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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Jack Butler: Why were all mentions of the Crispin's Day speech removed?


Andygal: There was two mentions of the Digimon anime, I edited the first one to refer to ALL seasons of Digimon and not just the first two and deleted the second one. So if you put the second quote in and are wondering where it went, that's where.


Lale: Not all but a lot of these examples are groups of orphans. Shall we start a Club Of Orphans trope?

Later: Still looking for a second opinion...

Ununnilium: How would this differ from Parental Abandonment?

Lale: Parental Abandonment + Nakama.

Ununnilium: Hm. Okay, but is there something other than "these tropes overlap a lot"? Say, causes of the phenomenon, subtropes unique to this combination, and so on? If so, I say make it.


Scrounge: This trope needs a good, solid, catchy definition you can give to people if you use the word in conversation. Does "a family that isn't related" pretty much sum it up?

Lale: "As close as family." "Surrogate family."

tjstrf: "Main character party."

Poke_Freak: This quote very closely summarizes what it is all about. "A brother is not always a friend, but a friend is always a brother." -Ben Franklin. Plus, quoting famous people often makes you sound smart (or like a smartass). ;)

Toric: I read this definition and immediately thought of the standard Dungeons and Dragons party. A group of different people (often VERY different) who quickly bond and look out for each other despite their bickering. The various party-member interactions in Baldur's Gate 2, particularly Korgan and Viconia, come to mind.


Qit el-Remel: I've been researching the quote; all I've come up with so far is a page about adoption (some material may be controversial, so I'm not linking to it) and a line from Sex in the City. I doubt that either of the above is the original.


Big T: Just thought I'd throw this out there. It seems as if the article is hinting at the perfect translation to nakama: "like family." Well, at least, better than any of the answers given (except "one of us" in the right context).


Charred Knight: Deleted these two quotes, to cut down the quotes to three, which should be the quote limit anyway. I decided on these two quotes because the Proposition one takes to long to get to the point, and the Nanoha one doesn't explain a damn thing.

"Love. Love is the key. Love and family. For what are night and day, the sun, the moon, the stars without love, and those you love around you? What could be more hollow than to die alone, unloved?"
—The Proposition

Vita: Her allies?
Fate: No. Her friends.

Rogue 7: I'd favor dropping the Shakespeare quote and reinserting the Nanoha one, or another one from an appropriate anime- for some reason the fact that this is a fairly iconically Japanese trope seems to strike me as one deserving of an Anime quote. Just my $.02

Charred Knight: If you can find one that is unique than by all means post it here. My problem with the Nanoha quote is that the damn thing is pedestrian. ANY series could have that quote. I am all for having an anime quote, I would just rather it wowed me. The St. Crispin Day Speech wowed me. I would suggest trying to find one from either One Piece, Naruto, or Bleach since those three shows have a very high chance of getting one that is wow. I remember a pretty good one from Bleach where Tastuki nails Ichigo in the face, and says something about friends, and being Nakama. I would suggest keeping the Shakespare quote since its an excellent quote, and explains the concept of Nakama perfectly.
natter:

  • Not in the slightest incredible, as they are probably the only people her age on Earth who don't treat Luna as some kind of nut.
    • Not incredible from the personal point of view, yes, but certainly incredible in how deep the rivalries tend to run. After all, you eat and sleep with your House. That Luna's perceived Nakama is composed entirely of out-of-House school-mates is certainly unusual for the school itself.
  • Kurt from the Halo Ghosts of Onyx novel teaches the Spartan-III's to "be more family than fire team."


Cuchlann: The quotation from Henry V might not be the best example of this trope: most of the critical writing, as well as my own opinion from reading it, suggest that King Henry's lying to his men to keep them from routing. After the battle all the class lines are promptly restored, complete with Henry making a fool out of one of his officers for no good reason.


Fast Eddie: Moved a quote down. Please see Administrative Policy.

// later: removed some stuff that had nothing to with the term Nakama
gs68: Went ahead and moved a few examples to a newly-created Troper Tales page. If I'm wrong in doing this, punch me in the face until watashi wa mou shindeiru.
Penguin Bob: Frankly I do not see how the trope name itself is not Gratuitous Japanese.

Fast Eddie: It has crossed over to having more the status of a loan-word than just spurious Japanese-dropping.

Penguin Bob: "Futon" and "ninja" are loan-words. "Nakama" is only used in bad fanslations and this wiki. Google the term real quick - the first place it shows up other than as a proper noun is here.

Anonymous: AFAIK only one fansub group was unable to translate it, forgot the name but they only did One Piece. I've never seen it in any other place except for this very article. Every other group was always able to find a normal English word.

