each station that showed it had to buy it separately from Lionheart TV (The BBC's US Distro outfit). PBS doesn't work the way the other networks do. That's why I qualified my statement by saying "nationally".

Silent Hunter: If it gets an R1 DVD release, yes, I'll lift the restriction. As soon as it is available legally in the US, either on TV or DVD, references will no longer count as spoilers.

Silent Hunter: The DVD will be released in Canada on 26 February 2006.

Even better, it will be released in the US on 14 February.

Ununnilium: The DVD release has been pushed back, but apparently Sci-Fi Channel's going to start airing it. Anyone have more details?

Red Shoe: The current scuttlebutt is that it's going to join Scifi's friday-night block-o-power in either March or May, as a summer replacement series.

Silent Hunter: It's officially confirmed, it'll be aired on Scifi from March. I'm going to move all references in tropes pages to the spoiler section.

Robert: What's the spoiler policy for Torchwood, and future spin-offs? Same as for the new series?

Ununnilium: And if so, where should we put Torchwood spoilers?

Gus: It would seem fair to have a series entry about Torchwood that didn't drop any plot developments. Casting, premise, etc. should be fair game. A Torchwood Spoilers entry would give sufficient warning in the title...

TJ Devil 02: I wanted to add this to the list of tropes, but I can't remember what it's called: the fact that Doctor Who's main character is "The Doctor", even though most Americans think it's "Doctor Who".

Ununnilium: I Am Not Shazam. Adding now...

alphamone: this troper points out that some people seem to think that the series is non violent. yet from all the episodes of the original series i have seen, people seem to be remembering the violence of the original from the perspective of a child, and seem to want the new series to have the equivilant level for their current age. and there seem to be some people that think that rustle T davies replaced the actor of the master, eve though Anthony Ainley is dead, and, to quote South Park, nobody gives a S*** about eric roberts (who played the master in the movie.) So it definitely seems that there is quite a bit of fan dumb that is brough on by selective memory of the episodes. and selevtive memory amoung fans of the show goes back to the tenure of JNT, when people were basicly saying the same thing about him. so there is a whole lot of fan dumb and related things that can be added. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDSWRSZGuco is just one of the videos that prooves my point of fan dumbness, and view his other videos as well.

Silent Hunter: The violence level of the show has varied considerably, often from producer to producer. Which reminds me that I'd better add something about them. Remember, much of the show's audience wasn't even born when the classic series was on air.


Silent Hunter: Series 4 has confirmed UK air date of 5 April. I'll check us date, but I don't think it's very much after that.

The US gets "Voyage of the Damned" on the 18th and starts on S4 proper a week later. Ep titles are going up to the spoiler section.


Sikon: I've changed the opening quote. If you prefer the old one, change it back.

Silent Hunter: I think I prefer the old one, but I'll let others chip in.

Thunder Phoenix: Whatever happened to the "Family of Blood" quote? That one was my favorite.

Silent Hunter: Went with The Great Crash, but I can put it back.

Thunder Phoenix: Just a matter of personal preference. The current quote really only applies to the new series, but the quote I suggested could be really applied to any of the Doctors since the sixties.

Silent Hunter: Any other views before I do a restore to:
He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever. He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe. And... he's wonderful.
Tim Latimer, "The Family of Blood", describing the Doctor

It Box : I really don't think that quote should be at the top of the page. If someone hadn't seen Doctor Who before what would it tell them about the series? Only that the series has writers that can come up with hyperbolic descriptions of the main character.

I'd suggest this exchange from City of Death:

Countess Scarlioni : I don't think he's as stupid as he seems. Count Scarlioni : My dear, no one could be as stupid as he seems.

Demonstrates the humour of the series (the "He" being discussed is the Doctor)

And that this quote from The Sixties episode the moonbase from the second doctor:

"There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible things. Things that act against everything we believe in. They must be fought."

Shows the more serious side of the character.

Itbox: I don't want to change the quotes without some consultation, does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Silent Hunter: I'd go for both.

Antheia: Just thought I'd mention I've added a Quotes page for this series.

Sines: One possible choice for quote comes from Forest of the Dead. "Everybody knows that everybody dies. But not every day. Not today. Some days are special. Some days are so, so blessed. Some days, nobody dies at all. Now and then, Every once in a very long while, every day in a million days, when the wind stands fair and the Doctor comes to call, everybody lives.."

