This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Phoenix Fire: This page appears to have been created through a capitalization error. Should we set it to redirect to Our Souls Are Different?
Earnest: No need, I fixed the original misspelled inbound link, the article itself is still Our Souls Are Different. The Discussion page will (hopefully) be the only remaining misspelled version of the page. [[Later]]. Bah, I couldn't get rid of the false discussion page. Ah well, 'tis a minor thing.
Burai: Edited ...
- 5 Alive and 5 Alive 2, known in America as Short Circuit.
Question: Is there any reason why almost all examples were removed from this page, or has someone just been clumsy? If it's just a mistake, I'm gonna put them back.
Earnest: It seems very crude to be plain Wiki vandalism. Must have been a mistake... or an inept vandal.
Can someone explain the Innocent Innuendo of the title? I really don't get it at all.
Earnest: Same here, and I wrote the title! ^_^;
BritBllt: I was just wondering the same thing...
Johnny E: "Arse'oles"
BritBllt: It's almost impossible to give a short Buffy/Angel entry on this topic, but I did the best I could with it. Reducing the Conversation In The Main Page from this...
- Soulless creatures (demons) on Angel range from despicable (the main enemy of an episode) to harmless/"assimilated" to downright heroic (Lorne). On the other hand, Angel's soulless counterpart Angelus is without exception a depraved loose cannon. The relationship between being good and having a soul is thoroughly murky, overall, but having a soul certainly doesn't hurt one's chances of being good.
- Of course, Angelus is implied to be depraved beyond reason even by the standards of other demons. The fact that the Master (a centuries-old (at least) leader of a vampire cult devoted to destroying the world) referred to him as "the most savage creature I have ever known" and overall seemed to display more humanity than him (actually mourning Darla's death, something it seems Angelus would be unlikely to ever do) is rather telling.
- Whether all varieties of demon are soulless is also never explicitly stated. That vampires have no soul is brought up repeatedly, and some other demons like Mok'tagar are obviously soulless, but others seem to be nothing more than humans with a few odd biological traits added (even in some cases being genetically compatible with humans), and their status is pretty much up in the air. Lorne, for example, probably has a soul.
- Some demons must have souls, otherwise how would you explain Doyle? He's half demon, but it doesn't make sense for him to have half a soul. The Powers That Be are clearly pro-soul, but require their seers to be at least part-demon in order to receive visions.
- The canonical comic taking place after the Angel series finale makes things even murkier. Gunn has become a vampire without a soul, yet is still trying to bring LA back from Hell and wants to prove that you don't need a soul to be a champion. Granted his plan involves turning a whole lot of people into vampires and he does occasionally fly off the handle and kill people, but he's doing pretty good considering several vampires have actively tried to bring Hell to earth.
- It should also be noted that, in the Buffyverse, soulless creatures can be given souls. This happens to Angel every time he is rescued from being Angelus, and Spike had it done on purpose in late Buffy The Vampire Slayer. Then, after he's killed in the Buffy finale, Spike shows up in Angel as what may be the first vampire ghost...
- On Angel they specifically say that he isn't a ghost. Obviously, he resembles one a lot, but they probably mentioned that specifically to avoid questions like "does it make sense for a being with a human soul and demon soul-like thing to become a ghost".
- It's also somewhat questionable whether the soul that Spike recieved is of the same nature as Angel's. Angel has the same soul he had as Liam, his original human identity, but Spike may or may not have the same soul as Edward, if those distinctions even make sense. See here
for a bunch of rumination and speculation on these questions.
- Buffy The Vampire Slayer: Creatures without souls are Always Chaotic Evil. Usually, a demon comes in and parks in the vacated spot.
down to this...
- Vampires in the Buffyverse are typically soulless and Always Chaotic Evil, since the essence of one of the first demons comes in and parks in the vacated spot. Their vampiric personalities are generally twisted parodies of the original person, and never get any closer to goodness than a Noble Demon (and even Noble Demon vampires are very rare). A vampire can, through magic, actually regain a soul, and with it a completely human identity, morality and guilt over their former crimes. Non-human demons may or may not have their own versions of souls, and they can range all the way from Omnicidal Maniacs to Knight in Sour Armor heroes. There are also Half Human Hybrids, and the dialogue suggests that, whatever other metaphysics apply, they do have human souls. Having a soul, however, is no guarantee of morality: as a demon points out, the worst serial killers and tyrants in human history also had souls.
- There are also ghosts in the Buffyverse, and they seem to be disembodied human souls that haven't moved on to the afterlife (more than one episode's dealt with either helping a ghost pass on, or at least come to terms with their current status as a ghost). The recently ensouled vampire Spike also become something like a ghost for a while, but the story made it clear that, despite his intangibility, he wasn't really a ghost, and his condition was the result of magic designed to mimic the effect. Another vampire who indirectly gained a soul before she died, Darla, later appeared as a ghost although, since she was sent as a messenger for the Powers That Be, this was likely the human Darla's soul. For more speculation on the metaphysics of the Buffyverse, see here.
- There are also ghosts in the Buffyverse, and they seem to be disembodied human souls that haven't moved on to the afterlife (more than one episode's dealt with either helping a ghost pass on, or at least come to terms with their current status as a ghost). The recently ensouled vampire Spike also become something like a ghost for a while, but the story made it clear that, despite his intangibility, he wasn't really a ghost, and his condition was the result of magic designed to mimic the effect. Another vampire who indirectly gained a soul before she died, Darla, later appeared as a ghost although, since she was sent as a messenger for the Powers That Be, this was likely the human Darla's soul. For more speculation on the metaphysics of the Buffyverse, see here
Marq FJA: I don't think the whole '"you" are your soul' thing really fits with the current definition of Ghost in the Machine...
