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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

From YKTTW

Morgan Wick: Do you prefer the way the page was before, or after I rewrote it?

Ununnilium: This way, I think.

GuySmiley: How are Homer and company subversions, exactly?

Cort Jstr: I think Homer and Peter are subversions because both are acknowledged as mentally ill on the shows. A regular example might act like them (like Ray Romano, King of Queens, &c) but the show pretends the character is a "regular guy." Whereas The Simpson and Family Guy are saying that in order to be this sucky the character must be actually mentally handicapped, thus less relatable to the viewer.

Fly: I don't think the 'token black kid' from Hip Hop Harry counts - it's supposed to be the character you're supposed to identify with. If not it's The Ditz, right? But I haven't seen the whatever-it-is - maybe you are supposed to identify with him. Can someone who knows pitch in, please?

Fly: Since no-one's pitched in, I'm going with my gut instincts and shifting the Hip Hop Harry example to The Ditz.


Tree: How is Kim Possible an "inversion"? That is to say... how can this trope be inverted? The opposite of You Suck is Mary Sue, so why does someone who doesn't suck get mentioned here? I haven't seen much Kim Possible myself, so if there's a good reason that's cool, it just seems way out of place to me.


Manu: Upon first trying to read You Suck, I got the 'the database hates you right now' message, for reals. It cracked me up. I laughed a little louder when I saw the page. Kudos.


Amber-Artist: "Pretty much the premise of the Christian religion" False, and petty. According to Christianity, the only really bad thing about humans is that we were given the freedom of choosing our own destiny, and thus, some use it badly.

Dark Sasami: No, this refers to the concept of original sin, and the whole "no one is saved except through Jesus dying for them" bit. It's pretty spot on. Doesn't make it not flamebait, though.


Clarabell: Does Ron from Harry Potter count? He's not the main character, but he seems incompetent in so many ways. Then again, Harry himself almost counts — especially with his 'tude in Order of the Phoenix.


"Shinji from Neon Genesis Evangelion is a Deconstruction of this character type, showing what someone like that would really be like. He was especially notable for the time as very few Humongous Mecha protagonists had been portrayed this way, although this is close to becoming a Cyclic Trope at this point."

fhqwhgads: I don't quite get it. How is Shinji an ugly, lazy, incompetent near-illiterate ditz? If anything he's extremely competent, intelligent, and hard-working...he just has serious mental and emotional issues. They show him playing an extremely advanced piece of classical music, and have him saying it really isn't that much of an accomplishment. He risks his life to beat each angel he's faced against going above and beyond what's needed of him in spite of the terrible trauma it causes him, in addition to the pressure of knowing that his failure means the deaths of himself and everyone he's ever known. I was under the impression that Shinji was a Deconstruction of the Kid Hero trope showing what kind of pressure having to save the world would put on an actual child.

osh: I think he still fits, but perhaps from a different point of view. A lot of people insist that since the protagonist is supposed embody positive traits of the audience. Shinji still has positive ones, but a lot fans are annoyed he doesn't have the stereotypical hot-blooded mecha protagonist personality so they emphasize the bad ones and then treat it like a commentary on the audience (i.e., them)

Cliché: After someone drew my attention to it, I have to say that "Shinji is a Deconstruction of You Suck" is the funniest thing I ever heard on this wiki. Now I actually want to try to deconstruct this trope. Maybe a "The Reason You Suck" Speech might do it.

Trouser Wearing Barbarian: Neon Genesis Evangelion fans have the annoying/amusing habit of listing everything in the show as being a "deconstruction", even when it makes no sense.

Willy Four Eyes: In that case, that bit should go in Kid Hero, and not this trope. Cut.

Anyone want to try phrasing this in a better way? (from 12-11-08 cut:)

  • Shinji from Neon Genesis Evangelion is a Deconstruction of this character type, showing what a 'normal' person who goes through most of the Humongous Mecha protagonist cliches might actually end up being like. These were rare traits at the time, and a fair amount of the older (male) audience either disliked the character intensely for not being a hot-blooded heroic figure, while the younger audience thought it was a derisive commentary on them personally.

How about:
  • Shinji Ikari from Neon Genesis Evangelion is, essentially, a statement that the viewers couldn't possibly handle the stress of being a hero/piloting a mech.
The phrasing needs quite a bit of work, but...blah, finals are frying my brain. Somebody clean it up please?


Idler: Does a character still fit this trope if you're not meant to see them as sucking, even if the other characters do?
Ozymandias: Removed the Truth In Television example. It was rude, petty, and completely unwanted.
Ken Kopin: The Dr. Horrible line incorrectly states that Penny was killed by the Doc, when it was actually Captain Hammer attempting to use Dr. Horrible's malfunctioning Death Ray. But I think changing it just makes it not worth keeping, and I'm not familiar enough with the social norms around here to know if it cool to just delete it. Also, it's more of a bittersweet ending than a dogged nice guy.
TsundeRay: Okay, something really needs to be done about all the improper potholes and listings to this page. Examples of misuse:

Most Annoying Sound

Punch-Out!!
  • You Suck: What happens when you lose "Mac's Last Stand" in the Wii version three times ("And so, Mac has left the ring"). You then have to sit through an unskippable Downer Ending cutscene followed by an unskippable credit sequence, after which you're dumped back into the "attract" sequence. To add injury to insult, players can no longer play career mode because their profiles (which can still be accessed) have literally been "retired".

LanceOmikron: The trope's name certainly isn't doing it any favors. "You Suck" doesn't sound like a character trope at all.

Matrim:Removed Xander from "Buffy" from the list of examples. Seems to me that whoever wrote it didn't bother remembering the early seasons where Xander saves Buffy's life more often than the rest of the cast combined. So he isn't as smart as Willow and Giles? So what, this doesn't make him a total loser.
Dausuul: I like the rename, but IMO it should be "A Loser Is You," to play off A Winner Is You.

macroscopic: Okay so we just changed the name to This Loser Is You and that's way awesome. But we've still got more than 600 wicks almost 600 wicks pointing to You Suck and the number keeps creeping back up on me.

As far as I'm seeing the bulk of it is equally divided between Ron Stoppable and misuse (i.e. unnecessary Take Thats). And it's pretty discouraging work 'cause it's all so damn negative. Related to here for any kind souls who want to help.

Oh, and speaking of Ron, is it general consensus that he fits this trope? I know he's a normal guy amongst superheroes but other than that there aren't that many negative qualities attributed to him. His girlfriend's just kind of a sue. He certainly doesn't deserve to have his name potholed to You Suck every time he's mentioned whether relevant or not.