Dae Brayk: I changed the quote, hope nobody minds. The one up there just feels too stiff for the tone of the series.

Aww, it's back again... Something else entirely maybe? I think the current makes the doctor sound like too much of an omniscient infallible old man.

"I can feel it. The turn of the Earth. The ground beneath our feet is spinning at 1,000 miles an hour, and the entire planet is hurtling around the Sun at 67,000 miles an hour and I can feel it. We're falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go... That's who I am."

The Ninth Doctor, Rose

I'll be changing it again (to that^) if nobody's responded tomorrow.

It's just been announced that Steven Moffat will be taking over as lead writer/exec producer from 2009 for season 5 (2010) onwards.

Silent Hunter: Lovely news. Moffat is brilliant.

Shale: Brilliant or better. The run he had in the first three years with World War II, The Girl in the Fireplace and Blink is frankly absurd.
Eponymous Kid: I'm just going to say it: This article is a mess. It should probably be revamped slightly to match up more with other series pages...

Large Blunt Object: Reformatting it so it's not full of STUPID RANDOM SPACES from someone who has no idea how to put together a page; can't speak for the content.
(later) Okay, the markup is better now, so anyone who wants to make the page itself less crap will have far less trouble.

Silent Hunter: I've started a complete re-write. Contributions welcome.
arromdee: The series is not the speculative fiction series with the most episodes. Dark Shadows and Super Sentai far exceed it. Super Sentai also exceeds it in number of years. (Though whether Super Sentai is "a series" is a matter of opinion.)

Cassius335: Super Sentai is speculative fiction? I thought it was a Live Action Mecha Anime. It's also, strictly speaking, several series.
Cukeman: Can someone tell me what in God's name a Time Lord actually is outside of "a time controlling alien"? I don't even know what channel Dr. Who airs on, let alone seen a minute of it. I know that makes me a heretic (a fact that I'm quite proud of), but with all the references to them, it'd probably be useful knowledge, and The Other Wiki doesn't have a concise enough of an answer.

SynjoDeonecros: That's pretty much the closes you're going to get to a decent explanation on what a Time Lord is. They're an ancient race, native of the planet Gallefry, with two hearts and the ability to regenerate their entire bodies into a new form upon imminent death (though supposedly not more than thirteen times, though they can apparently top-up their regeneration miles card under certain circumstances). They've mastered time-travel and for a good part of history saw to its protection, fixing paradoxes, making travel between time frames and alternate universes easier, stopping baddies from rewriting history as they saw fit, etc. Their main enemies are the Daleks, mutated citizens of the planet Skaro created by a kook named Davros, and are bent on the extermination of every single race other than their own from the universe. They usually have a rule against meddling in the timeline when it's not broken, themselves, but there are rogue Time Lords that flip off that law for their own pleasure. And in the last great Time War (a war between the Time Lords and the Daleks that spanned countless centuries and light years and was invisible to "lower" life forms (apparently those not aware of time's alteration by more powerful beings) and the "higher" ones (those that are aware of changes in the timeline)), the Doctor supposedly wiped out both sides. Supposedly, because the Daleks are Clock Roaches that refuse to stay dead, and we've already seen one Time Lord return other than the Doctor. And it's hinted that the events of the Time War are about to become undone this Saturday. That explain everything to you?

Evil Midnight Lurker: To clarify a bit, the Time Lords were the ruling class of the Gallifreyan species. Ordinary Gallifreyans (who either didn't qualify for or washed out of the Academy) didn't get regenerations or TARDI Ses or any particular awesomeness.

Cukeman: Well, I still can't see the logic (aside from the obvious) behind claiming unrelated characters to be Time Lords in WMG. Or what a TARDIS is.

Robert: A Tardis is the type of time machine used by the Time Lords - bigger on the inside than the outside, near indestructible, and capable of disguising itself as absolutely anything, from a handbag to a house. By WMG logic then, anything bigger on the inside is a Tardis, and its owner a Time Lord, as is any character ever played by multiple actors.

