Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Working Title: Purity Sue: From YKTTW
Ethereal Mutation: Does anyone have any objection to some of this old discussion being deleted/moved to an archive? This page is just a little too unwieldy.
  • Mackenzie Blaise from Tales of MU. While the author is careful to give her various negative qualities, they come off as more ass-covering for the rather long list of other blatantly Sue-ish traits the character has. She's ridiculously modest to the point of being self-deprecating about her appearance, prompting all of her friends to tell her how ridiculously sexy she is. Everyone she meets either wants to be her friend or just plain wants her (either overtly or covertly), and the only people who don't like her are portrayed as complete (usually bigoted) jerkasses. She's got a tragic past that gets brought up at the drop of a hat, superpowers, a loyal posse of elves and nymphs and so on, defies an unjust society with no real repercussions other than some rumormongering and grumbling, and in general follows every trope of a stereotypical Mary Sue except for her table manners and the occasional slap-on-the-wrist version of a What the Hell, Hero?.

Mekhet: I'm sorry, I hate to be the internet cheerleader for Tales of MU</obvious lie>, but Mackenzie doesn't belong on this list. Her "various negative traits" include terrible hygiene, zero interpersonal skills, kneejerk religious intolerance, and a Dexterity score of 0, all of which combine to make her the Butt-Monkey of her own story. Her friends call her on her own Jerk Ass traits all the time, and yes, a lot of them want to jump her bones, but half the campus hates her and the ones who like her are conscious of her faults. The ones who hate her do come off less sympathetic, but it's her POV. She hasn't had any real repercussions for 'defying an unjust society' but she hasn't been thrown a parade either. The story has maybe three people who think the sun shines out of her ass: her girlfriend, her best friend, and her surrogate sister. The fact that the people who like her the best hang out with her the most does not a Sue make. Even then, none of them think she's perfect and they aren't shy about it.

There have been two or three chapters devoted to showing what a shit writer the character is and how she doesn't know it. Where's the Sue?
Rebochan: Why exactly is Micaiah here? This is *exactly* the kind of Flanderization this trope has gone through - any female character you don't like can be turned into a Mary Sue so you have a justification for it. Same for The Doctor's Daughter - before the episode even aired, people were screaming for her Mary Sue head and started keeping a checklist of silly reasons why she was a Canon Sue so they could rant about it later.

Willy Four Eyes: Agreed, and deleted. Squishy Wizards, by definition, cannot be Mary Sues, because Mary Sue is perfect.

DieHard: Gameplay and Story Segregation means that actual things such as stats in combat really don't impact on potential Sue status. Also, it's not that Mary Sue is "perfect" so much as the plot seems to think so. As for that particular example itself, I have no opinion either way because I haven't played the game.

Rebochan: The plot didn't think she was perfect, so she's not a Sue. She's very important to the plot, but by that standard, any character that is important to a plot is a Sue. A lot of people just don't like her because she's a really crappy unit that you're forced to use during most of the game. It doesn't make her a Sue, just a crappy unit.

Rebochan: Exactly - of course, if she *was* perfect, I doubt many people would complain about her too much. I mean, most of the lords in the series are walking death machines - which should make them Sues, but they are forgiven by the fact that everyone is glad to have one on their team.

Danel: I agree with this - the Canon Sue examples continue to pollute all of these fine and shiny new tropes with their awfulness. Nonetheless, I've removed the natter after the Doctor's Daughter example - despite agreeing with it wholeheartedly:
  • How in the world does this count as a Mary Sue except that she's cheerful and the lead character's clone daughter? Wasn't the whole point of the episode whether or not she even counted as his daughter?

I would also like to remove the Doctor's Daughter example entirely, but I have no desire to start an Edit War. The core of it to me is that the story is less about her, and more about the Doctor and what this all means to him. Thoughts? Oh, and also, removed this because it's just ridiculous, and appears to suggest that this character counts as a Purity Sue largely by being the main character.
  • Carly Shay in iCarly is at least a borderline Purity Sue, as Carly is not only the focus of the show, but shown to be beautiful, smart, and popular (even amongst her teachers).
    • Not to mention that she seems to be able to maintain a popular webshow every week without negative response.

Rebochan: I can understand pulling the natter. I think we should pull the entry anyway though - she's not even close to perfect, which pulls her right out of Sue status. The story was not about her and how perfect and amazing she was, but about the Doctor, which further saves her from Suedom. Then she goes down from a perfectly ordinary bullet and the whole symbolism thing wasn't because she died, it was because of something the Doctor, the star of the show, did. Then her Disney Death wasn't a Deus ex Machina, it was done to establish how much Time Lord DNA she actually had. She's only being considered a Sue because she's female.

  • Okay, I pulled it. We'll see what happens. The point stands.

Ninjacrat: I don't know what category she should go under (who knew a character type could be so thoroughly dissected?), but Jenny definitely outghta be on one of those Sue pages: Introduced from nowhere with a special relation to the lead character, a whole episode spent drooling over how physically competent yet peaceful yet badass yet innocent yet instinctively moral yet sexy yet independant yet caring she is, dies saving the Doctor from a bullet, mourned by everybody, comes back to life for more spinoffs adventures. The whole character reeked of something created by a group of horny 40-something executives trying to be 'hip' to 'the buffy generation'.

Danel: Mary Sue Traits do not make a Mary Sue. She's created by the Applied Phlebotinum of that episode, which is also important to the rest of the plot; most of which, in any case, isn't about her. The episode is far more about the Doctor, and what his reaction might be, than it is about her in any case. She has to be Awesome because, as everyone knows, Awesome is genetic, and without it she'd just seem like a really poor copy. She dies because the Doctor just isn't allowed to have nice things, and having a cheerful relative and fellow Time Lord might start to mend his angst, which is forbidden.

But you raise a point that concerns about these new tropes - for all that, I'm not sure that all Mary Sues fit neatly into one of these boxes, and stretching them will be problematic indeed.

Clerval: Can't it just be a case of Tropes Are Not Bad? Or a Mary Sue that doesn't grate because she's kept just a little to the edge of centre-stage? I rather thought they were dissecting the trope or even experimenting to see if they could make it work. Because she did tick virtually every box to the point that in concept she sounded like something out of a bad fanfic. Yes she had to be "awesome", but she was awesome in a very cheesy, generic, and indeed un-Doctorlike way (sassy, big boobs, backflips, gun). But in execution, she was... okay.

Ninjacrat: Danel- I wasn't meaning to hang her on her traits. There's nothing wrong with being omnicompetent and sexy. Just ask Captain Jack! Or the Doctor. It was the episode's worshipful hands-of-ham attitude towards her that pushed her into Suedom. I'd call the Doctor at the end of "Family of Blood" the same way: having the villains rapturously declaring how powerful he is even as he's striking them down was pushing the boat out a bit far. :)

It seems to me that we really oughta catalogue Sue stories rather than characters. But after one big reorganistion already, I'm sure as hell not suggesting that...

Rebochan: But the story *wasn't* about how awesome she was and I saw no plot-worship of her. The story was about the Doctor and his reactions to her. Remember how rough he was on her for just being a clone? He was perfectly happy to leave her in prison just to be rid of her if Donna hadn't been so insistent on reminding him of his "preserve life" clause. Plus he *really* didn't like her being a soldier because of his own issues with his past. This is the thing, if she were a Sue, these moments would not be about the Doctor, they would be about how amazing and pure Jenny was and how much the Doctor and everyone except the purest of evil loves her and she'd take out both armies on her own, blah blah blah. Mary Sue does not play supporting character.