Fast Eddie: See, the fact that the term shows up for us on the first page of Google results indicates that the article is highly interconnected on the web. Whether it is 'gratutious' or not is really a small issue, one it is better for us to come down on the fan-friendly side of, since were fan-focused.

Nornagest: We're fan-focused, but we're not specifically focused on Japanese-language fandom — so, as an English-language site, I think it's a better idea to use English words where possible. Several good candidates present themselves here — "Band Of Brothers" was suggested on another discussion page, and "Like A Family" would also work pretty well.

Bottom line, this concept isn't closely tied to Japanese culture like, say, hikikomori; nor has it attached itself to a primarily Japanese fetishism like most of the Moe Moe stereotypes. And if it's a loanword, it's not a very common one; I have never seen it used outside this site, despite watching several fansubbed anime and floating around the edges of fanboy culture for a few years.

UK: It's not a loanword. I've never heard of it before reading this wiki. The term "Like Family" would be much, much clearer as to what this trope means.

Cliché: It doesn't show up on the first page of Google results anymore, for the record. (09/16/09)

Ubiq: As a One Piece fan, let me point out that a substantial portion of the fanbase loathes the widespread usage of the word "nakama". Usage of the word largely stems from Kaizoku Fansubs' practice leaving the word in their various translations to the extent that a lot of people who really should know better have seized upon it as a word that expresses a concept that cannot be directly translated into English. This in is spite of the fact that there are any number of words that convey the same meaning in English and in spite of the fact that the word doesn't even seem to have a concrete meaning within the Odaverse itself.
Fast Eddie: I think the header formatting works better when it stands out more. It allows a person to skim past the stuff they don't care about more quickly.

Uknown Troper: I disagree because I feel they ugly up the pages; furthermore, this means a deviation from the standard headers we've been using since the start of the wiki, meaning we'll have, oh, a few thousand pages to redo if we want to apply this.

Fast Eddie: I think they pretty up the page and serve a purpose. If the legacy headers don't serve the purpose, they should be updated.

Uknown Troper: And as I said, I feel they serve no more purpose than the old and break standard line formatting, annoying my OCD. In other words, if it isn't broke (the legacy headers), no need to fix it.

Fast Eddie: They (the legacy headers) are broken, though. They are very easy to miss on a quick scan. Quick scans are employed a lot because there are a number of people who need to get past the Anime section quickly — nothing in it means anything to them — and these are always long.

Uknown Troper: Use the search option? Frankly, I haven't seen any complaints about them being broken or the necessity of skipping anime/manga examples, and I have none either. But I have seen editors (me included) routinely excise the new headers whenever they appear, and the legacy headers are still employed on over 90% of the pages. In the end this will probably be decided by Tyranny of Majority, but for my sake the new ones just rub me the wrong way (just as the old ones seem to bother you, apparently) and I see no need to make the switch.
Haven: wordle

Rogue 7: I'm fairly sure the standard policy is one quote per page, especially given the quote Wiki. So I'd say leave the Firefly quote and put the full text of the Do Not Go Gentle into That Good Night (You can have that trope when you pry it from my cold, dead hands) back where it was. No reason the full text can't be in more than one place, it's not like we're going to run out of space.


Cliché: Someone verify this, since I have never seen "nakama" used in this way:

"In Japanese games with multiple characters, "nakama" is also the generic term for what Westerners call "the party"."


KiTA: Is this trope being renamed? I've seen several people changing it to either "Fellowship" or "Coterie" or whatnot. I could not find any forum discussion about the rename.

Kit329: I suspect someone must be planning to try getting the name changed and is going through changing all the terms because they think this will make it easier to get a re-name. Either that or I didn't see the forum topic. At least one person has been systematically going through entries and changing them to any of the redirects for Nakama, and they can't be familiar with all of those series personally. I guess they just really hate Nakama. The person I saw doing it hasn't even been putting the lists back in alphabetical order, so there's no way they're doing it properly. Edit: It seems that some people on the Trope Talk forum have got it into their heads to change the name of the trope on all the pages without trying to put it to a crowner, but apparently it's on hold for now. Have a look at the forum if you're interested.

Fast Eddie: you are free to revert these edits, of course.

KiTA: I'd suggest keeping an eye on the forums then. A few people renamed Hadaka Apron as the incredibly awkward sounding "Naked Apron" without going through the process, and after it was done it became pretty much impossible to fix. If they just go through and change this to "FriendshipSquad" or somesuch rename without going through the process, well...

BTIsaac: Well personally, I'm all for a proper and official rename. I strongly discourage any and all use of Gratuitous Japanese, unless it's absolutely necessary. And this here is not the case.

Unistrut: I'm not sure switching it to the Gratuitous French "Coterie" is any better. At least "Nakama" is easy to spell and pronounce.