Cynthia Wakefield: I think it's just Memetic Mutation. Someone made a sensible comment about someone who really could be described as a Time Lord (maybe Rufus from Bill and Ted), someone else added another name, and from there we got a lot of people adding "but X has to be a Time Lord because every series has to have SOMEONE said to be a Time Lord on their WMG page."

Awix: Is it in any way worth mentioning that all the stuff about the Daleks being the main enemies of the Time Lords is essentially a retcon from the 2005 series onwards? The main enemy of the Doctor, maybe. Admittedly in the original run on one occasion the Time Lords try to erase the Daleks from history, and in another instance the Daleks plan to assassinate the Time Lord leadership, but it doesn't really feel like there's any kind of ancestral grudge being fought out. The Doctor doesn't even recognise the Daleks (nor they him) on their first encounter (not that this doesn't have continuity issues of its own).


Evil Midnight Lurker: Why does the tropes list end at F?

Eponymous Kid: Because people who actually like Dr. Who don't care to put them in? As I recall, b efore Silent Hunter did his rewrite thing, tropes weren't listed at all. And, after all, he's only one man...

Kendra Kirai: Actually, I was the one who added the trope list examples, and I stopped at F because I was already past the edit checkout time, and I didn't get around to continuing from where I left off yet.


Oh, so everyone who hates Rose is Fan Dumb? Greeeaaat. I hope you, whoever you are, agree that Rose fans who hate Martha, Jabe, Reinette, River, Romana and pretty much every woman who ever come close to the Doctor - and believe that Rose, thanks to timey-wimey stuff, IS Susan's grandmother, she simply MUST be! she's the love of all his lives, he couldn't marry anyone else, never, never, never!!! - are no less Fan Dumb. "For fangirls who are infuriated at Rose's supposed Mary Sue qualities, the ship Rose needs to die for is Doctor/Fangirls" - WTF? Sorry to disappoint you, but I, for one, don't ship the Doctor/myself. Or any actor who play him/myself.

The Admiral: Frankly, I think that whole entry is inflammatory and unnecessary. (And no, I'm not really a Rose fan, but that goes beyond Fan Dumb into insanity.)

Grimace: I'm basically with you two, and so I changed the bit into a single entry that (I hope) is nice and neutral. It's not perfect, but at least it doesn't call those who dislike Rose or [Insert Character Here] Fan Dumb. I mean I quite liked Rose, but never got the impression she is the Doctor's "super-duper, no. 1, oh so shiny special twue wuv". Once a companion leaves, you accept it and let people embrace the new one - you don't keep placing her on a pedestal (sorry, that's a small irk of mine. I'll stop now >;~D).


Cynthia Wakefield: I would take strong exception to the flat description of Donna as Rescued from the Scrappy Heap. That is a VERY hotly debated topic — many fans (including myself) believe she's WORSE now than she was in "The Runaway Bride," and are frankly delighted she's gone. Opinion on whether the fourth season was the best ever or a nightmare seem evenly divided.

Rebochan: If by "evenly divided", you mean "a small, vocal group of people don't like her", then yes. The praise of Donna's character in Series 4 that I've found stretches across the net and inside and outside Doctor Who fan communities. I've seen very little to discount Donna post-Runaway Bride, or Series 4 for that matter.

priopraxis: Why isn't Deus Ex Machina on the list of tropes ?? It's practically the premise of the series !


Maureen Mac Donald: I've changed the two example scene links in the history section. The second link was broken and I found a replacement, but the first one I changed because it wasn't actually from the first episode. It was from the unaired pilot version of the first episode. The finalized version of The Unearthly Child has better camerawork and such. Nitpicky I suppose, but if linking to the unaired version was part of the point and I've just missed it, feel free to change it back.


Daibhid C: I've made a new version of the picture, with Matt and the new logo. I leave it up to the group if it should replace the current image (now, after the regeneration, or not at all).

Silent Hunter: I favour it going up after the regeneration.

Reading Champion: I agree. Not that I doubt that any "real fan" already knows, but let it be a "As it is now"-page.

Can we get a different picture of Matt Smith? The quality on that one makes him look like a lipsticked emo.

Nightsky: OK, I've put up the new pic and archived the old one here.
Anime Otaku: Added an entry for Body Horror specifically highlighting Planet of the Ood but it needs embellishing as I left out details because I don't know how to add spoiler tags, also don't know how to link to the recap page. Finally I'm sure that there's other examples, such as a classic episode involving cat people. The Lazarus Experiment and the Daleks in Manhatten 2parter probably count too.