Clerval: I thought it was kind of two-way Sue-ing. As in, see the Doctor's angst! Waaah! See poor, pretty, hyper-capable Jenny abused for something that's clearly unfair and not her fault! Waah! And he comes round pretty quickly, converted in part by her awesome backflipping, allowing her to dies heroically in the "canon" hero's arms before resurrecting with a ludicrously perky "Hello boys!" before zooming off to have Doctor-ish adventures of her own. I say again, I found her surprisingly tolerable, I'm cautiously optimistic about seeing her again but I just can't see her as not-a-Sue, at least not yet. I know Mary Sue traits don't always make the Sue, but she had SO MANY of those traits and wasn't around long enough to manifest many others. Mary Sue CAN play supporting character, in a way - particularly if she's playing the support to a very very established hero and is suddenly more important to him than anyone else in the room.

Rebochan: First of all, if the Doctor is now a Mary Sue, we had better just call it quits on this trope and declare any lead character in fiction that is not a total useless loser a Mary Sue.

Second, he warmed up to her because Donna convinced him to. But he still didn't treat her like the most important person there. Oh, and she back flipped *once* through a tunnel of lasers. She didn't use amazing super powers after that, nor did she overshadow everyone around her with her awesomeness. And if she's the Doctor's genetic daughter in a series that (especially by the end) was concerned with many different ways of expressing and delving into the concept of regeneration and how it works, how is it Mary Sue like that she used established continuity in her resurrection?

Finally, how can Mary Sue be a supporting character? Mary Sue, by definition, is the center of the universe. A supporting character is not.

Clerval Come on, no one has to save the day with heroic backflipping repeatedly for it to raise an eyebrow, especially not if they're the lovely inserted daughter of the lead and they top it off with sacrificial death. As for "why WOULDN't she resurrect?" well - by not being written to sacrifice herself in the first place, for one. And she didn't even do it in the established way by regenerating into something else, so I'm not even sure quite what the mechanism is supposed to be there. I don't really see how Donna's advocacy makes a difference, he hardly accepted Jenny just to keep Donna happy, it was her continued proof of wonderfulness that did the trick, leading to his concluding she was "too much like me" (the hero of a forty-year-old franchise). And to me, it seemed that she did indeed very much overshadow everyone around her with her awesomeness. And it depends on what you mean by supporting. In the story of "Finding out what's happening on this planet" she played a major, but not the major role. But clearly the story was really "The Doctor gets a daughter", to which she was central by definition.

As for the Doctor, he didn't use to be, but any belief I had that RTD wasn't hellbent on Sueifying him evaporated when he did this. And then this. They turned Jack into a endlessly Christ-posturing Sympathy Sue too, so it's not as if the team hasn't got form.

Rebochan: Donna made the Doctor accept Jenny, not because she was "wonderful", but because he was treating her like shit. Things like making him listening for two hearts, not letting him leave the girl to rot in prison or be executed...But as soon as she backflips (ONCE!), she's a Sue with magical special wonderness? The "too much like me" line was not about how Jenny was his physical and mental equal, but simply her moral outlook punctuated with a strong concept of self-sacrifice that led to her taking a bullet for him. And that wasn't even by her nature alone, it was because she studied the Doctor through her brief life and mimiced him. She was perfectly willing to gun down anyone in her way before, and at the start of the episode, if someone pointed a gun at the Doctor, she would have just shot the interloper or broken his neck, not taken the bullet in the Doctor's place. It's a moment of character development, not a Sueriffic self-sacrifice. Oh yea, and she's practically a redshirt for taking that bullet too. Bad guy points a gun, who's going to eat the bullet? The main characters who are signed on for the entire series, or the new girl who's only signed on for one episode? Mary Sue is not a redshirt.

Finally, Mary Sue is not merely a character that is important to the story she is in (supporting or main). She is the *center of the universe*. Jenny is only a Mary Sue if every single companion in the history of Doctor Who is.

Clerval: The bad guy was written to point the gun to facilitate the heroic sacrifice! They hardly wrote "gun aimed at Doctor" and then thought "Oh no, how shall we get him out of this? Quick, put that random whatshername in the way - it's all I can think of". And backflipping once? she did about twenty in a scene that, again, specifically set up to highlight that particular "awesome" trait. But it's clear we can't agree. I can, sort of, accept story focus as being a disqualifier, but in all other respects it just seems to walk like a duck to me. I certainly don't think all companions are Mary Sues.

Rebochan: I saw it as more of a "Oh no, the Doctor has someone who can make him happy. We need to kill her before that happens!" The Doctor cannot have nice things. That's the point of the new series. Personally, I hope she comes back just because the last two series were almost relentless in beating the tar out of the poor guy.

Drow Lord: In order to avoid giving in to the temptation and posting a Justifying Edit (or, if I'm ever in a bad mood, erasing it completely), I'll voice my complaint here.
  • Tohru Honda from Fruits Basket, as depicted in the anime. She remains eternally cheerful despite her tragic past, and the other members of the Sohma house look to her for guidance, as they all have problems of their own. The manga makes her quite more fleshed out, since her eternally cheerful disposition is actually a mask for her own abandonment issues.

She's an extremely friendly, approachable, and patient person, who tends to help other people get over their own screwed-up pasts. There's another, better trope that describes this. Hell, even if one assumes the fact that she's a Sue anyway (I disagree entirely, but I can see the other side, at least), then she's only a Canon Sue. "Eternal cheerfulness" is her only purity sueish trait. She's also extremely gullible (something Hiro and Shigure both love taking advantage of) and not terribly bright. Not to mention her selflessness is also occasionally treated as double-edged, since she's rather reluctant to "burden" others with her own problems. This is much more prevalent in the manga, of course, but even in the anime, there's the whole "living in a tent" thing, and her insistence that Yuki and Kyo spend New Years with the Sohma family and not worry about her (unspoken: while she stays at home, alone for the first New Years holiday ever, and cries).

...screw it. I'm pulling the entry. It's a cut-and-paste from Canon Sue, anyway, so let's leave it over there.

bluefireglow: Big props to whoever put Lucie Manette here! I was consistently infuriated by her when I had to read A Tale of Two Cities in highschool but never really thought of applying the term Mary Sue to her.

Shay Guy: Thanks! I was actually inspired by my memory of the Cliffs Notes:

Book 2, Chapter 6 commentary: Dickens also makes clear to the reader that Lucie serves as the emotional center of the novel. Earlier in the book, he described her as a “golden thread” running through the Doctor’s life and keeping him sane. Similarly, in this chapter, Dickens states that “everything turned upon her and revolved about her,” suggesting that her sphere of influence extends beyond her father and encompasses all who come in contact with her. Lucie’s effect on people indicates that she is the golden thread running through the entire novel. She possesses some quality that draws people to her and inspires them to be more than they are; for instance, her father has become more than a shoemaking prisoner, and Mr. Lorry has become more than a businessman. Similarly, Darnay and Carton both appear to be courting Lucie, demonstrating a desire to advance their lives from bachelorhood to marriage. As the book progresses, her influence on them will become evident in increasingly dramatic ways.
Making Lucie — a rather two-dimensional character — so central to the book may seem strange, but keep in mind that Dickens created Lucie to be an ideal rather than a real woman. She represents all that is good in humanity — innocence, kindness, faith, and hope — and she serves as a touchstone for other characters to find those qualities within themselves.

