Archived Discussion Main / TrialAndErrorGameplay

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Working Title: Fatal Trial and Error: From YKTTW

Blork: Removed this example:

• The puzzle game Zack And Wiki features this. Activate an object too soon or out of order, and the puzzle is now unsolvable, forcing you to restart the level. For example, one level is solved by creating a bridge, and then pushing a boulder across that bridge. If you push the boulder too soon, it falls into the gully, and you're screwed. Of course, there's no initial indication that you're supposed to wait before pushing the boulder, and indeed is the first thing many players do while probing the level environment. Trial-and-error is most often the way to solve the harder puzzles late in the game. Thankfully, the levels are short and can be restarted at at any time, so nothing ever becomes unwinnable.

Zack And Wiki is not easy, but it fits Ron Gilbert's description that "As a rule, adventure games should be able to be played from beginning to end without “dying” or saving the game if the player is very careful and very observant." There are always clues if a particular course of action will lead to failure, for example in the case described here the player could see the problem by observing that there is a large hole in the path of the boulder.

Andrew: Okay, admittedly that was a poor example, but I disagree that there is always a clue. Consider the puzzle "Keeper of the Ice" which involves pressing a switch on a lion statue. The switch is located away from the platform the characters are on and and is thus slightly out-of-reach. There is a stick near the start of the level that can be used to reach the switch. However, pressing the switch causes the lion to kill you with a blast of deadly fire. The way to solve the puzzle is to locate a hidden umbrella in the area, use it to activate the switch, and then quickly open up the umbrella to protect you from the flames. Honestly, how many people are clairvoyant enough to know to do this without first having been killed using the stick? And it's not just me, too. Check out reviews from the game:

Eurogamer: I should probably point out amongst all this praise that like all puzzle-based adventure games, Zack & Wiki requires some patience and occasional trial-and-error.

Videogamer.com: If the game has one flaw it's that it can sometimes feel like battering a door down with a little stick - or a case of trial and error-itis. Almost every level carries some threat of capture or hilarious death for Zack, be it at the hands of a King Kong-style ape, a cleaning-obsessed sweeping robot or an ice-breathing lion. It's almost inevitable that you'll die trying to work out what you're supposed to do on some of the later levels.

1up.com: Some levels take a solid hour or two of perseverance, head-scratching, and eventual bouts of trial-and-error to crack.

Blork: Even the Keeper Of The Ice puzzle does have clues to it - in an ice-themed level the lion's head is clearly breathing out cold air and is pointing directly at the platform you start on. A sufficiently observant player could spot this and realise the danger. I'm not saying that an average player will spot all the traps in advance - I certainly didn't - but it seems to me that to qualify for this trope trial and error (or using a guide, or a lucky guess) should be the only way to win. After all any puzzle can potentially be solved through trail and error tactics.

Falcon Pain: What about the gorilla at the end of the first chapter? The clue that you should have picked up the umbrella again before going for the chest, while made obvious, does not appear until you fall to your death.

To be honest, this game should qualify anyway, simply because of the presence of HirameQ and oracle dolls. Interacting with anything that you don't immediately know how to handle results in an HQ deduction, implying that a player should go back and use his experience to do everything perfectly for the maximum reward. And... well... why sell oracle dolls if you aren't expecting the player to mess up, die, and try again?

Blork: The chest was on an unstable-looking platform over a deep pit, near to the gorilla that tends to attack when you go near it. I spotted this one first time so it's certainly not impossible. And the HQ deductions, in addition to being bonus objectives, still have clues just like the deaths - just looking at an item won't hurt your score, but using it without thinking about what you're doing will. I seriously doubt that anyone went through the game without a guide and got a perfect score first time, but any mistake you may make can in principle be avoided through careful examination of the level. As for the Oracle Dolls, I never used them but surely they're hints, not anything to do with trial and error.

Falcon Pain: I stand by what I said about Choose Your Own Adventure. If you have the option to go left or go right, and going left results in your character's death, that's the definition of this trope.

Also, regarding oracle dolls, I should have said "platinum tickets".

Ununnilium: I've never played the game, but from the description here, it really really does sound like it fits. Clues, yes, but it definitely seems to be set up in a way that encourages this trope.

Falcon Pain: You're thinking of Luck-Based Mission. And speaking of Minesweeper, I noticed someone just removed it from the page, commenting that "no good version" would bomb you on the first click. Maybe not, but I know the version everyone has (the one that came with Windows) would.

Chad M: No it won't. Try making a custom game in which the maximum number of squares are bombs. The first click will never be a bomb (though it will nearly always be an "8") More to the point, its inclusion on this page is stupid because the game resets every time. It's not trial and error because once the "error" part happens, the part you were "trying" is permanently wiped. You can't have trial and error gameplay if all previous trials cannot give any insight to the current trial.

Glidergun:One of the spikes falls off of the wall and lands pointy-end-down so you can use the base for a platform. Then a series of Mega Man-style Temporary Platforms show up where each one disappears before the next one shows up, so you have to jump before you know where you're supposed to go next.

Chad M: Yeah that's mostly right except the spike doesn't fall on its own. You have to shoot it down first (the only way you will ever figure this out without a walkthrough is to die, then notice that the loose spike on the wall is vibrating)