Rebochan: I pulled the God-Mode Sue entry because he just flat out isn't. He makes way too many screw ups and gets called out for his judgement far too many times to hit Suedom. I just added a reference to it to the Mary Sue trope entry since the discussion of pretty much every companion being accused of being a Sue seemed to describe this one too.
Daibhid C: About this:

That sound you heard was all the hardcore Who-fen going "Actually..." Some of the sadder cases can tell you which Doctors were played by more than one actor. One and Six

Wasn't the other actor who played the Sixth Doctor Sylvester McCoy, so it doesn't actually add to the list of actors who played the role?

Nightsky - I view it more as a pre-emptive strike against people exhaustively adding in every stand-in, Cushing Movies Doctor, Doctor Who Unbound Doctor, or whatever.

Would it be fair to say there is an element of "Well Done, Son" Guy in End of Time, in the way the Master seems desperate that the Doctor acknowledge that the drums are real, and he's not crazy? Or is that the wrong trope/my slash goggles are making me say stupid things again?

Mr Wednesday: I think he was just desperate for anyone to tell him he was sane, rather than it just being a Doctor-fixated thing.

Vyhd - In what media/episodes/serials was the TARDIS called "Time and Relative Dimensions in Space"? I'll admit I haven't seen much of the old Doctor Who series, but the First Doctor, Eighth Doctor, Ninth Doctor, and Tenth Doctor all refer to it as "Time and Relative Dimension in Space", and given the general Gannon-Banned reaction to calling the main character "Doctor Who", I'm wondering what basis there is to keep using the plural version.
Grimace: Chopped this from the Complete Monster entry. Belongs in Gallifrey Base more than here.

  • The Master already destroyed much of the universe in "Logopolis", including Nyssa's home planet of Traken, immediately after nicking the body of Nyssa's father.
  • Okay let me explain slowly: Rassilon caused The Master. All of the Ax-Crazy crap The Master has pulled is due to the drumming in his head, caused by Rassilon. Rassilon is responsible for the Master. Therfore, Rassilon is also indirectly responsible for all the destruction the Master caused in his insane goal of universal domination. Worse, when the Master was resurrected, he initiated his plan, thwarted the Master's plan, and was willing to make the fabric of space-time tear in order to survive. He also showed spite against the Master despite him being a vital part in his plans, and was about to kill him, had not the Doctor intervened. Sorry, but if you're going to argue that the Master's worse, show me him as an Enfant Terrible, not what he did in a Fourth Doctor storyline. Until then, Rassilon remains Eviler than Thou and a Complete Monster.
    • The above only applies if you interpret the implanting of the "drum beats" as retroactively applying to the earlier versions of the Master, not just the Master as we see him in the Time War version of events. However the fact that drum beats were never mentioned in Old Who implies strongly that that Master was a "pre"-Time War one; showing that he would have been/was a grade A bastard whatever happened/was going to happen, retroactively implanted drum beats or no. Time travel makes things confusing, doesn't it?
    • So there are three explanations:1. The drumming always was in his head but he didn't feel the need to talk about it as much (why?), probably trying to drown it in the sound of people screaming, destruction and his own maniacal laughter. 2. It was really most strongest after his first, sorry, second death, so that even as a human, he's driven batshit crazy by it. 3. The old series implies that putting aside the Timey-Wimey Ball and Cosmic Retcon, the Master would still be evil (albeit not as evil). Wow. He's probably the closest thing to evil incarnate third to the Beast and Abaddon, respectively in Doctor Who. may have been playing with fire.
    • Um... THIRD? Try "sixth". Sutekh and Davros are both more evil in direct intent, and I side with the Rassilon is at fault side in this debate.
    • There's also the possibility that the drumming simply got stronger as he approached the point in his personal timeline when it was used, that combined with the more psychotic personality of his latest regeneration made him more interested in discussing it constantly since he's stated that he's told the Doctor before. His words while he was zapping Rassilon seemed to be pointing towards that conclusion.


I've seen a couple of Doctor Who Expanded Universe examples, which I don't think fit here due to contested levels of canon, but that page doesn't show examples. I'm not certain whether they should be removed or not.