Character analysis: Dickens describes Lucie as being beautiful physically and spiritually, and she possesses a gift for bringing out the best qualities of those around her. She is one of the lesser-developed characters in the novel, but she is “the golden thread” that binds many of the characters’ lives together. A reader can best judge Lucie by her actions and influences on other characters rather than by her dialogue, which tends to be melodramatic and full of stock sentimentality. Her dialogue aside, Dickens portrays her as a compassionate, virtuous woman who inspires great love and loyalty in the other characters. For example, Darnay, Carton, and Stryver all court her and envision their futures being made brighter with her as their wife. Additionally, both Mr. Lorry and Miss Pross, who are without families, love Lucie as if she were their daughter and do everything they can to keep her safe. Although Lucie is a flat character, she is an important one. She represents unconditional love and compassion, and Dickens uses her to demonstrate how powerful these qualities can be, even in the face of violence and hatred.

Women in A Tale of Two Cities: As the “golden thread” that binds the lives of Doctor Manette, Mr. Lorry, Darnay, and Carton together [here's the part I recalled!], Lucie is a passive character who influences others through who she is rather than by what she does.

  • May Alcott died quite early in life *and* was the mother of LMA's niece/protegée Louisa aka "Lulu", for whom Alcott wrote Lulu's Library.
But May was still alive when both parts of Little Women were written and published.
Willy Four Eyes: Sorry...calling shenanigans on Ryoko Asakura. Shouldn't the fact that she went crazy and tried to kill Kyon, and Yuki had to subsequently pwn her disqualify her from this trope?

Lale: She disguised herself as this trope.

Drow Lord: That's enough? As someone else pointed out, Mary Sue traits don't necessarily make a Sue, let alone Ryoko's (the most realistic Sue traits possible; seriously, people, it's possible for someone to be popular, beautiful, and caring at the same time). I have serious doubts that she even qualifies as a subversion (which would imply that she was intended to be taken as a Mary Sue). Seriously, she's closer to something else (but doesn't fit that entirely, either).

Pulling it...but if someone else puts it back in, I'll drop it.

Smokie: The problem in my opinion is, there is no other trope that would describe her outside that accurate as Purity Sue. She's not just a Yamato Nadeshiko. She's absolutely perfect in every way. Of course, I agree that a Sue-disguise doesn't make a sue. But has that ever stopped anyone from shoehorning examples into the sue-pages?

Rebochan: She's a Yandere, which covers what you're describing about her.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: cut this and left it here. She may be a Mary Sue, but a Purity Sue shouldn't have an evil vamp mode.
  • The Undead series by Mary Janice Davidson features a stunningly gorgeous Friendly Neighborhood Vampire who not only possess Barbie-like good looks and what the author wants to come across as Buffy-like wit, but is in fact Queen of the Vampires — which means that she doesn't have those pesky drawbacks that make vampires Scary Monsters rather than Super Heroes. By the end of the third book she is unaffected by sunlight, able to toss crosses and holy water around, and is completely so unrelatable, even despite having no other entertainment on a 5-hour car ride.
    • Betsy is somewhat tempered by the fact that even her best friend and her love interest find her dense, self-centered and exasperating (and tell her so, repeatedly). Not to mention Sinclair's Lancer/Baroness kicks her ass with little effort, despite the fact that she'd been possessed by the Vampire Necronomicon and was in full evil vamp mode.

[Much later] Cut and moved this. This isn't a Purity Sue, though it may be a God-Mode Sue.

  • Lacus Clyne had some traits, but these increased exponentially in Gundam SEED Destiny, when just about everyone else suffered Character Derailment too. Not only is she a famous Idol Singer known for her singing and able to take over the reins of a ship with little or no training beforehand (though with her dad being an ex-member of the PLANTS Council, it's likely she already knew at least the basics by book), but she's thought to be based off the wife of the creator (who many accuse of basing Kira Yamato off of himself) but in Destiny she basically ends up as the leader of all the PLANTS at 18 years old. Effectively, Lacus now runs the world.
    • However, Lacus' Sue-ness is deconstructed through Meer Campbell, her Stripperiffic Body Double. Originally a Lacus Fangirl with the voice of an angel, Meer suffers from a pathologically low self-esteem that causes her to want to continue posing as Lacus as well as her fake relationship with Athrun even though she knows that Durandal is wrong, for she fears no one will love her as Meer. The emotional and mental strain causes Meer to go borderline insane and try to seduce Athrun directly and to start claiming she is the real Lacus (and is encouraged by some of her entourage members. What the Hell, Sarah). When Meer does come back to her senses, after Lacus meets up with her and talks her out of it (but not before Meer actually explains herself and gives Lacus a nice call-out for going into retirement when people still needed her), she ends up Taking the Bullet for Lacus and dying, traumatising Lacus out of guilt and pain.

[Much later] Cut and moved this from the interior of an entry. Even if she is more of a Mary Sue, she sounds like a Villain Sue. (Divider added by me.)
  • This troper thinks that Mayo Sakaki from the Eikoden novels and OAV's is more of a Mary Sue than Miaka could ever be; Miaka doesn't get scot free for her flaws (punishments go from running gags to very serious misunderstandings and problems including the death of several of her Seishi and her feud with Yui) and has made very bad decisions that bite her and others in the ass, while Mayo turns almost everyone in the book against Miaka easily, lies repeteadly, "steals" Miaka's unborn baby girl Hikari and is this close to killing both baby and mother by erasing them from existence, almost causes the end of two worlds... and practically doesn't get any punishment.
    • On the other hand, she's not supposed to be the villain of the story, she's the heroine. Which really speaks volumes for Eikoden, to be honest.

Rebochan: Pulled Belldandy - once again, people, there has to be a plot bias towards the character and a necessity that everyone love her. And when your show is called "Ah! My Goddess!", I don't think it makes you a Mary Sue when you're, you know, a freaking goddess.

I really want to pull Wonder Woman too, but I'm holding back because of how much is actually written there. At best, she's a parallel of Superman - some writers put her in realistic terms, and some writers totally screw up and turn her into one of these. Which would actually qualify her as God-Mode Sue, but nevermind.

Cassy: I put the Ah! My Goddess example back, as I really don't get your point. How does Belldandy's identity as a goddess prevent from being a quasi-archetypal Purity Sue who fits the trope description to a T except for her occasional bouts of jealousy? Are goddess characters somehow exempted from being MarySues or, you know, from fitting into tropes? Funny when you consider that Uld and Skuld from the same manga and anime have personalities pretty much unlike Belldandy's and unlike what your idea of a prototypical goddess seems to be. So your argument just seems to indicate that Belldandy's Purity Sue-ness is a Justified Trope due to her being the main goddess character (which I still find a questionable argument but nevermind), and you would have to find a good argument to convince me that she doesn't fit the trope discussed here as a fictional character in a fictional work.

Rebochan: To be a Mary Sue, there has to be an overriding plot bias that makes her the center of the universe. She isn't. Therefore, not a Mary Sue. Having super-special awesome powers can be a Sue trait, but having Sue traits does not make one a Sue. And seriously, do they have to be wrist-slitting psychopaths before they're not considered "too perky"?

Oh, and things like jealousy and dangerous naivety? Those are not "Sue" flaws. "Sue" flaws are being too perfect for this sinful earth. Sue flaws are being so beautiful that they have too much attention. Sue flaws are being so kind that they can never be everywhere they are needed. In other words, Cursed with Awesome to the point of inducing vomiting from the audience.

Orihime: The Movie actually treats Belldandy's supposed "faux flaws" as *real* ones, so that could count as a deconstruction. Added that, but I'm this close to deletwe the whole Belldanyd entry as it hits me as people YET AGAIN using Belldandy's Yamato Nadeshiko traits to BASH her for commiting the crime of not being more of a Tsundere or for daring to be an icon for male fans. (I've met people who say that bullshit about not only Belldandy, but about almost any more traditionally feminine charas in Real Life, so I Am Not Making This Up)

OverMaster: I think your liking for the Yamato Nadeshiko archetype is getting the best of you. We don't bash Belldandy because she isn't a Tsundere, or an icon. We 'bash' her because we honestly think she takes things way too far in the opposite direction. Just deal with it and respect others' opinions before going deleting-happy.

Rebochan: Your opinions on Belldandy are fine, but being a Yamato Nadeshiko doesn't elevate her to Mary Sue status just because you hate her. Deleted again, especially because the character has flaws that immediately disqualify her from the trope.

Rebochan: Lovely, it's turned into an edit war.

Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: removed the Cruel Intentions example because, rather than being heavily subverted Purity Sues, the two leads are VillainProtagonists with good publicity.
  • Massively subverted in Cruel Intentions, in which both the male and female leads enjoyed pristine reputations with authority figures but in reality made their way by wanton sexual manipulation, including with each other (a knowingly nearly incestuous affair). At the end, the boy dies and everyone does go to his funeral...but his girlfriend uses the occasion and his parting gift of a tell-all personal diary to destroy the girl's life.

Ethereal Mutation: Moved this here, since Alice got a better explanation in God-Mode Sue and the other part is just a one sentence, no-context bit of crap.

  • Rebecca became one of these in the Resident Evil novels. Even moreso is Alice from the Resident Evil movies, a genetically enhanced psychic amnesiac whose origins and fate become the center of attention to the exclusion of the ideas and characters of the game series itself. The zombie apocalypse storyline is little more than a backdrop by the second film, which conveniently wraps up the plot of the original Resi games. This frees up the entire third film to deal with Alice. A cynic would suggest that the writer was just using the Resi licence as the chance to get his tedious sci-fi adventure mish-mash on film. We're not cynics, though, so we reckon it probably has more to do with the writer's fiance starring as Alice.

Fast Eddie: Deleted hotlinked image. Please see Administrative Policy. Sorry I can't help with the edit war. Not familiar with 'Ah! My Goddess'.'

Rebochan: The edit war seems to have ended, and I put the image back up after putting it on the tvtropes server so it's no longer hotlinked.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here, though (unfortunately) not before I edited it. There are too many caveats with Sora; and as for the other—does it count as a Sue if it's another character's idealization and it's not in a [[Show Within a Show work within a work?]
  • A deconstruction of the Purity Sue is found in Kaleido Star. Sora Naegino is a charismatic, acrobatics-skilled Genki Girl who's gentle to the point of being an Extreme Doormat sometimes, can see the Lovable Sex Maniac Spirit of the Stage which means she's The Chosen One, is almost always cheerful and thinking of her unchangeable, unyielding dream even in the darkest hour... but (and these "buts" are very important):
    • Her technical abilities aren't on par with the seasoned performers of the Kaleido Stage, having only received gym training at school - so she's often subjected to Training from Hell to overcome her challenges;
    • Has breakdowns that she can't get herself out from with just a smile, and one of them even almost costs Sora her whole career (her Heroic B.S.O.D. during the Circus Festival fiasco);
    • If she gives up or hesitates heavily, she loses the ability to see Fool, meaning the Stage is more far than she thinks;
    • It takes Sora a lot of time to be fully accepted by other performers who mistakenly think of her as either an asskisser, a fluke or to blame for some stuff that happens later.
    • A more by-the-book Purity Sue of sorts can be found in the second season: Leon Oswald's waifish sister, Sophie. However, this is justified: Sophie has roughly the same goals and personality as Sora, and since she's a Dead Little Sister and the only person Leon truly cared for after their parents died, Leon is bound to idealize her. It would've been out of character to do otherwise.

Rebochan: Pulled the Chrono Crusade Mary Magdalene, on account of at best being a Yamato Nadeshiko but missing any actual traits of Suedom.

Starfire: Added Masaya from Tokyo Mew Mew to the list. The entry might be a little too snarky. I just finished the manga and I was a little appalled at just how far the author took it. I so didn't see it coming. Everyone complains about Berry Sue... no one ever gripes about just how bad Masaya is. Which means she must be stratospherically bad. I suppose he could also fall under relationship and he might even have hints of god mode... but I kind of felt that the whole sacrifice myself for the world and to protect the woman I love thing tipped him into the purity category.
  • WALL•E from the film of the same name is a well-written example. Besides having a couple geniune flaws (Being The Fool, his naivte, and being slow on the uptake), he is also quite deep within the confines of the movie not having that much dialouge. The result is a character that the audience has the same reaction too as the characters, namely, they love him.

Lale: Um, how can I put this? That. Is. Not. A. Mary Sue.
Rebochan: Pulled the crazy-long Masaya entry because it was really just someone ranting about a character and a show they don't like than an actual example of a Marty Stu.
Tsura: Wow. Someone edited out my entry about Aeris Gainsborough being a Purity Sue. Is there a reason for that other than fanboy reasons? Because she fits almost all of the requirements for this trope. (Plus a small amount of God-Mode Sue).

Ethereal Mutation: If I recall correctly, it was the three word non-entry. If one want their entry to survive on the list, one has to describe why it belongs on the page (no matter how "Self Explanatory" one thinks it is). And I would probably still contest it anyway because:

  1. Her role in the game is relatively small in the long run. She appears in what? 20% of the scenes at the most? She isn't even a central figure in most of those scenes, either.
  2. She doesn't employ any true Character Derailment.
  3. She doesn't have the plot bending to accommodate her.
  4. She doesn't even appear any more idealized than any other character.

In summary, Last Of Her Kind Yamato Nadeshiko Mysterious Waif is not automatically Mary Sue (regardless what the dubious online "litmus tests" that just draw from the Common Mary Sue Traits or otherwise represent the tropes that the writers of it are sick of claim). One would have better luck trying to pin Cloud down as a Purity Sue than Aeris.

Scud East: ^^ I see what you did there. In fact, couldn't the kind of Mary-Sue definition dispute that fills this discussion page be described as A Problem Like Maria?

Rebochan: Deleted the Princess Aurora entry - because seriously, then we need to classify every single Disney fairy tale heroine as a Mary Sue. They're all pretty, they all have a princely boyfriend, and they all have a Card-Carrying Villain out to get them.

Ethereal Mutation: Fairy Tale characters in general should get a statutory exemption. It just goes with the territory and complaining about them is like complaining about nudity in pornography or gore in slasher films. The whole point behind fairy tales is to be juvenile wish fulfillment in the first place.

Rebochan: Man, why does this section always attract such bad examples? I pulled the Nausicaa one because it made no sense (AND she's not a Sue), and the Disney Princesses entry because none of them are Sues either. Disney wrote them as the straight up fairy tale archetypes they were, which means they were all A) Princesses B) Beautiful C) Attractive to hot princes and D) Have enemies that hate them for possessing A, B, and C.

Oh yea, fairy tales are less about wish fulfillment in their purest form and more about scaring the crap out of children to get them to behave properly. Oh, and turning damn near anything into a metaphor for sex (like...hey, Sleeping Beauty!)
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here.
  • Arnold's sweet, indecisive and cheerful love interest Lila Sawyer from Hey Arnold! technicallyt qualifies, but she seems to be a deliberate poke at the Mary Sue and/or Pollyanna character types, as well as written as a direct foil to the more Tsundere-like Helga Pataki.
    • Since she comes from out of town, is better at everything than everyone else, and causes everyone to hate her for it, she's probably just The Minnesota Fats.

Prfnoff: Moved Tintin to God-Mode Sue.

Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Dang, that's where I'd moved him out of. My logic then was, if he was a God-Mode Sue, why would he need constant Deus Ex Machinas? Oh, well...

Ethereal Mutation: Deus ex Machina is part of the definition of God-Mode Sue. The character doesn't necessarily need to have some vaguely (if that) justified power level manifest itself as some defining character trait (i.e. a magic blessing, gadgets up the wazoo, etc.). Just being Strong as They Need to Be or having a disproportionately huge amount of luck in their efforts is enough.
Ethereal Mutation: I cut this example because it's both highly contested and generally misses the point.

  • Two words: WONDER. WOMAN. Possibly the Ur-example of this trope. Practically everybody in The DCU is portrayed as admiring Diana, adoring her, being inspired by her. (Of course, this is somewhat justified, considering that she was granted the beauty of Aphrodite when she was given life.) And she even outdoes the standard description of this trope, since her purity does extend to being a virgin. And she will probably remain so because, to her fans, no one is good enough to "do the deed" with her. This, of course, hasn't stopped writers from trying to hook her up anyway; Post-Crisis, there have been flirtations with Superman, Batman, and Aquaman, as well as new, non-superhero characters from her own mythos.
    • Wonder Woman's Purity Sue-ness is particularly in effect in Wonder Woman (second series) #170. Lois Lane not only thinks she is too-good-to-be-true, but is also nervous about Wondy's close friendship with Superman, so this issue is all about getting the cynical reporter into her worldwide fan club. Lois follows her for a "typical day" in which, among other deeds, she does the Mother Teresa thing by feeding starving children, petitions President Lex Luthor for a political favor, and even proves how down-to-Earth she can be by showing her skills at a pool parlor.
    • Her Sue-ness is eventually lampshaded with the creation of one Veronica Cale, Diana's own personal Lex Luthor who despises her for being so flawless and sees her as being incapable of genuinely connecting with humanity or caring for their issues because she's so. DAMN. PERFECT.
    • Pretty much the only Purity Sue qualification that Wonder Woman doesn't fit is that she actually does things, and isn't just there to be admired by the other characters. For example, it makes sense to admire someone if they save the world every half hour. Additionally, for any action hero/heroine to be a Purity Sue means that their feminine charms are not enough to fix the world in and of themselves, so it could be argued that Wonder Woman is one of those rare cases when God-Mode Sue and Purity Sue collide, with some minor Tsundere Sue elements sprinkled in.
      • Personally, This Troper thinks that the fact Wonder Woman is on this list and Superman isn't says a lot more about the people who put her here than the character. Wonder Woman has always had a) relationship issues, b) villains who simply would not be moved by her appeals to decency (see Psycho, Dr.; Ares), c) multiple vulnerabilities, and d) a temper of varying levels, but usually shorter than Big Blue's. She's The Cape, and that only makes her a Sue if being a Cape makes you a Mary Sue.

Rebochan: I cut the Dahlia Hawthorne and Iris entries because they completely missed the point of a Mary Sue and ironically gave out what tropes they *actually* fell under in the same entry.
  • I also pulled the Silent Bob entry because...well sheesh, if you're spending half the entry proving he's a balanced character and not a Sue, then why keep him on the Sue page?

Princess Nia of Gurren Lagann is probably the worst offender this troper has ever found. She is totally and completely positive about all things, leading to a sickening naivete. Not to mention that the Beach Episode went out of its way to prove that she is perfect in all skills of every kind. Except some writer noticed an episode later that this would probably disgust the audience, so he threw in a semi-weakness by maker her cooking poisonous (except for the main character, who loves it). Somehow having a minor joke weakness just makes her MORE perfect. All of this is particularly annoying, since Yoko is far hotter, badass, and interesting but Nia forced her out of the plot almost completely.
Rebochan: Pulled Nausicaa, again. And where the hell is the Twincest link coming from?
Rebochan: What happened to the introduction? And the image? They've been hacked up. I mean, maybe the image was too big or something, but if you're going to make a change to so much of the article at once that include removing a ton of content, can we discuss it first?
  • I uploaded the image in a smaller size - was that the problem?

Ethereal Mutation: I made a new page called Mary Sue Classic that has the old stuff. People were taking it at face value and it was sort of trying to force two separate but interrelated things into the same article. Anyway, I'll move the resized picture over there as well.
  • That makes more sense. I can dig up a new picture for this one.

Ethereal Mutation: Fine by me.

Rebochan: New image is go. Fear the sparkles.
Rebochan: I pulled this one:

  • Anne of Green Gables exemplifies this trope in all but passivity, at least in the first book.

Because on top of not being passive, her actions do have consequences and she's also described as being somewhat homely, including by herself. Purity Sue is not allowed to be anything but stunning.

Mouser: Her ugliness comes down to "she's skinny and has red hair." Purity Sue is allowed to be described as homely as long as she's really Suetiful All Along.

Rebochan: I always thought "skinny" by the novel's standards meant it was unattractive by the standards of her time. That or a kind of gangly skinniness that is not normally considered attractive.

Mouser: I seem to recall (it's been a while, okay?) that sufficiently critical eyes judged Anne prettier than the plumper, "flashier" beauties, and I got the impression that the author wanted us to agree with that.

Rebochan: I have to admit it's been just as long since I read it too, and at least part of my mental image of her is influenced by the one in the Akage no Anne anime, where she definitely wasn't drawn as attractively skinny as a child (she was as an adult).
Rebochan: Pulled Alouette, she's been discussed on the God-Mode Sue page before too. Her main problem is that she is not perfect and she has an obedience to the law that brings her to Knight Templar level and the heroine of the game calls her out on it.
Rebochan: I pulled Hitomi, yet again, because the entry is always getting deleted, or getting natter and justifying edits that prove why she's not an example of this. Since it's the same guy adding it over again, yea...pretty obvious it has nothing to do with Suedom and more to Complaining About Characters You Don't Like.

Evil_Tim: And nothing to do with it being a subjective trope, obviously. You can make excuses for any Sue under the sun if you happen to like them. Hitomi's often given as an example Mary Sue: she's pure, has no meaningful negative traits [since everyone either forgives them or finds them charming], isn't blamed for anything she does wrong [including being the direct cause of a massive, devastating war] and the world literally warps around her needs: in particular, she falls for Allen who promptly pulls a character 360 from 'chivalrous' to 'bastard' just so she doesn't look bad for not choosing him. To be exact, she's Akane Kazuki's Mary Sue. Kazuki, Kanzaki. Yeah, subtle it ain't.

Rebochan: Sorry, not like a character doesn't make them a Sue either. Nor does scrubbing them of any character development to repress any traits that makes them *not* a Sue, nor does reassigning story events in order to make negative events revolve around her. And if you seriously thought Allen's turn came out of nowhere just to help Hitomi hook up with the guy, the guy that may I remind you she still doesn't get at the end of the show, you were not at all paying attention to the show. Hitomi also did not cause the war. Pulling it again.

Evil_Tim: She does get him, she just chooses to return home afterward. Again, Hitomi is used as an example of this kind of Mary Sue. This seems to be your personal objection because you like the character, and nothing to do with her Sue status or lack thereof. And she does cause the war, it's established that her readings and visions create what she sees. What's the first thing she sees? Oh yeah, Zaibach attacking Fanelia.

Rebochan: I don't give a crap about Hitomi, it's juSt painfully obvious that you just don't like her and you keep exaggerating or ignoring traits of hers, other characters, and plot points within the story to try and make the claim that she is a Sue. She's not. I personally get tired of people using the Sue pages to rant about characters they don't like that just don't qualify. She's not a Sue.

Unknown Troper: Axed entry on the Ultramarines. They've been that way for their entire existence in the fluff, and being the "epitome of a Space Marine" means you're the epitome of being a psychopathic religious nutjob whose main purpose in life is the complete slaughter of anything vaguely threatening humanity, or isn't human in the first place. That's not what a Purity Sue is.

Be: I guess you're the same Unknown Troper that doesn't think Calgar is a God Moder, to which I say pshaw. I don't disagree that they've been like that since their introduction, but I don't see how that makes it excusable in the first place, and you can't use the ACI to defend not calling them Sues because a) by that tack you could probably cut a good number of all the examples and b) I can just go "sorry mate they're actually the heralds of the emperor's will and the last bastion protecting humanity from the forces of chaos" with the end result that there's fluff to support us both but there's more supporting my standpoint than there is yours.

The Smurfs are specifically stated as being the greatest possible thing a Space Marine could become - even if you're going to whine about what measure a Marine is to begin with, that alone is still a serious Sue quality because everybody looks up to them. They have no flaws whatsoever, in comparison to things like the Blood Angels' Blood Rage, the Imperial Fists missing a couple of organs or the Iron Hands' suspicious ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus, but they've been responsible for some of the Imperium's greatest victories, had a Heroic Sacrifice or two to garnish and their head honcho is currently being depicted as the greatest human warrior in the entire universe.

To summarise - If the Necrons can be thought of as Sues, so too can the Smurfs. They've been pretty bad in the past, but their Sueish qualities have just been ramped up to obscene levels lately. Please don't erase the entry again without coming here first.

Space: For Ruri, could I ask for any other inputs? These don't seem reasonable or legitimate enough to raise her to Purity Sue. Surely, Ruri, the main character and protagonist, can't steal the spotlight in such a short movie since it was more about showing Ruri's growth and disposition. Even though the plot/movie was designed more as a gift for fans, the plot at least justifies the reason for reuniting old crew members. And the old crew members had their share (little to fair) of screen time for nostalgia. Deus ex Machina and a complaint about her not being her old deadpan self aren't really reasons either. Although, I'm having a harder time seeing the DEM...but that's a different subject to discuss about. After awhile, if there are none, I shall pull her entry.

Prfnoff: Nuking Canon Sue examples:
Be: Well, what did you go and do that for? We can't put them in Canon Sue, we can't put them here, where the bloody hell are they supposed to go?

Rebochan: I have restored all of the Canon Sue examples because they were removed without warning or discussion. Please discuss this topic on the Canon Sue Discussion page so there will be consensus.
Decide the fate of the examples here.
Rebochan: The fate of the examples has been decided - they are staying but with much stricter standards. As part of the cleanup process, I pulled any entries that had started gathering justifying edits, and a few that seemed questionable. If you want a contested Sue entry included on the page, justify why here so there can be consensus. If you think a Sue entry on the page now should not be there, cut it, put on discussion, and we'll debate it. End of edit wars.

I also cut a few that are describing the wrong trope and they have since been exported to the correct trope pages.

     The First Cleanup 

Rebochan: I pulled just this one for discussion:

  • Sora from Mahou Tsukai ni Taisetsu na Koto ~Natsu no Sora~ has quite a bit of this. Sure, she suffers from bouts of occasional shyness, but the mere fact that her character design is much prettier that of the rest of the cast should already ring some alarm bells.

It doesn't sell her as a Sue, it just says she is one and she is pretty.

Dentaku: What the heck does this even mean? Why should anyone have to "sell" an example? You're not making any sense. Anyway, I pulled her myself since she's by far not as bad as most of the other examples. She sure has some sue-ness, but generally leans more toward the messiah.

Austin: On the question of whether Jesus should be in God Mode Sue, that's only if you take it too literally. The GMS page says that the Purity Sue's power is their overwhelming specialness, and that's more Jesus' deal than being so much more powerful than everyone else.

Rebochan: He's a god. And explicitly the Messiah. Of course he's special and of course he's omnipotent. We've been through this before - we're not putting mythological figures on the Sue pages because flat characterizations combined with unrealistically incredible uniqueness, perfect romantic partners, and feats covers every single mythological creation in existence.

Austin: Don't assume everyone's read the same discussions you have. I had no awareness that mythology was discouraged in these articles.

Rebochan: Mostly on God-Mode Sue, since mythological figures are generally more known for their awesome powers then their sparkling blue eyes.
Rebochan: Took out Pearl from The Scarlet Letter - she was a complete and utter hellion for most of the book.
Qit el-Remel: Phèdre from the Kushiel series did not have Kaleidoscope Eyes. They were dark brown (obscure terminology aside). I've actually got my doubts on her being a Sue at all (many of her listed "Sue traits" seem to merely reflect her status as a courtesan/spy, and others are debatable) but Your Mileage May Vary.

Rebochan: Feel free to pull the example for discussion if you think it's particularly bad - I wasn't familiar with the work, I just moved that example here from another page.
Rebochan: Fast Eddie, I do not want to get involved in an edit war with you. But we've already had this discussion that Mythological figures can't be Sues. They have no authors to show favoritism (oral tradition) towards, and a lot of them only picked up certain traits after multiple tellings (in other words...Depending on the Writer). They are all flat characters with exaggerated traits. And mainly, if we include them, we need to include every single mythological figure in the human consciousness because they are all a pile of Mary Sue traits. And Common Mary Sue Traits do not make a Sue.

Fast Eddie: Can you direct me to this discussion that "we" had? I see some instances in this discussion where you have tried to lay down this rule, with people arguing against the proposition, but missed where people agreed to it.

Ethereal Mutation: Mythology and oral tradition are the biggest argument against Mary Sue being inherently bad. Anyway, they probably don't really count on the simple basis that they're fluid stories with about a million different variations that all pretty much depend on the storyteller. There's no such thing as canon with them because they exist before anything approximating "official" versions. It would be like saying Rhett Butler is a Marty Stu because of some crappy set of fanfics that cast him as such. There's also the fact that they come from ancient civilizations that just don't really know any better.

Personally, I'm going to just get the Purity Personified page on the ball so people have something neutral they can list the paragons of such in. It seems it's mostly this page that gets the mythological creatures, with some being put on God-Mode Sue (mostly religious texts... I can't imagine listing Jesus as being anything more than a big infraction of the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment).

Rebochan: Actually, Ethereal Mutation, you just made the point about why "Mary Sue" can't be applied to mythological and oral tradition, so it has little bearing on Mary Sue being good or bad. But thanks for phrasing that better than I did. The Purified Personified page would do a lot of good to get some of the less Sue-worthy examples off of here and into a neutral setting.

Rebochan: Oh for crying out loud, you can't just rewrite the article to make your example count. Well, you can. And I'm tired of arguing. Police the damn page yourself, apparently the discussion isn't worth it.
Burnt Paper: Deleted Nia because she doesn't fit our own defintion of Purity Sue:

"Oh, sure, she might smile, offer encouragement, write articles, and other such things, but she gets such a disproportionately positive response that breaks the Willing Suspension Of Disbelief."

"The important underlying element here, however, is that the character doesn't really do anything to truly justify the treatment she receives. Decidedly subjective traits and actions have other characters latch onto her. It's the fact that the other characters are just filling the blanks and elevating her to her superior position of specialness that makes her one of these."

These are the necessary traits of a Sue: breaking suspension of disbelief by having unnatural interactions with other characters. Nia never broke suspension of disbelief nor had any kind of decidedly subjective action latched onto her. She was well-regarded by the gang because she stood for them against Adiane and they discovered she was abandoned by her father. The Gurren Brigade is composed of a bunch of kind-hearted fools. They're not "badasses" like the article implies but rather brutes with good intentions. It's impossible for such a type of personality to not be charmed by someone of a more sophisticated background who has suddenly been thrown away by her previous environment. It's the "lost little puppy" syndrome. No blanks are filled by the rest of the cast.

The traits of Nia that match the Purity Sue description are mere "specification" and are also already described perfectly in Everything's Better with Princesses, White Prince and Mysterious Waif.
Ethereal Mutation: I got around to making Purity Personified, so let's start filtering examples that really belong there over.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here, for now. It belongs in Parody Sue, since I know that the author made Chance the way he is and the way he's perceived on purpose. (There was more ambiguity than he intended, but he wasn't expecting the Peter Sellers interpretation.)

  • A perhaps unintentional parody is in the satire Being There, in which most everyone comes to be fascinated by and even in awe of Chauncey Gardiner, a brilliant-yet-humble socio-political thinker who brings hope and clarity to a complex world with his simple sayings, looks described (in the novel) as a cross between Cary Grant and Ted Kennedy, and elegant manners. No one can dig up a single bad thing about his past; he's a man with nothing to hide...of course, the reader/viewer knows that his real name is Chance The Gardener, who is Exactly What It Says on the Tin, mentally challenged, was isolated from the world until middle-age, picked up what little he knew of it from TV, and happens to look like someone intelligent because of his nice clothes and manners. Thus, the poor guy is passive by nature and while he's a good person at heart, the things the other characters love about him are all based on their preconceptions and misinterpretations of what he says and does, which he is virtually incapable of correcting due to his mental shortcomings.

    • Sapphire Forever: Moved the above to Parody Sue. Thanks.

Sara: Removed Orihime and Colette. Their oh so pure and virtuous ways actually cause them a great deal of trouble. Colette's nearly get her killed.
Read: Removed Nia Teppelin. Not only was Simon angsty for three episodes after she was introduced, everything else in the entry is just empty oversimplification of the events in the show. N Ot to mention they even tried to use a false, completely made-up reference to a "word of god". Ugh.

Shoebox Removed this:

  • Sara Stanley from L. M. Montgomery's The Story Girl was probably intentionally created to be a Mary Sue in order to give her a sense of other-worldliness. She is incredibly charismatic and beautiful, her storytelling abilities can only be described as magical, and the narrator is unrequitedly in love with her. It is a testament to the skill of the author that she is not really all that annoying.
    • Averted in the TV adaptation, where her storytelling abilities and perfection is unceremoniously jettisoned.

First off, yes, she's an incredibly charismatic performer - it's implied that the character eventually grows up to be a famous actress - but Montgomery deliberately balances that out with many mundane imperfections. She's specifically described as not beautiful and in fact is obviously jealous of her really pretty cousin; she's hopelessly undomestic and can't cook (a very big deal in those days); she has a quick temper that leads her into frequent petty quarrels; and while she's noticeably more intelligent and sensitive than her (younger) friends, she's also as realistically gullible and naiive as any child of her time. On top of everything, this troper is not as familiar with the TV series but seems to remember an episode entitled 'The Story Girl Gets Her Name' which specifically references her story-telling ability as a Very Special Trait.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this subpoint and put it here for posterity. Lampshade Hanging a Purity Sue does not make him cease to be one — especially since this character is still meant to be taken dead seriously. Neither does incompetent direction on the part of the author whose avatar the Sue is. Still, it is a lovely point...
  • I wonder if I'm the only person on the planet who thinks this was a Lampshade Hanging. I mean, you have characters (played by competent actors) practically mugging for the camera!

Rebochan: Somebody linked me to this. It's apparently had someone else trying to clean some of it up, but I figured I feel masochistic.

  • Deconstructed and played straight in Kaleido Star. On one hand, Sora Naegino possesses many of the typical traits (sweet, gentle, friendly, naïve to the extreme) but she doesn't get everyone's appreciation and fawning love right from the start and has to work hard for them. On the other, Sophie Oswald plays it up some more, but she's actually dead from before the series started, and her death causes genuine problems to her partner older brother Leon, who becomes a Jerk Ass out of his pain and guilt and is obsessed with finding a replacement of sorts in the stage.

Let's see. Rational plot development. Having to work hard for the praise she earns, just like everyone else. I'm sorry, that's not a Sue. That's a nice person that isn't cut a break and handed the world on a silver platter. You know, a real character! The other definitely isn't, at best Purity Personified. There's a big difference.

Still isn't a Mary Sue. "I hate her!" is amazingly still not a Mary Sue! There's no "Mary Sue" "done right" - a Mary Sue done right is an insufferable pile of horrible writing. She's Purity Personified if she's not a Sue.

Still not a Mary Sue either. As pointed out numerous times, she's a Yandere, full stop. You may also notice that despite being popular (note: popularity is not automatically a qualifier), she's not shown to be particularly skilled at anything.

  • Mary Poppins. Let's hear it for a Sue whom everyone in the audience likes. (Alternatively, let's hear five reasons why a beloved character can't possibly be a Sue.)
    • At least she's usually quite cold/stern while she's bending the laws of the universe to her whim and making everyone love her.
      • Mary Poppins is so universally liked that CAP- one of the most audacious Moral Guardian sites- gave her a perfect score, because what would normally qualify as witchcraft was overruled by "Angelic Symbolism."
      • She's another example of Hollywoodized Sue. In the book, Mary's quite different, being portrayed as a stern, haughty nanny who only opens up on one of her adventures - then denies the whole thing ever happened afterward. She's aloof to anyone who doesn't think she's the end-all, be-all.

Just changed the whole thing to the Magical Nanny trope. Because Mary Poppins is pretty much just like the rest of them. And sorry, no. If a character is actually liked, they're not a Sue because that means they were written well. She's a Magical Nanny and Purity Personified. I realize there's this idea that the only way to not be a Mary Sue is to be a miserable pile of fail...oh wait, sorry. We still have Anti-Sue. My mistake.

  • The way Anakin was talked up The Phantom Menace in parts of the movie (and deleted scenes) certainly comes close to this.

But he isn't at all. Being foretold to be The Messiah isn't a qualifier. And if it was, he'd have been God-Mode Sue anyway if he wasn't the exact opposite of The Messiah.

  • High School Musical has Gabriella Montez. She's smart, she's cute and she has the sweetest giggle ever. In fact, she's so pure of heart things crumble when she leaves for university, prompting boyfriend Troy to tell her she's the only reason East High can work together. She also counts as a Relationship Sue and crosses into a Sympathetic Sue whenever Troy starts looking out for his best interests.

Right, nobody is that many different type of Sues. Gabriella is a poorly written character, but she's really got to be one type. This can probably be reworked into something better.

  • Anne Rice's characters have long had a touch of the Mary Sue about them, but Tarquin Blackwood from Blackwood Farm reached new depths. Young, impossibly and extravagantly rich, heir to an American gothic plantation, sexually precocious, impossibly fascinating to the vampires of the series with a Deep Dark Secret in his past... Basically, all kinds of special.
    • Replace "gothic plantation" with "French castle" and you have Lestat himself. Leave the "gothic plantation" in and you can just as easily describe Louis. There are only a few characters in the entire series that do not have obscene amounts of wealth; the main characters usually call them Lunch.

So...they're rich. That' I mean, I don't read these books, but all it seems to say is "They're rich." And I really have trouble thinking of a vampire like Lestat as pure.

That' Santa Claus is always portrayed. In everything.

  • Ozma in the Oz books also fits this trope, perhaps even more so.

...pray tell how?

  • Doctor Who: Jenny from the eponymous episode "The Doctor's Daughter" qualifies as a canon example. She's incredibly smart, beautiful, perky in personality, a highly-trained and extremely capable soldier and acrobat and manages to rate clean, form-fitting fatigues where the other soldiers have dirty, rugged ones. She effortlessly seduces a male soldier guarding her into allowing her to escape. Of course, she is a genetically-engineered clone soldier, so we might accept that she is going to be pre-programmed with some of these traits, but when we consider that she was cloned from the Doctor himself then she starts to slide into Fan Fic territory. She confirms her Sue status when she manages to overcome her one possible flaw - her blind dedication to the war she has been programmed to fight - and even selflessly throws herself in the path of a laser blast to save the Doctor, only to come back to life once the Doctor and his companions have left, thanks to her handy Time Lord DNA. Oh, and to add a meta-textual layer to her Sueness, Georgia Moffett - the actress who played Jenny - really is the daughter of one of the actors to portray the Doctor, and even dated David Tennant for a while.

Hey ho, Jenny is still not a Sue and it's been done to death a million times. But thanks for playing the "I hate women that come into contact with The Doctor" game.

Now I'm going to smash my head into a wall until I forget all about it.

Rebochan: And one last thing - I should really not have to explain why whining about the President of the United States on this page is poor taste.

Shoebox: I do have to offer some support for the Ozma of Oz example - not only is she the Ruler of Oz, but every time she shows up, Baum goes on and on and on about how beautiful and sweet and dainty and beloved she is, to the point where it basically amounts to older man in love with ideal young creation. There's an entire book, The Road to Oz, that's actually built around all the Ozites and every single character from Baum's other books attending Ozma's super-spectacular birthday party, the like of which the world has never seen. Granted she's a bit more active within the plot that a standard Purity Sue, but not by much. May be more akin to The Wesley, come to think of it.

Rebochan: Oh, she may well be a Sue. The example on hand was just empty. And since I know nothing of the Oz books besides catching wind that some people don't like her, I couldn't add anything. Also, I think a Purity Sue can still be active in the plot - the main issue is that they are given acclaim they haven't earned.
Rebochan: Since somebody added the Oz Santa back and I'm a glutton for punishment, how exactly is Frank Baum's depiction of Santa any different from the numerous other depictions of him? The guy is a saint - literally. He flies on magic reindeer perfectly granting the wishes of children out of the goodness of his heart. When that's the standard depiction, I have a hard time imagining a Purity Sue version of him, but I'm not that familiar with the Oz books. Can someone enlighten me or at least note that in the entry?
The Tambourine Man:I'd like to contest the Aigis entry:
  • Aigis, despite being a machine, fits a lot of the criteria (though justified because she was programmed or built that way). Prettiest girl in the cast, according to the cast themselves? Check (she's the only one whose introduction subplot involves the entire male cast trying to hit on her). Innocence and naivete-based flaws that don't actually cause any problems besides extra cuteness and annoying other female characters? Check. Last of her elite and mysterious kind? Check. Talks to animals? Check. Just mysteriously knows things? Check. Powerful enough to subdue the entire rest of the cast despite being outnumbered seven to one? Check. And everyone stops what they're doing to gather around her and help facilitate her personal subplot because they love her so much, when the rest of the cast has to deal with theirs either on their own or in small, plot-relevant groups? Check. This only gets worse in FES, where she takes over the protagonist's role in the story and everything that made him unique, and she's assigned a special Tarot card for her new Social Link, Aeon, which not only wasn't in the original game, but governs several of the most powerful Personae in the roster. About the only thing she doesn't have is a magically enchanting singing voice and a royal pedigree.

A big part of this trope is that the character is liked far more than anyone else. Yeah, Aigis is well-liked by the rest of the cast, but not more than anyone else. SEES was a very close-knit group. It doesn't matter if her S. Link was good: so were Mitsuru's and Mamoru's. That she gets her own special arcana in FES is a bit outlandish, but she wasn't a link in the original, unlike the other girls in your group, which seems to be a strike against Sue-ness. And all the girls in your party are acknowledged as being pretty, and Akihiko and Junpei don't show any interest in her after finding out she's a robot. And calling the antishadow units "elite and mysterious" doesn't seem accurate: They're mysterious because not much about them was said, and they apparently weren't very elite, since they junked all of them in favor of a private army of small children. I do think she was lacking in characterisation, but I'd hardly say she's a sue.

  • I think what made her Sueish to me was that she doesn't fit in with the rest of the cast, but they talk about her more than every other character; even when things are focusing on another character, there will usually be somebody who talks about Aigis instead of the current goings-on. Her subplot involves the entire cast reassuring her in her humanity over the course of the game, but they don't get that close with each other. Akihiko and Ken (and briefly, Shinji) have their problems that the girls and Junpei don't get involved in (with the exception of Mitsuru, a few times). Fuuka handles her problems with Natsuki mostly alone (until she gets involved in the Dark Hour and it becomes a SEES problem). Yukari and Mitsuru have their own problems that they handle on their own and together. Junpei has friction with Yukari, Akihiko, and the main character, but his major developments are with Chidori and, later and to a much lesser degree, Fuuka. Aigis, on the other hand, has every other cast member surrounding her at her Persona upgrade and talking about how she wants to protect everyone. Yes, SEES is a tight-knit group, but their relationships are of varying types and intensities with each other; Aigis comes in with no previous bonds to anyone and so loves everyone equally, and they come out all at once to love her back. The only person who isn't immediately positively inclined toward her is Yukari, and she eventually comes around. We don't see that kind of universal support for any other character, even if her bonds with them aren't specifically stronger than their strongest relationship with someone else. As to the other anti-Shadow robots; they scrapped them all in favor of an army of children except Aigis. For whatever reason, she was preserved and the others weren't; if she wasn't somehow more special than the rest of the others, why keep her around?
  • And then there's the ending. If casually shoving every other potential love interest aside to be the one whose lap the main character dies in, because the writers have decided that this relationship exists independently of the player's input (and specifically denies the player that input) isn't Sue material, I don't know what is. I know FES changes that, but adding in a Tarot card from an entirely different deck doesn't help her case (especially if you don't do her Social Link, and then the game just dumps her on you anyway); if part of what makes a Sue is how she gets uncomfortably wedged into the cast, well, there you go. It's like having a fourteenth Organization XIII member. More than that, though, is that all of the main cast (particularly the girls) have entirely reasonable flaws and problems because they were written to be the kind of people you might find going to school. Aigis is a magical robot girl and so comes off more like a traditonal sci-fi/fantasy JRPG character, and the game tends to write her as being somehow superior to the flesh-and-blood girls in your party because of it— she's prettier, she's stronger, she's impossibly devoted, she never gets angry or upset that you're dating other girls, she's immune to petty things like the memory loss caused by the avatar of death, she talks to animals, she's not insecure except about her purpose in life (which, when she asserts it, is to generically protect everyone instead of having some specific goal or motivation in mind like everyone else) and so on. She manages to have the least amount of personality, but the most attention paid to her by the story. All of her character traits would be ordinary in an ordinary fantasy game, but in a modern occult-fantasy with realistic, flawed and three-dimensional characters, she's the only one specifically designed to be "generic, but likeable" with no perceptible serious flaws, and later on, eventually the universe just starts warping in around her to make her more important (ie, FES and The Answer).

The Tambourine Man: I see. I admittedly wasn't in the habit of talking to everyone on a regular basis, so I wasn't aware she got that much attention. Should I put the old entry back up, or write a new one?